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CNN TONIGHT

Jenner, A New Kind of Champion; Jurors Will Tour Key Sites on Aaron Hernandez Trial

Aired February 5, 2015 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT, I'm Don Lemon. And this is a story making headlines tonight.

Bruce Jenner's journey. From the gold medal winner to a new kind of champion. On the cover of the latest issue of "People" magazine, tonight why Nick Kristof of the "New York Times" says Jenner should be back on the Wheaties box while getting ready to become a role model for a whole new generation.

Plus, is history repeating itself in the Aaron Hernandez murder trial? A jury in Massachusetts about to visit the victim's house, the crime scene and the home of the former NFL star. Just like the O.J. Simpson trial. Our judges are going to weigh in on that.

Plus Jordan carrying out massive airstrikes on ISIS today. Retaliation for the brutal execution of Jordan's fighter pilot burned alive by ISIS.

And in Washington, President Obama planning to ask Congress for new authority to use military force. Will rage against ISIS turn the tide in the war against them?

We've got a whole lot to get to tonight, but I want to begin with Bruce Jenner's journey. I want you to take a look at the cover of the latest issue of "People" magazine. It is out tomorrow, reporting that the gold medal winner is finally happy. And in today's "New York Times," Nick Kristof writes about Jenner's courage, saying, "If the aim is to educate us, bravo."

Joining me now, Nick Kristof.

So you just came out with the column, "Bruce Jenner's Courage" in the "New York Times."

NICHOLAS KRISTOF, COLUMNIST, NEW YORK TIMES: Yes.

LEMON: What do you think?

KRISTOF: Well, you know, I mean, he was my childhood hero. I was a track runner and -- a really bad one. And we all wanted to be Bruce Jenner. And I haven't really thought about him for a long time, but --

LEMON: He's transitioning from a man to a woman. KRISTOF: Be a transgender woman.

LEMON: To a transgender woman. Yes.

KRISTOF: Yes. To coming out as a transgender woman. And, you know, I think that's so important in a sense. Because there's no community in America more marginalized than the transgender community, more subject to mockery, to bullying, to discrimination in every form, and I think that's partly because only about 0.3 percent of Americans are transgender, and we don't put a face on it.

LEMON: (INAUDIBLE).

KRISTOF: Now we have Bruce Jenner's. Yes. Yes.

LEMON: How so?

KRISTOF: This has already been in the works. We're beginning to have TV shows about it, beginning to have -- President Obama, for the first time in the State of the Union address, referred to transgender people, but to have a sport icon like Bruce Jenner make this transition and come out as a transgender woman, I think is a real moment that maybe something that people can begin to identify with and dissolve a little bit of that prejudice.

LEMON: I think we're around the same age, maybe a few years apart. Growing up, Bruce Jenner was my idol. So was Mark Spitz. My sister was in love with both of them.

KRISTOF: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Right?

KRISTOF: Yes.

LEMON: Winning several gold medals and then now this -- on the cover of the Wheaties box, one might be wondering, has he been dealing with this his entire life or is this something later in life that happened?

KRISTOF: I think one's gender identity is something that is pretty deep inside. And, you know, there is this cynical view that this out to sell a TV show, I think that there is so much mockery and hostility toward people who were transgender. I have a hard time imagining anybody doing this except because they're trying to at some point in their life return to who they authentically are.

LEMON: When you mentioned that, if it's to sell television programs or what have you, it's -- he's supposed to chronicle it. There are reports that chronicle his transition on E! Bruce Jenner chronicled the transition on E! Network, a TV interview with Diane Sawyer that has been announced. "People" magazine also reporting that his family -- he's told family members. They're supportive. This is what his stepdaughter, Kim Kardashian, one of the most famous people in the -- in the country now. KRISTOF: Famous for being famous.

LEMON: Famous for being famous. Here's what she told "Entertainment Tonight."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIM KARDASHIAN, BRUCE JENNER'S STEPDAUGHTER: I think that Bruce is very happy, the happiest I've ever seen him. I mean, you know our dad. So we support him no matter what. And I think when the time is right, he'll talk about whatever he wants to talk about, you know. I think it's just his story to talk about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Also, you report in your column that his mother is quoted doing -- she spoke to a news organization, saying that she's a very proud of her son. She could not be prouder.

KRISTOF: More proud of him now than when he won that Olympic gold in 1976. And you know, that's -- that makes it a lot easier for him to have that family support, 57 percent of transgender people in this country are rejected by their families.

LEMON: Yes.

KRISTOF: And, you know.

LEMON: You talked about, as you said, according to the Human Rights Campaign, three transgender people have already been murdered, that's this year in the United States, and the story of Layla Alcorn, the 17- year-old transgender teen, made headlines after she killed herself, and then last year, there were a number of transgender people who were killed because of --

KRISTOF: Right.

LEMON: Discrimination.

KRISTOF: Yes. We think of the Matthew Shepherd case where, you know, a young gay man in Wyoming who was murdered apparently for being gay. That still happens all the time to people who are transgender. Especially transgender women of color. And in that -- and then workplace discrimination, more than half of transgendered people are discriminated in the workplace. Forty-one percent reported that they have considered -- attempted suicide.

So in that context to have somebody like Bruce Jenner come out I think is really important for that community as a role model and maybe can help make this a teachable moment for all of us.

LEMON: So people who are -- in the middle of the country, right, because people think the coasts are more liberal.

KRISTOF: Yes. LEMON: And we deal with it. In the middle of the country, when the

president of the United States, as you mentioned, when the president says the word transgender in the State of the Union, it's important. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: To defend free speech and advocate for political prisoners and condemn the persecution of women or religious minorities or people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, we do these things not only because they are the right thing to do, but because ultimately they will make us safer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Transgender and lesbian, those words have never been used in a State of the Union, that's why this is important, one reason, this is progress.

KRISTOF: Yes. And you know, essentially the gay rights began to happen because all a sudden Americans realized that their brother or cousin or work buddy was gay. And it became something real. Seventy percent of Americans now have a friend who is gay. Only 10 percent have a friend who is transgender.

Bruce Jenner is a little bit of a bridge perhaps, a way to humanize this category of people to create some empathy for those who are transgender Americans.

LEMON: Having said that, when you mention the statistics, did you struggle with writing the story?

KRISTOF: I struggled for a couple of reasons. I mean, first of all, this is Bruce Jenner's story, and Bruce Jenner has not come out formally and declare it, so what business is it of mine to jump in and write it? And, you know, this is also something that is intensely personal. I wondered if it's really my business to intrude. And it seemed to me that this is something that Jenner is doing not just as a personal journey, but also trying to educate the country.

And from that point of view, that's why I think he should be back on the Wheaties box.

LEMON: Yes. And you not only wrote about it, but it was also written about in the style section of "The New York Times" as well.

I want you to standby, OK, Nick, because I want your help after this interview.

I want to bring in now Zoey Tur, special correspondent for "Inside Edition" and the first transgender TV news reporter.

Thank you, Zoey, for coming on. I'm just -- I'm so happy and grateful to have you here. I'm just going to ask you a very broad question. What do you think of this? ZOEY TUR, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": I think this is a

brain anomaly, and Bruce Jenner has been transitioning for at least 20-something years. I mean, I met him 20 years ago and he should come -- or she should come out and talk about it now.

We have a 42 percent suicide attempt rate, we need Bruce Jenner to come out, and stand up and talk about it. It's like no big deal. And we need the world's greatest athlete, but unfortunately, you know, with the timing and being part of the Kardashians, this is -- a lot of people are suspicious.

And, you know, people ask me all the time, do I really believe it, or is this really -- is this some sort of hoax? Are they trying to sell another tabloid, you know, show on television? And the reality is that this is a very serious matter, as your guest mentioned, and we need Jenner to stand up and be the hero that she is.

LEMON: Do you think that the overall message and the importance of this is being overshadowed by maybe the publicity of it? And maybe some would think the circus-like atmosphere of it? Is that what you're trying to say?

TUR: I am saying that. You know, the connection with the Kardashians is a big circus. Jenner has been transitioning publicly for over 20 years with all of the surgeries. Jenner is driving around the streets in stiletto shoes and dressing as a female, and we're all supposed to not notice this. You know. And it's like the "Emperor's New Clothes."

Look, I'm out, you know. I got called by TMZ and 28 million people knew I was transgender an hour later. And I decided to participate and tell my story and tell it to anyone that was willing to listen because it was -- you know, I wanted to control my narrative. I didn't want to be a national joke.

And it's been difficult, transitioning is horribly difficult, but -- you know, you give up everything and anything to get everything. It's been a very positive experience. And if you can see the messages I get, you know, I have like over 3,000 messages from people that are transgender, lesbian, gay, bisexual, people that are illegal aliens, people that have secrets, and they say you've helped save my life.

LEMON: Yes.

TUR: Because I look at you, and you give me confidence, you make me feel hopeful. And I think Jenner can be doing that today because like every day people are committing suicide. Just this week, I had one person I know commit suicide and I had another attempt suicide. So, you know, enough. Come out and speak up, we need you.

LEMON: And you -- listen, I think that what is wonderful about you, Zoey, is that you allow room in the conversation for people to make mistakes. Right?

TUR: Of course.

LEMON: And --

TUR: I make them, too. You know, this is confusing to me, you know, Don. And I love the fact that you have me on TV and we're talking about this, thank you so much. You're saving lives. If you make a -- mistake with a pronoun or, you know, so what, you know? I make them, too.

LEMON: Yes.

TUR: You know, I'm getting used to this, too, and I think it's -- you've got to have a sense of humor.

LEMON: Yes. And now you are the first -- I believe you are the first transgender -- television's first transgender reporter, now you're a special correspondent for "Inside Edition." Congratulations but let's look at some of your work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUR: The last time I was at the controls of a helicopter, I was a man. My name was Bob Tur. They called me Chopper Bob. Now I'm a woman. My name is Zoey Tur.

Everything is just wonderful. It's great to be at the controls of a helicopter again. Especially as a female.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: A famed news chopper pilot you are. You became -- you came out as Zoey. You were Chopper Bob before that. You are self- described alpha male. You covered the O.J. Simpson Bronco chase, the L.A. riots. Did you ever imagine in a million years that you would have this new opportunity?

TUR: No, I was told that I'd never work again, that once I came out, that was it. And given that I couldn't find a transgender television news reporter, we had a couple of people we had, Elaine in Colorado, who does a television entertainment talk show in Colorado, but in terms of mainstream news media people, zero.

So I was told that I was done. And I believed it for quite a while. And it wasn't until I had enough confidence that I reached out to Charles Laukman and "Inside Edition." I had a three-minute conversation. He hired me on the spot. So, you know, I think we're ready for it. This is 2015 with the -- with "Transparent" winning two Golden Globes, and the president of the United States mentioning transgender in the State of the Union?

And Eric Holder's work in 2014 giving us workplace protection. This is wonderful. It's like you could be hopeful now. And if you are transgender, come out.

LEMON: Yes.

TUR: And it's -- like Harvey Milk said, with the gays and lesbians, if you come out, and you come out to your family, it's hard to be -- it's hard to be hated. It's hard to -- it's hard to hate this community. So if you are transgender, know that these possibilities exist. And as more of us come out, the better our lives are going to be.

LEMON: Zoey, I think you're fantastic, and I -- will you promise me to come back, and we'll have a much longer conversation about this? I think this is a really important conversation and I do think this is a cultural shift when it comes to transgender rights in this country.

So thank you and congratulations.

TUR: I will, and you're a good looking, guy.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Well, thank you very much. Not bad yourself.

Nick Kristof, what's your reaction?

KRISTOF: You know, it's not my role to advise Bruce Jenner on how to come out --

LEMON: And isn't Zoey fantastic? She's a great --

(CROSSTALK)

KRISTOF: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's great that it's being aired here.

LEMON: Yes.

KRISTOF: You know, but I guess I would push back a little -- a little bit of the idea that this is sort of a big circus. And I sort of see that but on the other hand I think that there is a chance here using reality TV, using television interviews to come into American living rooms and explore this really complicated, bewildering process, that I think leaves a lot of people in America feeling kind of overwhelmed.

And, you know, this is a moment that maybe can change minds and --

LEMON: Yes.

KRISTOF: Create a little bit more tolerance.

LEMON: Thank you. What I should have said to her is she's a good looking woman as well.

KRISTOF: Yes.

LEMON: And I appreciate the compliment.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

KRISTOF: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you, Zoey Tur. And thank you very much, Nick Kristof. When we come right back, another story making headlines tonight. An

ex-football star on trial for murder. No, not O.J. Simpson, Aaron Hernandez. But there are plenty of parallels between the two cases including the jury visiting the scene of the crime. Our judges are here to break it all down for us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Tomorrow is an important day for jurors in the trial of Aaron Hernandez, a former NFL star charged with murder. They'll leave the courtroom and tour a number of key sites connected to the case including Hernandez's home. But today in court testimony on the police investigation of the crime scene.

CNN's Susan Candiotti reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Not long after a jogger finds the bullet riddled body of Odin Lloyd in an industrial park in June 2013, police find evidence including --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two shell casings in a small ditch in the ground just above the victim's head.

CANDIOTTI: Also car keys, a white towel, tire tracks, a baseball cap, $64 in cash in Lloyd's pocket and a blunt near his body. Prosecutor say it has DNA matching both Lloyd and former New England Patriot tight end Aaron Hernandez.

To protect evidence from an approaching rainstorm, police scoop up some things and lay down tarps covering the body, footprints and tire tracks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't want them blowing away. And secondly we certainly don't want them getting wet.

CANDIOTTI: But the defense pounces on police, suggesting sloppiness, picking up some evidence before pin-pointing it.

JAMIE SULTAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You understood that there could be DNA on that towel, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

SULTAN: And you understood there could be hair on that towel that might be significant, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

SULTAN: Well, nobody measured it, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody measured it. No.

SULTAN: You eyeballed it, is that what you're telling us?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's exactly what I'm telling you. Yes.

CANDIOTTI: The defense attacks police for putting two shell casings inside the same evidence bag. Contrary to draining.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recall what, if anything, you said about whether they were placed into separate bags, Lieutenant?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't recall.

CANDIOTTI: But the defense shows him the report indicating the shell casings were not separated. Prosecutors argue it doesn't matter. Both casings were found in the same ditch.

The murder weapon that fired them is still missing. Jurors will get a close-up look at the crime scene Friday and victim Odin Lloyd's house. They'll also get an inside look at the former football star's home.

Prosecutors tell the judge they're worried about a possible O.J. moment. During his trial, O.J.'s lawyer showed a house filled with family photos. Those jurors were later told ignore them.

This time when prosecutors balk, Hernandez's lawyers agreed to remove eight family and baby photos and cover a new piece of furniture displaying other items. In a tense courtroom, one light moment. The defense grilling a witness about investigating tire tracks makes a joke about the latest scandal facing the Patriots, deflate-gate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever receive training on footballs deflation device?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: And that jury tour is going to take place tomorrow morning. And it is going to be cold.. The forecast calling for about zero degrees. The judge telling the jury, you guys better dress warmly, make sure you wear boots and this bus tour is going to take, Don, about four and a half hours.

I'll be the TV pool reporter on it so I'll be up close and personal. However, we are under strict orders that we cannot take any pictures of the jurors, and Don, we have to stay away, stay back about 25 yards from them.

LEMON: We apologize for the issue with Susan Candiotti's mike. I'm not sure if it's wind or if there's a technical problem going on.

But, Susan, I want to ask you this and hopefully it will -- your microphone will work. The defense grilled the police today. They tried to show that they were sloppy in their handling of the evidence. Were they successful with this, Susan?

CANDIOTTI: Well, you know, it's hard to read tea leaves, of course, in how the jury might look at this, but here's what happened, you know, the prosecution made the point there was a big storm about an hour after they arrived on the scene and found Odin Lloyd's body, and so because the big rains were coming, they had to, they said, pick up some of the evidence and put it aside and cover other evidence.

But the defense said, now wait a minute, you're not supposed to do that. You should have measured each and every thing that in the end the prosecution said, look, it might have washed away if we didn't pick up some of it.

LEMON: Yes. A lot going on.

Susan Candiotti, thank you very much.

Are the jurors really going to learn anything about this case by touring Aaron Hernandez's house? I'm going to ask our judges. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back. We're going to be dig a little deeper now into Aaron Hernandez's murder trial with our judges.

Joining me now is Judge Larry Seidlin who presided over the Anna Nicole Smith Case, and Judge Glenda Hatchett, host of the "Judge Hatchett Show" and a consultant to the NBA and NFL.

Hello, and thanks for joining us both of you.

Judge Hatchett, tomorrow jurors are going to go on a tour of the home of Aaron Hernandez. Even though this is a common practice in Massachusetts, murder cases -- would you have allowed a tour into Hernandez's home if it were up to you?

JUDGE GLENDA HATCHET, HOST, "THE GLENDA HATCHET SHOW": Absolutely. I think it's a great strategy. I think the jurors need to see it. I particularly think, Don, that they need to see and understand the proximity. You can say that his house was so far away or close to where the body was found of the victim, but to actually see that proximity, to see the cell tower, to understand.

Now what I don't understand in the strategy in this case, and why the judge allowed it is why they are going to the victim's home. I know that they need to go there, they need to see where the videotape. They've seen videotaped clips.

LEMON: OK.

HATCHETT: Where was he standing, but I don't understand going to the victim's home on this site tour.

LEMON: I think Judge Seidlin disagrees with you on the tour of Aaron Hernandez's home -- Judge?

HATCHETT: OK. All right. Makes it interesting.

LARRY SEIDLIN, PRESIDED OVER THE ANNA NICOLE SMITH CASE: Well, there is a balance here. You have to worry about the jury being contaminated. The judge is going to have to control the environment. And when you leave a courtroom, you'll lose that control.

In O.J. Simpson, there were people standing out there with signs saying he's guilty, and then there were people having signs saying he's not guilty. The prosecution wants to go to the home. Wants to show where Hernandez planned this killing, wants to show that he made the phone calls and the texts, and also wants to show that the home is real close by to where the body was.

So there is a balancing going on, the prosecutor feels he needs it, and the judge is going to have to keep all her eyes open to make sure everything is run properly.

LEMON: But Judge --

HATCHETT: And that's what we do, Judge. That's what we are required to do as judges. And I think that, you know, a good judge can manage this, but I think that the site visit really is an important piece of getting to the truth in this matter.

LEMON: I wonder if this is going to be make a difference because his home is now apparently filled with religious items, as well as trophies, memorabilia, from his football -- his college days and the NFL days, and they're set to be removed before the jurors' field trip.

Could these items have influenced, you think, the jury in his favor? First Judge Seidlin and then Judge Hatchett.

SEIDLIN: Well, in O.J. Simpson's case when the jury went to O.J.'s house he had all kinds of trophies, and they made the home look like a shrine. They put all these religious artifacts around the home.

In this case the judge said, I want the home just the way it was when the crime was taking place.

LEMON: Yes.

SEIDLIN: And therefore they are covering up or removing all these objects.

LEMON: They're removing baby pictures, they're removing memorabilia, they're moving a new piece of furniture which wasn't there in 2013.

SEIDLIN: Yes.

LEMON: Some family photos as well. They want it to look as much like 2013 as possible. Does it bother you at all? Does it make a difference to you, Judge Hatchett?

HATCHETT: No, and that's exactly what should happen, Don. Unfortunately, for -- for the defense they -- for the prosecutors, they had pictures taken of his home right after the murder was committed, and so they can really go back and recapture that, unlike the defense attorneys in O.J, they weren't able to get away with staging this home. And appropriately, it should not be staged, it should be exactly were as close as possible as what happened in 2013. LEMON: But do the jurors really need -- I mean, do they need a tour in

this football star's home, because if they want the proximity they can get and -- you know, into the bus all of them and that -- they don't necessarily have to go into house and they can say, here's the home, here's the murder scene -- I mean, can't photos, home video, testimony, that can't suffice, Judge Hatchett?

HATCHETT: I think it can. But you remember there were -- there was a video, then walking around. There was also the whole notion that the fiance went downstairs, brought something back, and so I think it's important for the jury to see all of that...

LEMON: OK.

HATCHETT: Because at the end of the day, we're trying to see justice.

LEMON: Alright. Let's talk about pressure here.

HATCHETT: Alright.

LEMON: Of it being televised, because Judge Seidlin, you worked on the one of the famous cases of recent years, the death of Anna Nicole Smith, and it -- it was televised. What pressure does that put on the judges -- on the judge, on the jury, on the families, really?

SEIDLIN: Well, it's tremendous pressure. This is a blockbuster trial, it's high profile, high publicity and the judge is gonna cross everything in that every eye. She's gonna be very careful as she would in every murder case, because in this cases, they appealed and they go all away up to the U.S. supreme court.

LEMON: Yeah.

SEIDLIN: And the prosecutor wants to get a conviction, and obviously the defense is happy to get anything less than a murder one. Yes, it's puts tremendous pressure on everybody. It changes the dynamics of the case...

LEMON: But added pressure to --

SEIDLIN: And let no one kid you about that.

LEMON: And added pressure too, because of the celebrity status, I'm wondering what the difference might be between a high profile celebrity trial versus justice where a regular person, Judge Seidlin?

SEIDLIN: Well, I'll tell you this. This case looks like it's gonna take months and months to trial. And in every courthouse in America, you can do a murder case in 10 to 12 work days, I mean, that's how long it would take me to do a murder trial...

LEMON: Right.

SEIDLIN: In this case, is gonna take a long time, going through it like molasses. If you look at O.J. Simpson's case, it was a trial going wild. It took Ito -- Judge Ito a year to try that case. LEMON: Well, Yeah.

SEIDLIN: He was out of control.

LEMON: Yeah. Judge Hatchett, you said, you don't understand why they're going to Odin Lloyd's home, the victim's home. But, they are also...

HATCHETT: Yeah.

LEMON: Gonna be taking to -- the industrial park, where Lloyd's body was found in 2013, the death happened in June. And now, in February the area is covered in snow, I mean, how does gonna help the jurors at all?

HATCHETT: Yeah. I do think it's a matter of proximity, and I agree that you could do it by maps, you could do it -- laid out, it is covered by snow. But I do still think it is important, because also, Don, they're gonna be looking at the proximity -- the tower, remember that's gonna be...

LEMON: Right.

HATCHETT: A factor as to whether the cell ping was picked up from his cell phone. And so at the end of the day, I think that, even though the weather has changed the circumstances, I still think the tour is in court, and I do think it's important.

LEMON: Judge Seidlin, Judge Hatchett, thank you to our judges. Alright. Jordan's air force unleashes its wrath on ISIS targets and retaliation for the murder of its fighter pilot, vowing to destroy the terror group. Will the world's rage turn the tide against ISIS?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Jordan took revenge on ISIS today, carrying out massive airstrikes and retaliation for the brutal execution of the Jordan's fighter pilot burned alive by the terrorists. And in Washington, President Barack Obama plans to ask Congress for new authority to use military force. Is the tide turning against ISIS? Joining me now is Michael What -- Michael Weiss, the co-author of ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror. He's also a columnist for foreign policy and also for now, Lebanon. And CNN Terrorism Analysts Paul Cruickshank, he's the co- author of Agent Storm. Good evening, gentlemen. Thank you for joining us this evening. Paul, King Abdullah said, this is just the beginning. He says it's a very important day -- you say it's a very important day in the battle against ISIS, why do you say that?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CO-AUTHOR OF AGENT STORM: Jordan is fully engaged in this fight, and our Jordanian's spokesman today, described, this is a Muslim world war against ISIS. I never heard that strong language before -- that's strong language before, coming out of a major Arab capital, is supposed to this where it could be a game-changer moment. ISIS really, they has been very counterproductive from that point of view, there's outrage right across the region. The head of Al-Azhar (ph) University in Cairo even calling for ISIS fighters to be crucified, because he some sense of level of anger right no now.

LEMON: But isn't there end -- "Oh my, gosh is it about time since to this?" Do you think?

CRUICKSHANK: Yeah, I mean, I really -- I was waiting for this moment of the Sunni Arab powers to get so fully engaged this fight.

LEMON: President Obama is saying he's gonna ask for authorization to force for more -- to use force against ISIS. What is it? Does it make a difference?

MICHAEL WEISS, CO-AUTHOR OF ISIS: INSIDE THE ARMY OF TERROR: I think it's mostly certification of what we are -- we've already been doing, I mean, he sees, made clear that in addition to the air campaign, he intends to train up 500 Syrian rebels a year. Essentially creating an Arab JSOC team to go in and -- try to expand ISIS on the ground and side Syria. In addition to that, we are also sending arms and training and advising -- you know military units to the Iraqi security forces and to the Kurdish Peshmerga.

LEMON: Will it work?

WEISS: No. Look, we've been down this road before, using air powers primarily to drop bombs from the sky in Fallujah in 2004, I mean, we -- we've leveled that city, it was a hot moon (ph) escape. Within the first week of major combat operations, and this mind you this one, we had marines and combat brigades on the ground, in the first week of major combat operations. Al-Qaeda and Iraq, the earliest synchronization of ISIS, was already setting up shop in Mosul, it was a game of whack mole. The only thing that turned the tide in Iraq was Sunnis turned against ISIS. And they turned against ISIS, because they saw the United States boots on the ground as a credible buffer against ISIS. They don't have it now.

LEMON: That's my next question to you. Some have said that in order to defeat ISIS, you need Sunni boots on the ground. Do you agree with that?

CRUICKSHANK: I mean, absolutely. You'll gonna need Sunni -- the tribal fighters in Iraq are gonna have to play a key role like they did with the Anbar awakening. If you gonna take back control of Mosul, you gonna need some Sunni fighters involved in that (inaudible) so you more attempt integrate Sunni's into Iraqi army. And Syria, it's going to be very difficult, because there's very little moderate Sunni opposition yet, no real partners over that for the United States. So I think very difficult to defeat ISIS there, any time soon, Don.

LEMON: OK. I want to go, first -- since we're talking about how what's going to be needed, CNN Tonight has obtained a breakdown of the airstrike numbers from CENTCOM to David (ph) breakdown of your size (ph) conducted by the U.S. and by coalition members. U.S. is doing far more than anyone else, if you -- especially Syria. Could the coalition and there are the numbers right there that we put up on the screen. Look, 72 percent by the U.S. Could the coalition be doing more? Shouldn't they be doing more? WEISS: Look, I think -- truth be told the coalition, particularly the

Arab constituents of it, it's -- it's more for public relations than it is for the actual strategy.

LEMON: How so?

WEISS: Well, I mean -- you know, you need to gets -- as we've discussed, Sunni majority or Sunni-led countries on board for the optics, right? You have to show the Sunnis that this is not a war against Islam, it certainly not a war against the Sunni populations of Syria and Iraq. This is the war against tact fury, (ph) altruist terrorism.

LEMON: Yeah.

WEISS: And that every -- you know, these are -- these are barbarians who are persecuting Sunnis themselves. I don't actually think that -- you know, adding more on the coalition or more sorties on the part of Jordan is gonna make that much of difference. One of the reasons is being -- many of the Arab countries in league with the United States, don't really believe in the strategy. They think he needs to address the Assad regime. They think that there needs to be fundamental political shifts in Iraq.

LEMON: Go ahead, Paul.

CRUICKSHANK: But I think, you know the Europeans -- you know, they are giving (inaudible) of what they are doing. A lot more -- they're not launching any airstrikes. It's all in Syria despite the (inaudible) unprecedented terrorist threat against Europe from ISIS. ISIS organized plot last month against Belgium, a lot of arguments that Europeans should be doing more -- a lot of criticism today in the U.K. The U.K. -- they and only six percent of the total of -- airstrikes. Then you have eight tornado jets that can only put two of those off and nay one time, a parliamentary (ph) committee in the U.K., criticizing U.K. government for not doing enough in this fight.

LEMON: Should Jordan expect retaliation from ISIS? Either one of --

CRUICKSHANK: I think there's a lot of concern about that. Up to 2,000 Jordanians have gone off to fight and stay in Iraq. Many with ISIS up to 9,000 people inside of the kingdom who had pro-jihadi views that with demonstrations this past, some from Raqqa, (ph) Amman, in support of ISIS of the 620,000 refugees from Syria, and the kingdom concerned that, that's could be some infiltration from the extremists there as well.

LEMON: In a short time, I want to get this in, because a lot of people have been talking about the perversion of the Islam. Jordan's are fighting, they're living -- up to a long time, those are tradition there, which is writing messages on the bombs. And one of the messages, Islam has nothing to do with your actions. Versus, from the Koran, they're putting on there, drop upon them, stones of fire, and they will turn their back and run. How are Jordanians trying to separate their religion are from ISIS now? WEISS: Well, let me -- quite clearly, this is not a war with Islam,

this is the war with a -- you know, a radical perversion of the faith. I mean, Jordan -- Jordan has a robust counter terrorism policy, it is -- it is probably the best in the region, the GID -- the General Intelligence Directorate, and he works (inaudible) with the CIA...

LEMON: Yeah.

WEISS: So, they -- they want to make it very clear that this is not to do with Islam. It is to do with ISIS.

LEMON: Thank you, gentlemen. Coming up, another measles outbreak, this one in a day care center in Colorado, should vaccinations be mandatory?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The CDC says last month, there were 102 confirmed cases of measles in 14 states. And just today, five children from a day care center in Chicago were diagnosed with measles, this for a disease that was once thought to be eliminated. So joining me now and talk about this, a little bit more, co-hosts of CNN's New Day, Alisyn Camerota and that guy, Chris Cuomo. I've noticed this is a very serious subject so -- and so health officials are really worried, should vaccinations for measles be mandatory, Chris Cuomo.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN'S NEW DAY SHOW CO-HOST: Yes, they should be. And in fact, if you think about it in a way, they are already effectively are, supposed to be mandatory, because they wind up being a big condition of being in public education. We have enforcement issues with the schools, schools that become lax and have allowed exemptions. Big part of the problem here is no oversight, because it's state by state.

LEMON: But the short answer - we get to that, the short answer is?

CUOMO: Yes?

LEMON: Yes.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN'S NEW DAY SHOE CO-HOST: I say it's impossible. Because there are exemption, and we don't want to do away with those exemptions. Some are for religious purposes, the Amish, don't get immunize for instance. And every school makes an exemption for medical -- medical exemption. If you have a child for instance, I've interviewed scores of these people have been covering this immunization measles case for a long time. There are parents whose first child was vaccine injured. They don't want to vaccinate their second child, they don't have to. Schools don't make them that vaccinate their second child.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You usually have the right to endanger someone else's kid because you don't want your kid to be vaccinated.

CUOMO: No, you don't have the right. And also Alisyn's answer is -- you know --

CAMEROTA: Go ahead, try it. Bring it on, bring it on.

CUOMO: Her answer -- her answer is the same as mine. He said should it be mandatory? Yes, unless, of course, there's a provisory (ph) in there. Of course, if your kid is immune compromise...

CAMEROTA: Yeah.

CUOMO: Or if it's an infant --

CAMEROTA: Well, that's how they are now --

CUOMO: Or it doesn't work...

CAMEROTA: That's how it stands right now.

CUOMO: Right. But that's what I'm saying, that's what it is, so it comes down to enforcement. Where I think you get a low outside of the box on this, because obviously we've been talking about early on the show so much is -- I think you have to be careful not to inform the ignorant on this. Someone who says -- well, I'm afraid, and then you have this mom on. And look, she's a typical anti-vaxers, no she isn't...

LEMON: Yeah.

CUOMO: She had a kid who was immunocompromised, you got sick. Did her doctor screened for whether or not there was no immunocompromised?

CAMEROTA: The baby was 9-months-old. No doctor screen for somebody who's immunocompromised at 9-months-old...

LEMON: Right.

CAMEROTA: This is the problem, is that you don't know until after the fact. But I hear what you are saying.

CUOMO: You can know.

CAMEROTA: Look --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: By the time in -- by the time you exposed to other children -- I mean, perhaps you can delay it, by the time -- my answer is yes, because you enforce seat belt laws, you enforce car seat laws for kids, all kind of laws you enforce, why can't you enforce this law and, when I said do you not have the -- you know, the right to put other kids in danger. If you don't want to vaccinate your kid, then don't take them in public places. That's his policy. (ph)

CAMEROTA: So you are saying that if you are not gonna vaccinate -- if you choose not to vaccinate your child, they can't go to public school...

LEMON: No.

CAMEROTA: And they can't go out in public.

LEMON: Nope. I would say if you want to choose a home school, that's fine. But you are putting other people in danger.

CUOMO: Why was measles said to be eradicated in 2000?

CAMEROTA: Because of -- vaccinations.

CUOMO: Right. Why is it back now?

CAMEROTA: Well --

LEMON: Because of the non-vaxers.

CAMEROTA: Or -- because vaccines have worn off. I mean, this is the other angle, which is some people who've got it this time, have been vaccinated and haven't either gotten their boosters off and the vaccines has worn off. There are many layers to these. But look, I'm not arguing with you. Everybody should be vaccinated, I vaccinated my kids, that's they have done far more good, any harm they've done. But I just -- think that your proposal may not be practical.

LEMON: I want to put at -- people, let's -- let's not get into that -- did you say this? People are not vaccine -- vaccinating their kids, because they are concerned about the immune system. They are -- they're doing it because of faulty -- a faulty report. Bad science, a bad report, that's why they're doing it.

CAMEROTA: Some. Some are doing it that way. Everybody has their own reasons. Some people are doing it because they know somebody who they believe got injured by a vaccine.

LEMON: Right.

CAMEROTA: I mean, there are -- it does exist, in a very, very, very small subset.

LEMON: .003 percent...

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CUOMO: Right.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

LEMON: Of those vaccinated get injured.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely, very, small subset. But all you need to do is no one or having a neighbor who thinks they know one...

LEMON: Right.

CAMEROTA: It makes parents nervous...

LEMONM: Yeah.

CAMEROTA: That's why it is happening.

CUOMO: Yes, parents think...

LEMON: Yeah.

CUOMO: They have -- they shouldn't give vaccines. They're wrong.

LEMON: Yeah.

CUOMO: So don't give credibility to their position.

CAMEROTA: Yes, But here's the problem with what you're saying. You also can't sweep it under the rug, I hear people all the time say, this anti-vaxers, they're crazy, they're wearing the tinfoil hat. Even Hillary Clinton put out her tweet that said, "The earth is round, and vaccines are good." In other words you are flat earthier...

LEMON: Right.

CAMEROTA: If you have any questions about it. That makes them dig in -- I've talked to these folks, they dig in...

LEMON: For it's all the same as the climate change people...

CAMEROTA: They start web sites, they start groups.

LEMON: Don't you think? It's so much of climate change --

CUOMO: No, I think climate change is a lot more up in the air, by who -- what's causing it, where -- it is, were on the cycle, there are a lot of questions with vaccines -- we don't have them. You are right. You cannot just tell somebody they are stupid...

CAMEROTA: Right. They're crazy...

CUOMO: And expect them to change...

LEMON: Yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Because this is not an intellectual position, it's an emotional position for parents...

CAMEROTA: Sure, absolutely.

CUOMO: So you appeal that among that level. But they also have to know, there's a price.

LEMON: Alright -- (inaudible) let's talk quickly, talk about politics, talk about the money and the cost of treating a measles outbreak is huge. In 2011 there were 16 outbreaks, 107 infected have cost $5.3 million to treat them, $12,000 to $30,000 per person, why should the rest of us pay for that? CAMEROTA: You make a great argument. Here's one of the challenges with

that, is that the Disneyworld -- Disneyland outbreak --

LEMON: And that is how it started, right?

CAMEROTA: Has started, there were 102 cases now that are connected to an outbreak at Disneyland. They haven't figured out the source.

CUOMO: They have a very long ways of finding out who patient ground (ph) in ground zero --

CAMEROTA: They haven't figured out the patient's zero --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: But this is bigger. This is bigger than, do you get sued? It's about what is the right thing to do. You don't want to play with it politically. We had Dr. Ben Carson on. He's a very smart guy, he's a doctor, he said -- here's why this happening, and one of his reasons was, all of these undocumented people who coming into the country. Now, do we know a single case of an undocumented person, did they hang out at Disneyworld? I didn't know that they did. That's a pretty expensive place to go. That's playing politics and pandering to something that should not be done.

LEMON: Right.

CAMEROTA: And they also think that most of the cases are form tourist, but, American tourist.

LEMON: Yeah.

CAMEROTA: Who went somewhere else like the Philippines, got infected and then came back.

LEMON: Right.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: So speaking of doctors, doctors are refusing to treat the anti- vaxers, there is a backlash when it comes to them. Some are calling from penalties like higher healthcare premiums, even jail time. Are people overreacting?

CUOMO: Yes. Yes, because you are not there yet. You don't have the laws in place, civil remedies would be difficult to do, and frankly, you need more harm. I know that it doesn't sound right, but that's what moves the law, that what gets prosecutors to start advocating for things that extends the law. Although you know, many are saying, Ebola was a warm-up. That this is so much more contagious...

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: That measles can hang in the air for two hours, and make people infected.

LEMON: You got to start somewhere else.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: You give more cases, you get more action.

CAMEROTA: I mean this is my point, which is, how does demonizing them help? I don't think that you should demonize them.

CUOMO: Helps a little.

CAMEROTA: I don't think you should --

CUOMO: There should be price for that position.

CAMEROTA: But -- the shaming isn't working. Actually, their numbers are growing. Their ranks are growing, so if it's not working --

LEMON: So but if you are telling the truth, how is that shaming?

CAMEROTA: OK --

LEMON: If you're saying, here's the truth so --

CAMEROTA: So you have a couple of ability and responsibility.

LEMON: Yeah.

CAMEROTA: I think that is fine, I really do. I think you have to make a choice in life, but what Chris is -- I'm sort of arguing with Chris, because what Chris is saying is that -- for instance on New Day, we had on a mom, who had one vaccine injured child, she did not want to vaccinate her next child. So with what I want to hear -- tells us your opinion, you are clearly not the devil, explain to us how you came to this, how your --

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: I think --

CAMEROTA: And he is saying, she's too sane, she's too smart, it should be something...

CUOMO: No, but I would know it was not...

LEMON: She's different than someone who's looking at a faulty report...

CUOMO: Yes. I never --

LEMON: A report that is personally (ph) not true.

CUOMO: I never used the word sane, that's slander.

LEMON: Yeah.

CUOMO: What I'm saying is that, she has a real case. LEMON: Yeah.

CUOMO: She has a kid who got sick from the vaccine...

CAMEROTA: Sure.

LEMON: OK.

CUOMO: So she should have had her next kid screened for --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: The same antibodies, but she didn't.

LEMON: Chris, I should have to get the last word on this. I'm sorry...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: So you guys talk about it on New Day again, thank you guys.

CUOMO: I'll see you in the morning, Camerota.

LEMON: Good to see you.

CAMEROTA: If you're lucky.

LEMON: I will let them continue to talk. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: That's it for us tonight. I'm Don Lemon, thanks for watching. AC360 starts right now.