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DR. DREW

The Conversation About The Documentary Of "Making A Murderer"; Nancy Grace And Dr. Drew Thinks Steven Avery Is Guilty; Evidence Appears To Support Avery`s Claims Of Innocence; Steven Avery Has Something In Common With Jodi Arias And O.J. Simpson And It Does Not Have Anything To Do With This Crime; Steven Avery`s Cousin Testified That He Ran Her Off The Road And Pointed A Gun At Her; Netflix "Making A Murderer" Featured Steven Avery Was A Sexual Deviant Who Was Also Violent, A Lifelong Pattern; A Lot Of Manipulation With 16-Year-Old, Brendan Dassey`s Deposition; New Information About The Affluenza Teen And His Mom

Aired January 5, 2015 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(MUSIC PLAYING)

[21:00:13] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM: All right. Nancy Grace thinks Steven Avery, guilty. I think Steven Avery

guilty. We are continuing the conversation about the documentary of "Making A Murderer." Thousands of you want him set free the two convicted

murderer. It does not matter what any of us want, frankly. The jury has spoken.

But, if you have only seen the Netflix series, you have not seen all the evidence. The documentary with a particular point of view, leaving out

a lot and only showing you courtroom proceedings and only interviewing the defense. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEN KRATZ, FMR. DISTRICT ATTORNEY CALUMET: But, I think it is irresponsible to suggest that both sides of this case were presented in any

fairway.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: There was, in fact, a great deal of evidence that was left out of this documentary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Her cremated remains were just steps away from his trailer. They were identified through DNA.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Forensic evidence, including Avery`s blood was found inside theresa is car. Her DNA was found in a bullet

fragment found inside his home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

KRATZ: Just the fraction of a forensic and physical evidence that it was my responsibility ten years ago to present the two different juries.

We did that. They found this planting defense to be nonsense. And, I hope the general public, once they hear the rest of the story, is going to feel

the same way.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: Joining me to discuss, Samantha Schacher, "Pop Trigger" on Hulu.com; Loni Coombs, former Prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect and

Other Lies Parents Tell"; Darren Kavinocky, Attorney, host of "Deadly Sins" on Investigation Discovery. And, Erin Foster, Psychotherapist. All right

-- When I said that he was guilty, you gasped, Sam.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: Yes. I did, Dr. Drew. I am wondering did the prosecution get to you? What do they have on you?

How do you say he is guilty?

(LAUGHING)

DARREN KAVINOKY, ATTORNEY: Well, do not make any statements, Drew.

PINSKY: Thank you. My representation is here. Let me tell you the first bit of evidence that I find extremely difficult.

SCHACHER: The animal part?

PINSKY: Right.

SCHACHER: Oh, my God. I know but he was young. Believe me, when I saw that, I was like ready to wash my hands and stop the documentary.

PINSKY: He was convicted of animal cruelty. It was worse than the series portrayed. Here is what you saw on the film.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVEN AVERY, CONVICTED OF MURDER AND VIOLENT SEXUAL ASSAULT: : I had a bunch of friends over, who were fooling around with the cat. And, I

do not know, they were kind of negative. I tossed him over the fire and he lit up. You know, it was the cat -- I was young and stupid

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And, he is even lying here. Actually, what he did was he poured gasoline over the cat and tossed it in the fire.

SCHACHER: I know. I do not even like hearing that. I know.

PINSKY: He was then charged with animal cruelty.

SCHACHER: I know.

PINSKY: Hold on a second. Hold on.

SCHACHER: Does not mean he has to spend his whole life in prison.

PINSKY: Hold up. Slow up. Hold your roll. Erin, what is it? You are a psychotherapist, what does it imply when somebody has these sorts of

cruelty acts against animals? Just in general what does it make you think of?

ERIN FOSTER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: In general it makes me wonder if I have a true sociopath on my --

PINSKY: Or even a psychopath.

FOSTER: Or a psychopath. But to me, it is indicative of anti-social personality disorder.

PINSKY: OK, which is the kind of person that ends up in cuffs. Darren roll.

KAVINOKY: Here is -- and thank you for that. But, here is the problem. This is a perfect example of evidence that is immiscible in the

court of public opinion.

PINSKY: Yes. But, listen --

KAVINOKY: But the court of the law, what does that have to do with the events?

PINSKY: It does not, but we are out here fighting a mob, who has seen a documentary with a particular point of view who wants to string me up,

who want to put him out of prison. And, Sam, you said he was young and stupid when he threw the cat in -- how old was he? How old was he?

SCHACHER: I do not know the exact date.

PINSKY: What do you imagine?

SCHACHER: I do not like it, period, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Hang on. Imagine. What age? What do you think that --

SCHACHER: I do not like it regardless. You know me, I am a huge animal person. So, for me, that is enough from the court of public

opinion.

PINSKY: So, are you thinking a teenager or something?

SCHACHER: Well, I also know that they are not the highest of intelligence. They -- a lot of intoxication. I am not making excuse for

it. That is the most deplorable behavior, but is it enough to --

PINSKY: Hold on.

SCHACHER: -- lock somebody up for life, Dr. Drew?

PINSKY: You are jumping way ahead of me. I just want to know what age guy -- what you thought you saw on that documentary as you thought of

what age person probably engaged in that animal cruelty?

SCHACHER: A teenager.

PINSKY: A teen, that is what imagine too. It turns out he was like 20. He is an adult.

SCHACHER: It is not that far off, but --

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: The cerebral cortex is not finished developing until 25. So, yes, 20 is an adult legally, but brain we are

always talking about the brain there. We are always giving the people up to 25. We breaks because of that, right?

PINSKY: I understand. And, we are talking about the frontal lobe of the brain. I hold up my brain to remind everybody --

COOMBS: There you go.

PINSKY: -- that in males particularly this does not get going until about 25 or so. But, Loni, let me go to you next.

COOMBS: Sure.

PINSKY: Avery also has a history of violence against women. A lot of it. The film showed just a little bit, Avery once held his female cousin

at gunpoint. A local newspaper, the Appleton Post Crescent, reports he raped the young girl and threatened to kill her family if they spoke out,

allegedly.

[21:05:05] COOMBS: Allegedly.

SCHACHER: They are alleged.

PINSKY: Anybody else have any alleged newspapers articles about them raping and killing a family?

COOMBS: No, no, no. No, no, no. No. No. No. Just let me finish. When you want to finish giving -- There was another young woman who said

that he apparently raped her, too. Here is my issue with that, though.

These are all just reports. These were not vetted. They were not evidence presented in court. And, we know how things get out there and get

spun. You saw some of that on the documentary.

PINSKY: Yes. Documentaries.

COOMBS: Exactly.

KAVINOKY: But, wait a second --

COOMBS: So, you cannot just say, "Well, just because I read this in an article somewhere, then obviously he is violent towards women because --

PINSKY: All right. Erin -- Erin, of -- if somebody really has never engaged in this kind of violence, do you think there is likely to be

articles written about them? Also by the way --

COOMBS: Do they go to prison for 18 years?

(CROSSTALK)

SCHACHER: Yes.

COOMBS: Maybe they do when they are not guilty!

SCHACHER: He was also always a person of interest within this police department, Dr. Drew. They did not like his family. The family was

shunned upon because they were not intelligent, because they were not pillars of the community. These are all things that you are glossing over.

Again --

PINSKY: That could be true.

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: But, during his initial that the wrongful prison sentence --

SCHACHER: Wrongful.

PINSKY: No one -- and by the way, we have not yet brought out his nephew, which is a whole other story.

COOMBS: Right.

PINSKY: And, by the way, a much more serious concerns about that. We will get to that soon. But, Avery, allegedly, during that inappropriate

sentencing told an inmate as he was about to come out of prison that he planned a torture chamber. He planned to build. Take a listen. Take a

look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST OF "NANCY GRACE" PROGRAM: Behind bars, he is festering and talking about his dream torture chamber for women that he

wants to kidnap, rape, torture and kill. Was that ever mentioned by Netflix?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No, that was not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And, drew a picture of it for one of the other inmates and apparently people have seen that picture. I am just saying.

COOMBS: Apparently where? Why have not we seen it anywhere?

KAVINOKY: But, wait a second. Putting aside the issue of guilt, because I know you have already gone on record and say that you judge him

guilty. What we really need to focus on is the integrity of the justice system.

SCHACHER: Yes.

KAVINOKY: It is the prosecution who has the only burden of proof.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

KAVINOKY: Thank you. It is stunning for me. I am not used to hearing that sound when I speak. Sorry.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Darren, let me just say. The integrity of injustice system - - of the justice system --

(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)

SCHACHER: Freudian slip.

PINSKY: Yes, it was -- was carefully examined and that is why this killer/rapist was let go upon the community again. Are we going to do that

again in the name of carefully ironing out the justice system?

SCHACHER: Carefully examine, Dr. Drew.

KAVINOKY: One of the things that has gone on recently in America, which I think is a great thing, is that with the popularity of "Making A

Murderer" serial shows like mine on investigation discovery, if I can quickly mention that -- there has been more cases where there has been a

real parsing of the evidence.

And, I think the headline is that the headline in these cases is it is not always indicative of what is really going on. If you look at the

Steven Avery case and you look at some of these issues, which I would categorize as lack of integrity of the justice system issues, it really

leaves one to wonder. And, you have to pause and look --

PINSKY: But, no, what I want to look at is -- I will grant you, there were some issues in this case. No one can argue that. What I am having

trouble with is the mob that is out there, wanting -- I do not know what it wants, based on watching a television show.

SCHACHER: But it is the injustice, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: No, no. Sam?

SCHACHER: Whether he is guilty or not guilty --

PINSKY: Sam!

SCHACHER: Hold on.

PINSKY: Its injustice is built on a television show.

SCHACHER: Whether he is guilty or not guilty, the lack of evidence --

PINSKY: Based on a T.V. show.

COOMBS: No. But, Dr. Drew, when you look at the videotape of that confession given by the nephew --

PINSKY: We are talking about Brendan now?

COOMBS:

PINSKY: No, no. Well, the nephew, we are going to get to that.

COOMBS: You are saying a television show, people cannot get -- you are seeing actual videotape of the investigation.

PINSKY: Yes. And, that is what we are going --

COOMBS: It is more than just a T.V. show.

PINSKY: Listen. That is where I am going to agree with you, guys. When it comes to Brendan, I am going to agree with you guys, it is because

of that tape that we are going to look at. But, Erin, when we evaluate a patient, we evaluate what people are saying about them, what else is out

there.

Because if the patient is lying all the time, just the way someone who will get on the stand always -- how many of you people have you defended

say they are innocent on the stand? 80 percent, 90 percent? Darren, how many?

KAVINOKY: Well, no.

PINSKY: 100 percent.

KAVINOKY: That take the stand, how many claimed --

PINSKY: Yes.

KAVINOKY: Well, of course. They are not getting up on the stand --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Not to get on the stand, to get in a courtroom and need a defense. At what percent?

KAVINOKY: What percent?

PINSKY: Say they are innocent?

KAVINOKY: All of them.

PINSKY: All of them say they are innocent. That is right.

(LAUGHING)

SCHACHER: You are a good lawyer.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: And, so, they always lie in their story to us too. And, our job is kind of figure out what is going on here. And, that is what I am

basing my thinking on.

KAVINOKY: But --

PINSKY: Hang on. Hang on. Erin.

FOSTER: Yes.

PINSKY: You know what I am getting at, right?

FOSTER: We have to look at history. Part of a full assessment is looking at a history and looking at patterns. Now, you guys, say these are

all allegations but what I am seeing are allegations of a pattern of behavior that disregards the rights of others. That is highly concerning

to me.

[21:10:01] COOMBS: Are you thinking about the police officers?

PINSKY: No, no. No, no, no.

FOSTER: I am not. No. No.

COOMBS: Because I think that implies to both.

PINSKY: I am talking -- well, it does. I will grant you that. But, we are talking about news paper articles. We are talking about people

having concerns about these people. This is how -- I understand the legal system has a certain standard it is trying to use to evaluate. We have a

standard, too.

KAVINOKY: Right.

PINSKY: And, we are generally we are pretty right on this stuff. We generally are. Just saying.

KAVINOKY: So, you are implying does not mean -- in the court of law - -

PINSKY: It is not a T.V. show! That is not the standard anyone should be using.

(LAUGHING)

COOMBS: To the law enforcement agency. Are you just looking at the individual? Because you cannot look at in a vacuum. This case is brought

by a law enforcement agency. You have to look at their motivations, the context where they are coming from.

PINSKY: Yes. I agree with you.

KAVINOKY: And, the timing of this whole --

SCHACHER: Right.

KAVINOKY: How old this unfolded on the threshold of that enormous resolution for that civil lawsuit.

COOMBS: A lot of money.

PINSKY: You guys are worrying about the minutia of the function, the judicial system. And, I am so glad you are. We are looking at the

patterns of behavior and trying to understand who this guy likely is.

And, based on the patterns that are being reported across a life span, across a life span! It is very difficult for somebody to have a life span

of really problematic reports about them without there being something there. And, we assess based on that. We got to continue this in a second.

There is more so.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

Next, evidence appears to support his claims of innocence. We will talk about why that might not be the case. We are back after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING AND CHEERING)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AVERY: The evidence do not make no sense. The state ain`t gotta prove nothing. An innocent person always has to prove himself. And, how

do you prove the Sherriff`s department is doing something? I got a hunch that is going to be hard to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:15:08] PINSKY: That was Steven Avery on the Netflix series "Making A Murderer." A lot of people talking about this. Listen to what

the district attorney says about Avery`s claim that he was in fact framed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRATZ (voice-over): They are alleging that because this man filed a lawsuit against the county. These officers, not just a couple of officers,

but several officers had to find a 25-year-old woman, had to kill her, had to mutilate her, had to spread her bones and other evidence around just to

get out of a lawsuit? Not only do I not buy it, but the jury certainly did not buy it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I am back with Sam, Loni, Darren, and Erin. Now, I want to talk about the parts of the case that the viewers are most angry about,

particularly angry with me.

(LAUGHING)

SCHACHER: I cannot wait. I cannot wait.

PINSKY: It is being a good sport. And, the producer came and told us to calm down. So, we will calm ourselves. Teresa -- because this is a

case generates a lot of emotion.

SCHACHER: Yes.

COOMBS: Yes. A lot.

PINSKY: You are laughing at us. All right. All right. This part -- I do not think -- this one looks pretty problematic to me. So, I will have

you guys chew on this.

SCHACHER: OK.

PINSKY: Teresa`s car key was found in plain view on a bookshelf in Avery`s bedroom. It had not been found during multiple previous prior

searches at the home. Then Avery`s DNA was on the key, but it was the only DNA on the key. Teresa`s DNA was on the key.

KAVINOKY: And, found by an officer that was not even supposed to be there.

SCHACHER: And, it was the first time that, that officer who was not even supposed to be there, who had a history, who was also part of that $36

million lawsuit, who the very first time he was unsupervised that time -- doing a sweep around the house unsupervised found the key with the blood

when it is proven that that blood was tampered with.

PINSKY: No, no, no.

SCHACHER: No. It is proven, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Let us talk about that.

SCHACHER: OK. All right.

PINSKY: I will go right to that if you wish.

SCHACHER: OK.

COOMBS: Let us go back to the key for a moment.

PINSKY: OK.

COOMBS: This is not the first time that officer had been in there either. He had been on multiple searches.

PINSKY: Yes.

COOMBS: And, they were never supposed to be in there. They have been told not to be in there at all. So, why were they even trying to be in

there? And, specifically, that officer who had been deposed and who was personally on the line in the civil lawsuit?

SCHACHER: How do you defend that?

PINSKY: I know. I think it is a problem. I think it is a problem.

KAVINOKY: And, when you look at the photographs and where that key was found out there really in plain view, how was that missed by trained

officers for all those other sweeps?

PINSKY: Yes, very weird.

COOMBS: And, where is her DNA? She had these keys apparently for years. Her DNA should have been all over that.

PINSKY: Is that true? I do not know anything about DNA preparation. If you are going to prepare it, you can get leftover DNA? There is no way

they could have cleaned it off or something. He could have clean it off, Avery, anybody?

SCHACHER: With his blood and then left it?

PINSKY: He would paint his own DNA is what you are saying. Good point. All right. Now, you brought up the vile of blood. Well, his blood

was found in a torn package inside -- his blood was found in the car. And, they also found his blood inside a package in an unsealed box leaving some

of you to believe, Sam included, that the blood was planted at the crime scene.

But, yesterday, Jim Clemente in here, an expert, look at how he explained how that blood is handled. First of all, before you go to it.

One of the things, they made a big deal of was that there is a print --

SCHACHER: I am not concerned about the prints.

PINSKY: That is how blood --

SCHACHER: I am not concerned about that part.

PINSKY: Listen. Every time you take a blood sample, you see those --

COOMBS: Right.

SCHACHER: I am not concerned about that.

COOMBS: The seal.

PINSKY: OK. So, the seal.

SCHACHER: I am concerned about the seal being broken and that nobody signed in or signed out to remove that blood sample.

PINSKY: All right. Here is an expert evaluating that. Here you go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERNIE WHITE, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: When they looked at the blood vial, and there was already a little poke in it --

PINSKY: That is how they got the blood in.

KURT SCHLICHTER, ATTORNEY: That is how they got the blood in.

WHITE: That is not how they -- there is always a mark like that whenever you draw somebody`s blood.

(CROSSTALK)

WHITE: I know there is a mark like that, but when it is ripped and everything like that --

PINSKY: No, no, no.

JIM CLEMENTE, FORMER FBI PROFILER: All right. Evidence tape like that is meant to be put on and ripped the first time it is tested. It has

to be ripped. It cannot be taken off. So, that means it was tested and properly ripped. Then instead of putting more evidence tape on, they put

cellophane tape. That is problem with this case. They did not put another piece of evidence tape and sign that and date it. That should have been

done.

WHITE: So, that is the problem.

SCHLICHTER: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: OK. So, it was not that somebody tampered with it or broke the tape. It was that they did not follow procedure and reseal it.

SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh.

COOMBS: And, you do not know if it was because they were being tampered or they were going in there legitimately.

PINSKY: It could have been either.

COOMBS: But, if you are doing it correctly, you always put another -- there is levels of tape on it, for every time they go in and the person

initials it and dates it, so they know every single person that is going in there.

PINSKY: Right. So, it was either tampered or -- it is either incompetence or lying with that, right?

COOMBS: Right. Right. Right.

PINSKY: It could have been incompetence.

COOMBS: You are exactly right.

PINSKY: It could have been incompetence.

COOMBS: Somebody went in there and did not follow the procedure, whether it was being tampered with or otherwise.

PINSKY: Right. So, it is liar or incompetent on that one. So, that has some wiggle room. The prosecutor claims Teresa was killed either on

Avery`s bedroom or in his garage. None of the her DNA, nor blood, nor hair, nor skin or anything was found in the garage nor in the bedroom.

But, it was found inside the car with lots of blood. But the issue of the bedroom, her blood in the bedroom was based on what the nephew reported.

The nephew reported --

[21:20:06] SCHACHER: Well, the police -- right.

PINSKY: Hang on. The nephew reported that he cut her throat in the bedroom and there was no blood anywhere in the bedroom.

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: So, that A. Throws a real question on that kid`s testimony, which we will get into a little bit later or B. Could he have cleaned all

that up, is it possible?

SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, if he cleaned everything up with bleach that would have erased his DNA, too. His DNA, Steven Avery`s DNA was all over

his house. The police claimed that he killed her in his garage but his DNA was everywhere but not one spec of her DNA.

PINSKY: Except on the bullet.

SCHACHER: Which was found five months later, Dr. Drew. Five months later! Geez.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE: Hi, Dr. Drew. Happy New Year, everybody.

PINSKY: Happy New Year. By the way, something I have not had a chance to say to my -- we have been so worked up about this civil case. It

is a pleasure to be back in your hometown. Did you have a happy holiday?

(LAUGHING)

KAVINOKY: Happy New Year.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING AND CHEERING)

PINSKY: We are all worked up about this case, but yes, sir. Please go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE: Hi. My question is -- obviously, no system is perfect. Obviously, everything is flawed. But,

also at the same time as you see, we are dealing with a lot of the tampering issue. There is also -- I do not know if you are familiar with

what happened in Oklahoma City with the cop that raped a series of eight women over a course of this thing.

It makes a trust issue within the system. And, then you also wonder, just looking at this, how much was tampered? How deep did this go? Who

did this guy upset? That it could have even gone beyond that.

PINSKY: And, that is why when people watch this documentary, they present lots of evidence that give motivation for the tampering and for

people to want to manipulate it. And, so, it gets people very worked up. I mean it really --

COOMBS: The context.

PINSKY: Yes. The context we are not presenting here that is presented in the documentary is it gets me a little bit worried, though.

And, this is why I am taking such a strong position is that you are watching a television show.

SCHACHER: But, They cannot show 600 hours in a courtroom. They have to pick and choose the evidence that they are going to use.

PINSKY: But, Sam, their job is to make a show that people get upset and talk about. They have done their job. We are talking about their damn

documentary on T.V. all the time. Their job is not to get at the truth. Their job is to create an entertaining, moving document that makes people

think and makes people upset and makes people want to talk about these very issues. They are not talking whether the truth or the facts of the matter

necessarily.

KAVINOKY: As this gentleman mentions there is a real issue about the integrity of the system.

PINSKY: Well, of course.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

KAVINOKY: And we know -- and we know -- thank you. God, I love that. That is addicting, by the way.

PINSKY: Stop.

KAVINOKY: But, we know that there have been over a thousand exonerations. People who have wrongfully served over 10,000 years in

prison and are provably innocent have been exonerated sometimes from death row.

PINSKY: Yes, the system is not perfect by any means.

KAVINOKY: Yes. And, when we are looking at this evidence, when we are really doing this kind of a detailed analysis, the shame is that this

kind of deep dive is what should be done on every case. And, sadly, what now comes across is a special thing is a special thing is a documentary or

sometimes described as celebrity justice really only speaks to the injustice that happens on a daily basis.

PINSKY: And, the one thing that does sort of ring out in a case like this -- I am not sure how much we are going to get into. We are running

out of time. We are going to get into Brendan pretty good here, Emily, is that true?

Next, we will talk about Brendan, the 16-year-old. There is a lot of manipulation with that kid. And, what you see in that case is -- boy, if

he had the money to create a great defense team, things would have gone differently. That is feature of our justice that keeps ringing out.

KAVINOKY: Yes. Real problem.

PINSKY: Next up, Steven has something in common with Jodi Arias and O.J. Simpson and it does not have anything to do with this crime. Back

after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:27: 26] (BEGIN VIDEO CAPTION)

"In 1984, Steven Avery`s cousin testified that he ran her off the road and pointed a gun at her."

Her testimony also included this...

(END VIDEO CAPTION)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: There was a complaint received September 20, 1984 that says that he has been known to masturbate on the hood of the

car as she is driving past. Do you see that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Did you tell that to the police?

UNDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I did not put it in that many words. He did not masturbate on the hood of my car, but he did come out in front of

my car and he was doing his thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Many of those featured in the Netflix "Making A Murderer" say Steven Avery was a sexual deviant who was also violent, a lifelong pattern.

Back with Sam, Loni, Darren and Erin. And, this is my thing. This is my - - Erin, I am going to go to you. This is the issue that gets us disturbed about this guy.

FOSTER: Yes.

PINSKY: It is very difficult to see lifelong arc of people reporting, repeated. What, are you going to -- you would have to be paranoid to say

people are out to get him.

FOSTER: Right. And, what we are seeing here is also, I think, trauma. And, I have a big question mark about that. Are there some

egregious things that have happened in this? Yes. But, the bigger concern, I think here, is why is not there appropriate mental health

assessment happening?

PINSKY: Well, Erin, it is so funny.

SCHACHER: I agree with that.

PINSKY: You and I -- not only we should agree with that. You and I did not discuss this before the show but yesterday when we cover this

particular story, we were screaming like where is the psychiatric assessment? What is going on here?

And, none of it was in court. None of it was -- The kid we are going to get to in the next block must have had a psychiatric assessment, but

does not go into court, does not come on the documentary. But you have defense attorneys making sweeping conclusions about the psychological and

psychiatric condition of these people. Sam?

SCHACHER: You are also showcasing one family member`s story. And, believe me, I do not want to vilify her or denounce her story. But, this

family also has a history of maiming one another, throwing each other under the bus. They all equally do that to one another.

So, it is hard to decipher who is telling the truth, who is not. And, at the end of the day, I still am not 100 percent convinced that Steven

Avery and Brendan are either guilty or innocent, I am convinced that some shady stuff went on that department and therefore, he should not be in

jail.

[21:30:00] PINSKY: OK. OK. We are getting off topic for this block. Right now, "People" magazine reported the two jurors convicted

Steven Avery the murder related to local county employees. One juror was reportedly a father of Manitowoc -- how do you pronounce Manitowoc --

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: -- Sheriff`s Deputy and other juror, wife worked for the county clerk`s office. There was concerns even about the jury`s pool and

how this guy --

COOMBS: That is not OK. The interesting thing was, they said that the first count was seven for not guilty. Three for guilty. And, then the

rest undecided. But, they said those three that were for guilty were so strong that they were able to bring everybody else in. Now, it makes sense

if you find out that they were related to the sheriff`s department. There is no way --

PINSKY: You do not know if that is the three, though. You do not know if that is the three that were convinced. We do not know. We do not

know.

COOMBS: We will find out. I am sure.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Where is the evidence, Loni? Where is the evidence?

KAVINOKY: And, what I am trying to say is, it is OK for a juror to be related to a member of law enforcement. The problem arises when these

kinds of potential conflicts of interest are not brought out, so that everyone knows.

PINSKY: Right. They may have disclosed. We do not know that they did not disclose. I have to get to break. But, I want to share something

I have learned, which is that Steven Avery`s birthday is July 9th. Now, the interesting thing about that birth date, when we discussed that birth

date before this program, strangely. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Jodi Arias shares a July 9th birthday with two other murder defendants, O.J. Simpson and Amanda Knox.

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So what?

PINSKY: But, O.J. acquitted, later convicted of armed robbery. Amanda accused, I think people are aware of killing her roommate and

exonerated. They are all born in months under the sign of cancer. Now, my producers found a ton of information from surprisingly reputable sources,

they claimed more criminals under the sign of cancer, particularly violent criminals.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: My sister is a cancer. My daughter is a cancer.

PINSKY: Be careful. Be careful, Jenny. You never know.

HUTT: I cannot believe that you are going to buy into this astrological boloney.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: So, everyone, they are all born in July, Jodi Arias, O.J. Simpson. These guys -- Sam, what is the implication? Are they all

murderers?

KAVINOKY: He is an innocent man.

PINSKY: Sam, come on. What have we got in the astrology?

SCHACHER: OK. As far as them all being cancers, all being born on this date, according to describing cancer, their characteristics, they are

considered private and secretive. And, it is those qualities that make them a struggle to understand even to those closest to them. Also, as a

whole, they are described as creative and faithful. But, on the downside, they are also known to be pessimistic, suspicious and suffer dramatic mood

swings.

PINSKY: OK. So, here is --

KAVINOKY: And, rampage and murder.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: So, here is what we have learned. Here is what we have learned. Absolutely nothing. So, next up, we will hear from Steven Avery

in his own words, We are going to get back to this case, we are going to hear what -- he called HLN. He called us. He talked to Nancy with his

side of the story. And, we are going to get into this nephew which is a much, in my opinion, more troubling case. Back after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[21:36:33] GRACE: Steven, I understand that Teresa came to your auto salvage lot to take photos for the auto trader, correct?

AVERY: Yes, she did. She came down by me.

GRACE: OK. And, Steven, it is my understanding that, also, you stated you saw her car leave.

AVERY: Yes, I did.

GRACE: About what time?

AVERY: Between -- she was there between 2:00 and 2:30.

GRACE: Would not she have to pass back by the office again?

AVERY: Well, on the outskirts of the office; otherwise, back by me or back by redound pit in the corner is all open.

GRACE: It is all open?

AVERY: Yes. Anybody could drive in there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: All right. Nancy Grace speaking to Steven Avery when Teresa Halbach then was just still a missing person. She had doubts, Nancy, about

his truthfulness and continues to believe his guilt. Back with Sam, Loni, Darren and Erin. We are going to switch from Steven out to focus on his

17-year-old nephew, Brendan Dassey. Now, we will have much more trouble with this case.

SCHACHER: Heart wrenching.

PINSKY: Every single one of them was a very -- This one -- I am not saying this kid is guilty. I am not saying that. But, I am still

concerned about this kid. He takes the stand. And, prosecutors asked him what he had told his mother and the police. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Told the officers that you were there and Teresa was alive.

BRENDAN DASSEY, STEVEN AVERY`S NEPHEW: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: She was alive?

DASSEY: But, it did not really happen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You made that all up?

DASSEY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You made up the part that you raped her?

DASSEY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You made up the part that she told you not to do it?

DASSEY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: To do the right thing?

DASSEY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And, to tell your uncle not to do it?

DASSEY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You made that up?

DASSEY: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Now, Loni, the circumstance in which he made up that statement was what troubled you, too.

COOMBS: Absolutely. When I was watching the confession tape.

PINSKY: So-called.

COOMBS: Yes. Where the law enforcement officers are interviewing him, I literally almost had to turn off the videos. I was so sick to my

stomach watching them feed information to him. And, he literally -- you could watch his brain -- and, we know he has a low I.Q, try and figure out

what they wanted and how to give it to them. He literally thought he was still going to go back to school. I got a project at 1:30. Will I be able

to go back if I give you what you need?

PINSKY: And, so, Darren, the issue is not the technique they used, which I understand is standard operating procedure.

SCHACHER: Not for someone like him.

PINSKY: Correct, which is the context. This kid did not understand what they wanted, what he was talking about. He expected to be, "OK,

sayonara. I will be back in class now."

KAVINOKY: That he is going to be turning in his class project.

PINSKY: Yes.

KAVINOKY: And, I think this is the thing that is most troubling to me. You know, It is one thing when you just hear somebody describe oh, a

witness gave a statement and then they later recanted. And, it sounds all very sterile.

And, then when you actually watch that footage and you see how slow he is. You can see that he is not understanding it. So obvious that it is

the detectives, who are suggesting and emplacing what it is that he then parrots it back. That is just troubling.

SCHACHER: And, in top of that to manipulate it to where --

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

SCHACHER: They love you, Darren. They love Darren Kavinoky.

KAVINOKY: Mark this date on the calendar.

SCHACHER: But to -- for them to manipulate it to make sure the mother was not present, because she was calling --

[21:40:00] PINSKY: No. No. Apparently -- Supposedly, they gave her a chance to be here, supposedly.

COOMBS: That would have been documented somewhere.

SCHACHER: Thank you. And, also to make sure he was not represented. Not only that, but then for the prosecutor to go out immediately and

broadcast all these salacious details without looking at the videotape or seeing that this is fully --

KAVINOKY: That press conference.

PINSKY: I want to remind people what the press means. He held a press conference and he opened the press conference with, "get the kids out

of the room. I have learned something terrible."

COOMBS: "We are going to tell you horror story."

PINSKY: We are going to tell you a horror story."

KAVINOKY: At the trial --

PINSKY: At the trial, that prosecutor then questioned the 15-year-old cousin, Kayla, cousin of Brendan. At first, she denied having told police

that Brendan talked to her about what he had witnessed.

She said, initially, the he lost weight. He was found sobbing and then he came out with this horrific story. Then they showed her the

statement that she had given, although she denied it on the stand. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAYLA AVERY, BRENDAN DASSEY`S COUSIN: I kind of made up the statement and I am sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: All right. What did you make up? Tell us what you are saying you made up.

KAYLA AVERY: That he seen body parts in there. He did not see it -- he did not tell me anything like that or he did not see Teresa`s body or

anything like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You also told the officers in a separate conversation that day that Brendan had seen Teresa alive in Steven`s

trailer and that she was pinned up in a chair?

KAYLA AVERY: Yes, but that is not true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: All right. So, you are telling us you made something up to get Brendan into trouble?

KAYLA AVERY: Not really. I was just really confused about everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Now, Erin, whether she was telling the truth here or coerced by her family to deny everything, we are worried about trauma. "Oh, my

God, this poor kid has been profoundly traumatized on the stand."

I cannot believe they put a 14-year-old through this. So, there was that. And, then I am going to ask you what you see in Brendan? We see the

very low neurocognitive functioning and we see the flat affect, which a sign of sort of a schizophrenic-like syndrome, would you agree?

FOSTER: I totally agree. What strike to me the most was the incredibly flat affect. And, I cannot emphasize how important this is,

because it is typically indicative of some kind of major psychiatric disorder.

PINSKY: Right.

FOSTER: And, there was no remorse. There was no understanding. There was no emotion. To me, that is incredibly troubling.

PINSKY: We are troubled by that, right? We are not saying that kid is a violent person, but he could be. It is possible. But, then once the

evidence -- were you troubled by the way they evoked the confession, so to speak? This is a very suggestible guy.

FOSTER: This is my soap box. And, I will go back to this again. Where is appropriate mental health?

PINSKY: Yes.

SCHACHER: Right.

FOSTER: Where is the protection for the people who need the mental health?

There was zero evidence besides that confession that wo

(AUDIENCE APLAUDING)

KAVINOKY: No proper assessment.

SCHACHER: It is a nearly zero evidence. I want to say that to people to know, there was zero evidence besides that confession that would place

Brendan to commit the murder.

PINSKY: Yes. Now, after the verdict in Brendan`s trial, the mom -- who was behind the scenes, a lot of footage of the mom talking to Brendan.

At first, she wanted the book thrown at Brendan if he had done this, then she was mad at her brother. And, then it seems like she came to Brendan`s

defense, she lost it a bit afterwards. And, if indeed this was a manipulative situation reasonably so, let us take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARBARA JANDA, BRENDAN DASSEY`S MOM: Get the (EXPLETIVE WORD).

DASSEY: Will you people get the (EXPLETIVE WORD) out of here? Get the (EXPLETIVE WOD). Give the (EXPLETIVE WORD) lady some space.

JANDA: I definitely (EXPLETIVE WORD) need a space. Why do you (EXPLETIVE WORD). I really do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: All right. We are going to leave this case for now. Next up, the affluenza, which drives me crazy. The teen mom -- the affluenza

teen`s mom was in court today. He is still in Mexico. I have new information about those -- both of these two characters. Back after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

[21:45:21] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): The so-called affluenza teen, Ethan Couch, is behind bars in Mexico.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): The teen was only sentenced to probation for a drunk driving crash that killed four people in 2014.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): His lawyer said he suffered from affluenza, essentially being a rich kid with no limit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST OF "AC 360" PROGRAM: Have you ever heard of affluenza as a defense?

PINSKY: No. It is disgusting. It is disgusting. There is no such term.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): The 18-year-old and his mother took off in their truck shortly after this video emerged online,

apparently, showing Couch at a party with alcohol violating the terms of his probation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Affluenza mom so-called was in court today in Los Angeles. Tonya Couch will be sent back to Texas, where she will face charges for

allegedly helping her son flee to Mexico. He is still there in custody. Back with Sam, Loni, Darren, and Erin. Tonya`s attorney says she has

broken no laws. Darren, give me a break.

SCHACHER: What?

(LAUGHING)

KAVINOKY: Well -- hang on a second. I think this may end up being a far more difficult case for the prosecution to prove than at first blush.

PINSKY: What?

KAVINOKY: Under Texas law, they have to show that she knew -- at the time she left the state that she knew she was doing something to help a

fugitive escape justice. And, if you look at the timeline, at least as I understand these statements that at the time that they left, there was no

active warrant for his arrest. He was a fugitive.

PINSKY: He was on probation.

SCHACHER: Yes.

KAVINKY: Well, but being under probation does not necessarily make him a fugitive and it does not necessarily make it impermissible for him to

leave. So, there are a lot more questions than we have answers. We need to seek the exact terms --

PINSKY: All right, Mr. defense attorney. Loni, put on your prosecution hat, please.

(LAUGHING)

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: Because she did not just go to Oklahoma. She went to Mexico.

COOMBS: Right, right, right. I mean if you look at the circumstances, it is very clear that in her mind the reason they were

leaving, the reason why they changed their appearances, why they had a celebration farewell to his friends, why they --

PINSKY: Yes.

KAVINOKY: There were some -- call it submissive guilt, maybe.

COOMBS: Right. Why the way their identifications and essentially snuck across the border is because they were trying to avoid something.

However, there is an issue if they can actually prove, because they have to prove for intent that she did it, that she knew that they were coming after

him at the time.

[21:50:05] PINSKY: She could be in a lot of trouble, though. Ten years.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHACHER: Yes. Ten years maximum.

KAVINOKY: Yes. She will be. How often have we seen that it is not the crime, it is the cover up, because the affluenza teen is looking at it

about --

COOMBS: And, the whole defense has always been blaming it on the parents. Now, we have a way to blame it --

SCHACHER: Well, let us not use the affluenza defense. Let us just call it what it is that she is a crappy parent and he is a spoiled brat.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: Well, that is right. Let me frame it a little bit. I do not disagree with that, Sam. Which is that he is a drug addict, she is an

enabler. And, Erin, I want to show you deposition and tapes obtained by ABC News. Ethan openly talks about the magnitude of his substance use.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ETHAN COUCH, AFFLUENZA TEEN: I am taking Valium, hydrocodone, marijuana, cocaine, Xanax, Diovans. I tried ecstasy once.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: When is the last time you recall disciplining Ethan for anything?

TONYA COUCH, ETHAN COUCH`S MOTHER: I do not remember.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: All right. So, mom -- I do not know this. She looks loaded to me, too. But, Erin -- you know adolescent polysubstance addict, bad

prognosis.

FOSTER: Yes. What I am seeing is a kid who is looking to feel something. OK? The extent at which he is using, my question is, why? Are

you an addict or are you looking to feel something because you have absent parents?

PINSKY: He is doing both. He is an addict. Let me use my addictionology brain, easy for me. He is an addict. According to ABC

News, Ethan and his mom went to a strip club down in Mexico, got drunk there. He visited a VIP room with two strippers, racked up a thousand tab

that they could not pay. Poor boy gave him his Rolex watch as a payment.

SCHACHER: Yes. Yes.

PINSKY: You know, but Erin, it is interesting. I mean, have we ever told your story on this show?

KAVINOKY: I do not --

PINSKY: Do you mind sharing a little bit?

KAVINOKY: No. I mean --

PINSKY: So, you have a heritage with dealing with this condition.

KAVINOKY: I do. I have a history of engaging in my own bad behavior.

PINSKY: Do you see this the way I see it? This is an addict and enabling mom.

KAVINOKY: Well, I do. I definitely do --

PINSKY: Take your attorney hat off.

KAVINOKY: I definitely do see that. But, when you strip away the affluenza label -- Let us remember for context that this is a case that

arose in juvenile court where the focus is about rehabilitation and not simply punishment. And, I think mom`s behavior -- what I would define not

being a mental health professional like you all, but I just call it two scoops of crazy for mom to be running off down there --

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

SCHACHER: Right.

KAVINOKY: But, it further proved the depths of the dysfunction in this family.

PINSKY: Yes. Correct. And, the depths of the denial in the mom. Look at Adam Lanz, what happen with the denial of that mom. And, this kid,

in my opinion, frankly, he does not go to prison -- maybe the only thing that saves his life is to go back to prison.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

COOMBS: Right.

PINSKY: Back after this.

SCHACHER: It is a good point.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: OK. Now, we are talking about so-called affluenza teen. I choke on that name because it just means nothing -- and his mom. She is

not back in the country. He remains in custody in Mexico prison. I cannot imagine being in prison, Mexico is a better alternative to being on

probation in Texas. We are back with Sam, Loni, Darren and Erin. And, Darren, his lawyer is fighting to keep him in Mexico. What, until he turns

is the, is that what the issue here?

KAVINOKY: I guess he is liking the accommodations there.

PINSKY: I can imagine.

KAVINOKY: Because at some point too, the Texas court is going to lose jurisdiction over him as a juvenile.

PINSKY: Crazy.

SCHACHER: But, the thing it is a detention center. It is not like a hard-core jail in Mexico that you are envisioning.

(LAUGHING)

KAVINOKY: Yes. Maybe he is appreciating that being away from mom is the healthier alternative.

PINSKY: And, Erin, that is what I want to get at. You know, separating this guy from mom, we call this loving someone to death. That

is literally what this mom might do. She has no insight into what she is doing here.

FOSTER: Bottom line here is your job as a parent is to provide structure.

PINSKY: And, limits!

FOSTER: Boundaries.

PINSKY: Limits!

FOSTER: Amen. Limits! Consequences. She has not done any of those things.

SCHACHER: The fact that he violated his probation by boozing it up, boozing it up with mom? They also found a gun in their hotel room. Does

any of that play into?

KAVINOKY: Well, you know, it is funny because everybody says there is that video that surfaced of him with booze at the party. All we see is

people holding red cups. So, how are we going to --

SCHACHER: Well, what about all the substances.

KAVINOKY: We have anecdotal evidence about it, but really what is the evidence --

SCHACHER: We should take this to Manitowac, and then maybe they can - -

(LAUGHING)

COOMBS: Yes.

KAVINOKY: But, you know, what is interesting. And, Dr. Erin has brought it up a few times like where is the mental health system in all of

this.

PINSKY: Again.

KAVINOKY: And, this is one --

PINSKY: Well, no. Well, this kid was treated. He was treated in a good place. He failed treatment. He clearly did not participate. And,

the prognosis of a polydrug addicted adolescent who fails treatment. It takes on average. People do not realize this. It takes on average, about

eight treatments to get somebody into recovery, on average.

SCHACHER: Wow.

PINSKY: How many times did you --

KAVINOKY: I do not know. I am -- Five times.

PINSKY: OK. You are above average. Good job, Darren! So, it is not as though there is a straight road or flight to success. But, he

apparently looked like he had sort of abject failure. And, with all this legal stuff weighing on him, it is a terrible sign. And, then a flight and

enabling by mom. It is a bad sign.

SCHACHER: It is the mom.

PINSKY: There are two roads to narcissism. One is, a mom that tells you, you do no wrong and tells you, no matter what you do you are great.

You are wonderful even when you attack and beat other kids, you are great.

Those other kids really are bad or trauma. It is the other way you get to -- the other kids are abused, neglected, sexually, physically,

otherwise. That is another way to get to narcissistic strategy of survival.

KAVINOKY: But, fundamentally, we are talking about a young person here, obviously started off in a juvenile system and I see this over and

over again, where we lock people up for taking an action. But, that is the symptom, it is not the real problem. The real underlying problem is the

thinking. And, because we put people in environments where they are not necessarily getting those mental health services.

PINSKY: Right.

KAVINOKY: It reminds me of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

PINSKY: That is right.

KAVINOKY: You can Feng Shui those deck chairs all you want, but if you do not deal with your iceberg problem, the ship is going down.

PINSKY: That is right. And, Darren, I would argue that it really is not just thinking. It is overall mental health services and treatment.

And, unfortunately, our legal system has become the de facto mental health delivery system. Not just a last resort anymore, it is the system of

mental health delivery. That is who is in our prisons.

Guys, great job. Thank you audience. Thank you all for watching. You can DVR this show and watch us anytime. We are going to do -- On our

Facebook page, we do a little after show. We showed you some of that tonight. Find us on that after show. This same team will be with me

there. We will continue the discussion about Steven Avery. And, we will see you next time.

[22:00:00] (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

END