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Anti-Terror Raid in Belgium; House and Senate Republicans Meeting for Two-Day Summit; Pope Francis Has a Message on the attack on "Charlie Hebdo" Office in Paris

Aired January 15, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: We have video of this anti-terror raid. Roll it.

Buck Sexton, Colonel James Reese with me here in New York.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Buck Sexton, Colonel James Reese in New York with me.

And let's continue our coverage gentlemen. Let's talk about the fact this cell, again, described as an operational cell, right? They were imminently about to attack somewhere within Belgium. They had gone to Syria. And when they're in Syria -- Buck, let me begin with you, when we talk about training. This is not just how to fire effectively, this collision of cops (ph) automatic rifles that they were found with, this is also operational, logistics.

BUCK SEXTON, FORMER CIA COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Right. They'll have training in operational security. One of the most important things for a cell like this to learn is how to communicate with individuals when it's multiple individuals, sometimes it is just a lone wolf, a lone gunmen. And if remote individuals how to communicate in such a way that they don't catch attention of authorities, so they don't get stopped before they conduct the attack. So there's a whole training that goes into that process. And there's a lot that unfortunately the terrorists have learned over time about how security services will monitor them and the sort of things they can and can't do on the Internet, on social media, and elsewhere, the things that will get them flags essentials. So that is part of the training on top of explosives and weapons and the things that will make them more lethal when their do become operational which is also why getting that training from ISIS is a major component on what we would see as a more likely to be a mass casualty attack versus somebody who just sees stuff on the Internet and takes it upon themselves to wage a one man jihad.

BALDWIN: And again, let's underscore this point that Paul Cruickshank has now made multiple times. He is our terrorism analyst. He is in- touch with, you know, senior officials in Belgium, but very familiar with this part of the world. He was saying, listen, this is the first time that ISIS has directed individuals who have gone to Syria to train, to go back to the west and to wage this so called holy war. As we talk about these weapons, my question again. The cell in this

Verviers raid found with collision (INAUDIBLE) automatic rifles, how are these weapons bought and taken over this different because it's tough you were saying in France to buy this kind of stuff. And in Belgium, you are saying it's fairly easy.

LT. COL. JAMES REESE (RET.), FORMER SPECIAL FORCES COMMANDER: Well, Brooke, before we even get there, this makes ISIS do now as transnational, all right? This such becomes a transnational terrorist group now. Now also, what you have is what the weapon pieces and because again Europe is, you know, if you look at it like the United States would be, a series of states lined up, people can pass through spaces. But you know, if you look down to the southeast, you have the former Balkans states, all right? A lot of weapons down there. You got the Russian mob that does a lot gun of, you know, gun selling and weapon selling over, too, there and then, you know, all the way in the Syria.

BALDWIN: This isn't cheap. The weapons and eve the ammunition, you all were saying, is even more expensive. Where are they getting the money?

SEXTON: Part of the logistics assistance they may get is actually hard earns from --

BALDWIN: In Syria.

SEXTON: From -- in Syria, which they could try to back with them. But also, they have, again, going back to our notion cluster. You can have a lone wolf gunman, one guy, you can have a cell which is a few operational individuals or you can have cluster around that. People in the cluster may be giving them money. They may not really want to know what that money is for but have some idea if they radicalized as well.

So there are ways in to raise the funds domestically. I mean, if they save up, they can get the money to get a few (INAUDIBLE) and try to shoot a lot of people. That's not really that hard assuming that they have access to the pipeline to actually get somebody who can sell them the weapons.

BALDWIN: Let's talk about the Turkey issue here as you were making the point to Barbara Starr. We have this map, right? So here, you have Iraq, in Syria, and then north of Syria, Turkey and the issues for a long time, especially as this war has been waging is the porous border.

REESE: Correct. You know, and if you look at Syria, if you look at where the different factions are, so you are going to Rakka (ph), which is kind of sits right at top of the river valley, all right? That's the home and capital of ISIS. Then up in the northwest of Syria, we've been doing bombing of the Khorasan group. So you have that, you know, AQAP break away aspect that is up there with all these real top engineers and everything trying to plan there.

And then, you know, all you've got to do is you land in Istanbul, you jump in a car and you go down to the Turkish border which has some great cities, great markets, people blend in very easily, especially from Europe, especially if they are from the Muslim side and they know how to blend in over there.

BALDWIN: But that's the problem.

REESE: It is.

SEXTON: And Turkish authorities are allowing some people to cross, by the way, to fight as well. I mean, with the city of (INAUDIBLE) for example. So there are some people being let through. I mean, how much due diligence can really be done on individuals who are saying I'm going to fight? I mean, it's difficult to see where -- which side they may end up on which is always been part of the concern.

BALDWIN: But isn't part of the issue that, your point being, the leader of Turkey that Erdogan should be doing more to shut it down?

REESE: Diplomatically. The NATO, the west has to put pressure on Turkey to say had all these crossing points, when someone comes in with a French passport, you know, because they have their border patrols, they are checking these things. They've got to shut it down and say you can't enter Syria.

BALDWIN: And why not do that? You are saying the issue being --

SEXTON: They say it is logistics. They say it's hard to do or more than point --.

BALDWIN: You say that with a smile on their face.

SEXTON: Well, they would say that our boarder not secure so why do you expect us to have a perfectly secure border? But I also think that the Turkish government has been turning a blind eye to it for a while. I think that they have some very mixed interest to put it mildly when it comes to dealing with Syria. And they have not been stopping people as effectively as they could.

BALDWIN: And again, as we also talk about these foreign fighters, these groups who are traveling. And I believe it was Barbara Starr who said several thousand, some new numbers were just released several thousand people have traveled from the west to Turkey to train and return some of whom presumably from the U.S.

How is the U.S., she was reporting that, you know, obviously, U.S. Intel and European Intel, they are talking. They are very aware of what's happened in Belgium. But how is the U.S. monitoring Americans who try to go over there?

SEXTON: Well, you can only monitor the ones you know about which is the big hole in all these discussions about how many people have gone to train with the Islamic state? We don't know about the unknown unknowns. We don't know about people that haven't run through various, you know, again, things that will get them flag, for example, showing up in Turkey. There's some certain procedures that might make you essentially get

more scrutiny when you come back in this country. But the ones that don't fall in those categories, we don't know about. So we can't monitor them. And those who do come here, unless you can prove a federal case against them from material support to terrorism or there's some U.S. statute they violated, the most you can do is try to keep surveillance on the floor while eventually, just like we saw in France, that surveillance will be broken off.

REESE: Brooke, I'll tell you this. With all international travel I do into Turkey, into Iraq and regional areas there. You know, and you would think with my background, no one would bother me. But when I come to the United States, I always go on the secondary. They're always checking and asking me where I have been. And they know as soon as I come back in, where I have been, what I'm doing and they're checking. So you know, they work the due diligence.

BALDWIN: Gentlemen stand by. We want to take a break here. But we're all over this breaking story, this anti-terror raid out of Verviers in Belgium. Two terror suspects dead, one detained.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. My colleague John Berman is live in Paris. Our breaking coverage continues after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Welcome back. John Berman live in Paris.

Our breaking news, an anti-terror raid in Belgium. Belgian officials say this took place in the town of Verviers. It is about a four-hour drive from where I'm standing right now. It was targeted against what they called an operational terror cell that was planning an imminent attack inside Belgium.

Belgium law enforcement raided this cell. The cell came out guns blazing. Two suspects were killed; one suspect is now in custody. This was apparently part of a larger operation as many as ten raids across Belgium in four cities. This one cell believed to be comprised of individual that had recently returned from Syria fighting alongside ISIS. We get the sense perhaps in Belgium right now, this operation is still ongoing. I want to bring in Chris Burns, who is inside Belgium for us, former CNN reporter.

Chris, what's the latest?

CHRIS BURNS, FORMER CNN REPORTER (via phone): Well John, yes, these operations are going on continuing. I'm reading in the (INAUDIBLE) newspaper online here. They say THAT there was another police operation in a neighborhood in Brussels called under-left (ph) where police stormed a building and could not catch anybody. They got away. But they did -- the police did find explosives in the building. So that is quite disturbing that they are finding other things.

There are at least ten police operations in and around Brussels as well as Verviers today. And it came just hours after we heard that police had connected the purchase of the weapons use in the Paris attacks to people here in Belgium. There was at least one arms dealer who was arrested and was also linked to a market, a very popular market here in Brussels where there are also, in some of the side street, some rather elicit sales going on. And apparently, that's where some of the weapons were bought.

So this operation is continuing. Police saying that yes, they did move in these gentlemen in Verviers because they believed there was an imminent major attack that was planned. They had to act now. So that is why they did that. And these other operations happened in and around Brussels.

There are no further details. The prosecutor's office gave a press conference earlier this evening and said that we don't want to give you much more information because we don't want to compromise our investigations as they are now -- John.

BERMAN: Imminent major attack. Chilling words. Thank you so much Chris Burns. Chris brought up a good point here.

Our Jim Sciutto reported earlier that officials say there is no real immediate connection between these raids in Belgium and terror attacks here in Paris one week ago. There was an arrest made in connection with the attacks here in Paris. In Belgium, we learned about overnight dealing with a man who may have supplied weapons to one of the attackers here. But this does appears to be a separate operation planned against people who had returned from ISIS. They had been monitored by Belgium officials for some time now. Two are dead, one is in custody.

I want to bring in CNN terror analyst Paul Cruickshank. Paul has been doing reporting on this over the last several hours.

And Paul, you look at this as a very important moment in the evolution of ISIS. Up until this point, they've been eager to recruit fighters from the west to go to Syria to fight. But you say this is the first time they've actually sent them home to fight against western nations?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, that's right. It appears to be right. And a senior Belgium counter terrorism official telling me that they suspect this group was with ISIS in Syria and were directed by ISIS to come back to Belgium, to come back to Europe to launch attacks. And that really would be a game changer because ISIS has not yet directed itself, the top leadership, any terror plots against the west. We've seen fighters who have been with ISIS come back to Europe and launch attacks. But that's been on their own theme. For example, with the shooting in the Jewish museum in Brussels last May.

But what I'm understanding is that Belgium think that SIS were deeply connected to this group and that ISIS encouraged and directed them to return to Europe in retaliation for these airstrikes against them in Syria and Iraq.

And of course Belgium is part of that coalition. Belgium is involved with airstrikes in Iraq. So this appears on the face of it, from what Belgian authorities are telling me, to be an ISIS directed plot. Certainly, big suspensions about at this point.

BERMAN: Up until this point, they've been an inspirational international terror moment. Now Paul, if everything we believe to be true, is in fact, the case. They're an operational international terror organization.

A big moment, Paul Cruickshank, our thanks to you.

Many more questions about what might be going on in Belgium at this moment, ongoing terror operations. We just reported two men killed, one man in custody. Much more ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Got some more news just new here at CNN. The speaker of the house is giving new insight on an alleged plot on American soil. This plot allegedly inspired by ISIS, then foiled by the feds. The FBI says 20-year-old Christopher Lee Cornell of Cincinnati, Ohio was planning to detonate pipe bombs in the U.S. capitol building and then shoot down lawmakers and anyone else who tried to escape.

Let's go to Washington to Suzanne Malveaux.

Suzanne, what exactly did Speaker Boehner say?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, we are actually in Hershey, Pennsylvania. This is where the Republicans, the House and Senate Republicans are meeting for their two-day summit, their retreat.

Very interesting details coming from the speaker. Of course, they are focusing on trying to reunite the party, get them back together, talking about immigration, but we are focusing today on what we saw out of Belgium, the foiled terrorist plot out of Belgium. That the things that we have seen in Paris, this ISIS related attacks and of course, the failed attack on the U.S. capitol just yesterday, not to mention a personal threat against the speaker himself by a previous bartender who threatened to actually kill the speaker.

So the speaker was asked about the state of security, the height of security and this particular threat on the U.S. capitol. And Brooke, previously we have been hearing that there are tweets that were exchanged between this individual and an FBI informant that said he had this plot that was going to unfold.

Well, today, we heard from the speaker a very different story. Actually suggesting that it was through the NSA's program, FISA that stands for Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, that they got information from that particular program that there was something that was afoot and that implies that potentially, this is not just a lone wolf, somebody who was acting on his own, but potentially making phone calls, reaching out to other people either overseas or talking to some of the bad guys who are here in the country through that act. I want you to listen to what the speaker said very closely.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: The first thing that strikes me is that we would have never known about this had it not been for the FISA program and our ability to collect information on people who pose an imminent threat.

I'm going to say this one more time because you're going to hear about it for months and months to come as we attempt to reauthorize the FISA program. Our government does not spy on Americans unless there are Americans who are doing things that frankly tip off our law enforcement officials to an imminent threat. It was our law enforcement officials and those programs that helped us stop this person before he committed a heinous crime in our nation's capital.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: So Brooke, what we're listening to, what we're hearing here is this suggestion that this is an individual that the FBI or the NSA was aware of, that they were potentially looking at or listening to over a period of time. He had said that FISA, they are trying to reauthorize that act, very controversial, came under fire under President Bush, previous President Bush, and this is something that could have been old information or information they have collected over a period of time that may suggest that this is not just an individual who through social media they found out was going to go ahead and attack the capitol this way, but perhaps there were other individuals that were involved that he was talking to, some real bad actors that potentially were involved in this -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Suzanne Malveaux, thank you so much. And I stand corrected. Hershey, Pennsylvania. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

We have much more on our breaking news story. Major imminent attacks foiled in Belgium in a series of raids. We will take you there live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: The attack on "Charlie Hebdo," the satirical magazine offices, these cartoonists led people of all religions to, of course, defend freedom of expression, freedom of speech. But one voice today said there are limits to how far people can go and that message came from this man here, the Pope. This is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS, CATHOLIC CHURCH HEAD (through translator): One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people's faith. One cannot make fun of faith.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now to talk about this, Calvin Butts, pastor for the Abyssinian Baptist Church here New York. And the Pope went on to say there was a limit, every religion has its dignity in freedom of expression there are limits.

Reverend, as a man of faith, do you agree with the Pope?

CALVIN BUTTS, PASTOR, ABYSSINIAN BAPTIST CHURCH: Of course, I agree with the Pope. This man is spot-on. He knows that you can only push the envelope so far before you are going to get a visceral reaction, and much of what we're seeing today is that. I don't think the law should be changed. I think people ought to be able to express themselves the way they wish. But you've got to realize that when there are so many people in the world, like Catholics, Catholics don't like to be insulted, Baptists don't like to be insulted.

BALDWIN: Who likes to be insulted?

BUTTS: There you go. So I think the Pope is a man who is truly seeking peace and he's trying to say look, take it easy here. You have freedom of expression but a lot of people are getting hurt behind this.

BALDWIN: Do you think Bill Maher is someone who insults religions all the time, I mean, to the Pope's point, there should be limits on freedom of expression when it comes to religion, should people like Bill Maher then be silenced?

BUTTS: He shouldn't be silenced. But Bill Maher is a court jester. He is a comedian. He is a fool. And so, therefore, and I use that in the context of the court jester, we understand he's a comedian and so we laugh at him and dismiss him.

He shouldn't be censored. I am not for censorship. But I am for common sense. And I think that Bill Maher ought to exercise and I have heard him exercise a little common sense every now and then. I mean, Jewish people, any more than Muslim people, any more than Christian people, we can take a little humor. We can take a little ribbing. Takes some very bid of sarcasm. But we have to understand that there are limits, and the Pope is seeking peace. He's trying to calm this thing down so that reasonable people can talk about solutions.

BALDWIN: But those cartoonists at "Charlie Hebdo" would say this is satire.

BUTTS: They could say it's satire, but even satire has a limit. And most people realize that limit. In this country, I would tell you that if you started making fun of people on a consistent basis after folks said stop, of those who are disabled, those who are gay, those who are black, those who are Jewish, at some point, somebody would say enough is enough.

BALDWIN: One more thing. I still have you for one more minute. The Pope also said this, quoting him. "One cannot react violently but if someone says something bad about my mother, he can expect a punch. It's to be expected." His word punch, what did you think?

BUTTS: I think he was just trying to make a strong point. I don't think the Pope is going to swing on anybody. But I think the Pope recognizes that there are men and women who will, you know --

BALDWIN: And who have.

BUTTS: And who have. But I think his strong point and you've got to look at who this man is, is he's trying to find a way to calm this down so that so many people don't get hurt. So I applaud the Pope. I like this guy.

BALDWIN: Like this guy. Reverend Calvin Butts, always a pleasure to have on. Come back anytime.

BUTTS: God bless you. Always good to be here.

BALDWIN: Appreciate you.

I'm Brooke Baldwin here in New York. Thank you so much for being with me and John Berman, of course, alongside me the last two hours out of Paris.

Stay right here. We have got to go to Washington. "The LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts now.