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Two Hostage Situations Develop in Paris; Interview with Senator Angus King of Maine; Police Release Pictures of Two Suspects

Aired January 9, 2015 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ALAIN BAUER, SECURITY EXPERT: He's related to the crew that was involved in both "Charlie Hebdo" and the shooting of the policewoman, and now of the two standoffs here north of Paris and in east of Paris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: OK, so that is new information for us. We'll stick with that until we hear otherwise. Yes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to bring our information from the France press. They are reporting according to their sources five people taken hostage in this kosher supermarket. This isn't something we've confirmed. The France press has spoken to police forces. They are getting that number from them. Five individuals held hostage in this kosher supermarket.

CUOMO: Which is consistent with what's going on in the supermarket. If you were to confront somebody in that situation they would have access obviously to a large number of people.

BAUER: That's what they want to do usually is to take as many casualties, as many hostages, and as many publicity as possible.

CUOMO: Now, what does it mean to you that this shooter was contacted in this kind of area in the 12th district in or around a supermarket?

BAUER: I think the third person was identified and was searched heavily by French police, and as the other two, they just found the perfect place to try to escape or to negotiate or to create attention and maybe fully not the casualties.

CUOMO: And what does it mean his efforts to escape didn't take him far away from Paris, that he was staying relatively close to the scene of the crime?

BAUER: Most of those people try to be safe in areas they know and not in areas they don't know. So the first two tried to escape where they were in their first place, Paris, and where they were living in north France and then on their way back. And so it's consistent with usual behavior of those individuals, and this one may be perfectly in this area, in this vicinity in eastern Paris.

CUOMO: He may have been but now he has a lot of trouble coming his way and rightly so. So this is what's going on right now. Just east of us a man is inside the supermarket, that's a picture of the supermarket there. It is a kosher market. We don't know if that's relevant. But he supposedly has hostages, as many as five, that is the word from French authorities.

Let's now go to the other active situation where the two terrorists from the shooting here at the offices of "Charlie Hebdo" are surrounded and holed up in an industrial area. We have Atika Shubert there. That's the building the men are inside. It's a big building. Authorities don't know exactly where, but that's the building they are believed to be inside. Atika Shubert, what do you know from your vantage point?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're about 600 meters way from the building right by a school which is just about to be evacuated. They have got a bus here, police ready to escort them out. The plan is to get them out to a neighboring town where parents can then get their kids and bring them to safety. I think the priority is just to get them out of this general area because we are so close to that industrial park.

There's been quite a bit of police activity just to get to these kids and try to get them out of here. We haven't heard anything from the industrial site itself. It's very quiet. We actually took a walk up there where we could see into that area. It's very quiet. Police have told everyone to stay inside, draw the curtains and just keep locked down inside their homes. So that's where it stands at the moment, so far, so quiet.

CUOMO: All right, Atika, thank you very much. We'll keep checking in with you there, obviously to the extent it's safe. It's very important to be evacuating those kids. Let them get home to their families. Insulate them from any proximity to the area. When it goes down if the men don't surrender, and they said they won't, it will be a violent scene. But that's the situation that they've called themselves to creating the horrible massacre at the offices of "Charlie Hebdo."

Now on your screen is this second developing situation right now that just east of our location here in Paris called District 12, a man who was involved in a separate shooting from the "Charlie Hebdo" shooting when he killed a police officer who was unarmed has now in this kosher market. You're looking at police who are staging there. And we have with us an expert in the different tactics of the French authorities. Alan, what will they do in terms of steps? You said they're going to try to contact this guy, make some kind of dialogue. If dialogue is resistant, then they do otherwise. But how many different teams will you have, and what are the different jobs that are necessary at this point?

BAUER: First you just have one team, one coordinated team. As you know, the French national police is a unified police, and they have two different organizations that deal with hostage situations, Red, which is the French national police, and GIGN, and for the first time ever they're working together due to the sensitivity of the situation and the gravity of the situation.

CUOMO: Who takes the lead?

BAUER: There is one guy in charge. Whoever it will be, it will be the guy in charge on each location. But for the first time they work together. And at this moment, the negotiator is the principle important guy. He will sense if there's a way to get out, if there's no way to get out, if there's a possibility to negotiate the release of some hostages, women, children. There is none in this case but it may have happened. And afterward he will give an option to the chief of team and of course minister of the interior, prime minister, and maybe president of the republic may have the charge of options regarding what the negotiation may give or what the non-negotiation may not give.

CUOMO: So those are the conditions. The hostages we've heard from French authorities they believe there are as many as five hostages inside.

BAUER: Including women.

CUOMO: Women. Do we know if there are children involved?

BAUER: At the moment we know there are women, that' all.

CUOMO: So there are women involved in this. And time, how does time work? When is time in favor of the authorities? When does time become an adversary?

BAUER: Time is always an ally, because you use time to negotiate to discuss to create a link, connection, to open options. It's always a very good ally. It's not very well for communication and publicity, which is obviously what some of the criminals want to have, but it's good for the release of the hostage and it always gives you a better option of saving them from this situation. So time will be a good ally always.

CUOMO: All right, so we're going to keep monitoring this situation. We have one of our correspondents, Jim Sciutto, who is en route to that location. We have two reporters at the second active situation that's going on with the hostage, so we will give you the latest from those. Right now the situations are developing, but quiet, so let me send you back to New York to Alisyn and Michaela.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, great job, Chris. Thanks so much, some amazing information and changes coming in this last hour or so.

We want to turn for some analysis to Wally Zeins. He's a former NYPD detective and hostage negotiator, 30 years with the NYPD, 22 as a hostage negotiator. You're a man to talk to about this very volatile situation in two locations in France, that country on edge right now. Help us understand the primary focus right now for those negotiating teams in both situations.

WALLY ZEINS, FORMER NYPD HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: Well, first of all, it's like a -- hostage negotiating is like walking into the middle of a movie. You don't know the beginning and you don't know the end, so you have to work from there.

And hostage negotiating, we have three negotiators all interchangeable, that's a hostage team within the inner perimeter. There's the primary negotiator, there's the coach, and there's the floater. The primary negotiator will be talking to the person and makes the report and tries to get as much information from him. At the same time the coach is more or less taking notes because he can hear everything that's going on, and they send out a floater who talks with other law enforcement agencies, who talks with family members and brings it back and then the coach deciphers it. And all three of those negotiators are interchangeable.

PEREIRA: I thought it was fascinating you were telling Michaela and me it's no accident you believe that in both these situations, they chose a catering company to the north of Paris and they chose a kosher deli or grocery store. Why?

ZEINS: Food. One of the big negotiating tools that people want is they want to have food, and they want to have food brought in. That's something that they don't have to negotiate for. They have a kosher deli. They'll get whatever they need. They'll have drinks there, water, et cetera. And the other place they'll have food because that's an airline catering place where they make food for the airlines.

And the interesting part is terrorists work in what they call the "theater of terror." Their objective in a case like this is for money, manpower, and media.

PEREIRA: Explain those.

ZEINS: OK, what they want, their theater of terror is set up by the hostage taker is the main actor. The hostage and the police are the --

PEREIRA: Part players?

ZEINS: Part players, and the media is --

PEREIRA: Their broadcasting system.

ZEINS: Broadcasting it all over the world. Now, what makes that even more interesting is they want, their objective is money, manpower, and media to work for them. There are sympathizers who are out there who want to donate money. There are other people out there who want to join. So having those two locations and being able to have food, they could be there for days.

PEREIRA: So now the other disadvantage they have, because you talk about the fact they'll have ample supply of food, water, beverages, even access to facilities like the restrooms, et cetera. One thing they don't have on their side, especially for these two brothers, this is, what, 48 hours or so on, fatigue. And the police have the advantage there because you have all of those resources. Talk to us about how that works, how they change out and bring in fresh bodies so they have the advantage of awareness and energy.

ZEINS: In a hostage negotiation, one that's going to be long-term, the person that's negotiating will stay as long as he or she has to stay talking, and if that person has to, say, relieve themselves, go to the bathroom, or is tired, they'll introduce a partner and say hey, listen, because they've already in the first couple of hours developed the rapport.

PEREIRA: Which is so important.

ZEINS: Which is the most important thing. And what they'll do with trust, trust me, I'm going to go to the bathroom, I'll be right back.

PEREIRA: Does that work with terror suspects?

ZEINS: Sure.

PEREIRA: The same way with a domestic situation?

ZEINS: Sure, because you've already established a trust factor where they believe in you. And talk to my partner, Frank. Frank's just like me, and they'll bring him in. Or they may not want to talk to a man. They want to talk to a man. We have, at NYPD we have every race, creed, and color. And that's basically what would happen. And if the hostage wants to go to sleep, that's even better because we're alleviating deadlines, because if they say I want a deadline or we're going to kill everybody, then we have to start thinking --

PEREIRA: It changes the urgency, obviously. Wally, we're going to ask you to stand by. We want to turn back live to Chris there on the ground in Paris not far from the office of "Charlie Hebdo." Chris?

CUOMO: All right, thank you very much, Michaela. I want to get to Jim Sciutto right now. He's on the phone with us. He's made his way over there. Jim, can you hear us?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: -- hearing now an ambulance siren passed us. It is rushing away from the scene, three ambulances I just counted now. About two minutes I -- rushing away -- police escort. At the same time we're seeing -- of police vans headed in the direction of the shooting. It has taken place at Eperecache (ph) market.

And Chris I've passed someone on a stretcher being led into the ambulance. It's difficult to establish if this is all tied to the shooting but I'll tell you, Chris, we're very close to it and we're seeing police going in and we're seeing am --

CUOMO: All right, Jim, here's what we were hearing from here, if it helps with context. We had an expert here who understands French tactics very well in these situations. Our live pictures of two different squads that seem somewhat apprehensive, they're in a staging area nearby. He said the primary goal was to establish communication, see if negotiations are an option, that the French authorities do say five hostages at least inside, one may be a woman inside, does not know about any children, so that's what we know contextually, Jim. I cannot verify for you if what you're seeing with those ambulances are related to event from the picture of information we have. What else do you see?

SCIUTTO: Police heading in the direction of where this kosher market is. And keep in mind the police are keeping us a safe distance, but we're looking closer. But again police heading in the direction of it, and ambulances heading out. The police have not confirmed injuries from the shooting but there are reports, and I'll tell you the signs sitting here and seeing the ambulances rush away, police escort, seems that it's reasonable to make that connection.

Keep in mind just for our viewers back home, imagine the same situation in an American city. You have two hostage situations on either side of the capital of France, Paris, and you have the police responding --Chris, as you and I discussed already this morning, we're talking about thousands of police responding, but scrambled somewhat. This is a very (AUDIO GAP) they did not know (AUDIO GAP) involve (AUDIO GAP) for the last 24 hours that he is the same shooter who killed a female police officer yesterday. They have not publicly made a connection between this hostage situation and the one taking place near Charles de Gaulle airport.

CUOMO: Right. Now, Jim, what we heard from this person with knowledge of the investigation, he says that French authorities do believe that this shooter, who has taken hostages at that kosher market where you are nearby right now, they do believe that he is related to the terrorists who attacked "Charlie Hebdo" two days ago and have been the subject obviously of the manhunt since then that led them to be isolated in this industrial area east of Paris.

However, whether or not that meant he was a party to this attack or was just part of the cell or a friend of or part of the organization that was not clarified. And again, we'll hold on any reporting that anything that you're seeing there in terms of injuries or ambulance activity is related to the event. We've heard nothing about that.

We had heard similar reports about injuries being connected to the other standoff in that industrial area. French authorities came out and said there have been no wounded to date, none dead, killed in this manhunt yet.

So, let's just hold off and hope for the best. You're seeing K-9 units, this is from earlier. This is not live picture. This was some of the early staging around that kosher market. They have various different types of assets involved to surround the situation and engage whoever is inside. That's what we've been following here.

Jim, how is your connection? Can you still hear us?

SCIUTTO: I can hear you well, Chris. One more thing, we're now circling over the scene of this shooting here and just to your point, the connection that police have established between this suspected shooter at the kosher market and the "Charlie Hebdo" is the suspect apparently suspected of being behind the "Charlie Hebdo," as you say, established a connection but there appears to be a personal connection they somehow knew each other and planned together, so we just don't know at this point.

But I'll tell you, it's just -- the tension in this city right now as you have forces deployed -- and ramped up is remarkable to watch. Yet at the same time I'm seeing people walking around, I'm seeing eating in restaurants, I'm seeing them driving, people keeping their --

CUOMO: All right, Jim, do me a favor. Start sending me some e-mails and texts, let me know what you're seeing there, the phone connection not so great. So if you can't get to a hard line or get a better connection, Jim, just start sending me some e-mails and texts and we'll get you a better line as soon as we can.

Let me turn to Hala.

Hala, Jim was just making a point that is worth broadening out a little bit before we return to New York. This is a metropolitan city, millions of people living their lives. They've never seen anything like this, to have this violence and succession with manhunts and hostages being taken. You live here.

What is this like? What is this going to do to affect the collective psyche here?

HALA GORANI, CNN CORREESPONDENT: I lived here and I lived here in 1995, when there was a series of terrorist attacks against public transport for several days, reminds me a little of that time 19, 20 years ago where every single day brought new, disturbing news about another violent attack against ordinary civilians.

In this case, it's a little bit different in that we, over the last several years, have gotten used to the notion that perhaps there is a threat against Western targets from fighters who may have gone to the Middle East, joined the ranks of ISIS, been trained by al Qaeda, in this case we're starting to hear reports this may be the situation here, although of course over the next few days, weeks and months, all that will become clearer.

But yes, this is a very, very surreal scene. I mean, you're seeing in full combat gear hundreds of security forces going door to door in small, sleepy villages.

CUOMO: Is it like in New York this collective acceptance that, hey, this could happen any time and we have to do things to combat this? Is that level of recognition in place here?

GORANI: Yes, I think so. And you heard from the French president a few hours ago on television, and he had special meetings at the interior ministry today, saying, look, we've known for months intelligence is pointing toward the possibility of this type of attack. Of course, when it happens the question is: (a), how do you respond? And, (b), longer term, what is your response as a question?

All of these are questions that French people will have to answer. But you're right, surreal to see all this and we're hearing police sirens in the background.

CUOMO: Very active situations, what's going on in the industrial park. We don't know what the end is there.

Here we're seeing not too far from where we're stationed right now, that situation just beginning to unfold. So, we'll give you details as we have them.

And as Hala is referring, you know, this is Paris today, but as we know all too well back in the States in New York, everybody is vulnerable, everybody has to be prepared.

So, back to you in New York. I know that you have Senator Angus King there.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We do, Chris.

And also we just got a bulletin, in fact the mayor of Paris just tweeted out she is racing now to the scene of that second standoff to be on hand for whatever unfolds there.

Joining now is Senator Angus King. He is an independent from Maine on at Senate Select Intelligence Committee.

Senator, tell us your thoughts as you watch these two hostage standoffs unfold.

SEN. ANGUS KING (I), MAINE: Well, I think the first thought is that the people in America can identify with and want to express our support and sympathy and encouragement to the people of Paris and the people of France.

We've been here. We know what this feels like. It's a violation. It's painful and I think that's the first thought.

The second is, I've had intelligence briefings over the last 24 hours. I don't have a great deal of additional information to what you are reporting. You're doing a great job bringing us the minute-to-minute coverage of what's going on.

I think the third thing is that there does appear to be a connection between these guys that did this attack and what's called AQAP, the al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, which is essentially based in Yemen.

We know at least one of them traveled there. We know there was some training and this doesn't look like a lone wolf attack. Just the fact that they were carrying AK-47s and not .22s and pistols indicates that this was planned and part of some kind of tragedy. It's tragic and unfortunately it's the world we live in, though, Alisyn.

PEREIRA: Yes, this is Michaela joining the conversation as well. Senator King, we appreciate it. You spoke about the intelligence briefings that you've been a part of and for security reasons, you can't tell us some of the confidential information that was exchanged there but maybe you can give us some knowledge and understanding if there's a revaluation of some of these high priority concerns in the U.S.

KING: Well, there is. This is a case so far the system worked. The point I'm making is that these two guys were on our no-fly list. So, they had been identified and were being tracked, that would have made it difficult for them to get here. But the larger reality is that there's something like 15,000, 15,000

foreign fighters in Syria and Iraq right now. It's a caldron of training that these people can then return to their home countries and this kind of thing is possible.

It's one of the reasons -- people sometimes stop me and say, why are we bothering with the Middle East? Why are we involved over there? Why are we taking -- sending people?

And the answer is that if this place doesn't get calmed down, it's going to be a training ground for these kind of individuals that we're going to see throughout the world and unfortunately most likely here in the United States.

CAMEROTA: Senator, it's Alisyn here.

So, what do you do? What is the thinking in the Senate Intelligence Committee about how to combat people who are radicalized coming here or even who self-radicalize, maybe on the Internet and do these single or double person attacks?

KING: Well, there's been a lot of work how you cope with this and it's got to be a kind of all-of-the-above strategy. It's got to involve good intelligence work, putting the pieces together.

We have the Counterterrorism Center that tracks these kind of movements that links what people are doing when, when they travel and those kinds of things. You've got to do that, you have to have everything from local police to the CIA and military assets.

The other thing is that, you know, we've got to understand that this is not Islam. This is not a Muslim general kind of thing. These people are radicals, they're jihadists. I've seen quotes from Islamic people over the last 24 hours, this is a perversion of Islam. Nobody's god countenance innocent people like this.

So, we've got to be careful not to brand 1.5 billion people worldwide because that could become a self-fulfilling prophecy, if we -- if this becomes a war of the West against Islam, it's a 100-year catastrophe and I think we've got to be careful to say these people are radicals, they're outside the mainstream. And we have to follow them and work with the communities to try to counteract this kind of radical ideology.

PEREIRA: I heard someone yesterday say this is a war on terror, not a war on religion which is an important point to underscore.

Sir, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this. We look at the situation of the radicalized foreign fighters rushing to their homelands. We look at what happened in France. We look at the number of these foreign fighters that are returning by some estimates 100, 150 to France, and we know the numbers are far less here in the United States.

But talk about this notion of the disenfranchised immigrant son, this young person that is not necessarily feeling a connection to country. It's not just about targeting the danger, it's also about keeping further people from being inspired. How do we target that?

KING: Well, I've been hitting, hammering on that in committee meetings and armed services and intelligence the past year and a half. We need a general strategy beyond just killing them and beyond treating them as military targets. We need to talk about why is this happening, why are young men particularly falling for this ideology, and how do we counteract it, how do we work with the more moderate elements within the Muslim community.

Frankly, this is something we still have to, we still are trying to think through. In the meantime, we have to keep our defenses up. We've got to maintain the counterterrorism activities.

But you're absolutely right. The core of this is how do we deal with what I consider the true weapons of mass destruction, which are unemployed 22-year-old alienated men who are -- just have no connection with their society. Part of it is education. Part of it is economic development. Part of it is imparting Western values.

I mean, this is -- what we saw in Paris was a real flash of values, if you will. We take for granted free speech and freedom of expression. There are parts of the world where this just isn't happening.

The thing that bothers me about this, we have people with 14th century -- sort of 14th century world view and ethic with 21st century weapons. Man, that's a dangerous combination.

CAMEROTA: Senator, you were saying it was good news they were on our no-fly list. But, of course, they weren't being surveilled well enough in Paris to prevent something like this from happening these two brothers and the reason is, as we've heard in the past 48 hours, is because there weren't enough resources.

Are you confident that there are enough resources here at home to surveil everyone who should be?

KING: Well, if you're asking me can I give you a personal guarantee nothing like this can happen here, I absolutely cannot do that.

I think as you pointed out, there are fewer of these returning fighters in the United States. I do know that there is a lot of attention being paid trying to track them but, you know, remember what happened up in Boston --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

KING: -- at the Boston marathon.

You know, there's a sort of continuum here between a highly organized al Qaeda attack like September 11th, this which seems to be a little bit less centrally coordinated, although we don't know that yet, and then the lone wolf who, as you say, is self-radicalized, sitting in the basement reading the Internet and decides like apparently the guy up in Canada who decides to go and kill somebody.

So, are we actively, very aggressively following as many of these people as possible? Absolutely. Can we make guarantees, I'm afraid we can.

CAMEROTA: Understood. Senator Angus King, thanks so much for joining us.

We do have some breaking news right now that we want to get to. Let's go back to Chris Cuomo who is live on the ground for us in Paris -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Alisyn. Hala and I are here.

We do have breaking news -- we have new information about what the French authorities believe they are dealing with. OK. They've just released pictures of two suspects they say are responsible for the shooting yesterday that involved a police officer, a female police officer losing her life. You're looking at them right now.

Hala, help me with the names and information in the French press release.

GORANI: You have the 33-year-old you see that man there, Amedy Coulibaly is the name police have released, and a woman, this is actually surprising to me. I didn't know a woman might have been involved or suspected of any kind of involvement in that.

CUOMO: They call her his girlfriend but she's also seen as being connected to the event.

GORANI: Yes, according to this police, this police release -- this release from the police department here in Paris asking people to call in if they know the whereabouts or help with the whereabouts of these two individuals. Hayat Boumeddiene, who is in her 20s and her picture there on the left of the screen.

We don't know if they're connected with anything going on today in the east of Paris.