Return to Transcripts main page

NEW DAY

"Charlie Hebdo" Will Put Out Issue Wednesday; At Least Seven People Detained; Manhunt Continues; How Some Muslims View Satire About Muhammad

Aired January 8, 2015 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: We're outside the offices of "Charlie Hebdo," the French satirical magazine that suffered this horrible massacre yesterday at the hands of terrorists. Here are some updates for you.

First of all, next Wednesday "Charlie Hebdo" will put out its next issue. Members of the magazine saying we cannot let them win. That had been in doubt. It is in doubt no more. "Charlie Hebdo" will be out.

At least seven people have been detained, if not arrested, in connection with the look for these two alleged terrorists who created this tragedy here. Right now there's been a sighting of the two men at a gas station north of Paris. Supposedly they are on the run. We are told that the French authorities have thrown everything at this situation, military, intelligence, police. This is the main goal right now to catch these two men. We know that they had been known by authorities. One of them had been arrested before, so that's that.

A third man turned himself in, 18 years old, says he had nothing to do with it. U.S. authorities are using full intelligence capabilities to help try and continue to develop a nexus around these men and who may have supported them, if it's a terrorist infrastructure or a local cell. That's happening. Ten Downing Street, the intelligence for the U.K., they are on high alert just in case the men are considering fleeing here to go there. So that's all the latest on what's going on here.

There was also an earlier shooting this morning in south Paris. It had a similar M.O., a modus operandi, to what happened here. Military dress, maybe a bulletproof vest, two police officers were shot at a traffic checkpoint, one of them a female officer, died. That suspect still also on the loose. A man in his 50s had been detained. He has been released.

So, Mickey, that's the latest from here right now. The bad news is that the bad guys are still on the run. The good news is that "Charlie Hebdo" is going to publish their magazine and that the people very united in saying that the cause of freedom is one that must prevail.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: And that is a powerful statement, Chris, thanks so much.

All right, let's look at the five things you need to know for your new day.

At number one, as you've learned, and we've been telling you, a massive manhunt still unfolding in France for those two brothers suspected in Wednesday's terror attack of the "Charlie Hebdo" magazine office in Paris. The magazine will be published, as we just heard, as scheduled Wednesday.

Much of the U.S. bundling up today. Almost 90 percent of the nation dealing with below freezing temperatures. Public schools in major cities, like Boston, Milwaukee and Cleveland all will be closed today.

Crews are scrambling to remove the tail section of AirAsia Flight 8501 now. Divers attempted to raise the tail -- ready the tail, rather, for raising today. Bad weather, however, forced them once again out of the water.

Bill Cosby back on stage. Shouters - protesters, rather, shouting "shame on you" at ticketholders who attended last night's show in Ontario, Canada. Three new accusers have come forward now with sexual assault allegations against the comedian.

President Obama will travel to Phoenix today as part of his three-day tour, touting his 2015 economic agenda addressing housing and in a new initiative on lowering mortgage rates for first-time owners.

We do update the five things to know, so be sure to check out newdaycnn.com for the latest.

Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, Michaela.

Of course we're following all of the breaking news out of Paris. Police are still searching. They are searching a gas station right now in northern France that may have been robbed by the terror suspects. So we will go back to Paris with Chris and Anderson Cooper when we come right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: All right, we're live here in Paris, outside the offices of the French satirical magazine "Charlie Hebdo." And Chris Cuomo, Anderson Cooper, we came in here last night. You picked up the coverage right away, fresh off the plane. And in just these 12 hours, we've seen such a dramatic shift here in terms of how the French people went from the fear of the unknown, this heinous attack, to this resolve and this sense of unity.

ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, CNN'S "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Yes. Absolutely.

CUOMO: What did you see?

COOPER: Yes, I mean, I think there was such shock and I think there's still shock. And you see it here. I mean we're just a few blocks from the office. There's a makeshift memorial that sprung up that you've been showing. And there's a real silence here. And people are just coming. They kind of want to be part of it. They're laying flowers. They're laying pictures. They -- even if they're not bringing something, they just kind of want to bear witness to the horror of what happened here.

But I think we saw this last night, this extraordinary outpouring of people -- look, there's two suspects, as you've been reporting, still on the loose and yet you had, you know, thousands, more than 10,000 people in Paris here in a show of solidarity, a show of support, signs saying we - you know, we are not afraid. We saw that in Berlin and we saw that in Amsterdam, in London, all throughout Europe, all throughout -- even places in the United States, in New York. So I do think there's this real resilience and this real determination not to allow this publication to be silenced, not to allow freedom of expression to be silenced. And as you reported next Wednesday this magazine, this newspaper is going to print an edition. A million copies are going to be printed. And no doubt it's going to sell out because everybody is going to want to get it to show their support for the larger issue of freedom of expression.

CUOMO: Now, this brand of satire that "Charlie Hebdo" does was controversial.

COOPER: Right.

CUOMO: Forget about the extremist elements, but just in mainstream that -

COOPER: Well, look, I mean they're an equal -- this has been going -- they've been around since the 1970s.

CUOMO: Yes.

COOPER: And it's - you know, they stopped publication for a time because they didn't have money. Their actual subscription base is pretty small but it's the kind of thing - I come to Paris with some frequency -- you would see it in the subway stations, in magazine kiosks, people kind of look at the cover and move on. But the -- they're an equal opportunity offender. I mean they are -- they offend everybody, every religion -

CUOMO: Every faith, every political system, sure.

COOPER: Right. Anybody in the public sphere, they mock. And so it's not as if they are - have only been mocking the Prophet Muhammad. They have mocked everybody.

CUOMO: That's -- for granted they're not selective. However, it had been a legit issue to say whether or not -- certainly the right to publish, but whether it is right for them to publish it. I wonder if this event has pushed the needle the other way? That now it's seen as even more acceptable, even more of a necessary exercise of freedom.

COOPER: I think it is. I think if the objective - and I was talking to a number of French journalists last night about this, and particularly one who shot the video that we've been showing of the attack, who said, you know, look, if the objective was to silence this magazine, to silence satire, to silence free expression, it's had the reverse effect. I mean this magazine now is more well-known. These comics have been seen more widely than they ever would have before and you're going to see more and more like them.

CUOMO: Now, the question that they also have to deal with here is the nature of the evolving threat. You've witnessed all over the world this beginning part of the straight suicide bomber.

COOPER: Right.

CUOMO: You know just the pawn.

COOPER: Right.

CUOMO: And now we're seeing the lone wolf, the displaced, the mentally ill -

COOPER: Right.

CUOMO: Who romanticizes jihad. Now we're seeing what is really the new and maybe the highest form of threat, which is somewhat trained people -

COOPER: Right.

CUOMO: Maybe from abroad, maybe (INAUDIBLE) to do and can kill (INAUDIBLE).

COOPER: Right, small groups, two or three people. And you can see the kind of damage, you know, it takes a lot of coordination, a lot of planning for a group like al Qaeda to do a large scale 9/11 style attack. But to have two or three guys who maybe even not directly affiliated but are ideologically motivated with a limited amount of training. I mean I think we don't want to overstate. These guys are not highly trained commandos. They made some classic mistakes in their tactics yesterday, but they also, you know, they know how to fire a gun, fire a rifle.

But we see the horrible effectiveness of an attack like this. It's closer, I think, to the Mumbai attacks that we saw several years ago in India. Though that was definitely centrally controlled, there was a central controller talking to the attackers. But the idea that a handful of attackers - and, look, intelligence officials and former intelligence officials I talked to in the United States, this is what concerns the most about the United States. I talked to Philip Mudd last night, formerly with the CIA and FBI, who said, he's surprised this has not happened yet.

CUOMO: Right.

COOPER: And a lot of intelligence people (INAUDIBLE) in the United States.

CUOMO: (INAUDIBLE) luck where you find it. I mean it sizes up a little bit or in feel to Boston. You know, marginally sophisticated, motivated people - COOPER: Right.

CUOMO: Who find the wherewithal, whether externally and or internally, to find a way to create havoc. There they were using a bomb.

COOPER: Right.

CUOMO: Here, they were using weapons. And yet still, mistakes. Here I would call these bone-headed, dropping the shoe, dropping the I.D., accosting, you know, at the gas station, that's not sophisticated, but it does show it doesn't take much to do so much damage.

COOPER: Right. Absolutely. I mean I think - I think the picking up of the shoe was a sign of sort of the control that they had in the moment. But clearly leaving the identity card, that was a major mistake, and that clearly seems to have helped law enforcement zero in on them. And the manhunt still very much - very much underway. It seems to be closing in but, you know, we'll be watching it closely.

CUOMO: And that's going to be huge because one of the most effective ways for the state to frustrate further efforts is to show, you do get caught.

COOPER: Right.

CUOMO: You get caught, you get punished and you get forgotten. And the question is, how long will it take?

COOPER: Yes. And as you said, I mean there was another police officer killed in a separate incident. It seems completely unrelated, although obviously that's something that law enforcement's going to be looking into. That suspect also still at large.

CUOMO: Still at large, so they have a lot on their plate. They're getting the help from the U.S.. We heard that Ten Downing Street, the U.K. intelligence obviously concerned about whether or not there's any attempted movement from France there. So there are going to be a lot of issues to be picked up on.

Anderson Cooper will pick up the coverage. We're going to have one more block here on NEW DAY, but then we will hand it off. CNN will do continuing coverage throughout the day of what happened here in Paris. That's for sure. Stay with us after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Good to have you back with us here on NEW DAY. Perhaps at the center of the assault on journalists of "Charlie Hebdo" are cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad. Why are images of Muhammad considered so offensive? Why do some Muslims not take humor in satire about their religion? I want to get some perspective from two very special guests. We have Azhar Usman, he's an American Muslim standup comedian, joins us from chilly Chicago this morning. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is the chairman of the Cordoba Initiative, an independent, multi-national project that works to reconnect the Muslim world and the West, something we so desperately need. Gentlemen, first of all, thank you so much for joining us. Very

difficult, very trying time for our world, for our nation and for people of faith. I think, Imam, why don't I start with you, because I think so many people are struggling to understand. There's not a great deal of understanding perhaps here in the West about Islam. Maybe you can help us understand why it is prohibited to depict the prophet Muhammad.

IMAM FEISAL ABDUL RAUF, CHAIRMAN, CORDOBA INITIATIVE: Indeed, but first allow me to just express my condolences- -

PEREIRA: Please.

RAUF: - - to the families of those who have been killed and to mourn the loss of these innocent lives, something which we all as righteous people, Muslims and non Muslims, absolutely and unequivocally condemn. Like all prophets, we respect our prophets, Muhammad, we respect all the prophets, we respect Jesus Christ, Moses, and all of the prophets. And we actually are taught to love them more than we love our own parents. And therefore, in our culture, in Western culture, one of the deepest insults is to insult somebody's parents. But the prophet himself said cursed be the person, the man, who curses his own parents. And he says who of us does that, messenger of God? And he said, when you curse somebody else's parents and they curse your parents in retaliation, you have been responsible for your parents being cursed.

And this is the crime that these people have committed by attacking the values of French values and the Koran specifically prohibits us from cursing, or insulting, or abusing the values of the gods of other people, least they abuse our own values and our god, and this is the crime that these people have committed. But even under Islamic principle of justice and law, libel, even if this is proven to be libel, it's not a capital crime.

PEREIRA: Right.

RAUF: So on every single count, from justice, from law to ethics, these terrorists have acted outside the aegis of Islam. What they're doing is categorically un-Islamic. They are jihadists, and as experts have told us, all acts of terrorism are politically motivated. This is about advancing their political agenda.

PEREIRA: Right.

RAUF: They want to advance the attack by the French government and French people against French Muslims because this helps them in their narrative, helps their recruitment and helps their narrative that there is a clash in Western-Islamic values, which is a myth which we all have to bust.

PEREIRA: I want to turn to you, Azhar, pardon me, because I know that you are a working comedian. You use satire and comedy as your work. I'm curious, as a Muslim-American, how do you find the balance of what you think is appropriate and what doesn't offend your own sensibilities or those of your family or your community? AZHAR USMAN, AMERICAN-MUSLIM COMEDIAN: Yes, it's a good question. You

know, to be perfectly honest with you, Michaela, when a situation like this erupts, and unfortunately as we all know this is becoming a more common problem, I think it's almost disingenuous to say that these guys are upset about some cartoons. It's also disingenuous to pretend as though we can have a conversation about these horrible killings decontextualized from the larger reality in which they're taking place.

I think Imam Feisal hit the nail on the head when he says these guys are jihadists, they're motivated by political realities, they have political gripes, and the reason why it becomes really problematic and there's a lot of tension there is because the gripes that Muslim terrorists complain about often are actually valid and legitimate gripes that have to do with American foreign policy, that have to do with Israel and Palestine, and Muslims by and large have a tremendous amount of let's say sympathy for a lot of those sentiments.

Where it becomes problematic is where these terrorists use violence to express their frustration and take their anger out on cartoonists. I don't think that anybody in their right mind on the planet is interested in justifying killing cartoonists for their political cartoons. At the same time, if we want to understand what's really going on, we can't pretend as though the magazine was not totally racist, and xenophobic, and offensive on a lot of different levels. It wasn't just a matter of oh, we drew the prophet Muhammad in a cartoon and Muslims can't take it because they don't have room for free speech or freedom of expression. There's something a little more sinister going on and I think any honest conversation has to take that into account.

PEREIRA: Imam, do you take the cartoons of "Charlie Hebdo" and some of those other political satires, do you take them to be offensive?

RAUF: Well, they certainly are offensive, but, you know, the prophet himself was lampooned and mocked, but his response was to pray for their guidance. And even one of his greatest successors, Caliph Omar (ph), wanted to actually kill the prophet. So the instructive behavior which is our standard of behavior, the prophet's behavior, was to pray for those hostile to us. The Koran explicitly states respond to a hurt by a good act, which transforms the person who is hostile to you to being a passionate friend. So - -

PEREIRA: I'm curious, and I'll ask both of you quickly, we only have about a minute left. Azhar, do you feel that it is okay though to express, because this is freedom of expression as the larger context we're having this conversation under. I hear that you feel that these cartoons are offensive, but are you okay with the freedom to express this in the cartoons?

USMAN: I don't think there's any question, there's no question about that. I mean, every civilized person on earth understands there has to be room for freedom of expression, freedom of speech. As a proponent of free speech and as somebody who believes in free speech I make my livelihood as a comedian.

PEREIRA: Right, right.

USMAN: And speaking my mind. I think that we also have to understand that all civilized society also understands there are limits on free speech, even in the United States of America. Yelling "fire" in a crowded theater is illegal, fighting words are illegal, incitement to a riot is illegal, libel is illegal. So we understand as a civilized people that there has to be limits - -

PEREIRA: Right.

USMAN: - - placed on freedom of expression or freedom of speech so as to not create a chaotic and a lawless society. Well, in this case, we simple have - -

PEREIRA: Azhar Usman, I want to - - I'm sorry, we have to end it there. What I hope is we can have this conversation and continue it from here. Azhar Usman- -

USMAN: I hope so, I hope so.

PEREIRA: Imam Feisal. We really do, we really hope we can. Really a pleasure to have you both here with us today.

RAUF: Thank you, Michaela.

PEREIRA: Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: All right, Michaela. We're following all of the breaking developments out of France and the manhunt for the terror suspects. We'll go back to Chris live in Paris, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: And welcome back. I'm here with Chris Cuomo. It is extraordinary to be here on this site, on this day and as you talked about earlier, there is sort of this change in attitude among the French. There was a lot of fear yesterday, I think certainly a lot of shock. I think the shock is still there and present, but there is this resolve.

CUOMO: I think you're right. Watching your coverage last night it seemed that this society was caught unaware of this. We all know about terrorism, but to see this type of killing, done this way, by so few people, I think they were shaken. And yet so quickly they rallied around something that is fundamental, no matter you're in France, or whether you're in the United States, or anywhere in western Europe, that either you want to be free, or you want to be controlled. And the French people with their signs, I am not afraid, we are not afraid, je suis charlie they say they want to be free, that they're not afraid, and that oppression will not win. And I think that's a very powerful medicine in the fight against terrorism.

COOPER: And particularly for terrorists who wanted to silence, not only this magazine, but silence that expression, that thing which makes France and the Western world so unique in the world. They failed to do that. In fact, if anything they have given a voice, given a platform and amplified the voice

CUOMO: They're going to gather around in the cause of having the type of expression, whether it's satire or otherwise. The magazine's coming out next week, right? They're going to put out you said 1 million copies of it. I mean, that's clear, and that's one component, the citizenry wanting to own who they are and what they're about. The other part is what the state does in terms of discouraging these kinds of acts and how it better detects them in advance, and in this case right now finds the bad guys responsible because they're still at large.

COOPER: Yes. Chris Cuomo, appreciate all of your coverage. We're going to be continuing to follow this story all throughout the day. I'm going to be live here now all throughout the 9:00 hour.