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CNN NEWSROOM
Charlie Hebdo Hits Newsstands; Charlie Hebdo's Controversial Cover; AirAsia Flight 8501 Fuselage Found; Is the Term "Radical Islam" Inaccurate?
Aired January 14, 2015 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Deborah Feyerick, many thanks to you.
Five million copies, that's how many issues of the new "Charlie Hebdo" magazine will be printed. It's the first edition since the brutal attack on the satirical publication and it's already flying off the stands. Let's head to Paris and check in with Jim Sciutto.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Carol, initial plans, 3 million copies. Already some 60 times, 50 times their normal run, but that's increased just simply to demand. We've seen long lines outside newsstands here in Paris. Most people being turned away because it's already sold out.
The new cover of this magazine, which as you know CNN will not show, depicts a teary-eyed Prophet Muhammad holding a sign that says "I am Charlie, "Je suis Charlie." The picture accompanied by the words, in French, "all is forgiven."
I'm here now with CNN's senior media correspondent Brian Stelter.
And we actually have a copy here. Now, just to remind our viewers, we will not show the cover because of the offense. But this is the back page with a number of cartoons. Sixteen pages full of cartoons here.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So many contributions. Yes. Yes.
SCIUTTO: I want to, just to begin, if you could remind our viewers why CNN has decided not to show the cover.
STELTER: Yes. You know, CNN and many other big news outlets that have chosen over the years not to show depictions of the Prophet Muhammad because it is highly offensive to some Muslims, and because of sensitivity and (INAUDIBLE) as well. You know, we don't go out of our way to offend any religious group, including Muslims in this case.
SCIUTTO: Right.
STELTER: And already we have seen some complaints about the cover. Our colleague Arwa Damon reporting from a Muslim neighborhood here in Paris about people feeling insulted and offended by this cover.
SCIUTTO: Right. Safety also a factor in that decision.
STELTER: For sure. You know, these concerns about safety are not theoretical. As you know, Jim, there have been actual acts of violence against newsrooms that show these cartoons.
SCIUTTO: Right.
STELTER: One of them is behind us.
SCIUTTO: And we're standing in front of one right here.
STELTER: So it is actually an issue. But, you know, this issue has been hard to find today. By about -- by about sunrise, it had sold out. We went to a train station and actually spoke to some people who were trying to find copies and here's what they told us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I went to the -- to the -- to the newspaper store at 8:00 in the morning and they told me that they had 100 copies and they sold everything in 15 minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have visited all the (INAUDIBLE) around here. This was the last that I was thinking, really, I will find one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want my copy. Really, I want my copy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STELTER: Some people told us they went to eight or nine different locations trying to find copies, but it had sold out so fast. We will see more of them on the newsstands tomorrow and the rest of the week. I think they're now just printing as many as they can print.
SCIUTTO: No question. And you see, looking through these pages, and we don't want to go into too much detail, but sticking to that signature style of "Charlie Hebdo" --
STELTER: Of course.
SCIUTTO: Which is, well, frankly pushing the limits, for some crossing the limits, poking fun and, again, as I think we've said on the air to each other before, an equal opportunity offender. And you could see that in these pages in terms of who they're taking shots at.
STELTER: Yes, for sure. You know, the pope is a target, just like, you know, other religious figures are targets and other politicians are targets. This is the kind of magazine that insults and offends the very politicians that have now come rushing to its defense.
SCIUTTO: Right.
STELTER: And that's what they stand for. They're not going to back away from that now that -- now that they -- now that they've become this symbol for all of France.
SCIUTTO: We're also seeing a phenomenon now because of this demand that there's -- copies are starting to show up on eBay.
STELTER: Oh, and for hundreds and hundreds of dollars.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
STELTER: Those who were up early enough to get copies before the sun rose here now selling them online. And there are plans for distribution in other countries. It's not available right now in the United States, but I think that plan is in the works and it may be available in some newsstands in the future.
SCIUTTO: And a reminder that it's going to be reprinted in other languages as well, tellingly in Arabic too, to reach that part of the population.
STELTER: That's right. That's right.
SCIUTTO: Brian Stelter, our senior media correspondent, always great to have you.
Well, for many, the latest issue of "Charlie Hebdo" comes with a clear message, despite terrorism, the magazine will go on and the right to free speech will prevail.
I want to hand it over back to my colleague, Carol Costello, back in Atlanta.
And I have to say that that emotion, Carol, is one that we felt here not only in the magazine, not only in the people buying the magazine, but just, again, in that rally on Sunday. People physically showing their presence in the march. But also, I think, in another very powerful demonstration, which is people making a point, it seems, of living their lives. I'll tell, you despite the concern here, despite the threat, restaurants are crowded. The streets are crowded. People are going to work. They're not being cowed by this, Carol.
COSTELLO: Good for them. Jim Sciutto, thanks. We'll get back to you.
My next guest knows what it's like to face criticism for comedy. She's the creator of the "The Little Mosque on the Prairie," a Canadian TV show that pokes fun at the Muslim community.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Muslims around the world are known for their sense of humor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did not know that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Little mosque.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That will sound too weird for our Christian visitors.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I find little cultural differences so interesting. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: OK, so maybe you get the idea. I wish I could have shown a little more of that, because that's pretty funny. Zarqa Nawaz joins us now. She's also the author of the book, "Laughing All the Way to the Mosque."
Zarqa, thank you for being with me this morning.
ZARQA NAWAZ, CREATOR, "LITTLE MOSQUE ON THE PRAIRIE": Oh, thanks for having me, Carol.
COSTELLO: Why is your humor accepted and "Charlie Hebdo's" isn't?
NAWAZ: Well, I would say, when the show first came out, it wasn't accepted. There was a lot of shock and worry in the Muslim world. You know, this came out -- the show came out in 2006, so this was before Twitter and FaceBook. You know we were -- my family was getting calls, phone calls from all over the world asking us not to put it on. That, you know, that what was I doing? Was I creating something that would, you know, show the Muslim world -- show Islam with disrespect.
After the show aired, the mosque got involved and, you know, called the CBC (ph) and asked them to take it off. And there was a petition to have me removed as a member of the community. So it was quite shocking to me because I consider myself someone who's practicing Islam, you know, a practicing Muslim who was showing Islam great deference within the show. So that outrage, you know, really surprised me.
And it took me -- you know, it took me, as I wrote in my article, several years to figure out where that worry and anger was coming from. And it was because it was the first time it had ever been done in the western world. And I had made a comedy about Muslims in a mosque no less. And it had shocked people. And they needed time to get over that and to sort of just become desensitized to that fact. And some people just were mixing up the fact that I was making fun of Muslims, which is a lot different than making fun of Islam, because I wasn't, you know, intending to make fun of the prophet or to make fun of God. I didn't have, you know, issues with any of those subjects. I did have issues, however, with some of the sexism and extremism within the community, and those were the subjects I went after.
COSTELLO: OK. Well let me ask you about the cover of "Charlie Hebdo." As we just mentioned, it shows the Prophet Muhammad wearing a white robe and a turban. He's shedding a tear and he's holding up a sign saying, "je suis charlie," "I am Charlie," and "all is forgiven." What does that mean in your mind?
NAWAZ: Well, you know, I saw the image on Twitter. It's, you know, it's going around the world. And I thought actually it was quite respectful and done tastefully. So I wasn't offended.
You know, at the same time, though, I do live in North America and the situation for Muslims in North America is very different than the situation for Muslims in Europe. I mean its radically a different situation. I mean the -- you know, Canada and the United States, we are countries that are made up of immigrants. You know, we are part of a melting pot. Whereas in Europe, there's a lot more anti-immigrant sentiment. So you look at, say, the rates of education and employment of Muslims in North America, Canada and the U.S., and they are at par with the wider community. Whereas in Europe, you know, you're looking at up towards 40 percent unemployment with Muslim youth. You're looking at ghettoization and alienation. So we are looking at a very different atmosphere in Europe where Muslims are being raised than say here in Canada and the U.S.
COSTELLO: Do you think that the magazine, "Charlie Hebdo," realizes that and realizes their brand of satire might hit Muslims in a different way in France than it does in the United States?
NAWAZ: You know, what's interesting to me is, I compared it to when the cartoons came out in 2005. Do you remember the big Danish cartoon controversy, Carol?
COSTELLO: Uh-huh. I do.
NAWAZ: I mean hundreds of Muslims died protesting that. There were embassies that got burned down. And, you know, we had -- Europe lost almost $1 billion in goods from boycotts because the Muslim world was so enraged. And now, 10 years later, the only Muslim that's died because of these cartoons is the Muslim police officer who was trying to protect the cartoonists. So you can see this radical change in 10 years from what happened then and what's happening now and you're seeing, you know, over the -- you know, the entire Muslim world coming in support of the cartoonists and saying this was wrong. Killing these cartoonists was wrong and we support, you know, freedom of -- you know, we may not like these cartoons, but we do not believe that they should have been killed because of them. And so you can see the incredible difference that's happened over 10 years. And what I remind people is that, even in the U.S., if you remember 20 years ago, do you remember Sinead O'Connor took a picture of the pope and ripped it on "SNL Live"? Do you remember that?
COSTELLO: Uh-huh. I do.
NAWAZ: And there was incredible outrage -- yes, do you remember the incredible outrage that the American public had? I mean she could -- her career never recovered.
COSTELLO: No.
NAWAZ: Two weeks later, when she was opening for Kris Kristofferson, she was jeered off stage. And I doubt that Kris Kristofferson had a huge catholic following, right? Because there was a sense in America 20 years ago that you couldn't disrespect public figures in that way. But today, you know, you wouldn't get that response. So I think we also have to understand that sensitivities and people change over time and you have to give people a chance to absorb those changes. And you can see the difference in the last 10 years that you've seen from 2005 to 2015 in the way the Muslim community is responding to those cartoons. I mean they're seeing the demonstrations --
COSTELLO: I understand. I want to -- I want to ask you about a political --
NAWAZ: Yes.
COSTELLO: I want to ask you about a political controversy that's happening here in the United States. The White House is refusing to call what happened in Paris an act of Islamic extremism. Listen to White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest when he's asked about labeling the attack radical Islam.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We have not chosen to use that label because it doesn't seem to accurately describe what had happened. We also don't want to be in a situation where we are legitimizing what we consider to be a completely illegitimate justification for this violence, this terror -- act of terrorism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: Zarqa, does that make sense to you?
NAWAZ: It does. I mean, Muslims are not -- there was no call for vengeance against these cartoonists in the Muslim world. Nobody was saying, you know, go out and kill them. I think, you know, this was a very political decision by a group in the Middle East that's trying to whip up, you know, sentiment among Muslims and try to -- this is very symbolic for them, right? So this was something that was done to provoke, you know, and trying to encourage Muslims to rise up against --
COSTELLO: But the people -- but the people who are perpetrating this, the people who are perpetrating this are doing it in the name of religion, so why not call it what it is, extremism?
NAWAZ: Because the people who are religious are not buying it. They're like, been there, done that, we are not going to be provoked by the cartoons the way we were provoked 10 years ago. And they're overwhelmingly being peaceful and behaving peacefully. I mean Muslims are coming out in France and asking French citizens not to leave for Israel. Going -- we wouldn't be the same country if you guys left. We want you to stay. We want a peaceful country. And you can see that. You can see overwhelming demonstrations of support from Muslims saying we want peace in our countries where we live and where we immigrate to.
COSTELLO: And I do understand that. But I think -- but I think that some people might say it is clear that some extremists, terrorists in the world, are inspired by Islam. And that's just a fact. So why not call them what they are, Islamic extremists?
NAWAZ: Because we never call -- because we never call the same types of incidents as, you know, Christian terrorism. When, you know, Anders Breivik killed 77 children in Norway, there wasn't this huge outcry of Christian terrorism. We didn't attach it to Christianity and yet he did it in the name of Christianity because he was recognized for what he was, someone who was an extreme person. And so we differentiate for other religions but we don't differentiate for Muslims. So it becomes like a double standard.
COSTELLO: All right, I have to leave it there. Zarqa Nawaz, thank you so much for your insight. I appreciate it.
NAWAZ: Thank you.
COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, a major discovery in the Java Sea as AirAsia's fuselage and a wing are finally found and investigators start working with both black boxes. We'll talk about that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: Seventeen days after it entered the Java Sea, the fuselage of AirAsia Flight 8501 has been found. A remote underwater vehicle confirmed the main body of the plane with one of the wings attached is about a half mile from where the black boxes were found. Inside could be 100 or more bodies. Divers will now have to enter the wreckage and search before it can be brought to the surface. This latest discovery comes as investigators start downloading the data from the cockpit voice recorders.
Let's talk about that with CNN aviation analyst and former inspector general for the U.S. Department of Transporation, Mary Schiavo. Good morning, Mary.
MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Good morning, Carol.
COSTELLO: The fact that the plane, the fuselage was found with the wing attached, what does that tell you?
SCHIAVO: Well, it was pretty significant, actually. It suggests to me, since they had found the other wing earlier with one of the black boxes underneath the wing, I think it looks like the plane came down intact. It probably struck the detached wing first and then the rest of the plane settled into the water. The tail section probably came off because, as the plane decompressed, as it hit the water, there would be a tremendous in-rushing of the water and forces on the aft bulkhead of the aircraft. So I think this does suggest it came down in one piece, struck one wing, and then came apart.
COSTELLO: So does that mean that the pilot might have tried to land the plane on the water?
SCHIAVO: I think not. I think probably what happened, and this is the initial weeks -- who knows if this is accurate or not -- but they've already downloaded the cockpit voice recorder and they're saying that they are looking at an aerodynamic stall, that the plane lost its lift and came down.
When that happens, particularly if you haven't had a lot of experience in recovering from a stall, especially in this horrific weather, it would be very difficult to bring that down in an attempt to land it after you've had a stall. Most likely it -- when you encounter a stall, it kind of comes to the earth sort of like a leaf, a fluttering leaf. I don't think they landed on the water. COSTELLO: It's just so terrible to think about. So, divers will go
down first and look inside the fuselage and then they'll try to bring it up. Is that right?
SCHIAVO: That's right. They want to go down, take a look at the fuselage. Now it's very important that they already have the flight data recorder, and I think that will tell them, along with the cockpit voice recorder, the voices of the pilots, will tell them exactly what happened. So I think their first priority is going to see if they can bring up the human remains and get them out without endangering the divers, and they would want to do that first. If they bring up the fuselage with the human remains intact, they risk losing some of the remains or they, you know, risk further damage to the persons, the souls on board.
COSTELLO: But it is important for them to bring up the entire plane at some point?
SCHIAVO: Well, they may not. Since think have both black boxes, what they will be looking for -- if they have their answers in the black boxes, it will be important to search for all the human remains. That's the humane and respectful thing to do.
But once they get that done, and once they have found what they believe are all the remains, they may not scour the ocean floor to bring up all the plane. It's going to be important to bring up the major pieces and they certainly want to find all the humans who were on board, but they may not bring up all parts of the plane. And there's always an issue in these very expensive underwater recoveries of who is going to pay. And in most cases, the airline does not pay. They refuse to pay in many cases.
So I think they'll take the major pieces. They will diligently search for all the human remains, and then they might not bring up every little piece on the floor.
COSTELLO: All right. Mary Schiavo, many thanks as always. I appreciate it.
SCHIAVO: Thank you.
COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, is the term radical Islam inaccurate? The White House says yes and will not use the phrase when talking about the Paris attacks. Is the administration making a mistake? We'll talk about that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: All right, we want to head to Istanbul, Turkey, now. Because a newspaper there had published a photo of the cover of the "Charlie Hebdo" magazine, the new one with the Prophet Muhammad on it. And then the Turkish government cracked down on not just a newspaper but the Internet well.
So let's head to Istanbul and Jomana Karadsheh, CNN correspondent, she's there. Tell us more. JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, a couple of things have
been happening. Now, in the last hour or so, we're hearing from Turkey's semi-official news agency, saying that a court in southeastern Turkey in the city of Diyarbakir has issued an order banning access to websites that have published that controversial cover of the "Charlie Hebdo" magazine. Now, how this is going to be implemented, and what the implications are, are yet to be seen. This is a developing story.
Now, on the other hand, what happened earlier today was Turkey's oldest newspaper, "Cumhuriyet", this is a pro-secular newspaper, decided that they were going to publish. This decision only made public last night, that they were dedicating four pages to some of the latest selection of "Charlie Hebdo" cartoons from this latest edition. And they did print them in today's newspaper.
The editor there saying their chief editor in comments on their website and on his Twitter account, saying that they were doing this in solidarity for freedom of expression, saying that their own newspaper lost journalists to terrorism and they had to take this move in solidarity. But said that, after consultations, the newspaper decided not to publish that cover of the "Charlie Hebdo" magazine. But, however, what they did was -- if you look inside that newspaper, two columns, one op-ed, they did have that cover in black and white, a small publication reprint of that cover inside that magazine.
We are -- of course there's a lot of concern about any sort of backlash, any sort of negative reaction. Turkey of course an overwhelmingly Muslim country and of course any visual depictions of the Prophet Muhammad, as we know, is a very sensitive issue, banned in Islam. And in the last -- shortly we heard from the Turkish deputy prime minister posting on his Twitter account, Carol, really slamming the publication of the images of Prophet Muhammad, as -- saying that those who publish it disregard the sacred, and this is an open sedition and a provocation, Carol.
COSTELLO: All right, Jomana Karadsheh, reporting live from Istanbul, Turkey, this morning. Thank you.
In the aftermath of the Paris attacks, the White House is raising eyebrows at refusing to use the term "radical Islam". Press secretary Josh Earnest says the group are terrorists who tried to invoke a, quote, "distorted, deviant view of Islam" as a reason for their actions.
The NBA legend and practicing Muslim Kareem Abdul-Jabbar agrees.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you are disappointed at seeing the attacks referred to as Islamic terrorism.
KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR, NBA HALL OF FAMER: I am, because people who resort to that type of violence really don't have an ideology other than "Do what I say" and that's what it comes down to. It has nothing to do really with any ideology. People who would resort to violence like that are -- they're not well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: All right. So let's bring back CNN's Jim Sciutto, he's in Paris, and Lieutenant Colonel James Reese, CNN global affairs analyst, he joins me here in New York. Welcome.
Welcome back to both of you. Jim, I actually want to start with you. Is this a surprising move by the administration, Jim?
SCIUTTO: The motivation here is that by calling it radical Islam, you in effect give credit to the claim, terrorists claim, that they represent Islam when most members of the faith will say that that violence has nothing to do with Islam. It's perversion of the faith. We heard it from the White House I have heard that from others as well.
Of course the difficulty is that this is a common phenomenon. It's a problem where people use that justification so it gets down to semantics but behind the semantics is a real argument which to say for vast majority of Muslims, this does not represent Islam. Therefore, don't give them the credit to even use the word Islam in conjunction with them. That's the argument and the White House isn't alone in that argument.
COSTELLO: So, Colonel, there's another part to this argument. There always is, right? So you want to know who your enemy is and you want to know why your enemy is fighting you. So from a military standpoint, isn't it important to call it what it actually is?
LT. COL. JAMES REESE (RET.), CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: At the bottom line, no, it doesn't. I understand what everyone is talking about. I understand where the White House is. And, candidly, I kind of agree with the White House a little bit.
In Northern Ireland, did we call the Catholics and Protestants Christian terrorists? We didn't. That was just the IRA. So, at the end of the day, this is a conversation that can't be done in two- second sound bite. There's a Sunni, there's a Shia issue. These are just bad people. They want to hurt Americans. They don't like what we're doing. From a military standpoint, it doesn't matter. We're trying to help, we're trying to find stability in the region to get everyone coming along. But this has been a thousand-year war.
COSTELLO: And, Jim, it just brings to mind the Pentagon is now calling, what, ISIS "Daesh" because it's a derogatory term. They're sort of taking religion out of the equation as well.
SCIUTTO: It's true. And one thing that the Charlie Hebdo attacks prove is that words and images matter in this debate. If just a simple cartoon -- granted, to some an offensive cartoon -- but if cartoons can inspire violence, clearly we know that religion has as well, or at least people use that as a justification.
The words in this debate, they do matter. So that, as you're trying to find a way forward, there are a whole host of sensitivities here and people use those words to their advantage. And, in fact, the administration has talked a lot recently -- and not just the administration but other terror commentators -- that part of this battle cannot be purely security forces and drone strikes and military action. It has to be getting at intellectual basis of this, having a public debate where you undermine the argument that is used by these terrorists that Islam justifies this.
So it does show that -- and god knows what's happened here in Paris shows -- that that's an important part of this debate. It's not just about guns; it's about ideas. And because of that, words do matter.
COSTELLO: Colonel, I can hear people saying, oh my gosh, here we are being politically correct once again. And we're not even brave enough in this country to call it what it is, because whatever you believe, it is inspired by Islam. It's a sick and twisted thing, but it's inspired by that.
REESE: It is. And what we have to do is find middle ground. Call it what it is. I mean, it's Islamic radicalism, extremism, but at the same time I just came back from there. There's good people there that don't want this. Just like -- they want to be just like we are. So we've got to find it. We can't just -- we've got to quit dancing around the terms and get to what it is.
COSTELLO: All right, thanks to both of you. Jim Sciutto, Lieutenant Colonel James Reese, many thanks.
The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM after a break.
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