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@THISHOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Memorial Grows at Magazine Office; French P.M.: Looking for Possible Accomplices; Netanyahu Says Jews Welcome in Israel; New Developments in AirAsia Search.

Aired January 12, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: I'm curious what people are saying to you, what the tone is like. What is your experience?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You know, it's really been remarkable. It's just about a block and a half behind me where the office of "Charlie Hebdo" is located. That is the satirical magazine where 12 people were massacred just about five days ago now. There is a memorial and people have been flocking here all day. People come to bring flowers and so many people are leaving flowers and I see them leaving with tears on their faces. It's almost as if they need to be here to share in this moment not just on a newspaper and not just on Jews in a grocery store but an entire nation. I'm struck by the need to be part of this collective grief even five days after the attack, even after 3.7 million people took to the streets yesterday.

The mourning period is not over. As all of this is happening, there are key new developments in the investigation.

Our very own Christiane Amanpour just had an interview with the prime minister of France who told her that he believes the French government believes there were accomplices or at least one accomplice in these attacks. They don't know whether there was another trigger person or a driver in the attack but the working assumption is someone else was involved in operational planning and financing and perhaps procurement of weapons. Someone else, they suspect, was involved. Was it this girlfriend of Amedy Coulibaly? It could be someone else. There is a manhunt very much under way in this country. So many new angles to discuss today.

Here in this country, France's Jewish community shaken by these terror attacks. The attack on kosher market in eastern Paris was the worst in anti-Semitic events that led many Jewish families to leave this country. Tomorrow the funerals will be held for the four Jewish victims at that grocery store. More than 4,000 police officers have been sent to secure hundreds of Jewish schools and synagogues across this nation.

Meanwhile, Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, says any Jews that want to go to Israel will be received with open arms.

Joining me to talk about this, Simone Rodan-Benzaquen, the director of the Jewish-American Committee and for the American-Jewish Committee in France.

Thank you for being with us. I appreciate it.

SIMONE RODAN-BENZAQUEN, DIRECTOR, JEWISH-AMERICAN COMMITTEE & AMERICAN-JEWISH COMMITTEE, FRANCE: Thank you very much.

BERMAN: There are 4,000 police who are being deployed to protect synagogues and Jewish schools around the country. Have you been told any information that there is a new direct threat to these locations or do you have a sense that it's just added protection given the environment?

RODAN-BENZAQUEN: I think as far as I know, there's no direct threat. It was very clear from after the murders that the Jewish community could once again be hit so I think it is more generally security measure to be sure the Jewish community feels safe again.

BERMAN: Simone, we've been talking these last five days about the fact that the threat to Jews in this country and threat being felt by Jews isn't new as of Wednesday, Thursday and Friday last week. Jews in this country felt under threat for some time. Explain to me the genesis or the feeling why. Is this because of anti-Israel sentiment or something specific against the Jews in this country?

RODAN-BENZAQUEN: First of all, anti-Semitic acts in France started a long time ago. If you compare the numbers of anti-Semitic acts through the 90s, you would have 70, 80 acts a year. Beginning of the years of 2000, there was a sudden rise for up to 400 acts a year. Probably by end of this year we'll have around 1,000 acts against the Jewish community. including murders. This time, but not only this time even in 2012 and in 2006, a young Jew was murdered by barbarians.

BERMAN: Is this Muslim versus Jew or is this secular anti-Jewish, right-wingish people?

RODAN-BENZAQUEN: In France, we don't have ethnical statistics. That's a problem. We can't identify where it comes from. When you ask the Jewish community and when you dig a little bit deeper, it becomes clear that acts are really perpetrated by Muslims. It's not -- it is the case. It's certainly only a minority but it comes from part of the Muslim community.

BERMAN: It was nice to see everyone on the streets yesterday, Muslim, Jew, Christian, atheist. Everyone out here hand in hand. The prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, he came here and spoke at the synagogue here. He said Israel is open to the Jews of France. Is that a welcome message for you as you sit here as a representative of Jews in France? Do you want Jews to go to Israel or figure out a way to make things better here?

RODAN-BENZAQUEN: It's the second. I would definitely like to find a situation where the situation becomes better for the Jews in France. Jews have been here for 2,000 years. There's no reason they should be leaving. It's welcome to know that Jews can leave and have a choice to go to Israel where they can feel safe and at least make sure that their religion can be practiced without problem and without fear of going to the streets and without the fear of taking children to a Jewish school. BERMAN: You want the solution here, not in Israel?

RODAN-BENZAQUEN: Absolutely.

By the way, I think it's not only because of Jews and because of protection of a minority but it says something larger than that. It says something about trust, about democracy at large. What does it mean if a democracy is not capable of protecting its minorities anymore?

BERMAN: Prejudice of all kinds says something about all of us.

Simone, thank you for being with us. I really appreciate it.

RODAN-BENZAQUEN: Thank you very much.

BERMAN: Michaela, back to you in New York.

PEREIRA: Great conversation in Paris.

John, we'll be back with you in a moment.

Ahead @THISHOUR, they are often the voice of reason amidst fanatic zealots, so why is one "The New York Times" writer blaming moderate Muslims for rise of radicalization, and is he right? We'll have that discussion next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Solidarity in the aftermath of terror, that's what we've been seeing for days after the horrifying attacks in France. Nearly four million people crowded into the streets across France yesterday. Beautiful, beautiful show of force. 40 leaders from around the world also marched along with them.

Some moderate Muslims are speaking out, denouncing violence committed in the name of Islam, but many are asking, should they do more, and what can they do?

Here to help with some of those questions Ahmed Shihab-Eldin, professor, an Emmy nominated journalist and adjunct professor at Columbia University.

Professor, thank you for joining me.

AHMED SHIHAB-ELDIN, ADJUNCT PROFESSOR, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: My pleasure.

I think right off the bat, that crucial question we've been hearing from different corners that moderate Muslims need to be part of this conversation and need to be doing more. What are your thoughts on that?

SHIHAB-ELDIN: That's often where the conversation goes when these kinds of attacks happen. I can tell you it's very unsettling stages you go through as a Muslim or someone part of that community when these attacks happen. First, you think I hope it's not a Muslim, and eventually you realize that Muslims are all kinds moderate, Muslim leaders, often condemn these attacks and continue to do so today. Certain people aren't listening.

This notion of the narrative immediately focusing and burdening Muslims in order to speak out, it speaks to this notion of trying to explore the nature of all Muslims as though we are all involved in this personal struggle against barbarism and what have you. People who call for these condemnations and denouncements are not aware of Google or not paying attention or perhaps watching too much FOX News where hosts constantly are driving this point home, this "us versus them," this point home that Muslims aren't speaking out. Again, the bigger question should be why is it that only Muslims should speak out when these kinds of attacks happen.

(CROSSTALK)

SHIHAB-ELDIN: In Norway, we see Christian terrorists kill however many people or even in Israel when you see extremists kill people, you would say it would be prejudice to expect all Jews or all Christians to speak out against this. I think people who make these calls are bigoted.

PEREIRA: Let's go to one extreme example of that. I don't know if you "The New York Times" writer weighing in on this over the weekend. I'm going to get you to listen to this and get your reaction on the other side. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROGER COHEN, OP-ED COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I do hold Muslims responsible to this degree. I don't think we can solve this problem, Don, until moderate Muslims speak out, saying this is not our religion, this is something we can accept. This is absolutely barbaric. This is the murder of innocents. This is an attack on Western democracies and the freedoms we all stand for. And we are not part of these societies. Until they speak out in that way, I don't think we'll see much progress. That's a responsibility they have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Professor, you hear Roger Cohen say that. I'm curious. Let's say all Muslims around the world unite and say we denounce this. It won't end violence of terrorists.

SHIHAB-ELDIN: Extremism thrives on extremism. To expect all Muslims to condemn this, it perpetuates the clash. Very briefly, I'll say I'm a moderate Muslim if you will. I have a name I share with Prophet Muhammad but also with one of the policemen that was killed. When I saw that fact, it really kind of resonated with me. There's a deep and dark kind of irony. A sinister irony behind the fact that these men who were trying to avenge or believe themselves to be avenging the Prophet Muhammad in his honor killed a man by the name of the prophet. And I think that really just highlights the fact that there's an unfair burden on Islam. PEREIRA: I would like you to come back and talk to us more. There

are so many things to discuss, including some Facebook posts that you have been getting pushback on. You posted a picture of yourself with "je suis Charlie" and you got pushback on it.

We don't have time today, but can you come back another time?

SHIHAB-ELDIN: Sure, of course. Yes, of course.

PEREIRA: We would love for you to come back. Really appreciate meeting you.

SHIHAB-ELDIN: My pleasure.

PEREIRA: Join us here at CNN for a special CNN report, "Double Agent Inside al Qaeda for the CIA" as new terror shocks France. Were the acts of act of vengeance? Go inside the story of risking it all to take down the world's most dangerous terrorists. It's called "Double Agent Inside al Qaeda for the CIA," tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern only on CNN.

Right here @THISHOUR, in the wake of a terror attack, how can we make sure there aren't more radicals running around France or even here in America? What steps must we take to fight a most unconventional foe? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Just into CNN, our Christiane Amanpour just interviewed the prime minister of France, who told her that the working assumption right now inside the French government is that there were accomplices involved in these terror attacks at "Charlie Hebdo," the satirical magazine behind me. Not sure if the accomplices were involved in the attacks themselves or involved in the planning of them, the financing of them, the procurement of weapons. The French government is deploying 10,000 new military forces to keep key locations secure around the country as well as 8,000 additional police personnel. Will it be enough?

Joining me to talk about this, CNN law enforcement analyst, Tom Fuentes; and also Peter Brookes, a senior fellow in national security affairs at the Heritage Foundation.

Tom, I want to start with you. The idea that there could be bigger cells, accomplices still on the loose here in this country. If you were the French government right now, how would you be pulling on these threads? How would you find these suspects?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: John, the first step that they'll be doing is trying to look at every method of communication that the Kouachi brothers and the others involved in this had. They were already aware of the 500 phone calls among the wives. They will look at who else was being contacted and how far back can those phone records go? They may not be able to go that far back in phone records and other electronic communication records such as e-mail and social media to be able to determine that. Assuming that they are looking at that, you know, that's what they would be trying to do is establish the electronic links and during the time they have especially the Kouachi brothers under surveillance, who were they meeting with at that time? Did any other names come up on radar at that point during the coverage they already had?

BERMAN: Congress passed the Patriot Act, giving United States officials more investigative power and greater surveillance power. I talked to French officials here. It's unclear whether there is public will for that kind of increased authority.

Peter Brookes, I want to ask you a side question. We have information that at least one of the Kouachi brothers, in Yemen, knew the underwear bomber. They knew each other and may have lived each other when they were both in Yemen at the same time. So what can U.S. intelligence now do with this information? Can they go to him in prison and say, hey, what do you know about the Kouachis?

PETER BROOKES, SENIOR FELLOW, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: They could. I hope they would. Tom did a good job, John, outlining what they should do in France. The other part is the international perspective, reaching out to the United States, reaching out to other partners to see what they might know and put these things together. Because we found out, so many times in the past, that one country knew something that another country would have liked to have known, whether you're talking about the Tsarnaev brothers or other international plots. It was the mal-intention of not sharing the information. But sometimes the stuff falls through the cracks.

The French need to go beyond France and talk to international partners about what they might know as they try to put together this jigsaw puzzle and prevent a second wave or another attack.

FUENTES: John, if I could add one more comment to that.

BERMAN: Go ahead, Tom Fuentes. Go ahead, Tom.

FUENTES: I dealt with the European police services for in years when I was in the FBI. I ran FBI national operations. I was on the board of Interpol. The reason that those services are very reluctant to share information, initially share information or even maintain information is because these are the countries that were under the Gestapo during the Nazi occupations. And at the end of World War II, they passed the laws saying we're not going to hold information for long periods of time. If somebody doesn't stay on the radar, we're going to purge their files. That privacy issue has something we've been trying to work through for many years. After 9/11, the French became really outstanding partners. They were the first country to provide the U.S. with flight manifests of passengers and give us data, which why is why this guy ended up on our no fly list. That happened because of their cooperation. But the reluctance of Europeans to maintain this information runs very deep and for a long time, since World War II.

BERMAN: A complicated legacy to say the least.

(CROSSTALK) BERMAN: I should add -- hang on, we're going to move on, unfortunately, gentlemen.

I want to thank you so much.

One point I just want to add to button this thing, is that our Pamela Brown is reporting that the man who attacked the kosher supermarket, killing four people, he was on a U.S. terror watch list, the so-called TIDE watch list. How much did the French know? That's one of the situations we'll be investigating further -- Michaela?

PEREIRA: Questions still about where and who that accomplice is.

John, thanks so much.

Ahead @THISHOUR, the flight data recorder located, the cockpit voice recorder located. Now reports that the AirAsia flight exploded upon impact. We'll discuss with our aviation analyst ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: All right. Two major developments today with the AirAsia investigation. The most important clues of all have been found, both of the planes so-called black boxes. One of them has been recovered already. The other development an Indonesian official tells CNN he believes the plane exploded when it hit the water.

Let's go over this with our aviation analyst, Mary Schiavo, joining us on the phone.

Good to talk to you, Mary. Happy Monday.

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST (voice-over): Good to be with you, Michaela.

PEREIRA: Let's talk about where this flight data recorder was found, under the debris of one of the plane's wings. Apparently thrown about a half mile, a long distance from the tail which is where it was housed. Is that a clue to you as an investigator about what happened to this flight? Could there be some veracity to the notion that the plane exploded upon impact in.

SCHIAVO: Well, not explosion in the kind of way you would think of an explosion. It's more like if you think back on experiments that we all probably did in school when we put a pressure vessel underwater. It's best not to think of it as an explosion but rather as the plane hit the water, the forces of the water rushing in to the pressurized cabin. It's only pressurized to 8,000 or 12,000 feet. The water rushing in would have exerted tremendous forces on the tail and the wings. Not the mention hitting water from that altitude is akin to hitting cement. The explosion is more of the plane coming apart, not what we think of as a balloon bursting or a bomb going off.

PEREIRA: Could that explain why there's so much difficulty in locating the fuselage? SCHIAVO: Yes. Because these tremendous forces, when it hit the

water, would have caused them to separate really with great forces. And the distances they're reporting in an accident investigation are really not that far apart. Half a mile, two miles. That's actually -- I know it doesn't sound contained but that's actually rather a contained debris field. It's a matter of time before they'll find the fuselage. But the wings and the tail could have been moved about with the current. But since the block boxes for found near the wing, I think it entered the water intact and then the force of the plane tearing apart and the water and waves moved the wreckage around.

PEREIRA: We saw the officials there loading the flight data recorder, the one they've been able to get. Are you concerned that maybe any of the data could be compromised because of the impact or are they built to with stand a coming apart of an airplane like this?

SCHIAVO: I've looked at every picture I would find online and they look in good shape. They handled them the right way. They transferred them from watt to water to keep oxidation. In the lab is where they'll be properly dried out, the salt water removed, et cetera. That process looks good. That looks OK. I was a little concerned about how they were bringing up the wreckage. They were bringing them up with hooks and ropes. Or you try not to put additional marking in the wreckage. No, it looks like they did the right thing.

PEREIRA: And hopefully, those families will get some answers soon.

Mary Schiavo, our thanks.

Well that's it for us @THISHOUR. Our coverage continues right now with Jake Tapper and Pamela Brown. Have a great day.