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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

Interview With State Department Spokeswoman Jen Psaki; Interview With Rep. Lindsey Graham; Six Killed In Fiery New York Train Wreck; Surgeon General Pushes For Vaccination

Aired February 4, 2015 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki joins us live.

First, I want to get you to respond to what Senator McCain just said in that clip, we are not winning the war against ISIS. That's the opinion of every outside military leader I know.

Your response?

JEN PSAKI, STATE DEPT. SPOKESWOMAN: Well, look, I think with all due respect to senator McCain and every member of Congress can speak their mind. We are in a democracy. We believe and we have seen evidence that we are getting back territory. We have seen what happened with Kobani, we've seen progress made in Iraq.

But this is going to be a long-term effort. We did not expect to have won this, degrade and completely defeat ISIL, in just a handful of months. We are continuing to build up this effort and we expect to continue to make progress.

TAPPER: Jen, speaking of progress, the United Arab Emirates has suspended its air campaign against ISIS. Apparently this is over concerns about the safety of their pilots, would they to be shot down.

Look, I don't want to belittle the concern, but this is war. What kind of guarantee was the UAE seeking for its pilots?

PSAKI: Well, I will let the UAE speak to that. I will say that, Jake, this coalition is about more than just a military campaign. I know that the military component is what makes the headlines and what perhaps is the sexiest out there but there are a number of efforts the UAE and other countries in the coalition are participating in, delegitimizing, cracking down on foreign fighters, taking steps to lock down their finances. These are all efforts that are also ongoing.

TAPPER: A senior Obama administration official told me yesterday before the meeting with King Abdullah of Jordan, that the White House did not think it would be a good idea for Jordan to execute its prisoners in response to the ISIS murder of the pilot. Jordan did it anyway. Was that a mistake?

PSAKI: Look, I think we see and we understand and unfortunately, we relate to the pain that the people of Jordan are going through, and the difficult decisions of the government. I would remind everyone that these were two individuals who were convicted and sentenced to death through the judicial system in Jordan. Yes, they were killed overnight, but we support our partner, Jordan, and we are certainly looking forward to continuing to work with them in degrading and defeating ISIL.

TAPPER: ISIS is holding other hostages, including an American woman, an aid worker. I know there's probably very little you can tell us about her for her own safety, but what do we know about her condition, and is there any discussion going on about negotiating for her release in any way?

PSAKI: Well, I'm not going to discuss specifically any hostages that are held around the world by ISIL or anyone else for respect for their safety, for respect for their families. We do take every step possible. We often don't outline those publicly, as you know, Jake, whether that's military steps we have taken in the past, other steps to work through interlocutors. So I can assure you that every day, this is an issue we are talking about, but unfortunately, I can't outline any more specifics.

TAPPER: Jen, I know people in the administration are hopeful that the murder of this Jordanian pilot will have the effect of further turning the local population in the Middle East against ISIS, but as we just saw in Barbara's piece, in Raqqa, Syria, ISIS was showing the video of the Jordanian pilot's murder as if it were a drive-in movie entertainment. Ultimately, do you think this act will be more of a recruiting tool or more of something that will backfire?

PSAKI: Well, there's no question that ISIL has an effective propaganda machine, and they have used that to recruit. That's one of the reasons why delegitimizing them and using important officials in the Arab world to do that is one of the components of our efforts.

But I would also say I can't unfortunately do better than quoting from "Unforgiven," but you have seen the anger and the outrage in response to the latest violence in the video against the Jordanian pilot, and this is something that people across the Arab world and people across the world are just being reminded of the brutality and how awful ISIL is. And I think that will strengthen the resolve of many countries and many people in many parts of the world.

TAPPER: Jen Psaki, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

PSAKI: Thank you.

TAPPER: Just today, former CIA Director Mike Morell said it would take at least 100,000 troops on the ground to put an end to ISIS, but is President Obama willing to consider sending American troops back into Iraq? One Republican says he will have to, if the president wants to protect the U.S. from an attack by ISIS on the American homeland. Senator Lindsey Graham explains, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to "THE LEAD." I'm Jake Tapper. We will continue with our world lead now. The battle to defeat ISIS and the coalition's response to a heinous murder video showing a captured Jordanian pilot being burned alive. Jordan's King Abdullah is promising an earth-shaking response.

Joining me here in studio is Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, a senior member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. Senator Graham, thank you so much for being here. You met with Jordan's King Abdullah yesterday. Broadly speaking, have you seen a reaction from the leaders of the Arab world that you want to see? Are they rising to the challenge of ISIS?

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, R-SOUTH CAROLINA: No. We were in Saudi Arabia a few days before the king died. They said you can have our whole army, but you got to deal with Assad. We are willing to go in on the ground in Syria, but you've got to deal with Assad. Turkey is saying we need a no-fly zone before we go in on the ground to deal with ISIL and Assad. So part of it is our fault, but at the end of the day, I think the Arab world, hopefully this will be a wakeup call.

The king of Jordan is very committed to delivering a message to ISIL, but his capabilities are not there.

TAPPER: The military.

GRAHAM: He's not. He's running out of fuel and bombs. We are going to give him more bombs and more fuel, and they will put every fighter in there they can, but at the end of the day, it's going to take a regional force beyond Jordan.

TAPPER: We learned that UAE, traditionally heralded in the United States as a reliable Arab ally, that the UAE has basically dropped out of the coalition against ISIS. Were you surprised when you heard that?

GRAHAM: No Arab countries have flown since December the 24th in Syria except Jordan. We are flying 80 percent of the combat missions inside of Syria. Jordan's had about 600 hours of flight. All of the Arab coalition members combined have been less than 150 hours of combat time in Syria.

TAPPER: I don't mean to be glib about this, but my understanding is that the UAE stopped flying missions after the Jordanian pilot was captured, because they were afraid of what might happen to their pilots, and the part that I don't want to be glib about is this is war. You can't guarantee anything for your pilots, so I don't really understand that as a reason for dropping out. Do you?

GRAHAM: No, I don't. And I don't understand why we don't have a ground component being formed as I speak. An aerial campaign can affect ISIL on the margins. They are still gaining territory inside of Syria. But we don't have a component in Syria.

We've got the Iraqi security forces eventually to work with, we have the Kurds and hopefully the Anbar Sunni tribes in western Anbar province inside Iraq, but when it comes to Syria, the Free Syrian Army has been decimated. We are trying to build 4,000, 5,000 capacity in the coming year, but if you send a man without dealing with Assad, he will barrel bomb them and kill them all. So we need a regional force. Turkey and Saudi Arabia and Egypt are your anchor tenets. They've got large armies. They need to say tomorrow, in my view, we are going in on the ground in Syria, we are going to clear the region of ISIL, we are going to go in the name of Islam to take back our religion, and we are going to hold this territory and give the Syrian people a new chance on life.

TAPPER: And you think the U.S. should have troops on the ground, as well? You said as much, but I guess my question is, the former acting director of the CIA, Mike Morell, today on CBS said that force to destroy ISIS will have to be up to 100,000 people. How many U.S. troops should be in that 100,000?

GRAHAM: The general tells me that I talked to, about 10,000. That most of the capability will come from within the region, but when it comes to special forces, we are the best in the world. Intelligence gathering, logistics. That type of capability that's missing in Arab armies, how do you maneuver in the field, how do you communicate, how do you get the troops to places they need to go. Some helicopter capacity. But it will be a fraction of the force needed. But if you don't go in on the ground, you will never defeat ISIL. And if you go in on the ground, you have to deal with Assad.

This is where President Obama has made a huge mistake. His unwillingness to take Assad on and to tell him without any equivocation, you cannot stay in Syria, you have to go. The day that he leaves the playing field, all things become possible in Syria. ISIL is becoming an outlier by the day. This burning of this pilot alive I think is a tipping point. But you need American leadership to rally the region, and here's my comment to the American people. I wish there was no need to send anybody back into Iraq and Syria, but ISIL wants to strike us, too. The threat to our homeland that's presented from ISIL's presence in Syria and Iraq grows by the day, so it is in our national security interests, not just the region's interest, to degrade and destroy. The president's got the right goal, but the policy and strategy is failing, and we are running out of time.

TAPPER: Senator Graham of South Carolina, thank you so much for being with us.

Coming up, six dead after a commuter train crashes into an SUV sitting on the tracks in New York. We are just now learning new details about the investigation. How will the train engineer, who is expected to survive, explain this crash? Plus, with a drastic spike in measles cases across the country, why hasn't the surgeon general been out there and more vocal in urging parents to vaccinate their children? Well, our own Dr. Sanjay Gupta asked him. That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. It's time now for our National Lead. Today, the NTSB, the National Transportation Safety Board, is on the scene in Valhalla, New York. We are waiting for the NTSB officials to update us at the top of the hour about that horrific crash.

The Metro North train that speared an SUV stuck on the tracks, creating a fire that apparently burned so hot, it melted the windows on the train. Now, earlier today, Governor Andrew Cuomo confirmed that last night's Metro North crash left six people dead and medical officials now say eight people hurt in that wreck are in the hospital right now. Doctors saying one of those patients is in critical condition.

CNN transportation correspondent, Rene Marsh, is there at the crash site. Rene, multiple probes into the incident are already under way. MTA officials are saying this morning that the driver of the train is expected to survive. What are investigators going to ask him first, do you think?

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION AND GOVERNMENT REGULATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, we do know that so far, the NTSB has not started the interview process yet. They hope to do that in another 24 to 48 hours.

When they do, they will ask how much sleep this individual received, what was the work schedule, what was the shift? They want to essentially find out many things because everything is on the table, human error or mechanical error.

They also want to know was anything wrong with the train in the moments leading up to this impact because at this hour, Jake, the question still remains, how did that SUV get stuck on the tracks.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARSH (voice-over): Smoke and flames poured out of a packed Metro North train after the rail lines' deadliest crash yet, five people dead in the blazing inferno.

ROB ASTORINO, WESTCHESTER COUNTY EXECUTIVE: The bodies are all from the front car because the bodies are all very badly burned, and unidentifiable.

MARSH: At least 15 injured after the commuter train slammed into a Mercedes SUV stuck on the tracks. It was crushed and tossed 400 feet. The driver was the sixth fatality.

FRED BUONOCORE, PASSENGER: The train went silent. You could tell there was panic going on toward the front of the train, like walk back, walk back.

MARSH: New video from inside the train shows how packed it was. More than 600 people were on board. The electrified third rail rammed through the train. Smoke filled the cars and the temperature rose.

MARC WOLFE, PASSENGER: There was a passenger that ran past me. He had blood on his face and people were pulling the windows off trying to get out through the emergency windows.

DAVON CHAMPAGNE, PASSENGER: We were able to get off in time, but it was scary. MARSH (on camera): The NTSB is now getting its first look at the crash site. You see investigators there surrounding that first burned car of the train. The first step in this process is documenting all of the wreckage.

(voice-over): Investigators have the train's event recorders, which will tell how fast the train was traveling and when brakes were applied. They are also examining the rail crossing signals.

ROPERT SOMWALL, MEMBER, NTSB SAFETY BOARD: We know we want to send somebody to look at the signals, the rail traffic signals, the highway signals, as well as the crossing arms, and each of those devices has a recorder on it.

MARSH: Hundreds of passengers self-evacuated. Some say they were on their own without instructions.

(on camera): Any indication at this point whether this process of getting passengers off the train happened fast enough? Have you had a chance to speak to passengers?

SOMWALL: In this press briefing, I'm going to discuss the NTSB's investigative processes because we have not confirmed any of that at this point. We will. By the time, we have completed this investigation we will know everything that we need to know.

MARSH (voice-over): This is not the first time there has been death on Metro North's tracks. December 2013, a Metro North derailment killed four passengers in the Bronx after the train's engineer fell asleep.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARSH: Well, at this point, we just found out the event recorder from the train is now on its way to Washington, D.C. for analysis.

Also, the plan is for the train as well as that SUV to be removed from the tracks so they can eventually get it open and of course, get a closer look at the SUV and train. Back to you, Jake.

TAPPER: Rene Marsh, thank you so much.

In the wake of a growing measles outbreak, it seems as though everyone from celebrities to politicians has weighed in on vaccinations, whether or not they should be mandatory or voluntary. So why has it taken so long for the nation's top doctor, the surgeon general, to speak up? Dr. Sanjay Gupta, we'll ask him next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. The National Lead now, the emotional and too often ill-informed debate over vaccines has now become a top issue for the newly appointed surgeon general.

Dr. Vivek Murthy is making so-called house calls all across the country where he is urging people to get their children immunized. CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta caught up with the surgeon general.

Sanjay, it's so good to have you here in studio. Given what's happened with the outbreak, did the surgeon general say if there has been any talk of some sort of federal mandate of vaccines?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's where we started. That's where we ended the conversation. That collision between individual choice and this mandated vaccine, something that's more official, more federal, that's the first question I asked. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: Just to be clear, you would not recommend mandating vaccines at this time except for medical exemptions, correct?

DR. VIVEK MURTHY, U.S. SURGEON GENERAL: Yes. That's correct.

GUPTA: And you would not want to significantly change the opt-out process, the exemption process overall? You still want to allow people to exempt based on personal religious or medical reasons?

MURTHY: Well, on that one, I would say while I don't necessarily believe that we are at a stage where we need a federal mandate when it comes to vaccinations, I am not in favor of an expanded exemption process and I'm concerned as it is that the current exemption process in some states is too permissive.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: So he talked about the fact that he wants to cut down on the number of people who can say no to these vaccines. What is interesting is that since 2009, there have been 31 more bills introduced to expand the exemptions. They haven't necessarily passed, but there is a lot of momentum about letting people opt out of these vaccines.

TAPPER: Except of course when they opt out, they put not only their own children, but other children at risk. Obviously, there is an education process about vaccines that's failing in this country. Does he have a plan to help fix that, to convince parents that it's much more safe to have your kids immunized than to not?

GUPTA: You mentioned at the beginning he's on this listening tour going around the country. When I asked him specifically what is the problem here, why don't people want to get their vaccines, it doesn't seem that the education is really a problem, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. That's what I really wanted to drill down with him on. Here's how he answered that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: You recently said when you were in Kansas that you are concerned that many people haven't gotten the message about the safety of vaccines and the fact there's no link between vaccines and autism. You think people really haven't gotten the message or are they choosing not to hear it?

MURTHY: Well, I think it's a combination of the two. I think there are many people out there who have not gotten the message. They may have read on the internet or heard from friends, who come with the best of intentions, but who may have misinformation about this subject.

And I just want to be very clear, this link that was purportedly made between autism and the measles vaccine, that was debunked, that is not correct. There is no evidence that the measles vaccine causes autism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: You know, this is obviously a message that we are hearing from lots of different people, but he doesn't think that despite all these messages that have gotten out there, as much as people have been talking about it, he still thinks a significant part of the population believes these things. It's not that they are willfully ignoring it. He believes they actually don't think vaccines are safe. So that's why he's on this tour.

TAPPER: This has been going on for a little while now, this outbreak of measles didn't just happen. Why did he wait until now?

GUPTA: He got nominated November of 2013. It took December of '14 for him to actually get confirmed. It was a year and he just started on the job right before the holidays. It's been interesting, Jake.

You have Tom Freeden who has been very vocal after Ebola. Who will emerge as the spokesperson around these issues remains to be seen. He's pretty new at this sort of thing. Infectious disease is not his expertise.

I don't know. The surgeon general role is defined very much by the inhabitants. We will see how he does. He is literally just starting his career here.

TAPPER: Your position, position of my dad, a pediatrician, get your kids immunized, it is the safest thing to do.

GUPTA: Get them immunized and do it on schedule as well.

TAPPER: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you so much.

That's it for THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. I'm turning you over to Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM."