Return to Transcripts main page

CNN TONIGHT

Female Terror Suspect on the Run

Aired January 9, 2015 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: A remarkable day, Anderson. Thank you very much. We're going to get you to walk us through in just a moment. Stand by.

Our breaking news. One terror suspect, a woman on the run after twin raids in France today. The first killed the brothers authorities blamed for the "Charlie Hebdo" massacre. The second the alleged hostage taker at a kosher store in eastern Paris.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

LEMON: Want to get back now to Anderson. As he said it's been a stunning day of developments in and around Paris.

And, Anderson, you have been covering at least the standoff and then the capture and the killing. All day. Walk us through it.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, AC360: Well, most importantly the manhunt continues right now as you know for the fourth terror suspect, the female who -- the girlfriend, believed to be girlfriend, of the third terror suspect, the man wanted in connection with the killing of a French policewoman on Thursday morning. She is also wanted in connection with the killing of that French policewoman, the wounding of another police officer in the same incident Thursday morning.

The man took over the kosher supermarket many hours ago here on Friday. And ended up getting killed in that attack as did the two Kouachi brothers who were held up, about 25 or so miles from the supermarket in a -- in an industrial park, in a printing shop. It all played out in front of the cameras for several hours today.

Let's take a look back on the day that was.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): Tonight the voice of a terrorist explaining what he'd done to a reporter from a French television station.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER (Speaking in foreign language): Do you have a scenario in mind?

AMEDY COULIBALY, SUSPECT (Speaking in foreign language): No. We just synchronized for the beginning. They started Charlie Hebdo and I started with the policemen.

COOPER: That was the voice of Amedy Coulibaly, holed up with at least 19 hostages and surrounded by hundreds of police at that Jewish supermarket in Paris. He would end up dying tonight in a furious assault. All caught on camera.

Coulibaly and his 26-year-old girlfriend, Hayat Boumeddiene, were already wanted for the killing of a policewoman a day earlier. Her whereabouts are still unknown.

Trapped inside the print shop 25 miles away, the Kouachi brothers, who began the slaughter on Wednesday at the offices of "Charlie Hebdo" also felt the urge to talk.

This is Cherif Kouachi on the phone with a radio reporter.

CHERIF KOUACHI, SUSPECT (Through Translator): We are just telling you that we are the defenders of the Prophet Mohammed. I was sent, me, Cherif Kouachi, by al Qaeda in Yemen.

COOPER: Events at both locations began unfolding at dawn. At an industrial park not far from the city's main airport, police say the brothers entered a small print shop. In the early morning rain and fog, police chased them down. Just after 8:00 a.m., a salesman there told a French radio station that he saw one of the terrorists dressed in black and heavily armed. He didn't realize it was the "Charlie Hebdo" gunmen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (Through Translator): I suppose he was a terrorist. I didn't really know him. I took him as an armed policeman.

COOPER: Once surrounded French Police reached them by phone and they reportedly said they were ready to die as martyrs. Hours later the assault began. Soon, both Cherif and his brother Said Kouachi were dead. Several minutes later outside the kosher supermarket police began to mass for the assault.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Multiple shots. Automatic fire. And it's continuing. Another explosion.

COOPER: Inside, Amedy Coulibaly had earlier demanded the Kouachi brothers be allowed to leave the print shop. Remember he told the television reporter their mission was, quote, "synchronized." Authorities say Coulibaly was the same man involved in the killing of a French policewoman Thursday morning.

Coulibaly was killed in the assault and Israeli sources say four civilians' bodies were found inside.

At a speech in Tennessee, President Obama talked about the aftermath.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And the streets of Paris, the world has seen once again what terrorists stand for. They have nothing to offer but hatred and human suffering. And we stand for freedom and hope and the dignity of all human beings. COOPER: France's Interior minister said that the nation is relieved

tonight but the manhunt for a female suspect continues.

(END VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: And that manhunt still, as I said, Don, very much under way. This is the largest manhunt that we have seen over the last several days in French history. Some 88,000 personnel involved in it. And it is very intense now for this female suspect.

LEMON: Anderson, what more do we know about this female suspect? Do we know anything more, being, about -- except for being his girlfriend and becoming radicalized?

COOPER: Well, she's had a several year relationship, we believe going back as far as to 2010 with the man who took over the -- the supermarket. Much more than that, we really do not know. We don't know exactly her role, her operational role in this, police say, she was involved in the killing of that French policewoman and the shooting of the police officer. But exactly which one of them pulled the trigger we do not know.

She is obviously still considered armed and dangerous. And frankly, law enforcement is looking at anyone else who may have been part of this, what now appears to be, a cell, which has been operating here certainly publicly over the last several days. But at least which has links to each other going back in some cases more than 10 years here -- Don.

LEMON: All right, Anderson, stand by.

I want to bring in now CNN's Jim Sciutto, just a short distance from the scene of the siege in the kosher market. Frederik Pleitgen is also with us. He is in the town of Dammartin-en-Goele where the suspect in the "Charlie Hebdo" attack were killed today.

Jim to you first. You were near the kosher grocery store when the raid was going on. Tell us about what happened.

SCIUTTO: I'll tell you. Explosions of -- first explosions that -- rapid gunfire in the span of minutes just after the raid took place northeast of Paris. We've been watching the tension build all day with those tactical police units. Surrounding that kosher market. And then they went in without any warning.

I have to say, having been to Iraq many times, Afghanistan many times, I'm used to that kind of gunfire. Those sorts of explosions. I did not expect it to hear it here in the streets of Paris.

Here's the moment as it was happening, as it unfolded on CNN's air.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Now I'm hearing gunfire. Multiple shots. Automatic fire. I'm going to stop speaking there just so you can hear it as well as I am. It's continuing. Another explosion. This all happened about 300 yard from where we are at this kosher market.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Of course that all ended with the gunmen in effect charging that police tactical unit killed there. And then sadly police concluding that four hostages had died. They say not in that exchange. Not during the raid. But earlier when the hostage taker, when the terrorists took over that kosher shop. So, you know, the operation up in northeast of Paris seemed to go according to plan. This one, unfortunately, with more casualties.

LEMON: And, Jim, you know, we're now watching that video. Was just up of the police rushing in and hostages are running out during the raid. Is the fact that this woman would be able to escape difficult to imagine in that situation?

SCIUTTO: As you watch that video, and I'm sure you feel the same way, Don, it's hard to imagine those circumstances. At this point it is only the police union which has said they believe she took that opportunity during the confusion to escape, perhaps when the other hostages managed to get out. As we watch that video, it seems difficult to understand. And of course, the Interior Ministry here and others have not confirmed that they believe that she escaped.

But one thing that is clear as you watch that video, we have this impression that these highly trained units when they go in, that everything goes according to plan. But really experience shows that once you have that first contact, that plan disappears. There is always an element of chaos there. So you have to allow for the possibility that you manage to get away.

LEMON: Jim, we know about the male suspects, that they were killed. What do we know about the hostages? You said four of them died.

SCIUTTO: It's the belief of French authorities that those four who did die in there that they died earlier in this hostage taking when this attacker, when this terrorist took over that kosher market. The police say it didn't happen during the exchange of fire during the raid. And in fact when we look at that video, there, as the police were entering, you could see at least one body visible on the ground.

Look, unfortunately that man was already deceased when those police went in. Hard for us just from looking at that video to know that the three other hostages who died were already dead. But that is what the president of France said during his own announcement on national television here that those hostages died earlier during the hostage taking.

LEMON: Yes.

Frederik Pleitgen, the kosher grocery store was a place both Muslims and Jews frequented.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you're absolutely right. You know, one of the things that we keep talking about, Don, as this coverage unfolded, is that of course France has one of the largest Muslim populations, of any country, in Western Europe, about 10 percent of the people in France are Muslims. But they actually also have a very large Jewish community. And what we have to know about the area where that kosher grocery store is, is that it is an area where both Muslims, as well as the Jews are together.

And you're absolutely right. During the time of that siege, at any point in time there could have been Muslims in there, Christians, and of course Jews as well. And if you look at that, the grocery story, it is actually one that is very big and of course has a wide array of items and therefore people of all faiths and of all sorts of other nationalities even considering that Paris is such a cosmopolitan city would have been there.

What you have also in that area, in other areas, as well in Paris, as well as in France in general is that you do have Jews and Muslims living together in a very peaceful way. However, that equilibrium if you will is challenged at this point in time. Not only by these events but of course also by a string of anti-Semitic attacks that have been going on in the weeks and months of 2014 especially where they're seen a large increase in these kinds of things -- Don.

LEMON: And as a result of what happened today, synagogues are closing in Paris?

PLEITGEN: Yes, absolutely right. And it really is a troubling sign, if you will. One of the things that happened as a result of that siege and that raid that happened there is that the grand synagogue of Paris closed down for the first time on the Shabat since World War II. So that's how big an event that is and it really is something where the Jewish community of Paris is coming out and saying they are very worried about what is going on there. They're very worried about Jews and Muslims living together in France.

In fact, they say that the level of anti-Semitism has become so bad in France that many Jews are choosing to leave the country and that certainly is a troubling sign not just for Paris and France but certainly for all of Europe, and something that many European politicians are thinking about at this point.

LEMON: Anderson, I want to ask you about the State Department because they issued an update of worldwide caution, and they're asking U.S. citizens to maintain a high level of vigilance and take appropriate steps to increase security awareness in light of the attacks in Paris.

What are you hearing about the fear of copycats and more attacks?

(CROSSTALK)

PLEITGEN: Well, it's very big. The fear of copycats is something that is very big.

LEMON: That was for Anderson but that's OK.

PLEITGEN: And one of the things that you can see here in -- I'm sorry.

All right. Go ahead, Anderson.

COOPER: Well, obviously, there's always a concern, whether it's -- whether you want to call them copycat attacks or other potential cells that may be out there, that may be wanting to go operational or self starters or even what you might call lone wolves wanting to carry out attacks. Get some attention and try to continue this.

There are also real questions remain about, are there other members who have connections to the three terrorists who have been killed as well as the fourth suspect who is still on the loose? Are others out there wanting to now continue some of the kind of attacks we have seen over the last several days?

That's something obviously French officials are very concerned about. Are very closely monitoring. And trying to investigate as they try to learn as much as they can about the movements of all of these suspects over the last 24, 48 hours -- Don.

LEMON: Fred, you want to add something to that?

PLEITGEN: Yes, absolutely. You know, one of the other things that officials here have been worried about for a very long time, and we have to keep in mind that France specifically is a country that has seen a lot of its citizens go to fight in places like Iraq and Syria. Of course, it's still a very small proportion of the Muslims in this country but it is the country in Western Europe that has seen the most of its citizens go there.

And of course they're worried about these people coming back. They're battle hardened. They've probably seen things on the battlefield that have also made them less reluctant to take lives. And one of the things that we've heard intelligence services say is that they saw something like this coming for a very long time. They feared that something like this would happen. And so certainly they fear that something like this could happen again.

Now that the people have seen this happen, as Anderson was talking, they fear copycats. But also they do have an influx of people that are coming back from battlefields, in places like Iraq and Syria, who know how to deal with weapons and who certainly are very much -- wouldn't say willing, but certainly have possibly killed before on battlefields in those regions. And that's something that is a very troubling sign not just in France but in all of Western Europe -- Don.

LEMON: Thank you, gentlemen. Stand by. A lot more to get to tonight on our breaking news.

A female terror suspect on the run in France tonight after three male suspects are skilled by police.

Plus the shocking conversation today between one of the suspects and a French journalist.

And are there more attacks to come? How do we keep the bloodshed from spreading across the world?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Tonight Paris famed monument, the Arc de Triomphe, sporting the phrase "Paris est Charlie," in memory of those killed at "Charlie Hebdo" magazine.

Let's go back now to Paris. Anderson Cooper is there with more on our breaking news. Information about a female terror suspect on the run in France and more.

Tonight, Anderson, a show of solidarity in France. What are people saying about today's violence?

COOPER: There has been -- there have been just remarkable shows of solidarity over the last several days. And solidarity and real defiance, too. We have seen tens of thousands of people gathering in Paris, all throughout France. We've seen similar scenes in Amsterdam, in Berlin, in London, all throughout Western Europe, spots in the United States as well.

I mean, the location I'm at right now is just one of several makeshift memorials which has sprung up. This one just several blocks from the offices of "Charlie Hebdo" where this massacre took place on Wednesday.

And, Don, on Sunday, what is shaping up to be a huge rally, a huge show of defiance by people here in Paris, world leaders from another -- a number of Western European countries, Angela Merkel from Germany, the prime minister of Great Britain David Cameron, have all said publicly they will be attending. France's president will be attending as well.

Likely tens of thousands if not more, hundreds of thousands of French citizens as well, gathering together. Even at this time that there is this massive manhunt, there is the concern about the possibility of other attacks, whether from people linked to this cell, whether it's from this fourth female suspect, or others who out there who may want to be -- turning to grab the headlines, to grab the attention and grab the attention of the jihadist world.

This rally plans to go forward. And it -- more than likely it's going to be just a -- yet another remarkable display of courage in the face of terror.

LEMON: All right, Anderson. Thank you very much.

I want to bring in now our security experts. Paul Mudd, CNN counterterrorism analyst and former CIA official, Barak Barfi s a research fellow at the New America Foundation, also Paul Cruickshank, CNN terrorism analyst, Mia Bloom, professor of Security Studies at the University of Massachusetts Lowell, and is also the author of "Bombshell."

Welcome, everyone. Thank you for joining us on a Friday evening.

Paul, to you first. There are reports that AQAP is claiming responsibility for the "Charlie Hebdo" attack. What do you think of it?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, Don, I think it's certainly a plausible claim, though it has not yet been authenticated by U.S. intelligence agencies. But those same U.S. intelligence agencies say that at least one of the brothers trained with AQAP in Yemen in 2011. The French is suggesting the other brother also went there in 2011.

So it's quite possible that they were recruited by al Qaeda in Yemen for an attack in France. Quite possible that they were recruited by Anwar al-Awlaki, who back in 2011 was trying to recruit Europeans for attacks back in Europe -- Don.

LEMON: They had a huge stockpile, Paul, of weapons. How much does it cost? And where could they have gotten those weapons?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, that's a very big puzzle. They did have those stockpile of heavy weapons, powerful weapons, Kalashnikovs, rocket launchers, things like that, which are really unprecedented for a terrorist plot in the West. The investigators are going to be looking very carefully where they got these from. Perhaps they got them from the black market, from the criminal underworld. But they would have to have significant finances and contacts to get these weapons. It's a very, very disturbing detail here -- Don.

LEMON: And, Mia, I want to ask you about Hayat Boumediene. She's on the run tonight, believed to be on the run. Are you surprised that a woman was involved in this?

MIA BLOOM, PROFESSOR OF SECURITY STUDIES, UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL: No, I'm not surprised that a woman was involved because women have been involved in terrorism since 1968. But if you even go back -- you can go back to the 19th century, to 1882. So the fact is that a woman is involved is not surprising. That people are surprised that a woman was involved is what I still don't understand because we've seen women in so many different terrorist groups as suicide bombers, as sharp shooters, as recruiters. They do all these different kinds of jobs in terrorist movements.

LEMON: And is it -- is it -- the fact that she is a woman that may have helped her get away because people weren't suspecting her?

BLOOM: Absolutely. I think it's precisely because she was able to blend in with the civilian population. That is precisely why terrorist groups use women. And they use women at times when either they are trying to target civilians because the women blend in with the civilians or when they are trying to change the nature of the profile. If you're looking for a man, a Muslim man of a certain age, using a woman is a perfect way to fall under the radar screen.

And it's one of the reasons why Awlaki was very actively recruiting women, Western women or Western convert women.

LEMON: Yes. Who was trying to get in? Was that Phil?

BLOOM: I'm sorry?

LEMON: Yes. I thought someone was trying to get in. Wanted to comment on what you said. But, Phil, I want to ask you. According to the Paris prosecutor's

office, the wife of Cherif Kouachi and the girlfriend Amedy Coulibaly, Hayat Boumeddiene, exchanged 500 phone calls in 2014. What does this tell you?

PHILIP MUDD, FORMER CIA COUNTERTERRORISM OFFICIAL: Look, there is a simple answer, Don, that I think is too simple. That is, clearly there is a close relationship. That is not the conclusion I draw from this. Let me go back to something that Paul Cruickshank said a few minutes ago.

Over time these people acquired a tremendous stockpile of weapons. Over time they've been radicalized. There's reports that one of them was in Syria and Iraq. There's reports obviously that one of them was in Yemen. Over this course of time, over the development of this close relationship, what were they thinking of doing? Who did they talk to? Most of these plots developed fairly quickly.

This one clearly percolated for a long period of time. I want to know how did it percolate and what were they thinking of when they spent all this time developing the plot, talking to each other with all these messages and phone calls, and acquiring all these weapons. There is a huge missed story here and that is what was going on over that time?

LEMON: Barak Barfi, do you agree with that?

BARAK BARFI, RESEARCH FELLOW, THE NEW AMERICA FOUNDATION: Well, yes, I definitely do. The problem here is that these people were on the radar. Cherif, especially, the older one, was on the radar of both American intelligence, Yemeni intelligence, and French intelligence. We know that Cherif met with Jamal Barar (ph), who is a big leader of the Takfir Movement, the most radical Muslim jihadist groups. They should have flashed red lights in France.

We believe he was on the no-fly list. We believe that the Yemeni government passed on the information about his activities. So we had a lot of red lights that should have alerted the French authorities to the possible attacks that these people could carry out.

LEMON: All right, everybody. Stay right there. We have lots more to talk about. When we come back, we're going to go to Paris for more on our breaking news. The search for the suspected female terrorist and the State Department issues a worldwide warning to Americans.

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Our breaking news tonight. A nationwide search under way in France to track down a female terror suspect.

Want to get back now to Paris, to CNN's Jim Sciutto.

Jim, what is the latest on the investigation of Hayat Boumeddiene tonight? SCIUTTO: Well, it's the believe of the police union that Hayat

Boumeddiene was in that kosher supermarket tonight and may have escaped when the other hostages escaped. There are other agencies here including the Interior Ministry who have not confirmed that. And watching that video, we've talked about this earlier in the hour, Don, it's difficult to imagine how she would have escaped with all that police presence around there but that is what the police union is saying.

They're looking for her. They believe she is involved. They're not sure she was -- operationally involved but they believes she was at least present at yesterday's shooting as well when a female police officer was shot. And they also say that she was not a peripheral figure. She was communicating with the wife of the Kouachi brother who carried out the attack on Paris Hebdo, communicating frequently hundreds of times last year.

So this was not a peripheral figure. They are treating her as dangerous. They believe she may be armed. A real priority for the French security services tonight.

LEMON: Jim, I want to talk to you about the State Department issuing this worldwide caution. What did it say?

SCIUTTO: Well, I'll tell you, Don, you read this caution and I frankly am not sure of what is intended to accomplish. It's warning Americans about activities, quote-unquote, "throughout the world." It lists, Europe, North Africa, Asia, and it says that -- and then it goes on to list virtually every public place you can imagine, business areas, residential areas, schools, churches, mosques, stores, you name it, basically, warning Americans, virtually anywhere in public in the world to be vigilant for these kinds of attacks.

Now, the sad fact is it is possible that terrorist people either inspired on their own or operationally tied as it believed these terrorists were -- the terrorist groups in Yemen, in the Middle East could carry out attacks anywhere, but you have this warning.

And listen, as an American myself who travels frequently overseas, you just wonder what you do with it because, you know, reading that warning standing on street corner tonight is a possible risk as well. It's just so broad you have to wonder what the practical function of a warning like that is.

LEMON: Jim Sciutto in Paris. Jim, thank you very much. We want to bring Phil Budd, Barak Barfi, Paul Cruickshank and also Mia Bloom. Hey, Phil, I want to ask you about this. Tonight, U.S. official is telling CNN that -- and this is a quote -- "We've expected this and they liken the terror threat to the war on drugs, a fight in perpetuity."

MUDD: Look this is -- we are trying to characterize this as an isolated incident in Paris. We're trying to characterize some of the home grown stuff we saw in North America. Remember the attack on the parliament in Ottawa, that hatchet attack in New York, is some sort of vague episodic experience that we have with terror. We have to begin to understand that this is not a war with an end. This is a cancer and a sliver of Islam that will be affecting us for decades. One of the problems we have and I have heard this is extremely frustrating as a former practitioner is people talking abut out this as a failure. Let me tell you something. When you are 15 years into a campaign and you're dealing with tens of thousands of cases across North America and Europe and the standard for success is not one of them goes south. That is a misunderstanding of what is going on, Don. What's going on is we are no longer in a war on terror. We are dealing with a cancer within society that will take decades to resolve.

LEMON: Barak Barfi, it has been said this attack was different than attacks that we have seen. Do you agree with that?

BARAK BARFI, RESEARCH FELLOW NEW AMERICA FOUNDATION: I agree completely. What we saw in Ottawa, what we've seen other places, we see lone wolves, possibly deranged people. The Kouachi brothers were calculated. They were cold. They knew what they were doing. They had professional training. And they had links to AQAP, Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. Cherif Kouachi told BFM today that Anwar Al Awlaki financed him. So he had contacts with the most radical of the radicals. This attack should scare us. Each attack should scare America. Each attack should scare Europe. And we will likely see more blowback from ISIS in the coming future.

LEMON: Mia, he mentioned Kouachi and said brothers. You're not surprised that they are brothers, are you?

MIA BLOOM, AUTHOR OF "DYING TO KILL - THE ALLURE OF SUICIDE TERROR": No. Not at all. In fact, Dr. Jon Horgan and I wrote an article -- a very small article after the Tsarnaev attack in Boston where we showed that siblings very often cooperate and work together in terrorist movements, sometimes at the same operations, sometimes tag teaming it as far back as, you know, we've got in Chechnya, in Northern Ireland, Tsarnaev, and now, we have the Kouachi brothers.

And it's one of the ways in which a terrorist group is able to ensure that the operatives are not going to change their mind at the last minute. They're not going to, you know, decide, "I really don't want to do it," because it is one thing to let the terrorist group down. It is a whole other issue to let a family member down. It's a way of keeping operational secrecy and it's a way of ensuring that the attack will be carried out successfully because you know you can trust your family.

LEMON: Paul, the idea that the brothers could be part of a larger sleeper cell to -- just waiting to be called into action.

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, it's an interesting question but there's...

BLOOM: Perhaps.

CRUICKSHANK: ... sorry -- that these brothers were in 2011 in Yemen, perhaps recruited into a plot by Al Awlaki then. Well, more than three years have passed since then. So the question is, did they put the plot on ice and reactivate it for some reason or was this more from their own steam, their own volition that they decided to do this themselves without -- only a little encouragement from Al-Qaeda and Yemen. Not absolutely clear at this point, Don.

LEMON: Barak, what should we read into the fact that this was a kosher grocery store targeted today?

BARFI: Well, we know that radical jihadists have always talked about targeting Jews. We know that Arabs and Muslims are indoctrinated from the young age that the Jews and the Israelis are the enemy. They can look back into historical Islam that Muhammad in Medina fought three Jewish tribes and then bring it to the present with the attacks against Palestinians by Israelis. So we have a long string of anti- Semitism against -- from the Muslim and Arab world.

LEMON: Mia, what's going on in Europe and maybe in France specifically? You know, he mentioned that this was, you know, an incident in a Jewish or kosher store. Muslims there don't feel that they can fit in. What is happening here?

BLOOM: You know, I think there is a combination. One of the things that Reza Aslan said on your show last night is that we have a whole segment of disaffected society and a segment of the society and I think it is important just to point out because I'm going to gently disagree with Mr. Barfi that I don't think it is all Muslims in France and I think that there were a lot of Muslims in France that are very well assimilated. They are -- they participate as French citizens. And one of the things you mentioned earlier the program is that the Kouachi brothers objected to the fact that the imam was encouraging his congregation to participate in the French elections. So I think we want to distinguish the fact that there is a small segment within French society that is a very vocal and a dangerous segment, but we are seeing people who are treated in many ways, you know, as you said yesterday, it's their Ferguson that these are people who are disproportionately in jail, incarcerated, poor. They don't have the same opportunities and they definitely don't feel that they are part of the society and they are on the outs. And so, these kinds of extremist attitudes feed upon that. But I also did want to emphasize that I don't think it is all Muslims in France.

LEMON: Yes. Do you want to respond to that, Barak?

BARFI: Well, I didn't say all Muslims in France. It's a small population of the Muslims in France. Look, Don. I have lived in France. I have lived in southern France the most populous areas for Arabs. I have spent days in the cafes with these people hearing their grievances. They sit there and they smoke hashish joints for hours on then and they complained they can't get jobs.

That France -- the French don't like them. I heard one Arab from Algeria told me once he tried to get a hotel in Northern France and when he gave the hotel manager his name over the phone he said the hotel is booked because he had an Arab name. There is a lot of discrimination against these people. Some people sit in cafes and are frustrated. Some people become like Sarkozy's former justice minister who was Arab. They moved him to the top. But most of the guys sit at the bottom of society and they just have grievances and some -- a small minority, radicalized and become jihadists like the Kouachi brothers.

LEMON: We're out of time. That's going to have to be the last word. Thank you everyone. Appreciate you coming in on Friday evening. Tension is at a boiling point Muslims and non-Muslims across Europe. Is America next? I'm going to ask the experts when we come right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The terror attack on Charlie Hebdo, the hostage crisis in the kosher market in Paris, is all of this the tip of the iceberg? Can we stop terror from spreading across Europe and the world? CNN's Martin Savidge has more now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: March 2004, bombs strike commuter trains in Madrid killing 191 people. Spanish authorities blame an Al- Qaeda-inspired terrorist cell. May 2013, a British soldier is hacked to death on a busy London street in broad day light. His two attackers, Muslim converts claiming an eye for an eye.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible)

(GUNFIRE)

SAVIDGE: And Paris 2015. Just three examples of three different European countries seeing the same sort of terror, the question is why.

REZA ASLAN, AUTHOR OF ZEALOT: There have been these seismic changes on the continent culturally, racially, religiously, politically.

SAVIDGE: Author and religious scholar, Reza Aslan, says Europe has seen a huge influx of immigrants, many poor minority and Muslims, causing a growing number of Europeans to feel culturally threatened.

CROWD: (Inaudible)

SAVIDGE: And this is one reaction, an ugly rise of anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim sentiment. Last month in Germany, thousand marched in the anti-Muslim protest in Dresden. And in Germany, France, and the U.K., anti-immigration political parties are gaining popularity. Tensions among the Muslim and non-Muslim populations of Europe have reached a boiling point. While the vast majority of Muslims want nothing to do with the fundamentalists, Aslan told CNN Tonight the current climate is a perfect recipe for terror recruits.

ASLAN: The Muslim population in Europe, for the most part, tends to be lower middle-class. They are economically, socially, politically marginalized. They feel dispossessed. They themselves have an identity crisis. They don't feel French. They don't feel Algerian. They don't feel British. They don't feel Pakistani. And so that's why they become such easy bait for organizations like ISIS or Al-Qaeda.

SAVIDGE: But if you think the danger is limited to Europe, experts say, think again. Two years ago, I reported on the growing recruitment of young Americans, Somalis in Minneapolis by the terror group Al- Shabab. Here is part of that report.

How many young people have been taken from the community for recruiting?

OMAR JAMAL, SOMALI COMMUNITY ACTIVIST: Approximately 30-40 and that has been the most-often asked question and I think nobody can nail down the exact figure.

SAVIDGE: Like Europe but not on the same scale. America has a population of poor, disenfranchised Muslim youth who expert fear could be persuaded to fight Americans, not overseas but in the local mall.

JAMES COMEY, DIRECTOR OF FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: With the way the Internet changed all of our lives, it is not e no longer necessary to meet some body in Al-Qaeda to get training and inspiration to conduct a terrorist attack here in the United States. Someone can do it in their pajamas in their basement.

SAVIDGE: As authorities in Paris pick up the pieces across Europe and beyond, many fear the ongoing cultural clash will soon fuel more violence. The only question is where. Martin Savidge, CNN.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I want to bring in now Roger Cohen. He is The New York Times op-ed columnist and the author of The Girl from Human Street - A Memoir about Jewish Identity, and Steven Fish is professor of political science at Berkeley. Good evening, gentlemen. Roger, I spoke with Reza Aslan. You saw part of it in Martin's story there. Last night I spoke to him. And he told me that Europe is facing an identity crisis. There is anti-Muslim backlash, and this tension is in part leading to these acts of violence, violence against Muslims and Muslims against Europeans, what is the assessment of the situation?

ROGER COHEN, OP-ED COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": I think there's a very combustible, very explosive situation in Europe right now, Don. And the recent attacks in France, have just redoubled that to an enormous degree. You have Jewish communities feeling under threat, attacked, during the Gaza war in the summer; now, this attack in the kosher supermarket. You have Muslim communities feeling marginalized, alienated as has been described. You have right-wing political movements, anti-immigration movements rising. And I think we're seeing the beginning of this. We're on the brink of a very dangerous period in Europe.

LEMON: Steve, you -- from the (inaudible), you said Europe has had a hard time integrating our faiths. Europe was, was, pretty Christian with a small Jewish minority. Only in recent decade has it become more Muslim. But Americans are used to more multiculturalism, multi- religious -- is a multicultural and multi-religious society.

STEVEN FISH, PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE BERKELEY: That's right, Don. The United States is regarded by many Muslims around the world as a more hospitable place to live than Europe. One of the reasons is that the United States, of course, is a nation of immigrants. We embrace the kind of multiculturalism where people can come here with whatever tongues they speak, whatever faith they practice and be comfortable and feel like they can be Americans. We have to remember that is a long part of our history. It's been a part of our history for a long time. In Europe though, it's been in recent decades that there has been a great deal of immigration of people who are not predominantly -- who are not Christian or Jewish. And so it is just -- it's just been a few decade that Europeans have been dealing with this.

LEMON: OK. I want to read this to you then. It brings it perfectly to you. This is a tweet that's from Rupert Murdoch, OK? He put this out earlier tonight. He writes, "Maybe most Muslims peaceful, but until they recognize and destroy their growing jihadist cancer, they must be held responsible." What do you think of that, Steve?

FISH: Well, I think it is kind of odd actually to hold all Muslims responsible for acts that most Muslims despise. It would be like saying, take the Christian terrorist organization in Uganda. Joseph Kony's Lord's Resistance Army. It's a bunch of crazy fanatics who call themselves Christian fundamentalists and to look at their acts of terrorism. They've killed tens of thousand of people." And to tweet that all Christians will be held responsible for their acts of terrorism. It really doesn't make much sense to me.

LEMON: Roger?

COHEN: I do hold Muslims responsible to this degree. I don't think that we can solve this problem, Don, until moderate Muslims really speak out, really say, "This is not our religion. This is not something we can accept. This is absolutely barbaric. This is the murder of innocents. This is an attack on Western democracies and the freedoms we all stand for. And we are now part of these societies. We are living in them." Until they speak out in that way, I don't think we're going to see much progress.

And I think that is a responsibility they have. You asked a pretty direct question last night to a Muslim human rights lawyer, Mr. Iftikhar. You asked him if he was a supporter of ISIS. And he gave a very vague, wishy-washy answer. Why can't a moderate Muslim like that just come out and say, "These guys are slitting the throats of Western journalists. They're raping and slaughtering in Iraq and Syria and I personally abhor this and do not support them." No, we got a very vague answer. And as long as moderate Muslims are giving vague answers to what we're seeing going on in Paris and elsewhere I think the situation will only get worse.

LEMON: I'm glad you picked up on that because, you know, context is everything. There was a reason for that question because there was a nebulous answer before that. So -- but moderate Muslims will tell you and they have told me. And if you are on social media, Roger, I am sure if you go on now, they will -- you're going to get this. We speak out all the time. No one is listening. No one is paying attention to us.

COHEN: Well, some speak out in Tunisia and elsewhere and they get killed for speaking out. And clearly, it can be dangerous to speak out when you have radicals -- murderous radicals of this kind. It may well be true that moderate Muslims speak out more than is recognized by people like me. I'm perfectly ready to concede that. And certainly, we've seen the leader of the Muslim community in France speaking out very loud and clear against what's been happening.

But I don't get the feeling that there is anybody -- certainly there is no one person in the Muslim world who has come to incarnate a stand against this kind of ferocity and savagery. Look, Mahatma Gandhi was killed by a Hindu -- he was killed by a Hindu because he stood up and told Hindus that the kind of violence they were perpetrating against Muslims had to stop.

LEMON: I have got to -- I've got to run, Roger. But thank you, Roger and Steven. Will you come back, please?

COHEN: Sure.

LEMON: Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it. Coming up, the siege of the kosher grocery store In Paris. Clues in the midst of the carnage. A former Delta Force commander breaks it all down for us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPOKEN IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That was a very violent end of the siege of the kosher grocery store in Paris that resulted in the death of one Paris suspect in a hail of bullets. A female suspect on the run tonight. But what can we learn from that video? Let's talk about it now with Lieutenant Colonel James Reese, CNN's military analyst and retired Delta Force commander. Good evening, Colonel, how you doing?

JAMES REESE, RETIRED DELTA FORCE COMMANDER AND TIGERSWAN CEO: Don, good to see you.

LEMON: That video remarkable. Good to see you as well. 26-year-old woman is the only survivor of the two raids. She remains at large. French authorities are conducting a massive manhunt to find her. What can you tell us about the woman they search for?

REESE: Well, Don, before I say that, let me tell everyone out there to understand a hostage rescue is the most difficult operation law enforcement or military can execute. So the woman, I believe, when you saw the man -- the terrorist rush out with his arms up and he was shot by the police who were in the breach sight there and he gets hit, he spins around. You could see the AK-47 that was on a sling around him fling up in the air. Just as that happened, you see all the hostages rush out. What that shows me is the hostages knew at that point that was the only threat left in the room. So my assumption is that woman was not in there anymore. She did not go out with the hostages. She probably slipped out prior to the isolation force getting into position.

LEMON: All right. So you don't think she was -- OK. Great. So let's talk about -- I want to play the video as everyone says it's remarkable. It's really powerful video, police ending the hostage siege at the kosher grocery store. So let's walk through it. Let's go through it here you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: You can see the actual terrorist himself running into the barrage. You're going to see that in seconds and then he is killed. There it is right there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPOKEN IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

LEMON: And then the SWAT team swarms into this grocery store and you can see them obviously rushing in. There. And then in the left of your screen now, what you are seeing, you can see the hostages running out as quickly as they can. And then the last thing to point out is that there is an injured policeman as the SWAT team carries him out of the grocery store once they go in. What do we believe happened to this officer, Jim?

REESE: Well, Don, one of my concerns is in France they have an organization called the GIGN, which is the Delta Force SEAL Team 6 equivalent here in the United States. They initially were sent up north when the first -- when the first hostage situation we thought when the two brothers barricaded themselves in the warehouse. They got committed. Then when you had the second hostage issue down south at the grocery store, now, you had to bring in your next tier of forces to come in. And one of my concerns is when you saw this massive police entrance at the bridge point no one ever entered the breach. They froze in the breach. And you can see the officers crisscrossing each other while they're shooting. I will -- I'm going to go out on a limb and say those police officers -- one of them was probably shot by their own man because they did not follow their fields of fire and I counted up to 71 shots fired into that store with not very well aimed shots. So that's concerning for me.

LEMON: You said it's very difficult to carry out. Lieutenant Colonel James Reese, thank you.

REESE: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)