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CNN NEWSROOM
Filmmaker Talks about Paris Attack Horror; 9 Arrested by French Police as Manhunt Continues; Political Cartoonist Talks About Friends at "Charlie Hebdo"; Should Media Outlets Show Satirical Content; Cartoonists Stand in Solidarity with "Charlie Hebdo"
Aired January 8, 2015 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
The full horror of what happened in Paris was captured by a French filmmaker that taped video of this attack unfolding with gunmen in the street shouting, "God is great." He spoke with CNN's Anderson Cooper about this chilling video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN BOUDOT, REPORTER DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: A colleague of mine was going for a smoke outside and he told us that two persons were standing out and trying to get in. So we heard the very first shots and then more shots right across five or six meters away. And --
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, A.C. 360: That close?
BOUDOT: Yes.
COOPER: 15, 20 feet or so.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Did you know instantly that they were shots?
BOUDOT: No. No, no. At first we just heard shots. We heard screams. And then we tried to get on the roof and --
COOPER: You ran up to the roof?
BOUDOT: Yeah, we went to the roof and tried to avoid bullets from -- and try to keep all of the agency safe, like 20 people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: That was CNN's Anderson Cooper speaking with a filmmaker, Martin Boudot.
Let's take you to, as we've been reporting, nine people in custody here as French investigators and police are searching for these two terrorists. We go live to Atika Shubert in Longpont, France, near where this
police raid has taken place.
Atika, tell me what you have seen and what police are telling you.
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What we see is a country road going to the village of Longpont, about four kilometers away. This is closest that police will let us get to the village.
What we know is that this is where heavily armed police, SWAT teams, have been conducting house-to-house searches earlier today. So far, we have not heard of them finding anything. It's possible the search has been widened to the forested area nearby. This is a large forest, several thousand acres big. So it will take a lot of time to comb through this. But this does seem to be the epicenter of that manhunt as it stands now -- Brooke?
BALDWIN: As we await word for police to comb through this forest, let me ask you about this gas station where the two terrorists, these two brothers were reportedly seen earlier. The gas station attendant was threatened. You saw dozens of people there, Atika. Describe that scene.
SHUBERT: That's right. That's less than 12 miles that way. Basically we were at the gas station. That's where, at 10:30 this morning, a gas attendant says the two suspects came, they were armed, and they stole fuel and food and then quickly left. The gas attendant recognizing them, called up the police and let them know. That's how police were alerted to this area and tipped off.
Now, when I was there, I saw a forensics van and a number of plain- clothes policemen inside the shop at the gas station looking around the area of the cash register and looking possibly at CCTV footage. We saw a number of cameras outside there. So clearly trying to track down what the suspects were doing there and where perhaps they were going to next.
This is just a short distance from that gas station. There's some security analysts that are speculating that they may be trying to take back roads to try and avoid police. In fact, there are checkpoints just a short distance. 10 minutes from here, we passed a checkpoint where they checked all of the cars, looking inside, so they are clearly trying to close the net on the suspects.
BALDWIN: This is reminding me of being in Boston while they were searching for those two Tsarnaev brothers.
Atika Shubert live near the epicenter of this manhunt.
Atika, thank you.
Meantime, the 23 victims of the "Charlie Hebdo" massacre have not all been identified. Of the 12 people who did die, this is what we know. All of the cartoonists and all of the journalists had forged solid reputations for lampooning the high and mighty, no matter who they were. No target was too taboo. No content too offensive. And they took pleasure at poking religion in the eye and were fearless in the face of threats and attack. The firebombing of "Charlie Hebdo" in November of 2011 emboldened them to be more brazen and more provocative in their pages in the magazine.
Georges Wolinski's daughter expressed her sorry with this picture of her father's office, saying -- I'll translate it for you as you see the picture -- "Papa is gone, not Wolenski."
Kianoush Ramezani is a political cartoonist who ran afoul of the religious authorities in his native Iran. He left Iran I 2009 and now lives in Paris.
Kianoush, welcome.
KIANOUSH RAMEZANI, POLITICAL CARTOONIST: Thank you very much.
BALDWIN: I am very sorry for your colleagues who you have lost. I understand you knew several of them. I want to ask you about them. First, I understand you were friends with Coco (ph), the mother, who apparently was threatened and had returned with her child, according to reports, and was with her child when she was threatened to type in this code. Have you been in touch with her? How is she doing?
RAMEZANI: Actually, I guess that she's the first one that I could have access because I only have her number. And as soon as I heard about this terrible problem, I just called her, and she couldn't talk very well, and I just asked if she's OK. That's the only question I could ask. And, yeah, that's all, that's all. And then I seen the name of my friend among the artists who had been killed.
BALDWIN: I understand you knew Charb as well. Can you tell me about them?
RAMEZANI: I have been with Tignous -- the last time that we had been together was in September of 2014. We have been participated in one festival and we had a very long and beautiful time together. We exchanged talk about freedom of expression and how tough it is to be an exile. And Tignous was exhorting to us as cartoonists how we are at risk and how we are safe in France.
BALDWIN: How much --
(CROSSTALK)
RAMEZANI: That's the phrase that I'll never forget.
BALDWIN: Wow. How much did that sense of risk worry him on a daily basis?
RAMEZANI: I think they were aware of the risk or the situation they were facing since 2011. I remember, in 2011, I bet met Charb. We participated in a mission, in a television here. I said, you are in high danger, you are at risk, you are in high danger, are you aware of that. He said, no, don't worry, I'm in France. And by the way, I don't have anything to lose so I will continue. And I have my own bodyguards and I'm not in Iran. And he made fun of the subjects. BALDWIN: He made fun of the subject. Sounds like they were well
aware. He had his own personal protection.
Kianoush, this seems to be a galvanizing moment for cartoonists, such as yourself, and journalists and those in favor of freedom of speech. Do you see, as a cartoonist yourself, possible to go too far, whether you are drawing a cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad, or of Jesus Christ? At what point is it unacceptable?
RAMEZANI: Well, this is a question of taste. Some cartoonists prefer to draw about prophets and about Jesus and Muhammad. Some cartoonists prefer not to do it. But right now, I think something important happened to us. We are much more about freedom of expression. Since yesterday, I have received more than 100 cartoons from many, many friends and colleagues from all over the world. We are exchanging cartoons about "Charlie," and "Charlie" became a symbol for us. "Charlie" now belongs to the world and belongs to all cartoonists in the world. It's not a French journal at all. And that's the change. I believe that they lost their lives for this value, which is freedom, freedom of expression. And now it's our responsibility to defend it in a way that it should be. We are cartoonists. We are not criminals. And we want to alert society. We want to show the reality to people, to the world. That's what we are -- what we are for. And I am very, very sad and, at the same time, very, very, very motivated more than before in a way to go too far for freedom of expression. But personally, maybe I will have some different point of view or tastes to my friends who are working with "Charlie Hebdo." I don't care. I support them. Freedom is freedom.
BALDWIN: I think the magazine recognizes that as well. Despite the bloodshed in their own offices, they'll continue and they'll publish the next magazine next week.
Kianoush Ramezani, in Paris tonight.
Kianoush, thank you.
Next, one question in the wake of all these attacks, should media outlets be showing these satirical cartoons? CNN is choosing not to. Critics are blasting our network and other papers and other outlets as well. Carl Bernstein, Brian Stelter debate this big discussion.
We'll be right back.
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BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
This attack on the satirical magazine, "Charlie Hebdo," is being described as an attack on free speech. But in democracies, should there ever be a limit on what you can say and what you cannot? Days ago, we were having a debate over the movie "The Interview." It depicted the assassination of Kim Jong-Un. And even before hackers attacked the studio, Sony Pictures, critics said the film went too far. And the Obama administration was criticizing the French magazine a couple years ago for being too insensitive. CNN, along with other major news networks and newspapers choosing not to show should media outlets be showing these satirical cartoons. That decision has sparked debate among journalists and beyond.
Let me bring in the Carl Bernstein, CNN political analyst and a well- noted journalist and author; and Brian Stelter, host of CNN's "Reliable Sources."
Gentlemen, welcome to both of you.
CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST & JOURNALIST & AUTHOR: Good to be here.
BALDWIN: Let's begin with, do you think news organizations should be showing these cartoons?
BERNSTEIN: I think this is one of the most difficult questions there is to answer and there's no definitive yes-or-no answer to it that's necessarily right. I do believe we should show the image at this point after the fact.
BALDWIN: Why?
BERNSTEIN: As a matter of intellectual honesty. Solidarity and freedom of expression and freedom of religion, freedom to practice religion are all based on the same principle, and I think we need to assert it. At the same time, I think focusing on the American, and the European media, we need to focus on Islamic media. This is a big problem. The whole question of Islamic terror is a huge question for the Islamic media. They haven't responded. They haven't been courageous for years. It's time for them to take a look at their actions. I'm much more interested in them.
What's happened in Paris is a huge problem indicative of what the Islamic world faces today and we need to look at that, and they need to be coming up with some solutions.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: And some condemnation --
BALDWIN: Absolutely.
BERNSTEIN: -- and action in the capitals of the Islamic and Arab world, presidents of the countries with huge Islamic populations, working with the United States, working with other governments in Europe to fight terrorism as a fundamental practice of their governance.
BALDWIN: We had an entire segment of experts who would agree with you.
That's interesting. That's the first time I heard about Islamic media.
Mr. Stelter. BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT & CNN HOST, RELIABLE SOURCES: And al Jazeera, by the way, has chosen to do what CNN has done, which is to --
BALDWIN: Not show the cartoons.
STELTER: -- not show those images of Muhammad.
BALDWIN: Walk us through. Let's be a tad transparent in terms of our own decision making. It's safety. It's also part of policy. This is insensitive religious material.
STELTER: And it's not an entirely new issue. CNN decided in the past, years ago, not to show other images that would be considered sacrilegious to many Muslims, cartoons from Denmark a number of years ago.
I want to agree with what Carl is saying. And I think every journalistic bone in our body does. But there's the other side, which is the editor or executive who decides to run these images and has an act of violence occur against a staff member.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: There comes a point when we have to be courageous. And this is the point where we need some solidarity. We need to be courageous. I agree totally you shouldn't show these images that are blasphemous to another people before an event like this --
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: But as a response, just like the case with Sony. I'm the one that said that Sony, on our air, that the movie was a horror in conception. There was no need to show what it showed and, at the same time, the craven behavior of the studios, Sony, early on, the whole industry, that there had to be solidarity, and we all including CNN, including Time Warner, had to show that movie. I think the same principle obtained here.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: But at the same time, I'm well aware how hard this decision is and that you can have a reasonable opinion on the other side.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: But what about safety?
(CROSSTALK)
STELTER: -- the head of our network, Jeff Zucker, brought up this morning.
(CROSSTALK) BALDWIN: And we have heard this before and it's come up in other instances in stories we were covering because, unlike some of these other blogs that don't have correspondents in these hot areas where wars are being waged, we do.
STELTER: Right.
BALDWIN: We do.
BERNSTEIN: That's why I talk about solidarity. I think that if our industry, if our intellectual fervor and firmament were to be united on this question, then I think we gain some safety and we can act courageously.
STELTER: You're describing safety in numbers.
BERNSTEIN: Exactly. As a movement of solidarity, yesterday, I was one of the first to sign the pen petition saying that we, as writers and artists, believe that this material must be shown. Indeed, as it's been said, we're all "Charlie Hebdo" in this situation.
STELTER: There is safety, but also the issue of offense. It does create a great offense. That is the other --
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: I understand.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: I agree. Somehow we need to explain that this is not intended as offense. It's intended as news and as what we believe in, so that you can practice your religion.
STELTER: Right. For what it's worth, the head of another major division, not CNN, but another, say, we're reserving the right to show these cartoons in the future. Just because we're not today doesn't mean we won't tomorrow. And I do wonder --
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: It's a very hard call. "The Washington Post" editorial page --
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: -- of all things, posted it. Good for "The Washington Post" in this instance. But I think, again, back to your question of safety, more and more institutions need to do it. And not rub it in anybody's face or anything of the kind. But to say --
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: -- this is what we believe. And I think we need to go back to the question, the larger question of what's going on in the Islamic world. Let's take a terrible comparison of Nazi, Germany. There is entirely, and has been for years since 9/11, too much silence in Islamic world about terrorism.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: But some experts say that these leaders in these nations, who should be condemning this now --
BERNSTEIN: Yes.
BALDWIN: -- have their hands tied.
BERNSTEIN: Well, they don't. Because they are the leaders of the country and there are also religious leaders, Islamic religious leaders who need to get on al Jazeera and say --
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: Why aren't they?
BERNSTEIN: Maybe they are. I don't want to judge that they're not.
BALDWIN: A lot of them aren't.
BERNSTEIN: But I think it's time for the Islamic world and the so- called moderate forces of Islam in which there are hundreds of millions of people, we are not, that they have to organize.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: The president of Tunisia is a likely a guy who might be involved. Just as we had the struggled to contain Communism for generations, we need a world struggle to contain terrorism, intellectual basis for it, media basis for it, an armament basis for it, if need be, if it comes to conflict. We need a strategy that brings all of these things together. And to me, that's the significance of Paris that we have now come to a particular juncture in this struggle that, hopefully, is going to produce not so much a reaction here, but there.
BALDWIN: You have a big show on your hands with all this, Brian Stelter, on Sunday.
Carl Bernstein, thank you so much. It's an excellent point. We'll continue that conversation.
BERNSTEIN: Thank you.
BALDWIN: Brian Stelter, thank you very much.
Next, police right now conducting raids inside homes in the search for two terror suspects in this attack. We'll take you there live.
Plus, hear what the United States is doing in surveillance of its high-profile terror suspects.
Stay right here. You're watching CNN.
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BALDWIN: After news broke of the attack of the French satirical magazine, "Charlie Hebdo," cartoonists and illustrators felt compelled to stand up for their craft. Within hours, tribute cartoons started appearing online. Some cartoons are heartbreaking, some are hopeful, but all resonate with emotions that are raw.
Here's how some cartoonists reflected this tragedy in art.
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(MUSIC)
DAVID POPE, CARTOONIST: I didn't actually put it together particularly for publication. I saw the breaking news as I was about to go to bed here in Australia and stayed up to watch the events unfolding on television.
(MUSIC)
UNIDENTIFIED CARTOONIST (through translation): When I heard the names, I fully realized, a cold came over my body. I knew them. I knew them well. I am outraged.
(MUSIC)
FELICE GALINDO (ph), CARTOONIST: The blood that was shed from these cartoonists is going to feel actually more. The will continue in the "Charlie Hebdo."
(MUSIC)
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