Return to Transcripts main page

NEW DAY

Hostage Standoff Near Paris Airport; Terror Suspects Prepared to Die as Martyrs; Said Kouachi has Traveled to Yemen

Aired January 9, 2015 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: And I specifically want to talk about that, given the fact there's a hostage situation, these men are surrounded by a very large police presence, on the ground there in France. It's important for them, those authorities that are dealing with this really urgent threat right now, to understand who they're dealing with.

So, talk about the context that we know, that these men have spent some time in Yemen and Syria. What kind of threat does this pose to them right now?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, Michaela, I think that the key part of this is the fact that one of these brothers interfaced with al Qaeda in Yemen, trained with al Qaeda in Yemen. And not just anybody can do that. I think they would likely, this brother was recruited by the group. And perhaps swore an oath of loyalty, then received training in Yemen.

Now, that would have been training in using guns, perhaps bomb-making training, perhaps training in other forms of terrorist tradecrafts. They've been very disciplined in their attacks, who they selected to target. For example, when they went into the newspaper offices, they executed the people involved in that newspaper. And police officers outside, rather than innocent sort of passersby or other civilians, let us clarify.

So, I think they're dealing with perhaps here, a seasoned terrorist, Michaela.

PEREIRA: Well, and it's interesting, you talk about disciplined, but yet improvisation obviously has had to be used here.

Jim, let's bring you in. These men have been on the run. They have arguably been running scared. This is somewhat of a chaotic scene across the French countryside that poses a challenge for these people that are trying to bring this situation to a close, especially when you add the added element of a hostage.

JIM ARKEDIS, FORMER DEPT. OF DEFENSE TERRORISM OFFICIAL: Absolutely. I think Paul is right on to an extent. He talks about how they were trained in Yemen and certainly they knew how to acquire weapons and execute the attack and they had an escape plan and all these things. So, that's certainly an unquestionably speaks to a degree of professionalism. Yet, on the other hand these guys are kind of a wash in contradiction,

right? You have Said, who dropped his national identity card in the car. So, is that incredibly sloppy? Or, another question to be raised is did these guys want the ID card to be found and did they want to be famous? Right?

The other question is they talk about wanting to die as martyrs. OK, fine, but on the other hand, they've taken a hostage and they're trying to prolong the standoff. And so, if they were prepared to die as martyrs, why didn't they just go out and they, quote-unquote, "blaze of glory" in Paris at the time?

They had an escape plan. They had network for a little while to be able to depend on. At this point, they seem to be, as you said a minute ago, they seem to be improvising, and I would guess that they didn't expect to get this far. They didn't expect maybe to survive this far. And then they're off-script.

PEREIRA: Off-script is always that great big question mark of how it plays out from here. Paul, I'm curious to hear your reaction to what the president of France had to say, president Hollande, spoke of this terrorist threat that has existed in France for some time. They've known of planned attacks, but have been able to foil them.

These men were known in France, they were known -- they were on no-fly lists here in the United States. Yet, yet it's impossible or it's a challenge to track these foreign fighters that have returned to their homeland.

Talk about that.

CRUICKSHANK: Well, it's very difficult indeed for the French. They're watching around 5,000 known Islamist extremists right now in France. They don't have the manpower to observe all these people 24/7. They can only observe just a small fraction of them 24/7, 400 nationals from France are believed to be in Syria fighting, 200 are believed to have coming back to France.

So, there's sort of this unprecedented threat from these people coming back, people going, people interfacing with terrorist groups overseas, 50 to 100 French nationals are thought to have gone to Yemen in recent years. Some of them developing connections with jihadist groups like al Qaeda in Yemen there.

It appears one of the brothers, that was his trajectory, that he connected with this group, al Qaeda in Yemen.

A big question is going to be: did he meet the American terrorist Anwar al-Awlaki? There are some reports this morning that he did meet the American terrorist, Anwar al-Awlaki, and al-Awlaki was determined to use French and European recruit, Western recruits, who are back in Europe, and was determined to hit the cartoonists as well. So, a lot of questions about that at this hour, Michaela.

PEREIRA: So very many.

Paul Cruickshank, Jim Arkedis, we're going to ask you to stick with us.

We want to turn back live now to Paris. Chris Cuomo picks up our coverage there -- Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Mick.

We are prepared to die as martyrs -- that is what these two suspects have reportedly told those from the French authorities who are dialoguing with them right now. We believe they have a hostage inside, it is a female. They came to be surrounded and what you're seeing in your television screen right now, they are in a small industrial area northeast of Paris, they are isolated in a building.

They got here after commandeering a vehicle. They've been chased throughout the night. They are still believed to be armed.

And while they are saying they are preparing to kill themselves as martyrs or to be a martyr, they have not done that to this point when they have many opportunities, one more piece in a mixed message that we have received from these suspects through the authorities.

Now, we have new information about what they may have done during this hijacking, commandeering of this vehicle.

Jim Sciutto, what did you hear?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: So, the driver of this car when they hijacked yet another vehicle this morning, he was interviewed and he said they told him as they kicked him out of the car, tell the media we're al Qaeda in Yemen.

So, this is similar to what one of the eye witnesses to the shooting yesterday said, as they were running away, they said, tell the media we're al Qaeda in Yemen.

This, of course, matches up with what U.S. intelligence has been hearing from their French counterparts that they believe the older brother, I should say, Said Kouachi, traveled to Yemen in 2011 and trained with al Qaeda in Yemen.

So, yet another tie to a group which as we -- you know, when I speak to U.S. counterterrorism officials, I say what are the two groups that worry you the most and they said al Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula and they said the Khorasan, which is, of course, they've been targeting in Syria, because they know that al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula not only targeting France but has its sights set on the U.S.

CUOMO: And also, that would explain that tight bullet pattern, the way he moved when he executed the police officers, that did speak to some kind of training.

SCIUTTO: No question, you remember looking at that video, just the way they held their weapons, the way they moved. They were not panicking, they moved as a pair. There were situations where one was covering the other with fire. You saw the tight groupings of bullets, you saw the way when he killed

that poor police officer on the ground -- one the former Delta force commander said he noticed he used single shots, he didn't have it set to automatic, which would have indicated someone who might have been a little bit jumpy on the trigger. This was a guy was under control.

CUOMO: And al Qaeda, of course, did have members of "Charlie Hebdo" staff on a wanted list, rights? They did have their pictures for years. There was a firebomb attack here at the offices here in 2011. So, there is a consistency there.

HALA GORANI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. The editor, Stephane Charbonnier, otherwise known as Charb, one of the cartoonists, was on that wanted dead or alive list on "Inspire" magazine, which is the al Qaeda publication.

So, this is -- and he's the one who had the personnel security detail and his police officer, protection officer was killed as well in that massacre. So, yes, indeed, this was a very well-known target. And as we were discussing earlier, that's going to have to be a question out there for authorities, why there wasn't more security in front of this building.

And you're talking about al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, that's, of course, Yemen. The justice minister to CNN yesterday confirming as well that the younger of the two Kouachi brothers visited Yemen in 2005. So, there seems to be some consistency in the relationship between these suspects and al Qaeda.

Al Qaeda, which, of course, as you we all know and many of our viewers know encourages people to claim responsibility for attacks against journalists, cartoonists and the like.

CUOMO: Well, as does is, but it feeds into something, Jim, which we're seeing, this kind of demented competition between terror groups to be among the mainstream who is creating the most violence.

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: To have the most influence over those kinds of people who are influenceable.

The last time that al Qaeda in Yemen turned newspaper France was the underwear bomber, because he took off from here. And he was trained up in Yemen. And we've got to think, I think we've got his underwear bomb in Yemen and took off from here, headed to the United States.

SCIUTTO: This is a sick game, right? They thrive on not only for recruiting, but for their sense of power, on killing. How well they can kill, and recently a lot of the oxygen has been sucked out of the room by ISIS, all the success they've had in Iraq, recruiting foreign fighters, you hear it as some degree of AQAP saying, we're here, look at us, look what we can manage.

Now, there's been some cooperation between these groups, we don't know that. So, you know, they're not necessarily at loggerheads but there's a competition for attention. CUOMO: ISIS had been asking for people to go off, soliciting the lone

wolf. The disenfranchised, the disaffected, the mentally ill perhaps, go do something on your own, just say you're doing it for us, but no real connection to them.

This, however, this al Qaeda outfit, AQAP, taking someone, training them, bringing them back. As I understand it, this is a high-level consideration, certainly for U.S. authorities in terms of people going away, learning how to be real fighters, and now coming back and creating havoc.

SCIUTTO: Absolutely, remember, the principle concern with AQAP from U.S. counterintelligence to this point had been sneaking explosives on to airplanes, right? The underwear bomber, this famous bomb-maker, that was the intelligence they've been focusing on.

This opens up a new front in effect -- training fighters, sending them to the west to carry out attacks.

GORANI: I think what's frightening I think for people here is that the lone wolf, self-radicalized, perhaps we might have seen it in Ottawa, as well in Sydney, in that Linn cafe hostage crisis as well. In this particular case, there's a higher degree of organization. And I think at this point it's the idea behind the attack is the same. But the toll is much higher. We're looking --

(CROSSTALK)

BITTERMANN: I was going to say, is the French authorities have been worried about this idea of people coming back.

CUOMO: Well, they have a lot of people. They have a disproportionate number of foreign fighters.

BITTERMANN: And they have a lot of young people who are disaffected, who could be under the influence of either ISIS or al Qaeda. And we've done stories about this, about the parents that are distraught to see their sons and daughters either self-radicalizing or being recruited actively. Plane tickets paid to turkey. So they can get across the border to Syria. And be trained. The authorities are just absolutely panicked.

In fact, have said before Christmas, the prime minister said this, about people coming back, slipping in, speaking perfect French as these guys did here, and passing for French. And as such, being able to come in under the radar, and disappear as these guys sorts of did.

GORANI: But, Jim, they're not passing as French, they are French. They were born in France. They are not pretending to be French.

And I think these groups, these ISIS groups, these al Qaeda groups that give identity, that provide a sense of identity to young, probably mentally deranged people, who don't feel like they have an identity or a sense of belonging in a group. That is where the real danger lies.

SCIUTTO: The figure here is 1,000 foreign fighters in France, either who have gone or attempted to go.

CUOMO: How does that compare with the U.S.?

SCIUTTO: The figure in the U.S. is a dozen. A factor of 100.

CUOMO: If they're right.

SCIUTTO: Imagine if -- well, exactly. It could be higher, but still in the realm of two digits, right?

So, imagine the sense of alarm in the U.S., if that figure increased by a factor of 100, and you know, that gets to it.

The other thing is, you know, about mentally deranged. I think that what when you talk to some counterterror officials, they'll say these folks aren't necessarily crazy. They're making conscious decisions, misguided decisions, but conscious decisions, and that's one of their worries, right? You don't have to be a nut job.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: There's no question. One of the things, one of my sources has been plying me with throughout this process is, you know, make sure you show to your viewing public, look at what they do. You know the idea that these acts, these massacres are a calling card, somehow a recruitment tool.

Look at what these people did. Look who they attacked, look how they did it. Look how disorganized, look how fumbling they are.

You know that these are not superheroes. That these, that these men are you know, that this, there's a cowardice involved and they can say they don't want to hurt women. But they have terrorized everyone they can.

GORANI: I think we need to underline the so-called defenders of the Prophet Muhammad, the last person, they executed in the street was a Muslim.

CUOMO: The police officer.

GORANI: The police office who's first name is Ahmed. So, therefore, the so-called defenders of the faith have no problems killing Muslims and it is the case in the Middle East, too.

SCIUTTO: It was only a couple of weeks ago we were covering the attack in Pakistan, right when they killed dozens of Muslim children, right? So, this is -- any idea, the identity is so skewed, the sense of the cause is so skewed. But it has appealed and it has very broad appeal. That's the concern.

CUOMO: U.S. intelligence officials say something that was counterintuitive to me, not only do they want to kill perceived enemies on the terrorist agenda. However, they are also trying to create a rift within Islam itself. Very often there's a call for moderate Muslims, come out, condemn these people. But the extremists want a rift within Islam and they want the West and they want the civilized and the peace-loving people to be afraid of Islam, because that feeds their own narrative, that they are being victimized by the rest of the world. It's very sophisticated negativity in play.

SCIUTTO: No question. Remember, their sense of who is a Muslim, who isn't a Muslim is skewed as well. You can be a Muslim and they say, if you don't follow their crazy interpretation and violent and frankly medieval interpretation of the faith, then you are just as much a target as I am as a Christian or someone else is.

So, it's -- you know, this is the thing when you talk, it's a very sensitive issue with many Muslim leaders with being called constantly to condemn these attacks, right? When many of them will say, that's a reasonable expectation from some. But many of them will say, why do we have to defend you know, not defend, why do we have to condemn these crazies? That should be understood.

GORANI: That you have to apologize for the acts of the few. You hear that as well.

BITTERMANN: We've heard moderate Muslim leaders here speak out in the last couple of days. The same way they're speaking out in moderate tones, often the same ones under threat. They get threats from their own folks.

BERMAN: But it winds up being circumstantial. The -- of course, it's perverse, it's bastardized, it's misplaced, but they are using the language and the ideas of a religion in furtherance of their own violent means, the terrorists. So, it does put, if not an onus, a somewhat of a pressure on moderates and people who believe they are true believers of the faith to distinguish themselves, because to the uninitiated it seems like, they're just doing what Muslims are supposed to do.

SCIUTTO: And that is criticism that you will hear from within Islam, in the Middle East, it's not just folks from the outside saying, hey, why aren't you doing this? You will hear this from prominent commentators inside Islam saying we as a faith have to speak up and stand up to it.

And yes, there is a risk. I was in London for a number of years there were constant demands for London imams to condemn terror. And many of them were fearful about reprisal attacks. But other was say you have to stand up. Because this is the only way our faith can move forward.

Remember, when you look at the folks at "Charlie Hebdo," they were not Muslims, but they took a tremendous risk in speaking out.

CUOMO: Right.

GORANI: But one of the things that people forget is when the so- called moderate Muslim leaders, we heard from Al-Azhar mosque, for instance, in Egypt, which is the seat of Sunni Islam, these people who are members of groups like ISIS in al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, do not see them as authority figures. So, they can say whatever they want all day long. People who are members of the groups and determined to fight jihad,

are not going to listen to them. So, yes, it's a nice sentiment, but will it have impact? These figures have much more authority over their followers.

CUOMO: Right. But, ultimately, hopefully, what has the greatest impact is what we're seeing right now. Right now, we have two men who have, in an act of extreme cowardice, after killing the innocent and terrorizing people who have no ill will toward them until their recent actions, they've take an woman hostage and are sealed in a building, saying they're willing to die as martyrs in refusing to give her up.

Alisyn, Michaela, back in New York. That is the latest. As we get developments from the scene, we'll bring them to you.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Of course, you will, Chris. Thanks so much.

We want to bring in right now, Gary Noesner. He's a former chief of the FBI crisis negotiation unit. And he's the author of "Stalling for Time." He's on the phone for us this morning from Roanoke, Virginia

Mr. Noesner, thanks for being here.

GARY NOESNER, FORMER CHIEF OF FBI CRISIS NEGOTIATION UNIT: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: Where do you begin with suspects like this?

NOESNER: I think the important thing to look at is the behavior. What they're doing is, they're fleeing from the police, and they're trying to keep from being caught. That's why they're holding a hostage. In this case, not to press a demand, but to shield themselves from police intervention.

So, on the one hand, they say they're willing to die. But by holding a hostage, you're also saying to the police, I don't want you to hurt me.

So, the police are really going about their business in the appropriate way. They're isolating the situation, containing it in a smallest possible area and keeping a dialogue open. As this is the most proven method to which they can secure the safe release of the hostage. So, that's pretty classic, you know, conduct that we're seeing from the police.

CAMEROTA: So, once you know this, about the suspects, that they really don't want to be caught or they don't want to die, or they would have exercised different actions, then what exactly do you say to them?

NOESNER: Well, I want to clarify a little bit. To say you want to die and be willing to die -- you know, it's more complex than most people think. I'm not suggesting that they won't, at the end of the day, harm hostage or commit suicide. But I don't think we need to automatically conclude that's what they will do. The longer this goes on, the more dialogue that the police are able to

engage in, it increases the likelihood that the hostage will come out of this alive. So that's their objective right now. They're buying time. They're trying to slow the situation down and getting these guys to a point where they think a little bit more clearly about their options.

CAMEROTA: And when you're a hostage negotiator, do you make deals with guys like this?

NOESNER: Well, in this case the deal with, you know, surrender or die. The French I'm sure are not going to consider allowing these guys to take their hostage and leave or, or submit to any other significant demands that they might have. They might exchange food or do something else like that. But that's about the limits of what we would expect to see.

CAMEROTA: In your history, and experience with this, when people claim that they want to go out as martyrs, as they two did, do you negotiate differently with them?

NOESNER: Not really. Again, it's pretty classic for folks in this type of situation, terrorists to say, you know I'm willing to die, you don't scare me, you try to come in here, get me, I just as soon kill myself. You hear all these kinds of things.

But it's pretty inherent in human beings that despite saying that, maybe even politically believing that, there's still a natural desire to survive and to live. And so, one might say these guys are ambivalent. Part of them may want to die, but part of them wants to live and that's the part that the police are trying to appeal to.

CAMEROTA: In your experience, how long do these things generally last?

NOESNER: Well, I mean it could last hours it could last days, days and beyond. There's really no clear pattern to this that.

And it is fatiguing, these guys have been on the run for a couple of days. They probably have not had much rest. They've been evading police, had some confrontations from the public sector.

You know, I would expect them to be pretty tired and exhausted perhaps. So, that -- that's a factor that's going to come into play as well.

The French are very well-trained, I've worked with the French negotiators, they're quite competent and I'm sure they'll do an excellent job in doing all they can to resolve this peacefully.

CAMEROTA: In your experience, knowing what you know about these two suspects and how all of this goes down, is it possible for this to end well?

NOESNER: Yes. I mean it's certainly possible. And we've seen this in many other cases, where they finally come to the conclusion that perhaps surrendering and having their day in court to some extent may further their cause or, you know, make them martyrs in a different sort of way.

It's just difficult to say. I'm not inside the heads of these two fellows and we don't know what their thinking is. But I would suggest to you that again the longer it goes on, the more favorably it tends to be, although that's not an absolute.

CAMEROTA: Of course, that's interesting and we appreciate your experience and you sharing it with us. Gary Noesner, thank you.

NOESNER: You're welcome.

CAMEROTA: We're going to take a very short break and have more of our continuing coverage of this dramatic hostage standoff with the Paris terrorists, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CUOMO: We are live in Paris, outside the office of "Charlie Hebdo", but the action has moved elsewhere, northeast of Paris. Let's tell you how we got to where we are right now.

The current situation is that the suspects have been cornered in an industrial building. That's what's on your screen right now -- industrial town northeast of Paris. They are concentric circles. Different wavers of authorities.

The most important part is that you do have the elite French SWAT team, which is a military outfit. They have he situation under control. They are in dialogue with the suspected terrorists.

We also understand that the two men have a hostage. It is a woman. How did they get to here? This man was very active overnight. There were surveillance in the air, helicopters, caught sight of the men in a car.

They believe the men knew they were under surveillance, they abandoned the car. They took to the woods on foot. The woods were searched, they were not found overnight. They were using infrared, and night vision to try to find the men in surrounding fields, they kept moving, the search obviously unsuccessful.

Early this morning, the men commandeered a car. There were discussions at that time we'll report to you, they took the car, were chased into the area where they are now.

We're told time is the precious commodity. Authorities feel it is on their side. The suspects have told them, the terrorists have said they are prepared to die as martyrs and they will not surrender the hostage. Authorities believe perhaps optimistically, hopefully, that with time and exhaustion, that may change their disposition.

They also point out that it proves there is no planning. These are not seasoned professionals. They may have received training in Yemen, one of them in how to shoot, which explains the bullet patterns and the coolness while killing police officers and others.

But they didn't have a plan. They don't have a cell helping them to do anything that is intelligent or responsible and that's why they have been running frantically through the night and have gotten themselves into the situation where they are right now.

Now, this commandeering of the car is very important. Jim Sciutto, you reported that they said to the driver, tell them, meaning us, we are al Qaeda from the Arabian Peninsula. They also told them why they were doing this. Why?

SCIUTTO: They also told the driver that we're doing this in revenge for the killing of Anwar al-Awlaki, you remember the American who is the head of al Qaeda in Yemen -- in Yemen, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, killed in an American drone strike a number of years ago. And remember, it's the French authorities believe and U.S. authorities believe the older brother went to train in Yemen with al Qaeda in 2011.

So, another comment from the attackers making that direct connection, because remember, two days ago when the shooting happened they told another eye witness tell the media, we're al Qaeda in Yemen. So they are advertising that fact and now making the connection to Anwar al- Awlaki.

CUOMO: And, of course, it could have been false boasting. However, Hala, we know, as Jim was saying, one of the brothers did train in Yemen and "Charlie Hebdo," members of their cartoon staff had been wanted people by that terrorist organization.

GORANI: That's correct. And we know that the younger of the two Kouachi brothers spent time in prison here in France. He was convicted of trying to recruit people into a terrorist organization. So, this was someone well known to authorities before any of this went down. As Jim has been reporting and we've been reporting as well, according to a member of parliament in French television, the two brothers saying we're prepared to die as martyrs.

CUOMO: Now, we're fortunate to have some of our very best in Paris helping me out to explain the situation to you. We also have I believe one of the only U.S. reporters at the scene. We have Fred Pleitgen who was there.

Fred, are you able to hear us?

FRED PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I'm actually able to hear you, Chris, I'm at scene right now, as close to the scene as the police is going to get -- let us go. We're in the village where all of this is taking place, as we said, there's a large police cordon going on right now. There's a search going on, large parts of the area are cordoned off as well.

However, we are very close to the building where all of this is taking place and with me right now, I have an official from the area, his name is Michael Touitou, and Michael speaks French, so we have our own Arianna to translate for us.

Thank you very much.

ARIANNA, TRANSLATOR: You're welcome.

PLEITGEN: Michael, tell me what happened here this morning?

MICHAEL TOUITOU, FRENCH OFFICIAL: (SPEAKING IN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

PLEITGEN: So, he saw a helicopter?

ARIANNA: He didn't really know what was going on and then he saw in the news that this was happening in this city where he works. So he's very worried, he saw helicopters surrounding the city and now, he's waiting to have extra information.

PLEITGEN: How far is the building where all of this is taking place, away from where we are? And do you know the people who work there?

TOUITOU: (SPEAKING IN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

PLEITGEN: So, about 500 yards away?

ARIANNA: Exactly, it's just behind where we are now.

PLEITGEN: And do you know the people who work there?

TOUITOU: (SPEAKING IN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE)