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CNN NEWSROOM

Jury Visits Hernandez Home for 45 Minutes; ISIS Claims Jordanian Airstrike Killed American Hostage; Obama Asks Congress for Funding to Hit ISIS; ISIS Hostage Killed as Susan Rice Outlines American Strategy; Merkel, Hollande Meet with Putin over Ukraine.

Aired February 6, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: But in this case, this is something that I think helps the defense because the defense wants to show all the memorabilia, Patriots stuff. That's not going to hurt in the case. That's one of the reasons --

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN: But I think a lot of that, Mark, was covered up.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: They had to cover up a lot of football --

(CROSSTALK)

GERAGOS: They asked for it to be covered up.

BALDWIN: What exactly got covered up?

(CROSSTALK)

GERAGOS: Well, the great thing about it is you have to understand people like peering into other people's lives, "Lifestyle of Rich and Famous." Here you've got a first-hand look at it. I don't think it hurts him at all, even with the cover up of items. This is something the defendants wants and will be helpful to the defense.

BALDWIN: Why go to the location of the murder? Why go to this industrial park?

GERAGOS: Why not or why go?

BALDWIN: Why go?

GERAGOS: If you're going to go, I think later on -- I think that's help. One of the things I teach my young lawyers, for instance, is you can't try a case unless you've gone to the scene. I think it's important. I always think it's good for jurors to be there because if you're trying to get across certain things or certain dimensions, it really doesn't come across with pictures or video. You get them out there. They can see for themselves, see dimensions and how far the house is from the location where the murder took place is. Those things are hard to recreate in a sterile courtroom with pictures or just video.

BALDWIN: Is this fairly common practice? They do this a bit in Massachusetts, I'm told.

GERAGOS: Yeah, Massachusetts does it with some regularity. California, it's not rare. We do it frequently. I wouldn't call it common. It's certainly not rare.

BALDWIN: All right. We'll talk to Susan Candiotti who was there for all of this coming up next hour in Massachusetts.

Mark Geragos, thank you, sir.

GERAGOS: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, we're going to take you back to our breaking story here, this claim there ISIS that one of its hostages, this young 26-year-old American aid worker, was killed in a Jordanian airstrike. That is what ISIS is claiming. We're live in Iraq where fighters are taking on ISIS constantly, next.

Also, this is coming as President Obama is getting ready to ask Congress for official approval for this war. One of the questions we wanted answers to is: What happens when they oppose this? That's next.

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BALDWIN: You watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

You're looking at the young woman ISIS claims has been killed. This is Kayla Mueller, an American hostage they have been holding for about two years. They're claiming she's been killed, not by a burning or beheading, but rather a coalition airstrike. The terror group claims she's a casualty of recent bombing in Syria a launched by Jordan. Those strikes in retaliation for the horrendous murder of the Jordanian fighter pilot who was burned alive in a cage. We have pictures, the building ISIS claims she was being held. The Jordanian interior minister saying this is all a P.R. stunt by ISIS that should not be taken seriously.

Phil Black is live in Irbil, northern Iraq, where we know this war has been going on constantly.

Phil, let's begin with the claim by ISIS. Jordan saying this is a P.R. stunt. A lot of skepticism on this, Phil.

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Brooke, and it is right to stand back and look at this with considerable consideration, giving recent events involving is and Jordan. ISIS murdering the pilot, burning him alive. Jordan making a big deal of stepping up airstrikes and retaliation. ISIS's track record for propaganda, a lot of reason for skepticism there. But if you look at the allegation made by ISIS, break it down, there's a lot of room to breathe in. First the allegation it was Jordan. ISIS hasn't explained how it knew it was a Jordanian aircraft. That denies credibility. ISIS says this took place specifically during Friday prayers, the most significant prayer event for Muslims of the week. It could be interpreted as another attempt by suggesting this Muslim nation, Jordan, was trying to kill other Muslims during this special time. The claim that ISIS makes in seeing that no other ISIS members were killed in this strike, convenient certainly, but very much ties into what has been a constant theme of ISIS propaganda. The fact they claim the victim is an American woman. That could be seen reasonably, as the Jordanian government has pointed out, as an attempt to drive a wedge in the international coalition, specifically between Jordan and the United States.

BALDWIN: Phil Black, in Irbil, thank you.

On this claim from ISIS, still unconfirmed, comes as the President Obama's national security advisor, Susan Rice, outlined the national security strategy.

We bring in Michael O'Hanlon, with the Brookings Institution, the think tank where Rice has just made her remarks.

Nice to have you on.

MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Nice to be with you. Thank you.

BALDWIN: Before we talk about what Susan Rice said, let me begin with funding the battle against ISIS. President Obama is asking Congress for approval to keep hitting ISIS. At first, what exactly would Congress need to sign off on? Where do you think the political battle lines will be drawn?

O'HANLON: In terms of organizations, to be honest, the Congress doesn't need to do anything. President Obama still has the original 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force that goes back to the immediate aftermath of 9/11. He doesn't like using that. He thinks it's time to have more tightly construed, less open-ended. He was a critic of how that resolution and the broader climate around that period of time led to the invasion of Iraq, which he saw as disconnected from 9/11. He doesn't want to leave legislation still operative that allow that to happen again. He's not comfortable with the authorizations he already has. But, in fact, that's what he's been using to deal with Iraq and Syria crisis of the last eight or nine months. So that part of it doesn't require congressional action at any moment in time. It's the authorization of funding, additional money he'll need. He's got money for this year. It's next year's debate, based on the budget request offered to Congress this week. That's the essential requirement. He has nine months for Congress to work on that.

BALDWIN: OK. So with the funding then specifically, and let's look ahead to this potential fight over dollar and cents here. How do you think that line will be drawn. Will he then continue on airstrikes as he waits for that sort of approval?

O'HANLON: I think that's not going to be an issue, frankly. The country is rallied around this particular operation because, obviously, ISIS is so horrendous. The money is not huge. The risks to Americans is not huge. Pressure is probably going to be in the direction of whether he's doing enough and whether he should be doing more.

In any event, he's got several billion he can use to wage operations from now to September 30th which, as you know, is when fiscal year 2015 ends. In theory, he would need new monies October 1st and beyond. That's eight months and he's got time for that budget debate.

BALDWIN: Let's pull sound from Susan Rice talking about the political climate. Here she was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: We can not afford to be buffeted by alarmism and the nearly instantaneous news cycle. We must continue to do the hard work of leading in a complex and rapidly evolving world, of seizing opportunities and of winning the future for our children. Strong and sustained American leadership remains as essential as ever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Michael, I guess my question out of that is more on strategy. We've heard so many different top people in the administration saying our goal is dismantle and destroy ISIS. Have they made the strategy clear?

O'HANLON: Well, I think that, first of all, Dr. Rice did a good job on explaining the strategy for most part of the world. When you apply it to Syria, it's not the particularly compelling to most people that we do have a plausible path to success. For Iraq, I think we do. It may or may not work. It's plausible. You know how you may have to adjust along the way if it doesn't show promise. We have the government to work with. The government has an army we're helping rebuilt. At some point, they'll be ready to go attack ISIS in north western part of Iraq. In Syria, there's no credible force we're working with that's got any chance of taking on either ISIS or President Assad. I don't think Dr. Rice broke new ground on that particular issue today. Clearly, it's going to be one that, Ash Carter, the defense nominee, and others continue to get grilled about on Capitol Hill, and where we continue to have a vigorous debate. There may not be a good, plausible, serious strategy within reach now. But I think we're going to have to do more as a nation to deal with ISIS. The current help for the opposition in Syria, so-called moderate opposition, is way too little and late to make much of a difference I'm afraid.

BALDWIN: Michael O'Hanlon, thank you.

O'HANLON: My pleasure.

BALDWIN: Also, breaking, this grave escalation of violence in Ukraine. As leaders of France and Germany sit down with Vladimir Putin, someone wasn't at that meeting. We'll have that for you. And how bad it's getting for people living in that country in the midst of war, next.

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BALDWIN: Right now, Russia's president is face to face in the Kremlin with not just one but two powerful leaders pressuring him to reel back in Ukraine. Vladimir Putin expected to hear a peace proposal from German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande. We're waiting to hear how Putin may respond.

But all of this is the backdrop as fresh fighting erupted in the town. People there are escorted to safety by the Ukrainian army. People that live in this area are forced to abandon their homes, escaping here by bus, leaving everything they own behind. They want to escape the shelling that devastated neighborhoods in recent days.

Let's go to our senior international correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, in Ukraine.

Nick, before we talk about these fresh clashes, let me ask you about this meeting, why Angela Merkel could help here, her leverage, and also why the U.S. president, Secretary Kerry wouldn't be there.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The issue has been the Kremlin are trying to phrase this whole conflict. They see themselves being in pressure on NATO from borders. Vladimir Putin recently calling the Ukrainian army NATO's foreign legion. That's a personal animosity he has for the outcome of Cold War. That's directed at Washington. Perhaps having John Kerry at that table would not help the Kremlin with their narrative. Having French and Germans may ease things through. Angela Merkel was there where Putin served time in the KGB. That may enable something to come from the meeting.

But they have a difficult task in front of them. Kiev has made it clear they didn't want the integrity of Ukraine to be changed. Where I'm standing in Donetsk, the self-proclaimed People's Republican, it seems it's heading to be part of Russia.

The backdrop for me talking to you now is consistent mortars and artillery. Slightly further from where we are, but we've been here a couple of weeks and this is closes and consistent. Not the noise if people anticipate peace to break out shortly -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: The big "if" here, as we've been talking about, the U.S. role, the potential of U.S. providing lethal arms to Ukraine. It's impossible to climb into the mind of someone like Vladimir Putin. Has there been indication how he would respond to something like that?

PATON WALSH: To some degree, it plays to his favor. He's tried to frame this as a fight of Russia protecting itself from encroaching NATO. That's a by-word for the U.S. president. So the U.S. arming the Ukrainian military, that would feed to his argument that you'll hear on Russian state TV inside Russia. But there's a practical element, too. How fast could the help to the Ukrainian army be in place? It could take months for the anti-aircraft material. They'll be in place and troops trained to use it. The issue is it more about providing another stick at the negotiating table to try to explain to the Kremlin, look, we do have a red line here. A dangerous phrase for the Obama administration to use after use in Syria.

I should tell you, Brooke, as I'm talking, the consistent thudding of shelling behind me is remarkable. This town emptied out. A real sense of anticipation if these talks fail, things could get worse -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: Nick, let me stay on this, as I keep this conversation is going. You're looking behind you and hearing live shots. People are leaving with anything they can carry to leave their homes. What's the worse you're seen?

PATON WALSH: The issue is the towns caught in the crossfire. We've seen on this side of the lines, the separatist side, how the stray shell probably fired from the Ukrainian military -- you can never tell where it came from. Both blame each other -- that seemed to hit last Friday. Killed five and two nearby as well, simply people waiting for civilian aid. Ukraine denies that and blames separatist when it happens. It's tough to suggest separatists are shelling their own areas. That's a tough argument to make. Plus, we see the Ukrainian-held areas hit by what must by separatist armory. We were there Saturday. People huddled under ground in a basement running out of food. That building had the only heat and electricity. It was hit last Sunday by shelling. Nearly 700 evacuated today.

It's the people caught in the middle who are increasingly furious at the failure of politicians to find a solution. Brooke, it's consistent here on the outskirts of Donetsk. That's how people live their daily lives. Some walk around the streets calmly. Others are trying to leave. Some simply can't leave. They haven't got the money or are tied to something that makes them stay in their homes. Often, the poorest trapped in the middle -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: The pictures of these towns, the airport you reported from, some of these buildings. It's pretty stunning what you've been able to provide to us.

Nick Paton Walsh, phenomenal reporting out of Ukraine. Thank you so much.

And I spoke to one of Putin's most famous enemies, the man that went to war with Russia six years ago. Putin sent troops to Georgia, wanting to reclaim parts of the former Soviet Republic. Georgia's leader held strong until Putin backed down. Now the former president of Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili, says Putin will not be swayed by diplomatic reasoning. We spoke yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKHEIL SAAKASHVILI, FORMER PRESIDENT OF GEORGIA: This guy only understands sheer force. This is not the guy who understands good will or diplomacy. He couldn't care less. He will be cynical. Anybody who's dealing with him should know that he's not somebody to rely on for these peaceful talks. He is somebody who clearly understands the language for more and more toughness when the other side is willing to be tough. Except that until now, few people were willing to be tough. It was all left to Ukrainians to stand up for themselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You want to see the rest of that interview -- it's fascinating -- go to CNN.com.

Next, breaking news on ISIS claims an American hostage, this young woman, was killed because of an airstrike by Jordan. Can the claim be trusted? What we're hearing from Jordan and more about who this young woman is, a prisoner of ISIS for more than a year and a half. We're there live after this.

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