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CNN NEWSROOM

Terror Raids Across Europe; President Obama Meets with British Prime Minister

Aired January 16, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ASHLEY PRATTE, SPOKESWOMAN, YOUNG AMERICA FOUNDATION: And the issue is, those things are happening.

But what I would also like to point out is, under Sharia law, a lot of women don't have freedoms. So, the thing I would really like to draw attention to here is, the P.C. police, the political correctness people, always come and say that there's a war on women going on.

Why weren't they here saying something about Sharia law, for example, and how they're restrictive of any women's freedoms under that? Because that's entirely. And that's not the extremist Islam. That's all Islam under Sharia law.

While his comments were controversial to some, they also shed light on the fact it isn't freedom for all for Islam. And only allowing this to happen for Muslims students, but not allowing the Lord's Prayer to be said on campus, which I'm sure the P.C. police would come out for that, it just seems very unbalanced on that campus.

It's just something that, yes, they can feel free to pray, and, yes, they should be able to exercise their freedom to practice their religion, just as Christian students should be able to. But this just seems absolutely unfair to me that they would allow this to happen every Friday and have it be broadcast from the Christian bell tower on campus.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Harris, I want you to respond to that.

HARRIS ZAFAR, AUTHOR, "DEMYSTIFYING ISLAM": Absolutely.

No, this is exactly the conversation we need to have. This conversation about Islam needs to be in the public square because of this rhetoric about what Sharia law is and is not.

(CROSSTALK)

PRATTE: So, why don't you tell me how I as a woman shouldn't be offended by that?

ZAFAR: I do respect you, Ashley. Now, that's why I didn't cut you off at all.

PRATTE: Well, thank you. ZAFAR: And that's why when people say -- when Sharia law is

oppressive to women, I would invite you to read the entire chapter I dedicate in my book on Sharia law, because we push back and confront those governments, which is why I call out Franklin Graham and I would welcome a public debate with him to talk about, what is Sharia law?

Does Islam advocate for the oppression of women? If I did, my wife would not have chosen to be a member of the Ahmadiyya Muslim community. Let's have this dialogue. I ask Mr. Graham to meet us in the public square so that we can have this rational dialogue around what is Sharia. We're not asking Sharia to take over the U.S. Constitution.

We're actually asking for pluralism, a separation of religion and state. The Sharia is not meant to be legislated as a government. And that's why we oppose Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Afghanistan, and what Iran does on blasphemy cases and oppression to women. We oppose that. We're you're partners, not your enemies.

PRATTE: Well, that's great to hear, but would you support the Lord's Prayer being said on campus every day or every Friday?

ZAFAR: If Duke University allows Muslims to have a call to prayer, I would absolutely ask that the Jews be allowed to light the menorah whenever they want, to have the Lord's Prayer recited, to continue to ring the bells every day at 5:00 p.m. and before and after service every Sunday like they're already do.

They always have pathways of programs that were counseling Christians. So, all the Christians services they already offer, please continue that.

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: All right, my friends, I'm so afraid -- I'm afraid we're going to have to leave the conversation there, although I know that you guys could debate this for hours.

PRATTE: All day.

KEILAR: Really appreciate you being here, Ashley Pratte and Harris Zafar.

Thank you so much.

PRATTE: Thank you.

ZAFAR: Thank you so much.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman live in Paris.

Anti-terror operations now sweeping across Europe. We're getting reports of raids and terror arrests. Anti-terrorism police thwarted attacks and stormed sleeper cells. And we just learned the U.S. intelligence community, the U.S. intelligence community had been aware of the terrorist plot in Belgium for weeks and had shared critical information.

We're also learning today that two people were caught in a tunnel trying to cross from France into Italy. Belgium is now asking for their extradition. Both of the men in that tunnel are believed to be part of the jihadi cell in Verviers where anti-terror raids killed two people yesterday.

Belgium police fearing an attack raided cells across Belgium and also France. They made a total of 17 arrests. While that's going on, there was an 18-year-old woman just arrested at Stansted Airport outside London. She's being held on suspicion of "preparation of terrorist acts."

And here in France, the terror dragnet is widening. Two people were arrested near Paris overnight, all of them connected to the shooting at the supermarket, all connected to Amedy Coulibaly, the man who killed four French Jews at the market and also a policewoman.

I want to get to Phil Black, who is in the Belgian city of Verviers.

Phil, the information we just got, the U.S. knew something of this terrorist plot that was at least in that city. That's where the two people were killed in that city. Interesting to know the U.S. knew about it, because Belgian officials seemed to know something was up for weeks as well.

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That's what Belgium authorities have been saying for the last 24 hours or so, John.

That is, they have been monitoring this group for some time. They haven't said specifically, but they have implied it has at least been weeks, certainly predating the attacks in Paris, and that it was some piece of information. They haven't said which specifically -- which triggered those widespread raids, the most dramatic of which took place just behind me here.

You can see the building, the boarded-up windows. This was stormed by police. It's where they engaged in a pretty intense firefight with terror suspects, two of which were killed and a third injured and taken into custody. It's also here in Verviers that police found, they say, pretty compelling evidence of the plot they believe they have disrupted.

That is heavy weaponry, AK-47s, Kalashnikovs, other weapons, munitions, explosives, and most concerningly police uniforms, communications equipment, and a large sum of money. All of this, they say, supports their theory that the plot they disrupted was one designed to attack police officers they believe either on the streets or in police stations.

The raid here just one of 12 across this country, 13 arrests here in Belgium. You mentioned those two in France. There are another two in France as well, four Belgium nationals in total there. The Belgian authorities are going to request that they be extradited to this country. But those authorities here are saying this is the result of an investigation going on some time, one that does predate the events in Paris. And they're also keen to make the point this is not part of some wider European crackdown, very much a Belgian-specific operation, John.

BERMAN: Belgium-specific operation, though there had been arrests in France in connection with it and from France into Italy in connection with it.

So, something could be specific the one European nation and still have tentacles that spread across the continent, Phil. Also interesting, as you say, we heard from Belgian officials overnight and they didn't want to tell us too much about this operation. And our Barbara Starr at the Pentagon just said the same thing. U.S. intelligence officials and defense officials didn't want to say too much about how the U.S. knew about these attacks, perhaps because they're still developing intelligence and there are still ongoing operations either happening right now or planned for the near future.

BLACK: It's pretty clear that the authorities are not convinced that terror threat is gone from this country at all.

You're right. They're being pretty tight-lipped. The details they have given us so far have been very limited. They have not told us just what piece of information it was that led them to launch the operations that we have seen.

They're not giving a specific time frame on just how long this investigation has been running. And now, from the Belgian government, we are hearing about some pretty significant steps designed to ensure the ongoing security of this country. They're deploying 150 soldiers to sites to be determined by the Belgian government, those that they believe are possibly sensitive.

They have raised the terror alert level in this country in the last 24 hours to the second highest level. All the sounds do indeed indicate they believe there's still a threat. They're not giving away a lot of details just yet on the plot they believe they have in fact disrupted, John.

BERMAN: Telling law enforcement officers to be careful of their social media presence and telling them they should probably be armed even when off-duty. Precautions being taken around that nation. Phil Black in Verviers, thank you so much.

Brianna, let's back to you.

KEILAR: Thanks, John.

Could the West be feeling the effects of new orders from ISIS, now that we have indications the terror group has directed foreign recruits to go back home and launch attacks?

It's estimated about 3,400 Westerners have gong to Iraq or Syria to join jihad. The highest numbers of would-be radicals reportedly have come from Russia and France with 800 and 700 respectively. The next, you have Germany, 550 there, Britain with 500, and the U.S. with 150.

With me now to talk about this, we have CNN global affairs analyst Bobby Ghosh. He's also the managing editor at Quartz.

This is the question, Bobby, I think. What can the U.S. really do I guess to identify people who have gone abroad, maybe to Turkey, presumably to Syria and they're coming back? What can the U.S. and what can European nations that arguably have a bigger problem than the U.S. to really make sure that those people don't plan attacks here?

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: It's a little easier for the U.S. than it is for the Europeans, because Europeans have contiguous borders. It's easy to slip from one European country to the other.

And then from the last European countries in the east to slip into Turkey, and it's easier. It's not easy, but easier, whereas, for the U.S., you have to cross an ocean, you have to cross -- you have to take a long-distance flight, which means there is much more likelihood there will be alarms that go off and you will be caught or at least the authorities here will know that you have gone and that have come back and then begin to decide whether it's worth pursuing you or not, whether it's worth keeping track of you.

If you have 150 people presumably scattered around the country, to keep a 24 watch on any one person takes anywhere between 15 and 25, 30 law enforcement officers. That's a lot of commitment. It's hard to keep that kind of a commitment for each every one of these people. So, decisions have to be made.

KEILAR: So, is there a way to sort someone that might be of greater risk than someone who isn't? Or if someone has come back from Syria, do they all fall into the same kind of risk pot?

GHOSH: I think they start with being in the same pot and then depending on their behavior, depending on conversations they have, depending on how -- their movements, depending on presumably their e- mail and phone conversations, some kind of process of elimination can be made and a determination can be made about who's more dangerous and who's less.

But if we have learned anything from the French example, the Kouachi borders were repeatedly brought in contact with law enforcement, had been in jail. But at some point, French law enforcement decided these guys are not dangerous enough to keep constant track of. That tells you how risky these decisions are.

KEILAR: What are the risks to the U.S., for instance, of I guess accepting someone visiting perhaps from Yemen where I think people might be more screened to a larger degree than say someone coming from France or coming from England? Do you feel like they're screened equally?

GHOSH: Well, I can tell you my own personal experience. No. When I traveled to Yemen, and wife, and came back, I got a much greater degree of scrutiny. When I traveled to -- when you fill out the form, you have to say

where you were last, and the countries that you visited. When I traveled to Iraq and came back, I got a lot of scrutiny. When I go to France or the U.K., not so much.

KEILAR: Not so much.

GHOSH: No, the scrutiny is not equal, but we know that the Kouachi brothers were on -- and Coulibaly were on a watch list.

Their actions and their activities were not unknown to American law enforcement and American agencies.

KEILAR: Sure.

GHOSH: The French knew them, they shared that information, they went on no-fly lists or alert lists. And yet they slipped through the net, which tells you how difficult it is, how imperfect even the best-laid plans can be.

KEILAR: How many targets there are.

Bobby Ghosh, thank you so much. Appreciate your insight.

And next, just a short time ago, President Obama saying that terrorists are good at recruiting young men through social media. Let's hear his comment and then head back to Paris.

BERMAN: Plus, a Dutch mayor tells Muslims to accept western...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: I'm John Berman live in Paris.

Europe on edge again this afternoon, anti-terror raids in several locations across Europe. An 18-year-old girl apprehended outside London for being involved perhaps in some kind of plot in the terrorism realm in Belgium. And in France, 17 arrests connected to an operational cell in the city of Verviers. So, as we said, Europe very much on edge.

While that is happening here, in the United States today, President Obama met at the White House with the British prime minister, David Cameron. Of course, terror was very much on their agenda.

I want to bring in our chief Washington correspondent and anchor of "THE LEAD," Jake Tapper.

Jake, thanks so much for being with us this afternoon.

Jake, the views of terrorism in Britain and the United States, both leaders were friendly with each other, thanked each other immensely for all their support, talked about how old and solid the friendship is. Is there a different view of the threat of terror right now?

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: I don't think there's a different view in terms of the threat and in terms of what needs to be done to combat the threat.

But they do seem to view the world differently, Cameron and Obama, when it comes to how these would-be jihadis, these would-be self- radicalized terrorists, how they come to that point in their lives. I want you to take a listen.

Here is President Obama talking about why he thinks this problem is more stark in Europe than it is right now in the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our Muslim populations, they feel themselves to be Americans. And there is this incredible process of immigration and assimilation that is part of our tradition that is probably our greatest strength.

Now, it doesn't mean that we aren't subject to the kinds of tragedies that we saw at the Boston Marathon. But that, I think, has been helpful. There are parts of Europe in which that's not the case. And that's probably the greatest danger that Europe faces.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: No doubt, what President Obama is describing there in terms of the assimilation issues is accurate, but people in the U.K. -- Tony Blair, when I interviewed him yesterday and the current prime, minister David Cameron, when he spoke today, they seem to be cautioning the United States not to view this problem of self- radicalized Islamist terrorists strictly through the lens of whether or not they're assimilated, whether or not they're poor, whether or not they feel alienated from society.

Take a listen to the British Prime Minister David Cameron today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: You can have, tragically, people who have had all the advantages of integration, who had all the economic opportunities that our countries can offer who still get seduced by this poisonous, radical death cult of a narrative.

We have seen in recent weeks people who have gone to fight in Syria who may threaten us here back at home who had every opportunity and every advantage in life in terms of integration. So, let's never lose sight of the real enemy here, which is the poisonous narrative that is perverting Islam. That's what we have to focus on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: You will notice, John, that the British prime minister was much more willing to even use the word Islamic or Islamists than President Obama was.

There is a real difference of opinion here in terms of how much assimilation, how much alienation and poverty have to do with this. One of the reason is that the terrorists who carried out the attacks on the London transit system almost 10 years ago, they were not alienated, isolated, poor individuals struggling to make a living or whatever. They were part of British society.

So, this is a real difference of opinion when it comes to American and British leaders -- John.

BERMAN: Jake, I'm so glad you brought up this point, because it was perhaps subtle to some people as they were listening, but it's a key distinction and a very important discussion between the United States and Europe right now as they try to work through the situation.

Jake Tapper, thanks so much.

TAPPER: Thank you.

BERMAN: "THE LEAD" of course starts at the top of the hour. Don't miss it.

In the meantime, Brianna, let's go back to you in New York.

KEILAR: All right, thanks, John.

Ahead, strong words this week from a Dutch mayor in the aftermath of the Paris terror attacks -- quote -- "If you don't like democracy, F. off."

Did his comments go too far?

Plus, when sleeper cells awake. How will other terror cells react amid this major crackdown right now across Europe? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: "Pack your bags and F. off." That's the message the mayor of a major Dutch city has for unhappy Muslims in Europe.

He was on a Dutch news program when he was asked about the controversy French magazine "Charlie Hebdo." He said -- quote -- "If you don't like freedom, for heaven's sake, pack your bags and leave. If you don't like it here because some humorists you don't like are making a newspaper, may I then say you can F. off?"

And joining me now to talk about this is Dr. A.J. Hashmi. He's the former mayor of Paris, Texas. He's a Pakistani-born Muslim cardiologist.

Thanks for joining us, A.J. Really appreciate it.

(CROSSTALK)

DR. ARJUMAND HASHMI, FORMER MAYOR OF PARIS, TEXAS: Thank you very much, Brianna.

KEILAR: You heard what this Dutch mayor said. What's your reaction to that? HASHMI: Brianna, you know, I can understand his sentiment, but

immigrants coming from all different countries as well as following different religions cannot be characterized and defined by the acts of psychopathic killers.

I came to this country looking for freedom, liberty and justice. And I found it. And I found it more so than I found it in the country where I was born. I'm going to do everything in my power to stick by those principles and promote those principles.

KEILAR: I want to talk to you about some of the terminology we have heard to describe what's happened in Paris and obviously a lot of Muslims completely reject the idea that -- they feel these are extremists who are hiding behind Islam. But the term radical Islam is sort of falling out of favor specifically at the White House. They're hosting a forum next month and they're calling it violent extremism.

They're not using this term radical Islam. What do you think about that? And do you think that is important? Does it make a difference?

HASHMI: I think there's -- I feel there's a big difference between it. I absolutely agree with it.

This is not what the religion teaches us. And this is extremism. This has got nothing to do with Islam.

KEILAR: So if you have Muslims who obviously don't agree with what's happened, they feel that this is done sort of by fake Muslims, if you will, should they be more vocal about trying to explain the difference? Is that their responsibility? Is that something that makes life better for them or that furthers understanding, or is that not a responsibility?

(CROSSTALK)

HASHMI: I will completely agree with you. I think it is the responsibility of the Muslim people to define themselves and completely separate them from these extremist ideas.

We all speak for freedom. We come here and we ask for freedom and freedom of speech and freedom of writing. And I think we should stick to those principles completely.

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: Sorry. Go on.

HASHMI: Please go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: No, I was going to say, please -- I do want you to touch upon sort of any personal experiences you have had, whether from the time when you were younger or as an adult, experiences that you may have had with people discriminating against you because of your religion. HASHMI: I can tell you that the only thing that I can describe is a

little bit of concern when I stood in the election on part of certain people who were concerned whether as the mayor of the city I was going to bring Sharia law, build mosques with city funds.

And I think those concerns were genuine concerns. And I relieved those concerns and I got elected.

KEILAR: You relieved those concerns. Are some of those concerns annoying to you, that you have to sort of say, no, I'm not going to build mosques with city funds? Isn't that sort of frustrating? Or do you just feel it's part of your job to explain it?

(CROSSTALK)

HASHMI: No, I don't find them annoying at all. I don't find them frustrating at all.

I think these are genuine concerns that people have. And, listen, there are very simple answers to that. We don't build churches with city funds. And we have a good legal system in place. There's no reason to bring another system. We came here looking for the freedom that we enjoy, and we stick with it.

KEILAR: All right Dr. A.J. Hashmi, thank you so much for being on the show with us.

HASHMI: Thank you so much.

KEILAR: And next, the race to find sleeper cells across Europe, dozens of suspected terrorists being rounded up, all of this as we just learned the U.S. intelligence community shared critical information to help Belgian authorities thwart an imminent terror plot yesterday in Belgium. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)