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Update on Shootings in the Office of "Charlie Hebdo" Magazine in Paris

Aired January 8, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Right now it's 9:30 at night in Paris, which means two brothers suspected in the magazine "Charlie Hebdo," the slaughter there, they are spending another night on the run again with cover of darkness under which to hide. But police believe they know where to look.

We now know about the security checkpoints that are still set up in this 12-mile radius of a gas station. This is just northeast of Paris where Cherif and Said Kouachi reportedly robbed this gas station attendant, reportedly stealing gas and food before heading back toward Paris. Since then police are also swarming nearby villages and more rural areas where a number of police raids have taken place.

Also today, France's interior minister says nine people linked to this shooting are in custody. That's the latest number we have. Let me show you just an absolutely powerful tribute to victims of the massacre at "Charlie Hebdo" offices in Paris happening at the top of the last hour.

The Eiffel Tower going dark. Every light on this famous landmark was dimmed to honor the 12 people killed at the offices from yesterday morning.

Let me go to Paris and let me bring in CNN's chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour.

And Christiane, let me begin with your interview, we'll talk in a moment. But let me plays down. You spoke with a French foreign minister today, the first time he's spoken since the atrocities, let me play that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You yourself once said about this magazine, "Charlie Hebdo", that it was pouring fuel on fire. That it was being very, very provocative. How difficult is it, do you think, to have this kind of freedom of expression? Do you think they went too far?

LAURENT FABIUS, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): No. You are right to ask me the question because we have to be extremely clear. Press freedom, you journalists, press freedom is a sacred principle. There's no democracy without freedom. There is no freedom without freedom of the press. That does not mean that you always like what you read. And maybe "Charlie Hebdo" sometimes has been provocative.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Christiane, tell me more about the interview. And were you surprised by that response?

AMANPOUR: No, I wasn't surprised. Because yes, Fabius and many others, even the White House and others in the past have criticized "Charlie Hebdo" for going over the line. You know, so much of what they did actually did caused some violent backlash. But in this moment, it was clear, it's been clarified to everybody and then what he said was so important. There is no democracy without freedom. There's no freedom without freedom of the press.

These are really strong words and they are really powerful words and they really mean a huge amount and everybody has been clear about that in these last 24 hours since the terrible attack. As he said, this is actually the worst attack in France in 50 years, the foreign minister told me, and that, you know, this wasn't random. This was deliberate against the press and this is a moment where everything changes, he said.

And you know, you just have been showing this dramatic video of the Eiffel Tower and in a somber and somber and smaller way just behind me, there are so many candles, there are so many people still, flowers and tributes and just you know, cannot believe that this happened to 12 people. Two of them were police. They were using their pens for a living and just poking fun and not hurting anybody or killing anybody.

BALDWIN: Let's talk about that. Just a shortly speaking in France, I mean, we here in the United States talk a lot about, of course, the freedom of speech. But in France this goes very, very far back. And this is something that is really embraced in this culture.

AMANPOUR: Well look, it's in every culture that's a democracy. And yes, France is the oldest. It's the oldest U.S. ally. It was one of the first to have this kind of revolutionary freedom for the people, freedom of the press, freedom of expression. And it takes it very, very seriously.

This is the city of lights. The light of the enlightenment and not just lights they light up this city with so well, but the light of freedom and the light of democracy and the light of moral values. And that's been under assault.

But what's so dramatic and what the foreign minister said as well is that the outpouring of support not just around this country where tens if not hundreds of thousands of people have already come out last night and are planning a massive silent march on Sunday throughout the country to defy this terror.

This is something that really got a huge amount of strength and substance (ph) from. They are so moved and grateful for the support from the United States. The fact that secretary of state John Kerry spoke directly to the French in French yesterday. I mean, people are still talking about it. And it means a huge amount to people over here.

So this is one of those moments where, you know, such a horrifying assault takes place and everybody galvanizes around, you know, what they need to galvanize around. People suddenly understand the clarity of what's at stake here.

BALDWIN: I wonder how that resonated. Secretary Kerry speaking at length in French. And I love how you point, city of light, lights of enlightenment.

Christiane Amanpour in Paris for us tonight. Christiane, always appreciate it.

Part of the horror of what happened in the magazine offices was captured by a French filmmaker. He taped this attack unfolding with gunmen in the street shouting, God is great. He talked to Anderson Cooper about what we saw.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARTIN BOOUDOE, JOURNALIST: Well, a colleague of mine was going for a smoke outside and he told us that two guys, two persons were standing out and trying to get in with (INAUDIBLE). So we heard the first shots and then more and more shots, right across the whole, five or six minutes away.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, AC 360: That close?

BOOUDOE: Yes. It's basically (INAUDIBLE).

COOPER: Did you know instantly that they were shots?

BOOUDOE: No. At first, we just heard shots. We heard screams and then we tried to get to the roof.

COOPER: You ran up to the roof?

BOOUDOE: Yes. We went to the roof and try to -- try to, you know, avoid bullets from it and try to keep all the agency safe. It is like 20 people, our chief agency.

COOPER: It's incredible, though. I mean, the video that you took and we're looking at some of it now, I mean, this went on for a number of minutes. I think five to ten minutes or so. Is that about how long it was?

BOOUDOE: Yes, from five to ten, at least. It seemed like it was, you know, so much longer. And then the cops arrived and they just stop shooting them. And we didn't know.

COOPER: The police stop shooting them or the terrorist start shooting the police?

BOOUDOE: The terrorist start shooting police. And then we didn't know what they were supposed to do because, you know, we were stuck on this roof. We knew there were victims a few minutes away from us, but there might be somewhere or maybe a third guy. And they were yelling. So finally, what we did, we went to Shali Abdul's office. The very first doctors and we got --

COOPER: You actually entered the offices?

BOOUDOE: Yes, right after, I mean, probably from ten to 15 minutes after they left.

COOPER: In the scene there?

BOOUDOE: You know, it was like, slaughtering. It was like a massacre. It could see the bodies on the left into the meeting room and the other people from Shali Abdul who were spared or were hiding. And they were just standing like, not zombies, but they were like standing and didn't do anything. And we tried to help the very first wounded but actually to be honest, there were a lot of wounded. They were just people dead all around.

COOPER: And when you saw the crowds here in Paris, in other places in France and also all throughout the world, frankly?

BOOUDOE: It's very touching. It's beyond words. That means a lot for us. Especially when, you know, the U.K., the U.S., Montreal.

COOPER: If the idea was to silence freedom of expression --

BOOUDOE: Well, it's failed.

COOPER: It's failed.

BOOUDOE: If they wanted to make Shali Abdul disappear, they actually made it a legend, you know. Shali is now a legend. And well, thanks to them, actually, I think that's good punishment.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Coming up next, radical Islam. So often we are hearing it's the motivation for many of these mass murderers especially in recent attacks. My next guest says this could suggest a race between terror groups like ISIS and Al-Qaeda.

You're watching CNN. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: The slaughter in France at this satirical magazine offices of "Charlie Hebdo," no doubt, heartbreaking and enraging and perhaps sadly of all-frustrating because the apparent motivation behind mass murder in Paris are not new. The warped beliefs of radical Islam are linked to an attack last month that killed two innocent in a chocolate cafe there in Sydney. In that same month, it played part in slaughter of 132 children and 13 adults at a school in Pakistan. And it's believed to be behind the murder of a soldier outside of Canada's capitol building in Ottawa. Those places are supposed to be peaceful. For months and months we

have seen how religious extremism has ripped apart war-torn Syria and Iraq.

Let me bring in two experts to talk about radical Islam in France and beyond. Jocelyne Cesari is a director of the Islam in the West program at Harvard and author of "Why the west fears Islam, an exploration of Muslims in Liberal democracy." And also again with me today, the author of this French book "Al Qaida en France," Samuel Laurent.

So welcome to both of you.

And Samuel, we just got some news here. Let me just -- thank you both.

We have some news. This is according to the French justice minister. As we talk about these two brothers who are still on the run, one of the two brothers traveled to Yemen in 2005 and tried to go to Iraq in 2008. We don't know which brother it was but ultimately one was convicted later on. What do you make of that, Samuel?

SAMUEL LAURENT, AUTHOR, AL QAIDA EN FRANCE: OK. Actually, this man has been involved in a very well known trafficking network of French and European Jihadi to Iraq and he's been convicted in 2008. After 18 months in prison, he's been released. And basically, the most striking question this evening is how such a carefully monitored or supposed to be carefully monitored Jihadi which was very involved and very active in radical Islam have been able to basically train and prepare such a sophisticated attack. And I think that there, we are touching through again a very, very deep and serious security failure inside the French intelligence and security system.

BALDWIN: So you have this issue of perhaps, you know, this happens not just in France but in slipping through the cracks, Jocelyne. One of the themes and sort of what I've been hearing and reading is this new wave of terrorism., though. This questions, you talk about these, you know, lone wolves and then you talk about massive terror organizations. And then you have the in betweens. (INAUDIBLE) referred to them as a wolf pack. Here, multiple people inspired by or perhaps directed by greater organizations. Knowing this about Yemen and Iraq -- go ahead, Samuel.

LAURENT: Sorry. If I may precise something. There is actually this problem with ISIS. ISIS Jihadi are popping up every day. We have official figures of 500 people but we have actually much closer figure to 2,000 fighters from France in Syria and Iraq. So those people are very difficult to track because the profile is very different. We have 14-year-old Jihadi girls which are willing to live to Syria. So it's very difficult.

But actually, there. We're talking about a very established and very old structure that was basically depending straight on Al-Qaeda. And so, therefore, those people that have been imprisoned, at least one of them, have been in prison in 2008. So therefore, you know, we're not talking about something new. BALDWIN: Correct.

LAURENT: I think it's the biggest issue this evening.

BALDWIN: Jocelyne, go ahead.

JOCELYNE CESARI, AUTHOR, WHY THE WEST FEARS ISLAM: Yes. I think what we are witnessing is indeed something that's not new. We know the influence of Al-Qaeda and ISIS, ideology among Muslims in the west and particularly in Europe. I would say it's also true in other parts of the Muslim world. But in Europe, I have been studying this for longer than 15 years and you can see that (INAUDIBLE) and ISIS which is to pitch Islam against the west. And to describe the west as an enemy of Islam and not only a military enemy but more importantly (INAUDIBLE), an enemy that is here to destroy the soul of Muslims.

This kind of rhetoric has lots of influence among young people especially young people who are not part of strong communities. These two young men were brothers. Disconnected from broader community, from broader mainstream social relations and very much like the two Tsarnaev brothers. That the suspect, the trial of one of them is going to start pretty soon in Boston.

So you see here that these young men were not automatically differ from (INAUDIBLE) or lacking education. But they don't feel that they fit in and they want to be Muslim and they live in an environment not only in France, but I would say all over Europe where being an assertive Muslim becomes more and more difficult before this tragic attack. There were attacks on mosques in the (INAUDIBLE). There are demonstrations against Islam in Germany. But we have to put this attack in broader framework. It's not just freedom of speech only. It is against any kind of --

BALDWIN: It's so much bigger than that. Absolutely. It is so much bigger than that.

Go ahead, Samuel. Final thought.

LAURENT: No, actually, we should not only victimize now Islam and try to say that there is -- we should basically spot the divide between radical Islam and moderate Islam. I think nowadays, you're right. Those people were not inserted into the large community of French citizens but actually there were inserted into a very efficient, very strong, and very cohesive community which is growing more and more at a very fast pace which is the celafy (ph) community. And I agree that there is a very, very big difference to be drawn between a moderate and radical Islam.

CESARI: I completely agree.

LAURENT: But for nowadays -- I'm sorry, for nowadays we should basically focus on these celafy (ph) networks because they represent a clear threat not only to French citizens, but also as you mentioned to Muslim at large.

BALDWIN: The greater going community is incredibly worried. Samuel Laurent, thank you. And Jocelyne, so, sorry, we have to go,

but I really appreciate both of you. Thank you so much.

Coming up next, the scenes in France there, obviously dredging a punting memories as we've been referring to the last two hours of what happened in Boston two springs ago. How the manhunt after the marathon bombing compares with what's happening now in France?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: For many, the sudden deadly attack on the satirical French magazine, "Charlie Hebdo," reminds us of what happened in Boston two years ago right after the marathon. Both seems well-planned out, both triggered massive manhunts. Both were caught on video.

According to the police in Paris, we know, both involve brothers working together as terrorists and both were terrifyingly fatal.

Our Deborah Feyerick has been looking into the similarities and what they mean. I keep going back as I keep hearing new details, you know, just reminds me of being in Boston and everything that happened.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there is no question about this. The similarities are really striking. First of all, one of the reasons that the brothers really stayed together in part is because like in order to maintain sort of an operational secrecy, they couldn't expand the circle of people who were involved especially because you have U.S. law enforcement, you have French law enforcement, and intelligence that is so good that the only way to carry these things out is to make sure the group you're talking to is extremely small. That's why family and brothers gravitate towards each other.

There is also the similarities, these were children of immigrants, immigrants who had deep ties to the countries from which they came. So sort of a dual allegiance. And so, when the brothers began to feel they were becoming outliers either on Massachusetts or Paris, what ended up happening is that they began seeking jihad, defensible jihad as the term experts are using. That means that they could wage war in Iraq or Syria.

They also each fell under the influence of radical preachers. In the case of the Tsarnaev, the (INAUDIBLE) who was preaching lone wolf insurgency. And in the case, however, of the Kouachis, they fell under the influence of a Paris radicalized preacher who said go fight jihad in Iraq. And so, that's what the Kouachis were trying to do.

But also so interesting is that, although they were trying to maintain sort of an operational secrecy, they were well on the path to radicalization and ultimately they did travel to the countries in which their beliefs became almost more deeply ingrained. The Kouachis were able to get from Syria, we're now learning, they returned last summer, whereas Tamerlan Tsarnaev was able to get to Dagestan. And that's really when, I think, things change according to law enforcement. This idea that they are going to become empowered through violence, violence in the countries that they were now rejecting is very clear.

BALDWIN: Incredible. We'll look for your reporting at 7:00?

FEYERICK: Yes.

BALDWIN: 7:00 o'clock in Erin Burnett.

Deborah Feyerick, thank you very much. Special coverage continues after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't actually put it together particularly for publication. I saw the breaking news as I was about to go to bed here in Australia and stayed up to watch the events unfolding on television.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): When I heard the names a cold came over my body. I knew them. I knew them well. I was outraged.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The blood that it was shared from these cartoonists is going to fear actually more. And it is going to continue in the charging in (INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEOTAPE)

END