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Violence in Ukraine; ISIS Claims Jordan Airstrike Killed U.S. Hostage

Aired February 6, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: All right. Here we go, breaking news. There's a lot to talk about on this Friday. Thanks for watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Right now, the U.S. and Jordan scrambling for proof of this sensational claim by ISIS just days after the terrorists released the video showing one of Jordan's hostages being burned alive. Here's what we're learning now. ISIS is claiming this 26-year-old, Kayla Mueller, from Prescott, Arizona, an American aide worker they were holding hostage -- they are claiming she has just been killed.

But here's -- this is the twist from ISIS, not killed by the terrorist group, but they say killed by Jordan. ISIS is claiming all of this happened today in Syria in its unofficial capital in the ISIS stronghold of Raqqa. And we have pictures here.

This is what ISIS is claiming as its proof. This is clearly a collapsed bombed-out building which, by the way, proves nothing about this young woman's death. Jordan very quick to respond, calling this a P.R. stunt and an attempt by ISIS to drive a wedge between the coalition, between potentially U.S. and Jordan.

U.S. says it's looking into it, but so far has no evidence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN RICE, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We're obviously very concerned about the reports that have come in, in recent hours. We do not, at the present, have any evidence to corroborate ISIL's claims.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go straight to Jordan, CNN's Atika Shubert.

And, Atika, let me just read something. We have just now gotten this in. We have heard from the Jordanian interior minister. This is from the foreign affairs minister, tweeting this. "So they behead innocent U.K. -- U.S., U.K. and Japan hostages and burn a brave Jordan pilot alive, and now a hostage is killed by an airstrike? Sure. Sick."

Atika, again, Jordan saying this is a P.R. stunt. ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, exactly.

In that tweet right there, you could hear the utter disbelief and frankly what sounds like utter contempt for ISIS has put out. And, I mean, listen, the Jordanian government has been dealing with a terrorist organization that has been lying to them the last month about the Jordanian air pilot that was downed over Raqqa.

They were acting as though they would trade him for a Jordanian prisoner. And it turned out that they killed him weeks ago in the most brutal fashion. As far as Jordan is concerned, there's no reason to believe these claims from ISIS. They make two further points, which is that the hostage apparently, Kayla Mueller, was in the house alone, according to ISIS, and no other people were killed, which seems highly suspicious, obviously.

If she was held against her will, you would expect somebody to be holding her there. And they also point out how does ISIS know that it was specifically a Jordanian plane that hit the target? It's impossible to identify an F-16 fighter jet as it's going overhead hitting a target.

There are many reasons for deep skepticism. Jordan is saying basically, don't believe it. This is a wedge to drive in between members of the coalition.

BALDWIN: All excellent points. Atika Shubert, thank you very much. Definitely casting doubt into this claim from ISIS.

I want you to listen here how the State Department has just now reacted.

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MARIE HARF, SPOKESWOMAN, STATE DEPARTMENT: I cannot confirm those reports in any way. Obviously, people are looking into them, but cannot confirm them.

QUESTION: OK. Do you know if the woman in question is alive still?

HARF: We're just not going to get into specifics about Americans being held overseas for privacy of them, of their families. Obviously, as you can imagine, these are sensitive situations. So, we're just not going to get into those details.

QUESTION: Is it your understanding that the Islamic State was holding an American woman, without identifying whom or...

HARF: We have said that there are a number of Americans being held overseas, including still by the Islamic State. I'm not going to get into further details than that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's talk to CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank and CNN global affairs analyst Kim Dozier. Wow. Where to begin. Kim Dozier, let me just begin with you.

Atika Shubert perfectly ticked through major, major questions as how would ISIS know it was specifically a Jordanian plane, a Jordanian sortie or an airstrike? How is it that she would just be the only person in this one particular home with no guards in a city that presumably would be bombed by these coalition airstrikes?

My question to you would be, would this be a huge miscalculation on behalf of ISIS to say it would drive a wedge between, say, U.S. and Jordan?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I don't think they would able to drive a wedge between the U.S. and Jordan with this. But they recognize this is a great P.R. tool to say a strike back by Jordan had struck at a U.S. citizen.

I have gotten a lot of skeptical responses from U.S. officials. They want -- well, they don't want to see, but they say they need to see some sort of technical evidence or photographic evidence to prove out this claim.

That said, think back to when then Private Bowe Bergdahl was being held in Pakistan and the CIA was considering strikes against the Taliban and al Qaeda there. U.S. and intelligence officials tell me that there were many times they called off strikes just on the possibility that one of the safe houses they were considering hitting might have Bergdahl hidden inside.

And frankly they had a lot better intelligence on the ground in Pakistan than they do right now in Syria. Such a tough time for the family because this could be true.

BALDWIN: That's the thing. We have been talking about lack of intelligence in Syria. Kimberly, stand by.

Paul Cruickshank, the other part of this too is, didn't this all come there ISIS from their -- I don't even know what to call it -- their media wing telling this -- dispensing this claim as truth?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: That's right. This came out of Raqqa, the Raqqa division of ISIS. It was put on Twitter.

BALDWIN: Hello, propaganda.

CRUICKSHANK: Absolutely. They're very good at exploiting social media. This does though appear to be the official ISIS pronouncement on this. This is ISIS' claim. Obviously, a huge amount of skepticism about this for all the reasons we have been talking about for the last few hours.

I think particularly the idea that there would be no guards inside this building, that she would be the only one killed. That sort of beggars belief. She was a high-profile prisoner from their point of view. The idea that they would have left her unguarded really doesn't seem to fly. I think quite likely that they're doing this for propaganda purposes.

We just don't know what her status really is.

BALDWIN: She's been with them a year-and-a-half. How would that then factor into -- this is before really the momentum of ISIS got going. This was -- looking back on my timeline, it was December 2012 when she arrived in the region to help Syrians, August 2013 when she was taken captive, right?

CRUICKSHANK: Yes, a long time ago, and taken captive in Aleppo in the summer of 2013.

ISIS didn't have a very significant presence in Aleppo.

BALDWIN: They didn't?

CRUICKSHANK: Not clear whether it was ISIS themselves who took her prisoner or some kind of gang. We have seen a lot of gangs operating, kidnapping gangs, and then sort of perhaps transfer. We just don't know the details about that yet.

But it seems that after not too many weeks, she was in ISIS captivity and then held all this time. And maybe she was held in Raqqa. We have seen a lot of the other Western hostages being held in and around Raqqa, but far from clear whether she was in this building that was allegedly destroyed earlier today.

BALDWIN: To your point, Kim Dozier, it really would be oftentimes these families ask for proof of life. And we know that was given some time ago. We don't know what's been happening behind the scenes since then. But ultimately the way to prove it would be a proof of death video, a photograph?

DOZIER: Some sort of picture of the woman now passed away. But even then, there would be a doubt as to, did she die at ISIS' hand?

One of the other things that ISIS has learned through some of the recent rescue attempts both inside Syria and watching the one inside Yemen is that they reportedly were moving the hostages around frequently.

And while they didn't want to keep a whole bunch of people with them, they did keep people nearby just in case to fight back any attempted rescuers. So it's two things. Yes, she could have been held in a building all by herself as a safety measure. But you would think that there would be ISIS fighters nearby and therefore casualties because of this.

BALDWIN: And also why Raqqa? Because if this is the ISIS stronghold, the world knows that. That would be one of -- ground zero, if I may, for these airstrikes. Why keep someone who has such a -- is so prized there?

DOZIER: Well, Raqqa is ground zero for also their center of power. I think maybe Paul can weigh in. But if I were trying to think about where I would keep a high-value hostage, I would want to keep them close enough to forces to be able to fight back and not keep her somewhere in the hinterlands where she possibly could maybe even escape.

BALDWIN: You're nodding yes.

CRUICKSHANK: As Kim is saying, it's where -- it's their center of power. Very, very difficult for special forces to go into somewhere like Raqqa.

They do have supporters in the town. They have a tight grip on the town as well. And then we do know as well that some of these other Western hostages were held in and around Raqqa. Jihadi John, that British ISIS fighter who was orchestrating a lot of these videos, he was believed to be based in and around Raqqa as well. That all kind of makes sense.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Ah, OK. Paul Cruickshank and Kimberly Dozier, thank you very much.

Just ahead, more on our breaking news here on CNN, including what this young woman, this American, went through in this year-and-a-half as this hostage, this prisoner of ISIS.

And breaking news in another war, this one spiraling out of control. The U.S. left out of this face-to-face meeting with Vladimir Putin today, as Ukraine says it's stepping up its offensive. We heard shelling from our correspondent we were just speaking with in our last live shot there in Eastern Ukraine. This is CNN's special coverage. Stay with me.

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BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And this is our special coverage here of this young woman. This is Kayla Mueller, 26 years of age, held by ISIS. She was doing work, aid work in Syria. I have seen her on video saying she was standing with the Syrian people when she was taken hostage by this the terror group. And now ISIS is claiming that Kayla Mueller was killed in this bombed- out building. This is their claim, that this happened because of Jordanian airstrikes.

Meanwhile, Jordan's government is saying this is all a P.R. stunt by a terror group. This should not be trusted.

Let's talk to Fawaz Gerges, chair of contemporary Middle East studies at the London School of Economics and author of "The New Middle East: Protest and Revolution in the Arab World."

Fawaz, wonderful having you back on. You say you don't believe a word ISIS says.

FAWAZ GERGES, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: Not even a single word. ISIS has no credibility. ISIS has not given us any evidence that it

behaves in any kind of humane way. I don't buy their narrative. I don't even traffic with their narrative. First of all, the question is not basically who killed this 23-year-old aid worker who went to Syria to help the Syrian people.

They basically kidnapped her in August 2013. They held her against her own will. It's their legal, political and moral responsibility. If she has been killed, as they claim, which I don't buy -- I have not seen evidence -- it is their responsibility. In fact, Brooke, they have threatened several times to kill her.

They have used her in fact as a bargaining tool against the Americans. Why should I believe ISIS today, since ISIS has never said anything that we should basically believe in, in the last three years or so?

BALDWIN: So what is this? This is just ISIS trying to sway public opinion, hoping to drive this wedge as we heard from the Jordan interior minister who isn't buying it, by the way, and saying this is total a P.R. stunt, trying to blame this American death on Jordan. And they're not buying it.

GERGES: You know Brooke, I hope she's not dead. I hope this is a P.R. stunt.

But ISIS craves publicity. They want publicity. They want basically to tell their own narrative. How do they respond to the escalating airstrikes by Jordan? By saying, look, the airstrikes didn't kill anyone, except an American hostage, no one, according to their story. The two hours or so of bombings by the Jordanian air force killed only one American.

First, this is basically a story that -- cannot believe. Secondly, they're trying to say look what Jordan has done. It killed an American. The reality is the Jordanians were not basically bombing on their own. It's all controlled by a central command basically led by the Americans, that every single bombing in Syria and Iraq is under control and watched by Americans. They're trying to appeal to basically their own followers and convince skeptical Muslim public opinion is that, look, Jordan basically killed this American aid worker.

The reality is, I mean, I think people don't believe this stuff anymore. ISIS has shown itself, truly, their own true color by beheading, by killing, by raping, by burying children alive, by burning a captured pilot alive and bragging about it.

So, what do I say? All I have to say is that, first of all, I don't have evidence. Secondly, I don't believe a single word they say. Even if she had been killed by a Jordanian airstrike, even -- let's say so, which I should not be saying this on air -- it is their moral, legal, and political responsibility.

They took this young woman against her own will. She was helping the Syrian people. They're supposedly defending the Syrian people. Look, they're kidnapping and capturing aid workers and journalists who are trying to tell the story about the suffering of the Syrian people.

BALDWIN: I'm so mindful -- hearing you speak, I'm so mindful of King Abdullah's words earlier this week. This is not noble Islam.

Fawaz Gerges, thank you.

Next, violence escalating in Ukraine, so much so we heard shelling during a live report just moments ago, this as President Putin sits down with two world leaders, but the U.S. not at this table. We're live.

Plus, Brian Williams reportedly just addressed colleagues today at NBC News after recanting his Iraq War story, after apologizing, this as another one of his stories as he was in the thick of Hurricane Katrina, this is now coming up scrutiny.

We will tell you exactly what he said ahead here on CNN.

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BALDWIN: The United States was left out of today's high-stakes meeting at Kremlin to persuade Russia's president to reel back in Ukraine and end this bloody conflict that's claimed now more than 5,000 lives.

Vladimir Putin met face to face, in fact is still meeting, I'm told, face to face with German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande, who are expected to propose a brand-new peace plan.

All of this comes as fresh fighting has erupted in the strategic down of Debaltseve, where people there are being escorted to safety by the Ukrainian army. They're just up and having to leave, abandon their homes, escaping here on buses, leaving everything behind, most of this fragile town gone.

Let me bring in our chief security national correspondent, Jim Sciutto, who is there in Kiev.

Jim Sciutto, it is, what, 10:30 just about your time, and I hear they're all, Hollande, Putin, Merkel, still sitting around that table?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Still nose to nose. It's been more than four hours. Certainly lots to discuss. Before she went in, the German chancellor was managing expectations a bit.

Keep in mind who's on either side of that table. The Western powers who accuse Russia not only of breaking peace agreements, but escalating on the ground, particularly in the last few days, and you have a Russian president who is denying the very facts on the ground, denying that there are Russian troops and Russian weapons moving into Ukraine in even greater numbers, something that everyone involved in this crisis knows.

That's a really difficult basis to start peace talks. But they're making their best effort. That said, folks I speak to on this end here in Ukraine, they are managing expectations as well. They're very skeptical of real progress this weekend.

BALDWIN: So the big if depending on whatever progress is made in this meeting, this notion that possibly the U.S. would give lethal aid to Ukraine, how might President Putin respond to that?

SCIUTTO: That's the big question. That's the source of the opposition to sending more arms, even though more U.S. officials seem to be moving in that direction.

That said, German officials, the opposite. The German defense minister said in public today, in his words, under no circumstances would Germany send arms to Ukrainian forces, a disagreement there, assuming they're not playing good cop/bad cop in public, but a disagreement there between key allies Germany and the U.S.

But it's interesting, Brooke. The way it's been described to me, what Russia now has in Eastern Ukraine, not only troops, thousands, hundreds of tons of munitions, new heavy weapons. They have command and control. They have intelligence. They have soldiers, undercover soldiers, and special forces soldiers. They have a military occupation under way there right now.

No one believes that sending some arms to the Ukrainians will beat the Russians. It's just to get a little balance back into the battle, so that the peace talks are credible. That's what the Ukrainians are asking for. But there seems to be still disagreement not only with the Obama administration, but between Western allies on that question.

BALDWIN: Jim Sciutto on the meeting that is still going, hour four, appreciate it in Kiev for us tonight.

Next: back to our breaking news, the claims from ISIS that this airstrike, this Jordanian airstrike, they're being that precise. They're saying, claiming it has killed this young woman, this American hostage, 26-year-old Kayla Mueller. But there's zero proof of that.

How is the White House responding to this news today? And how the U.S. and the CIA will try to confirm this.

You're watching CNN's special live coverage. Stay right here.

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