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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

Shocking ISIS Video of Execution; Interview with Michael Steinbach; Carson: No Religious Exemptions For Vaccines; Harper Lee Releasing Second Novel Ever

Aired February 3, 2015 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Let's bring in Robert McFadden, former special agent in charge of the Naval Criminal Investigative Service and senior vice president of the Soufan Group. We are also joined by CNN terrorism analyst, Paul Cruickshank, author of the book, "Agent Storm: My Life Inside al Qaeda and the CIA".

Gentleman, thanks to both of you for being here.

First things first, let's get your reaction to the news today of ISIS burning alive this kidnapped Jordanian pilot.

Paul, let's start with you.

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, we both watched it, Jake. I mean this is truly awful video designed to shock, to terrify, to weaken the resolve of Jordan and other Sunni powers in the region. ISIS put the similar kind of videos out in Iraq and it did weaken the resolve to some degree of Iraqi forces who fled from Mosul. But I think this is going to backfire from ISIS. I think there is likely to be a backlash particularly in Jordan. This pilot was from a prominent tribal family from the South of Jordan. I think it's sort of going to rally support for King Abdullah and his participation in the anti-ISIS coalition.

TAPPER: Robert what do you think?

ROBERT MCFADDEN: I agree completely with that. And even though Islamic State has executed Sunnis before, for example, at least one Jordanian soldier that was captured and divvied up between the Islamic State and the al-Qaeda affiliate Jabhat al-Nusra. This is the first time, though, with this clearly on the world state, that a Sunni from a Sunni majority country involved in the coalition has been executed in this manner. So, and again, it underlines that narrative of intimidation and look, we're a force to be reckoned with. But also, too, as well as they are trying to the balance in its effort to show that look, you stick with your illegitimate regimes in your country or you come with us as the vanguard of the true Islam. But the savagery really is masking (inaudible) and an organization in some ways is on the run and has much trouble in governing areas that it has taken.

TAPPER: Let's turn to the two French soldiers who were attacked today with a knife in southern France while they were guarding the Jewish community center. French officials, Robert, flagged this individual to their Turkish counterparts when he traveled to Turkey late last month, we are told. He was turned right around and yet this individual was still able to carry out this attack. How is this possible?

MCFADDEN: Well, unfortunately it's another instance where at least at face value it's self-evident that something fell through the cracks in a bad way. But in the bigger picture, though, I really think it speaks to the capacity of the French and the issues, and all the various threats that's dealing with terrorism and otherwise. So, I think really, that's what it speaks to in most part. France like other major powers, like have a threat nature of some kind, a various criteria. But you have something here, where this individual apparently didn't reach that threshold.

TAPPER: Paul, the French interior minister said today, or rather - yeah, said today, "the fight against terrorism is a race against time" and that a new counter terrorism decree would be put in place tomorrow Wednesday. What measures need to be taken to prevent another Paris style attack going forward? Do they need even more police, even more intelligence? Do they need the West - the United States to cooperate with them even more?

CRUICKSHANK: Yeah, I know all of the above, Jake. And the threat in Europe is unprecedented. There is real concern now that ISIS, the organization is pivoting towards prioritizing attacks in Europe, but persuading these Europeans who have joined ISIS, about 1,000 Europeans, I believe, have joined ISIS, to return and launch attacks. And we saw that plot in Belgium last month, which was believed to be directed by ISIS, a sophisticated international terror form. There is also obviously, concern about lone wolf terrorism, people inspired by the ISIS message and it appears this individual, Moussa Coulibaly, he was the French on his way to go and fight in Syria. He was not able to do that, he was then deported back to France and then carried out this attack today.

TAPPER: All right, Paul Cruickshank and Robert McFadden, thanks so much. Appreciate it, to both of you.

MCFADDEN: Thank you.

TAPPER: In our national "LEAD", a warning here in the United States about ISIS making its way into American homes. The head of the FBI's counterterrorism unit is telling CNN that ISIS is infiltrating social media, targeting teenagers to join their fight and it's working, he says. That exclusive interview coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to the lead. I'm Jake Tapper. The death of a Jordanian pilot trumpeted by ISIS in highly produced video today shows the power of its propaganda machine. How can the west fight it?

Well, that's our national "LEAD" today. It's a nightmare scenario for American law enforcement. ISIS or al Qaeda propaganda infiltrating young minds. Here in this country, influencing impressionable young men and women determined to wage their own personal Jihad. So, just what are U.S. officials doing to prevent the recruiting process before it even starts? CNN justice correspondent Pamela Brown is getting - Pam, tell us about the conversation you had with the head of the FBI's counterterrorism unit.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This was really opportunity, Jake. In fact, the first time he has ever done an interview like this. And we talked about a wide range of issues, about the mini threat facing Americans today. And of course, one of the first questions we asked, was just how effective has ISIS been with recruiting young Americans here in the U.S. and elsewhere. And his answer was astounding.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL STEINBACH, ASSISTANT DIR., FBI'S COUNTERTERRORISM DIVISION: We have seen across the globe kids as young as 13 recruited by ISIL.

BROWN: 13?

STEINBACH: 13.

BROWN (voice over): And in inclusive interview, the head of the FBI's counterterrorism division Michael Steinbach says terrorists overseas are using social media to reach into American homes, grab ahold of vulnerable teenagers and lure them into their deadly fight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the real Disneyland.

STEINBACH: Groups like ISIL have done an effective PR campaign, putting out a false narrative, describing what it's like over there. And that's a narrative that is sucked up by kids here in the U.S. and in other western countries. And unfortunately, that's not the truth.

BROWN: Over the summer, three teenaged girls from Denver were caught in Germany not far from their goal of joining ISIS in Syria.

STEINBACH: What we know is that we have been fortunate enough to prevent several instances of youth traveling or attempting to travel.

But I can't speak with any certainty that minor children have not made it over there.

BROWN (on camera): In the cases that you have dealt with, what have you found with the parents?

STEINBACH: We have seen parents who encourage, we have seen parents who were oblivious and we have seen parents who are in a state of denial.

BROWN: You have seen parents that encouraged this?

STEINBACH: Absolutely. There are individuals out there who are inspired by the message of terrorist groups and they encourage family members including their children to follow that path.

BROWN (voice over): And Steinbach admits it is difficult to keep track of exactly who is on that path to jihad.

(on camera): Do you think there are other Americans who we just don't have the visibility on who could be inspired to become a terrorist?

STEINBACH: I would say, absolutely. You know, we - I think it's unrealistic to believe that we have identified everyone. The travelers, the lone wolfs, those are all knowns. It's the unknowns that worry me.

BROWN (voice over): In order to track the ones he does know about, the FBI often uses undercover operatives who may supply suspected terrorists with money and even weapons to prove the suspect's intent. That has led to accusations of entrapment.

STEINBACH: We don't manufacture terrorists. We identify individuals who have stated an intent. They have stated that they want to conduct violent attacks. They want to travel. They want to support a foreign terrorist organization.

BROWN (on camera): And how do you know this is not someone just mouthing off?

STEINBACH: We go down an investigative path to ensure that we have somebody who truly has intentions and is not the latter like you said, somebody who's just mouthing off.

BROWN: How do you balance protecting the American people while also protecting their civil liberties?

STEINBACH: We don't have a desire or a right to step on somebody's freedom of expression, they are right to express their opinion, but when that opinion turns into violent rhetoric and then into action that's something different.

BROWN (voice over): The threat of terrorism is constantly evolving. For Michael Steinbach in the FBI, the key is to try and keep up.

STEINBACH: What the threat looks like today certainly not what it looked like ten years ago and won't be what it looks like in ten years.

BROWN (on camera): Do you have a sense of what the face of terrorism might look like down the road?

STEINBACH: I don't want to guess.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And in addition to the concern about kids being lured to Jihad, Steinbach says the recruitment of women by ISIS is much more than we have ever seen by a foreign terrorist organization. He says we have seen everything from a female fighter, dedicated groups of women fighters and those who have gone over to support these foreign fighters by marrying them. He says in many cases, Jake, just like with the kids, ISIS is pushing out a false narrative to get this women to come over when, in fact, the reality is much different from what they are seeing on social media.

TAPPER: Yeah, chilling, Pamela. Thank you so much. Good reporting. Pamela Brown.

Coming up it's what health officials have been worried about. An infant too young to be vaccinated is now infected with the measles and more than a dozen other babies could be at risk as well. Plus, Republican Senator Rand Paul saying he has heard of many cases of children who wound up with mental disorders from vaccines. Something discredited by the medical community and another potential 2016 candidate Dr. Ben Carson tells me what he thinks next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. The National Lead, the growing measles outbreak has now hit a California daycare center forcing more than a dozen infants into quarantine. A baby who attends that day care who was too young to get vaccinated contracted the disease.

And now the child care center has shut down all infant classes indefinitely over fears that other babies were exposed to the potentially fatal disease. This is in Santa Monica School District where 11 percent of students have not been immunized contrary to medical advice because their parents opted out.

We are seeing more and more likely 2016 presidential hopefuls come forward with their thoughts on whether parents should be forced to get their kids vaccinated.

Hillary Clinton tweeted, "The science is clear. The earth is round, the sky is blue, and vaccines work. Let's protect all our kids. #Grandmothersknowbest. And it turns out Clinton stamp seems to be in step with a well-known conservative who just might be running against here in the race for the White House.

Let's bring in Dr. Ben Carson. He's the former director of Pediatric Neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins Hospital. He's also author of a new book "You Have A Brain, A Teens to Think Big." Dr. Carson, as always, thank you so much for joining us.

I want to get to the book, which I enjoyed a lot in a second, but I do want to make sure I understand your position on vaccinations for children. You told Buzzfeed yesterday, quote, "We should not allow those diseases to return by foregoing safe immunization programs, for philosophical, religious or other reasons when we have the means to eradicate them."

So just to clarify no exemptions unless there is a health reason, how would you enforce that?

DR. BEN CARSON, FORMER DIRECTOR OF PEDIATRIC NEUROSURGERY, JOHNS HOPKINS HOSPITAL: We already have policies in place at schools that require immunization records and things of that nature. What we have to recognize is that a lot of people are put off when they hear the word government force. And you know, perhaps there's a better way to put these things but the fact of the matter is, studies have shown us over the course of time that the benefit, the risk ratio for vaccination is way in the favor of doing it as opposed to not doing it.

TAPPER: No, I'm the child of a pediatrician and a pediatric nurse, I'm with you, but it does seem like your statements are kind of contrary to what we are hearing from a lot of your fellow potential Republican hopefuls.

Republican Senator Rand Paul said yesterday that many vaccines should be voluntary and he said he has heard of many cases of people getting, quote, "mental disorders" after being immunized. You're a doctor. Is there evidence to back up the senator's claims?

CARSON: Well, I listened to what he said and I think perhaps it's not exactly being portrayed the way he meant it. You know, if you were to talk to him, I'm sure he would tell you that vaccines are very, very important and have made a tremendous difference in our society.

It's a public health issue and I'm sure he would be very supportive of him. He's simply saying we don't want to be forced. We want to have some choice. And I think there are ways to do this in a reasonable and rational way that involved educating the populous.

There were a lot of myths going around about vaccinations causing autism and other types of things. These have been dispelled. We know better now. So you know, a lot of people haven't gotten that information. We need to make sure we make that available to everyone.

TAPPER: But Dr. Carson, isn't exactly what we're seeing in California right now, this measles outbreak, isn't this because the people in California have been given the option of opting out and they have a whole bunch of misinformation. And now we have an infant who has the measles disease? Isn't this a perfect example of what happens when you don't mandate it?

CARSON: Well, it is a good example of what happens. These are things that we had under control. We have to account for the fact that we now have people coming into the country sometimes undocumented people who perhaps have diseases that we had under control.

So now we need to be doubly vigilant about making sure that we immunize our people to keep them from getting diseases that once were under control.

TAPPER: All right, I want to turn to your book. Really interesting and a lot of information even though I thought I knew a lot about you, there is some information I didn't and that the viewers might not know.

You write about a very interesting moment when your mother sat you and your brother down and told you that your father had been kicked out of the house. You found out later that he had been leading a double life. He had a whole other family.

What effect do you think that experience had on you and what lesson are you trying to give to teens with this story?

CARSON: Well, it was devastating. I had had a very different impression of who my father was and my mother finally sat us down and told us what the real story was. It gave me a much better appreciate because she never went around bad mouthing him and trying to force him to do things.

He didn't want to pay child support. She said the heck with him. I'll just go and work two or three jobs. I will make it on my own somehow. So it gave us a lot more perspective on not allowing yourself to be a victim of circumstances.

TAPPER: You also write about the importance of honesty in your book, you have a chapter called "Honesty" and one of the lessons you were able to demonstrate it in a dramatic fashion came when a Florida woman falsely, falsely accused you of fathering her child even going so far as to file a claim against you in court, how did honesty help you out of that situation?

CARSON: Well, it helped me in the sense that a lot of people assume that someone who has a high profile like me, who is out and about all over the place constantly probably has been messing around. Probably doesn't even remember all the people they have been messing around with and therefore they will probably go ahead and shell out the money rather than have their reputation sullied.

It helped me in the sense that I knew that here was only one woman I had ever slept with in my whole life and that is my wife. I didn't have to scratch my head and say, gosh, was there a time when I was on CNN, and I don't know. I didn't have to do that at all.

TAPPER: Dr. Ben Carson, thank you so much. The book is very enjoyable. It's called "You Have A Brain -- A Teen's Guide To Think Big," thank you so much. Hope to see you again soon.

CARSON: Always a pleasure.

TAPPER: Coming up, it has been 55 years since her one and only book to kill a mocking bird was published and now Harper Lee is finally ready to release her second novel. Why now? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. Big news in the Pop Culture Lead today, a sequel to an American classic, it has been 55 years since Harper Lee published "To Kill A Mockingbird." The novel was Lee's first book. It earned her a Pulitzer Prize and inspired an Oscar winning film.

And now the 88-year-old plans to publish her second novel. This one is called "Go Set A Watchman." Lee actually finished it in the 1950s, but she set it aside.

This one profiles "Scout," Lee's main character in her first book. Now she is a young woman returning to her hometown in Alabama. Readers will get flash backs of her childhood. The manuscript was rediscovered just last year and you can line up for Harper Lee's new book, July 14th. I'll be there.

Now, will the real inglorious bastards please stand up? Just about an hour ago, Congress honored one of the deadliest commando units in the American military.

These are members of the Devil's Brigade who inspired the Hollywood movie. Today's surviving members were awarded the congressional gold medal.

Americans and Canadians made up this group. This elite team was the first special service force. During World War II, they would paint their faces black with boot polish and sneak up on enemies in the dark of night.

The Devil Brigade helped liberate Rome and France. They captured thousands of prisoners and most of all they never failed a mission. That's it for THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. Right now, I turn you over to Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM" -- Mr. Blitzer.