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DR. DREW

Private Sex Gone Public; Couples Arrested For Putting Their Passion On Display; An Entire Family Killed In A Murder Suicide Fearing An Impending Apocalypse; Mother Tried To Kill Her Son By Injecting His Iv With Feces

Aired January 28, 2015 - 00:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, private sex gone public. Couples arrested for putting their passion on display and an entire family killed

in a murder suicide. Did these children have to die merely because their parents feared an impending apocalypse?

But, let us get started with our "WTF." It is our most shocking story of the night dominating social media. A mother loses custody of her 9-year-

old son. Prosecutors say, she took fecal matter from the boy`s colostomy bag and then injected it into his IV bag while he was hospitalized. Take a

look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Did this woman described by her friends as a loving mother, tried to kill her son by injecting his IV with feces?

Candida Fluty faces up to eight years in prison. Hospital officials reportedly suspected she was tampering with her son`s care and put her

under video surveillance.

Prosecutors say they have videotaped evidence of the IV tampering. Thankful, Fluty was caught before her child died. But, Fluty`s attorney

insists her client is innocent. Calls the IV incident a total misunderstanding. Before her arrest, Fluty boasted on Facebook about the

special bond with her 9-year-old.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIDA FLUTY, MOTHER OF THE 9-YEAR-OLD BOY: He said, "I love you mama, I do not know what I do without you." My heart melted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: This boy reportedly suffers from Hischsprung disease, a congenital condition that affects the mobility of the large intestine. The boy has

now been place with his aunt. The mother free after posting $50,000 bond. Joining me Anneelise Goetz, attorney; Kelvin Washington, radio host,

Vanessa Barnett, Hiphollywood.com.

Anneelise, the prosecution says, it has hard video evidence of this alleged I.V. tampering. Now, it sounds like a smoking gun. But, an I.V. running

in a hospital, is that OK? -- I mean not I.V., a video -- a video running in a hospital.

ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: I think that there are a number of issues we have a problem with here. You know, yes, that is a problem. Why do we

have HIPAA. We have an expectation of privacy when we are at the hospital.

And, we do not know, were there signs posted alerting this patient, alerting this mother? They were being videotaped. I can think of loads of

regulations that could be causing problems here if people are watching this healthcare procedure.

PINSKY: And, is it appropriate, Anneelise, for us to jump to the idea that this mother was actually doing something so bizarre as tampering with the

child`s intravenous device? Apparently, the video surveillance was because the hospital officials suspected she had been tampering with the son. Here

is what the -- I guess this the hospital or investigator told a local radio show.

She, apparently, took the colostomy bag into the bathroom. She had a syringe, which is bizarre. She pulled fecal matter into the syringe,

allegedly. They also -- he says, and also we had DNA testing on the material. There were vaginal cells. She may have urinated into the

colostomy bag, too and she put it into his I.V.

The prosecutor suggested she may have been suffering from something called Munchausen by proxy, which is a belief constantly that your child has a

medical condition and you may in bizarre ways contribute to making the kid sick. And, Vanessa, we reported on Munchausen by proxy before.

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Right. This is salt mom.

PINSKY: Salt mom, that is right.

BARNETT: All over again.

PINSKY: That is right.

BARNETT: And, you know, this is upsetting to me, because this is when the law gets in the way of common sense. If you have healthcare professionals

saying that they believe this mother is harming her son to the point that she could kill him, I do not care, throw some cameras in there, get some

proof and get this woman away from her child.

This is far beyond HIPAA laws and far beyond right to privacy. She has a right not to kill her son. Her son has a right to live. This is crazy to

me that we can even discuss the fact, "Oh, well, she cannot be prosecuted because she did not know about the cameras."

PINSKY: And, Anneelise, is that correct? They had enough suspicion that they could have a right to violate the HIPAA protection?

GOETZ: Well, here is the thing. So, there is a distinction here. There is -- did the hospital act appropriately when they videotaped the room?

Was it just her room? Was it all the rooms?

And, then the other issue is, will this piece of evidence be admitted at her trial? And, I think what you are going to see if I am her attorney, I

am going to say, "She had a reasonable expectation of privacy and that it absolutely cannot be introduced in trial."

And, I also want to point out, what we are seeing is the prosecutor built his case right now. And, when you hear Munchausen by proxy, I immediately

think that prosecutor is using it as a crutch to explain why a woman who is a single mom, she got four other kids, there is no other issues of Child

Protective Services being called.

And, she is at her sick child bed, every time that they go on to the hospital. That prosecutor got to find something to tear her apart. And,

that is I think we are seeing right now.

PINSKY: So, is that it Kelvin. Is this attorney running a mock or is this a crazy mom?

KELVIN WASHINGTON, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: And, I do want to figure out why the friends and family -- did they ever noticed anything? Or ever take

cautions to anything that she has done previously. Because what made the authorities at the hotel feel the need to record this.

And, I am kind of with Vanessa. I am not the legal expert like Anneelise, but when you see something is going on, we have to do what we got to do.

We will figure out the ramifications later.

We got to call the FBI or something because if you are thinking she is as crazy as enough to put fecal matter into something then she is capable of

doing anything. And, her son has been in and out of the hospital. And, I do not know if he was born with this or I do not know if this is something

that has grown worse.

PINSKY: You know what, Kelvin?

BARNETT: She is making it worse. She is making it worse.

PINSKY: Or maybe it is a very strange story. There are so much missing from the story from a medical perspective. I mean Hischsprung is usually

something that comes on early in childhood, very early. And, it is a mobility problem in the colon that requires pieces of the colon to come out

many times. But, this seems like something much more -- he is in and out of the hospital. He is on IV.

BARNETT: Right.

WASHNGTON: Right.

PINSKY: He is even getting IV nutrition.

BARNETT: The friends and family, they are just as clueless, because they are posting messages talking about free Candy. Free Candy? Now, Candy

will kill her child. Keep Candy locked up. It is crazy.

GOETZ: But, that says something --

WASHINGTON: Why is she getting a car --

GOETZ: That says something. You have a prosecutor saying, "She is horrible person." And, when the salt mom, that case --

PINSKY: Yes.

GOETZ: -- when that was going on --

PINSKY: Yes.

GOETZ: -- You had people come out and say, "You know, when you put all the pieces together, I actually agree with this." You had the family and the

community saying, "There has been problems in the past." But, with this, you have a community saying, "We do not know what you are talking about."

You have the wrong set of facts here.

(CROSSTALKS)

PINSKY: Impossible.

WASHINGTON: Why are we focusing on -- she is focusing on taking money that is earned by doing kick starters and fund me`s and she is putting it

towards a car, like should not this be going towards medical bills or food or things that actually are needed? I mean she is just, "Thank you, it is

for my new car."

PINSKY: Well, let me play for you the day before she was arrested she wrote about her son on her Facebook page. I have an audio re-enactment

right here.

(BEGIN AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT CLIP)

FLUTY: It never gets any easier. He made me cry today as well as the few others in the OR. As he was drifting off to sleep with the mask on his

little face he said, "I love you, mama. I do not know what I do without you." My heart melted. He has that affect on me. Surgery should be about

three hours.

(END AUDIO RE-ENACTMENT)

PINSKY: It is a little bit --

(LUGHING)

WASHINGTON: Whoever did that --

BARNETT: I know exactly what he will do without her. And, that is be healthy. He needs to be as far away from his mother as possible. I am

sorry. And, if she has a mental disorder, Dr. Drew, then cure that. But, she could literally -- like this is serious. She could literally kill this

child with fecal matter and vaginal cells. And, we are talking about a video camera.

PINSKY: I do not know. I mean I got to tell you, I just do not -- this case is not making sense to me. Apparently, after the mom came out of the

bathroom having done something with the colostomy bag -- maybe she just emptied the damn colostomy bag. Then the kid gets a fever.

She had in fact flushed the IV tubing, which finally was authorized to do. Maybe the hospital, Anneelise, should not authorize I.V. tampering of any

type by the family even if they are properly trained, of course, they are non-professionals. Maybe that is why the hospital is quiet here. Maybe

they have a liability there.

GOETZ: I mean they could have a liability. But, I also think that if you are looking at it from the mom`s perspective, she is probably in the

hospital with that kid all the time. And, she -- From what I have heard of the story, she felt there was a problem and took matters into her own

hands, which probably was not the best judgment, but does not mean that she was abusing and trying to kill her child.

PINSKY: Right. That is right.

BARNETT: Vaginal cells, fecal?

PINSKY: Or maybe she had cleaned the colostomy bag and mishandled the I.V. because again she is not properly trained. She had something on her hands

that contaminated the I.V.

WASHINGTON: Let us see the tape.

PINSKY: Let me play what the attorney told the judge of the circumstances surrounding the arrest. She called it a total misunderstanding. But she

seems here to admit that the client did inject something into the I.V. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELIZABETH ATTORNEY, CANDIDA FLUTY`S ATTORNEY: I think it will show that she did not put anything that is not medically approved. It is my

understanding it was nothing medical that was injected. That it was nothing foreign to him. And, that she has been responsible, with the

hospital`s permission, for flushing his -- he has an I.V.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: You notice, Vanessa, I did not go towards trying to understand this as Munchausen by proxy --

BARNETT: Thank God.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: -- because I am not convinced it is. I am not convinced. I am not convinced what this is. I think this may have been a misunderstanding

and an overzealous prosecutor. Anneelise, are you with me on this?

BARNETT: No. I am not with you

(LAUGHING)

GOETZ: I am with you. I mean I think that that is what we are really seeing here. If you look at the facts, I mean have some compassion for

this mom. Right? She has a sick child.

PINSKY: And the kid -- and the kid does not want the mom taken away, necessarily.

GOETZ: The kid is in the hospital right now without his mom.

WASHINGTON: There is a lot of compassion. But the fact is and I know Vanessa, you may agree or disagree, but the fact is, why is the mom doing

things doctors and nurses should do?

BARNETT: It is a hospital.

WASHINGTON: If I am getting heart surgery, I do not want my wife hoping in and helping out the doc.

BARNETT: And, I know you love your wife.

WASHIGNTON: But, let them finish. Let them do it. That is what we pay our benefits and all our bills.

BARNETT: And, there should never be fecal matter and vaginal cells in anyone`s I.V.

PINSKY: I will grant you that, Vanessa. I will grant you that. However, this apparently -- if this child is in and out of the hospital a lot, maybe

the pediatric unit allowed the family to manipulate the I.V., and to flush them for whatever reason. Maybe for the child`s comfort and maybe she had

cleaned the colostomy bag and maybe she had some DNA on her fingers. Maybe she become --

WASHINGTON: How many maybes, Dr. Drew?

PINSKY: Because she does not know how to handle these things she should not be doing in the first place and maybe she did contaminate the I.V.

inappropriately, inadvertently, that is.

The behavior bureau is up next. And, later, we will show you, completely, different topic. How sex on a roof top landed a couple in jail after

office workers thought they were seeing a rape. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Prosecutors say this West Virginia mom injected feces into the I.V. of her 9-year-old son. He had been

hospitalized for treatment of a rare intestinal disease. But, the attorney for Candida Fluty told a judge it was a total misunderstanding.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATTY. ZUCKER: I think it will show that she did not put anything that is not medically approved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The judge has ordered the single mother of four to stay away from her son. The boy is in the custody of West Virginia

Children Services.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Back with the behavior bureau, Samantha Schacher, Pop Trigger on Hulu!; Dr. Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist; Erica America, psychotherapist,

radio host. Prosecutors say they have videotape evidence of the alleged I.V. tampering.

And, that Candida Fluty had been under video surveillance based on suspicions of the hospital staff for previous weird behavior. Sam, what

are you seeing on our Facebook page.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh, Dr. Drew. Our viewers are pissed at this mother. And, I used that term loosely. So, we have over 500 comments and

counting. And, regardless that this woman has a mental illness or not, Munchausen by proxy, which I call "BS" by the way, all of the comments are

unsympathetic.

They are very outraged at the fact that she is free because she posted bail and that she is only facing eight years in prison. We also have a comment

from Erica. She, apparently, lives in the same West Virginia County, where Candida Flutty lives.

She writes, quote, "I would sentence her to death because no mother does this. She better be glad that I finished my jury duty in Mingo County."

Dr. Drew, I am sure the defense would want you on the jury, because you believe her. What?

PINSKY: Well, I might believe her.

SCHACHER: Come on.

PINSKY: I just do not think we should be wielding our pitchforks and torches just yet.

SCHACHER: Did you read the reports?

PINSKY: If that is what happened. Judy, do you feel me on this? Or is there other things to suggest Munchausen here? I mean yes, one child is

usually be the one they focus on, but could all this child`s illness be Munchausen by proxy or is this kid just sick and this is an unfortunate

series of mishaps?

JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I do not think so, Dr. Drew. They had to monitor her for a reason. She had been suspicious to the hospital

staff for a reason. And, this has probably been going on for some time. And, you have to remember, Dr. Drew, people with Munchausen, sometimes it

is not conscious.

It is not that they are necessarily trying to do this just for attention. There are other motives behind it. There is some needs that they have not

gotten met when they were children. There are a lot of other reasons for this. I do not see it being anything but Munchausen.

PINSKY: All right, Erica, what is the other evidence other than there is something weird in the I.V.?

ERICA AMERICA, PSYCOTHERAPIST: Well, I have to say, "Yes, Judy. No, Dr. Drew. Sorry, I love you, but I do not agree with you.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Wow! How can --

AMERICA: This is Munchausen by proxy, a hundred percent.

SCHACHER: Yes.

AMERICA: This is the salt mom, but we are going to call this on, "The S mom." I cannot say the word, but that is what this one is. OK? I mean

look, she is getting attention from friends, from family, from the online community exactly the same way that the salt mom did. OK?

She is going to events and smiling. She is saying this overly -- over the top diary-type things on Facebook. And, it is because she is getting needs

that are not met. I do not think it is conscious.

PINSKY: OK. All right.

AMERICA: At the same time, I do not think tha we should go after her with a pitch fork, though. I do think it is a mental illness.

SCHACHER: Dr. Drew! --

PINSKY: What are you yelling at me for?

SCHACHER: Dr. Drew!

PINSKY: That was Erica that said that. She says she has some sympathy, she is sick.

SCHACHER: OK. First of all, I am very proud of the show that always shines a light on mental illness. And, we worked really hard to dis-

stigmatize it. But, I am sorry, I do not buy Munchausen by proxy.

I see it is somebody that is narcissistic. I see it as somebody that is selfish. Somebody that is just doing everything in their power, including

torturing their son in order to get attention. And they are so calculated that they take all the donations and they go buy a car?

PINSKY: Well, let me show you that.

SCHACHER: How is that a mental illness, Dr. Drew?

PINSKY: Let me show you earlier this month, she did -- And Sam is right, she had a fund-raiser dinner reportedly held in the family`s home. After

the event, Ms. Fluty posted her appreciation on Facebook. Here is a recreation of the post. It has been edited for time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FLUTY: I want to thank everyone who helped and brought him in today. We appreciate it so much and we are blessed to live in an area, where people

do so much. I want everyone to know that the money that was raised at the dinner will be put on a down payment for a car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Now, the car was needed for transportation to get the son to the hospital in Ohio, away from West Virginia. Sam, you still do not --

SCHACHER: No, Dr. Drew. Her family -- a lot of her family members are very supportive. They can help take the child to the hospital. I am

sorry. I do not buy any of this. And, I think that Munchausen by proxy is just as real as affluenza. No.

PINSKY: Erica is crying for you for this. Go ahead.

AMERICA: Yes. OK. I am going to just go for this crazy analogy I just made up in my head. OK. Sam, could there be a physical illness that is so

complicated that we just do not understand it when we explain it? Is that possible?

SCHACHER: No. I think you are coining it and labeling it because --

AMERICA: But what I am saying is -- I am saying there can be a mental illness that is so complicated with personality disorder and so intense

that it shows up like so many other things that you think it is just this and it is that and that, but it really is a mental illness.

SCHACHER: Well, she is so calculated. She is so aware and calculated and narcissistic and selfish.

AMERICA: But she does not know what she is doing, though. She does not know.

SCHACHER: I think she does know what she is doing.

AMERICA: I am not saying that it is an excuse of her behavior.

PINSKY: Stop. Stop. Everybody stop. I am going to switch. Judy, fundamental attribution error, is not that possibly what we are seeing at

work here? Erica, Sam are attributing internal characteristics to a circumstance that may be the entirety of the explanation.

HO: I agree with you, Dr. Drew. That is a viable option. Now, somehow we are looking at this woman judging the few incidents that we know about her

from the news and saying all of these things about her lifelong personality. I get that. That is a possibility.

PINSKY: That is a classic thing. It has a name.

HO: That is a classic thing.

PINSKY: It is called the fundamental attribution.

HO: That is right.

PINSKY: And, everyone is getting exercise about this.

HO: We all do it. We all do it.

PINSKY: We all do it. But, I got to share something with everybody. You, guys, are going to love this.

SCHACHER: You changed your mind?

PINSKY: I did not change my mind. But, apparently a certain Twitter follower -- I will just give you her initials, A.S. "Am I rubbing off on

Dr. Drew? Did he just acknowledge there could be reasonable doubt? #IVfrom1anahitasedaghatfar.

(LAUGHING)

So, reasonable doubt -- it is more than reasonable doubt. The pieces do not fit for me as a physician. It is just not all -- it does not make

sense. It does not fit my clinical instincts.

HO: But, Dr. Drew --

PINSKY: Last word, Judy. Last word.

HO: OK. With Munchausen by proxy, it is notoriously difficult to diagnose even --

PINSKY: Yes, agree.

HO: And, that is part of the deception.

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: And, that is why it is so difficult to understand.

PINSKY: And, I am prepared --

SCHACHER: That is not real.

PINSKY: I am totally prepared to accept that I may be wrong. I could be wrong. But it is not fitting together quite right for me.

Next up. Did -- this is a crazy story. Did a mother and father kill their children and themselves merely -- well, out of a paranoid delusion about a

doomsday coming.

And, later, a couple, who is arrested for some valentine`s day role playing. There he is. That involved -- I am laughing because it was role

playing. And, this did not really happen to this poor girl, but something else did. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: This is 911?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE DISPATCHER: Yes it is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: Oh my God!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHACHER: Court documents suggest the family was poisoned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF J. SCOTT FINLAYSON, SPRINGVILLE POLICE CHIEF: There is no evidence of any of the family members were forced to take lethal doses of Any drug

combinations nor was there any evidence they took the drugs willingly. Also, there were no signs of a struggle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: This whole family killed themselves.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE DISPATCHER: The address ma`am.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALISON BEDELL, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: The parents were the ones who first medicated their children, moved their body in such position and then

medicated themselves.

(NO VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHACHER: Empty cups found next to each victim. Red liquid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FINLAYSON: There were no drugs in the red liquid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: Hello. Hello.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE DISPATCHER: Hi. So, the whole family is dead?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: The whole family is dead. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE DISPATCHER: How many do we have there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: Five. Three children --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE DISPATCHER: Five people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FINLAYSON: The coming apocalypse thing where the world was falling apart and they needed to escape.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with a segment we call, "Seriously?" A story that would be hard to believe unless it in fact were true. Anneelise, Kelvin and Vanessa

have returned. New shocking details about the deaths of three children and their parents.

Police in Utah released this findings including autopsy results in this mysterious case of distract family. Their bodies were found in the master

bedroom in their home in September. Apparently, the parents were worried about a pending apocalypse, Kelvin, and, kids dead. Could not we have

protected them?

WASHINGTON: Yes. Well, the police say that they believe the family thought they were concerned about the evil in the world and the impending

doom. They wanted to escape that.

Even some friends thought the family would go off the grid, and some even suspected suicide. And, so with the apocalypse -- instead of it coming to

them, they decided to bring it to themselves. And, it is a really sad situation.

PINSKY: They did bring it to themselves. And, Vanessa, this kind of -- I do not know. There is so many things in our world where people get into

goofy thinking. We just go, "Who are we to say?" I mean, "Mom believed an impending apocalypse. So, why -- That is what she believes." And, look

what happens when we do not step in earlier.

BARNETT: Exactly. This is when you hear something, you say something. These types of believes are far beyond. Oh, well, you can do whatever you

want in your family. These believes are ones that can take lives. They are so far that it makes you think there has to be something chemically

imbalanced. These are not that --

PINSKY: Whoa! Whoa! Vanessa, are you going to have an explanation for the behavior? I am shocked here.

BARNETT: No. I do not want to call this --

PINSKY: I may have one, by the way, but I am not dismissing the evilness of the behavior. I may have an explanation, though.

BARNETT: I do not want to call this a mental illness, though. I am not going that far. It felt like cult-like behavior. And, for me that does

not tie into mental illness. That is two separate things.

PINSKY: All right. All right. Let me show you what the autopsy results found. The dad died of a heroin overdose. Mom, a cocktail of methadone

and over-the-counter medication. The children methadone and Benadryl.

Please, I could not say whether the 14-year-old Benson was a homicide or a suicide, because they also found a good-bye note he had written to a good

friend, that seemed to indicate he knew something was going to happen or maybe he participated, Anneelise.

Is not that is what is being suggested there? That he was duplicitous with the parent in some weird way. But, the fact that it is a bunch of opiates

and that people knew there was opiate addiction in this family and that mom was having strange thoughts, could not we have done something sooner?

GOETZ: Yes. I mean I would think that someone -- you hear the family talking about they talked about the apocalypse, they talked about these

issues. And, maybe they were not quite well. Maybe the family could have reached out. I do not want to put blame on them. I do not want to put --

PINSKY: On the family?

GOETZ: On the family, because -- the ones that are still living. I feel like what I am have heard --

PINSKY: No. I agree. I agree with that.

GOETZ: What I have heard is that they pulled away. They pulled away about four years ago from what otherwise was a very tight-knit family. They

started home schooling their children.

They are talking to their kids about this end of time, end of days. And, so, I would wonder, are they getting outside influences? And, I question,

have the authorities searched the computer yet? Because that could be a treasure chest.

PINSKY: Well, Anneelise, they were. Do we have the information about the guy, this Lafferty guy that influenced -- I think it was the mom. I will

see if I can get that up there in just a second. But, yes, there was a guy that was influencing mom.

But, one of the theories I had -- I will tell you about it in just a second, but before I get into the person that is really the evil factor in

all of this, mom was on methadone. And, methadone when you try to come off of it, people can get quite psychotic.

They can get -- maybe she was tapering down. Maybe she was not following I will see if i can get that up there. There was a guy influencing mom.

Before i get into the person that is really the evil factor in all of this, mom was on methadone. Methadone when you try to come off, people can get

psychotic.

They can get -- maybe she was tapering down. Maybe she was not following properly with her clinic. Who knows, but I speculated about that when we

first heard about this story. It seemed like something extraordinary was going on.

This piece I did not know about. It is convicted killer named Dan Lafferty. He is on death row for killing her sister-in-law and her baby.

The distract family has apparently developed a friendship with him. Have a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER (1): It started out as a pen pal kind of a thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER (2): He talked to her like one of his children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER (1): The word was tossed around several times that she was obsessed with the Laffery story. He says, "You know I

believe that I am Elijah. He seemed to care for them. He had completed paperwork should he expire, he wanted them to get his remains.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER (2): He felt really sad that they had committed suicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: So, Vanessa, you are on to something there. Apparently, hadvisited him up until 2008, quote, "Frequently." And, this is a cult-

like phenomenon. This is sort of a Charles Manson mini little cult. This guy is saying he is Elijah. He is God. He knows something special. There

is apocalypse coming.

BARNETT: I am sorry --

PINSKY: This guy should be -- Anneelise, how come we cannot hold that guy accountable for these deaths?

BARNETT: Can I just say that does anybody visiting him? Why are not authorities worried about that? I think that should also be a red flag.

Anyone visiting this guy who is clearly way out there.

PINSKY: Well, Vanessa, we have somebody marrying Charles Manson.

WASHINGTON: Right.

PINSKY: These men have rights. Do not you know, Kelvin? Right? They have rights to visit people, who want to believe their BS.

WASHINGTON: We are not supposed to judge a book by its cover.

PINSKY: We cannot judge. We cannot judge, Kelvin. No judging.

WASHINGTON: He looks crazy right off the bat. Like it did not take this story to believe that.

PINSKY: That is not crazy. That is evil.

WASHIGNTON: And, evil, great point. And, you know what? I think this family is another testament that, we as family members, we need to be more

cautious and be more proactive with our family members.

PINSKY: Yes. Get them help.

WASHINGTON: If we see a family member --

PINSKY: Yes.

WASHINGTON: We cannot take the kids away but our concern should be those children.

PINSKY: We should not succumb to stigma or fear of righteous indignation by taking people to help them by appropriate professionals. Anneelise, I

raised a bunch of little insularly legal issues here. I want to give you the last word.

GOETZ: I mean, I think it is a tragedy. It is so horrible. I want to see the law enforcement dive in and analyze those computers. Because I think

there is more to play. I think these are the kind of people that might have been susceptible to the cult-like behavior. To people like making pen

pals with someone in prison.

Let us see who they were talking to. Let us see who they were e-mailing. Let us see what they were searching about. And, if someone is out there

telling people to do these kind of things. We need to pinpoint them and target that person.

PINSKY: And, can we -- let us see the guy with the crazy beard. Cannot we get him and make him responsible for these deaths? Is there a way do that?

We will just finish with that thought.

WASHIGTON: Do not judge the book by its cover.

GOETZ: I mean the issue, they have not talked since 2008. So, most likely he is not the direct culprit of this. He is already in jail. He does not

have any money. What are you going to go after him for?

PINSKY: All right. Next, we hear from a family member who did sense there was something wrong. We will see her here what she has to say. And,

later, have you had sex in public? That is our poll at hlntv.com/drew. We will be talking about couples who had done so and got a bit of trouble.

Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: Hello. Hello.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE DISPATCHER: Hi. So, the whole family is dead?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: The whole family is dead. Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: To get two little children to drink that, I mean, is that going to take a lot of prompting? Is that going to taste

really bad? Is that something you can just drink like milk?

UNIDENTIFEID MALE POLICE OFFICER: This particular methadone is cherry flavored. And, so that may have helped it go down easier, so to speak.

FINLAYSON: Clinically and scientifically, no official toxicity levels have been established for drugs such as methadone when ingested by children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with our behavior bureau. Sam, Judy, and Erica. The mystery surrounding the deaths of this Utah family has now been solved. Two

parents in their 30s, three of the four children died of drug overdose. One of the most powerful culprits was liquid methadone, which were had been

prescribed for the mother, Judy.

So, how about my theory that maybe she was in low-grade methadone withdrawal and that is what made her crazy? Or maybe she was already crazy

-- that is a pejorative term. Maybe she had already some sort of chronic psychotic condition that predisposed her drug addiction as well.

HO: I absolutely agree with you, Dr. Drew. I was just thinking about the fact that if she had been non-compliant with her methadone, that leads to

side effects, including paranoia and psychosis.

PINSKY: Yes. That is what I thought. That is what I thought. Exactly.

HO: Absolutely. So, if that happens, you can see the narrative happening. She starts to have ideas that maybe people are out to hurt her family. So,

she decides she needs to kill all of them to save them. And, what does she have on hand? The extra methadone that she did not take.

PINSKY: And, Dad, I guess was on heroin.

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: So, I mean a meltdown, Sam.

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: There is so much going on in this family. There is A lot more than met the eye. Even though I would seem to think it was OK, there was a

lot going on.

SCHACHER: I actually, Dr. Drew, think that the dad was the leader in all of this. I mean it was the mother that was coming off of the heroin

addiction. And, the dad, if you look at the police report, he was the one or at least they believed tucked everybody in, because the children and the

mother were tucked in up to their neck. He was not tucked in. So, they believe that he had the poison last. So, I think that he somehow was the

one that brainwashed everybody.

PINSKY: It kind of make sense, Erica. He may have had a slower acting oral medicine to everybody and then took the big IV dose for himself at the

very end.

AMERICA: Yes. And, you know, you can look at it as maybe this is a humane way to kill a family. But, unfortunately, there is nothing humane about

this.

PINSKY: What is humane about killing people?

AMERICA: No, I am saying people are saying that, though. People are saying -- there was in guns or knives involved. But at the same time, this

is killing a family who did not want to be killed. Little children are not deciding that they want to go. This was an act of delusionary behavior.

They were delusional thinking the world was going to end. They were getting away from society, from friends and family. And, unfortunately, it

was not loud enough and their behavior was not out there enough that people -- friends and family levels were not able to do anything.

PINSKY: Well, Erica, let me bring a family member in here. This is Benjamin`s brother Jake. He said that there were signs that something was

up with the parents. But he was not aware that they had been diagnosed with any specific psychiatric condition.

We had asked him to join us. But he told us that the family has been advised not to speak about the details of the case, Judy. Get this,

because it may cause copycat suicides.

SCHACHER: What?

PINSKY: Is that sufficient to keep quiet? It is a story that is out there. If there is going to be copycats, them helping people understand

it, raising awareness for family members how to intervene. I do not see how that is going to contribute to the copycat phenomenon.

HO: No. I think that is an excuse. The family firmly has a right to deny interviews because they just do not feel comfortable. That is fine. But,

that copycat part, like you said, Dr. Drew, it does not really make any sense.

And, actually, they really -- if they are comfortable with an interview somewhere down the line, I really hope they speak with you. Because I

think there is some good knowledge we can get about how to detect warning signs and intervene before something like this happens.

PINSKY: Well, and that is to the very point. If anyone is feeling suicidal, this is not any way to bring peace. This is going to bring

destruction upon yourself and your family. Please get help. Sam, what is our Facebook page say?

SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh, Dr. Drew. OK. So, Rebecca F. Writes, "Coo coo." Ty F. writes, "I think it was selfish. Kill yourself, leave them alone,"

meaning the children. Vicky Lynn K., "Religious fanatic." Ingrid Elizabeth, "I am so sick of hearing mental illness for every murder. It is

a selfish and cowardly act."

PINSKY: I agree. Here is what I think -- I think that, that in fact, it is not as though everyone on methadone, everyone on heroin, everyone with

the psychiatric problem are in fact -- it is exceedingly rare that somebody is going to kill themselves or kill their family around a psychiatric

illness.

This is an extraordinary circumstance. But, it is a reminder, A. There are copycats. So, B. If you any of you are thinking about this being a cool

means of doing God knows what, stop it. Get some help. Number two, if anyone out there has any suspicions about themselves or family members,

reach out. It is OK. There is a lot of people are ready to help. This does not have to end in tragedy.

Next up, how does consensual so-called bondage on Valentine`s Day end up with a couple on jail? Also, check us out on Instragram @Drdrewhln. We

are back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: It was the weirdest display of affection.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): Threatening her, I am yelling at her. Brandishing the pistol at her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: As this Valentine`s Day role-play rolls on, Nick has no idea that Portland police now believed there is a real

kidnapping in progress.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): I decided to take her around to all the little roadside stands to buy her special Valentine`s Day gifts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (3): Happy valentine is day.

UNIDENTIFEID FEMALE SPEAKER: I felt terrified that somebody was going to see me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Sure enough, a witness calls in the crime.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (3): The eyewitnesses saw a naked lady in the back of the car bound.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I was overwhelmed by the amount of adrenaline that was pumping through me. And I was so taken by how sweet and romantic

this all was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I am back with Vanessa, Judy and joining us HLN correspondent, Sian Pierre Regis. Welcome, Sian Pierre. It is the story you are tweeting

about most tonight. Couples getting caught having sex and various activities in public places. That is the premise of a new show. It is

called, "Sex sent me to the slammer." And, Sian Pierre, you are new to the panel, so am i going to find anything like this in your court records?

SIAN PIERRE REGIS, HLN CORRESPONDENT: What is happening, Dr. Drew?

PINSKY: You tell me.

REGIS: This is the most ridiculous show I have ever seen in my life. And, the fact that that woman thought anything was sexy about being dragged

around in the back of a car tied up, having somebody throw chocolate on her, I just do not even understand. Where do these people live?

PINSKY: I think it is a good YouTube video, maybe. Sian Pierre, no, maybe not?

(LAUGHING)

REGIS: Not on my channel.

PINSKY: Judy, I think people want to understand -- people that do not engage in these behaviors, why this high adrenaline surge is enhancing to

her. In my experience, there two conditions where people need a lot of stimulation. One is history of opiate addiction. I am not saying this is

an opiate act. I do not know. And, two is history of trauma. Both things affect the brain is arousal system.

HO: Absolutely and their arousal system is key here, Dr. Drew. So, in the idea about addiction, this is a type of addiction. What these people do

when they get sexually excited -- what we all do really is the pleasure systems are stimulated, your motivation, your war systems are stimulated.

And the more you do it, the more it kind of builds up that tolerance. You need more and more intense things to get the same kind of high in your

brain and to activate that dopamine that makes you feel so good.

PINSKY: And, again, that is activating the reward system -- My brain is not too good in showing that area. It is a part of the brain that sets the

motivation for everything else. It is a part of the brain that says do that again. So, Vanessa, have you ever had do that again out in public?

BARNETT: So you are just going to go there.

PINSKY: What are we talking about?

BARNETT: I am all up for a little kink, a little fun, a little enjoyment. And, I do not agree with you. I do not think this is opiate. I do not

think this is a trauma. I think all people can relate to the fact that when it is a little bit dangerous or adventurous, it is a little more

exciting. Now, what I do not like is that they involved other people in the community and now I got to call the cops because you look like you are

being abducted.

PINSKY: But, Vanessa that is because it is not just a little bit more arousing, a little it more naughty. It is because they are going to

extremes.

BARNETT: Look, what they do in their bedroom is none of my business.

PINSKY: No. I am not judging. Judy.

(CROSSTALKS)

BARNETT: Now they have taken it outside of the room and now I am involved, which I do not want to be.

HO: Yes. Vanessa, I know that a little stimulation is good for everyone, but enough to go to jail? Is that what you are willing to put on the line?

BARNETT: How long do I have to stay in jail?

(LAUGHING)

REGIS: I have never -- For me, sex has never been good enough to want to go to jail. Maybe I am not having the right sex, but I am not trying to go

to jail for it.

PINSKY: I think Vanessa is contemplating what might happen in jail.

BARNETT: I am just saying if I have to spend a few hours in jail, maybe it is worth it. A day I cannot do.

PINSKY: Sian Pierre,your opinion. Do you think all this pornography that is pouring down on young people these days contributes to this sort of

thing?

REGIS: Absolutely. I was thinking about this earlier. I mean there are only so many categories to go through on pornhub. And, I think once you

have gone through all of them, then you try and figure out how to make it even more extreme. I mean some of these people are having sex jumping out

of a plane, Dr. Drew. Jumping out of a plane. Who has that fantasy? That is far beyond --

(CROSSTALKS)

PINSKY: At least --

HO: I am sorry. Go ahead.

PINSKY: I will tell you what, Sian Pierre. I want to introduce you to Vanessa Barnett, maybe you want to meet her. But, at least, in the air,

they are in the privacy of their own airspace. I am just saying.

Let me -- I will put a stop. This is a re-enactment of a situation where they responded by people nearby. This is that same television program.

And, they thought this guy was raping her. And, those guys ended up going to jail.

So, here is the deal. We will take a quick break. Keep the panel together. We will come back with some social reaction to this. We will

have our poll. Have you ever had sex in public?

And, if you have more HLN, you can take us live with you wherever you go. Get our HLN to go app. It is available for Apple products and Android

devices. And, we are back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (1): How can we top this experience? We are on this rooftop with all these hundreds of windows around us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFEID FEMALE REPORTER: Witnesses in other buildings are horrified at the site of what they think is a woman being assaulted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (2): I think something terrible was happening.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (1): We are on this rooftop. It is electric up there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE: Police. Stand up. Stand up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: What is going on?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: The next thing I know, the cops are busting through the door. He is on the ground. He is getting handcuffed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: I like her reporting the rape from across the street. Back with Vanessa, Erica and Sian Pierre. We are talking about a new show called

"Sex Sent Me To The Slammer." And, we are exploring what drives people to have sex publically.

I have asked you to go to our Facebook Page at drdrewhln to vote in tonight`s poll. And, we are asking have you ever had sex in public? And,

evidently, all of Vanessa`s friends have voted right now. And, by the way, people are very impressed with your hair tonight, Vanessa. It prompted a

whole lot of a sexual energy.

BARNETT: Thank you.

PINSKY: Right now, 67 percent of you say, yes, you have. Erica, I have not heard from you, yet. What do you think about that?

AMERICA: No. I think that this is pretty normal in terms of, like, you know, doing it in the backyard or something like that. But, we are talking

about coming down from a plane and having sex or doing it in a bathtub --

PINSKY: Extreme -- extreme situations.

AMERICA: That is extreme and that is where it is compulsive, addictive behavior. OK? That is just -- like just Judy said, the ante is up and up.

The tolerance is going to keep going. So, they really need like a 12-step program, just like an alcoholic would. It is an addiction.

BARNETT: Come on.

PINSKY: Vanessa -- I will come to Vanessa`s defense a little bit on this one. If you are having consequences and if you are losing control over

behavior that should be pleasurable. And, that is all -- Vanessa, you are laughing at me. All of your friends voted --

BARNETT: Do you see some of these pictures? They are kind of crazy.

PINSKY: They are crazy, indeed. But, Sian Pierre, what are people saying on social media?

REGIS: Listen, most of the people on social media are loud and proud that they do elicit acts in public. Jessica said, "Guilty, it is the rush of

are we going to good caught." Debra says, "In my fantasies, maybe. In reality, no." And, then Rachel, takes the total opposite -- she is in the

minority saying, "why do people feel the need to tell the whole world who they have sex with and where? Do not you know what privacy means?"

But, to me, I say, We live in a Kim Kardashian sex tape world. Right? There is no line anymore between private and public acts. Everything you

do in the bedroom can one day make it on the internet. And, these are the type of people that want to see their name in lights. Like those people

who are having sex on the roof, they might as well go on YouTube five minutes later and tag themselves in the video that has been uploaded

millions of times.

PINSKY: Well, Sian Pierre, I hear you adding another layer to this. It is not just the arousal about the sexual satisfaction. It is also the fame

seeking behavior. Right?

REGIS: It is absolute exhibitionism to me.

PINSKY: Erica? I get it Sian. What about that, Erica?

BARNETT: I do not agree.

AMERICA: No. I absolutely. I hear that too. There is absolutely that sex tape YouTube -- the YouTube stars. There is -- on my radio station we

were talking about there is these YouTube stars that have millions of fans, and they are normal people. They do not have talent. It is crazy.

PINSKY: Sian Pierre, that is an attack on you. I hear it. She is attacking you.

(LAUGHING)

AMERICA: Oh, sorry.

BARNETT: Not everybody that has sex outsides want to be caught and wants to be Kim Kardashian and wants to be famous on Instagram. Not everybody

does it for that.

Some people do it because of their personal pleasure seeking levels and this is fun for them. And, not everybody that does it is trying to show

everybody. They just kind of want it to be a mysterious, maybe someone will see. Not everyone is looking to get into the slammer.

REGIS: But, Vanessa -- girl -- Vanessa when you go on a rooftop and there are offices all around and you are getting down and dirty, trust me, girl,

all of these people want to get seen.

BARNETT: Those people should be working and not worrying about what I am doing on the rooftop. Mind your business. Mind your business.

AMERICA: Vanessa --

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: I think what we heard -- we heard clearly is, Vanessa at least is somebody who does not necessarily want to get caught but finds the arousing

near being caught for satisfactory --

BARNETT: I am a prude in real life. You do not believe me.

(LAUGHING)

REGIS: Leave it alone, Dr. Drew. Leave it alone.

PINSKY: I am going to leave it there. Please DVR us. Then you can watch us any time. My cameramen are coming around to look at you, Vanessa. Is

she for real? "Forensic Files" follows us, of course, and it is up next.

END