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CNN NEWSROOM

Lessons from 2009 Air France Crash; Recovering Wreckage Of AirAsia Flight 8501 from Underwater; Answering Viewer Questions on Flight 8501; Upcoming Premiere Of "Life Itself" About The Life And Career Of Roger Ebert

Aired January 1, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Clive, thanks for being here.

When you analyze these two different tragedies, what do you see as the most important similarities?

CLIVE IRVING, "THE DAILY BEAST" & AUTHOR: The first thing is how quickly these things can happen. We must be very careful not to make too much of the fragmented information we have at the moment. There are certain similarities. This thing happened very quickly. We know because of the gap, short gap between when crew asked for permission to climb and when the controllers got back to them, some two minutes or so. By that time, the crew was unable to communicate. In the case of Air France flight 447, which was an Airbus A330, a larger aircraft, it was four and a half minutes when they had that first technical problem and when the plane hit the water. Four and a half minutes would seem like hours to the people involved in it. In real-time, it's a very short time. What we're looking at is the similarity -- the fight deck of the A320 and A330 is very much the same. Their flight decks are the same. If pilots have flown a 320, you can convert to a 330 or the other way around within a few days because it's so familiar to him.

CABRERA: We know weather was a factor in both flights. There were thunderstorms at the time and both of these flights were that in inter-tropical convergence zone. I understand that means something significant too because thunderstorms are somewhat unique in this zone of sorts, is that right?

IRVING: You've got to be remember this is happening in the same zone but in very different seasons. This is happening in the monsoon season in Asia. And in June over the South Atlantic it was not the same weather conditions but what was the same was the nature of these very high thunder heads that form, very rapidly form. In the case of the Air France 447, they were forming at night. In the case of the AirAsia flight, they formed in the morning. Had much of the same effect. The danger lurking within these storms, pilots are very alert to are these extreme down-and-up currents so they can fly through each of those conditions successively and so that causes very violent turbulence. As I said, I think the difference here is that there's a lot of rain involved in this scenario, which there wasn't in the South Atlantic at the time.

CABRERA: OK. We do know that Air France flight, though, had some problems with icing. And, in fact the air speed sensing probes became very clogged. Pilots lost their speed readings. Could that have happened here or was the A320 designed differently than the A330.

IRVING: The speed reading instruments, called pitot tubes, are different or un-impacted. Those on the 330 have been changed. That's not the same.

What we're looking at here, if we can cautiously look at this, there are two categories of accident which have remained stubborn and persistent with all other reasons for accidents that have been successfully dealt with. One is the loss of control, as sort of a euphemism. It implies, for some reason or another, a flight crew, the pilot and co-pilot lost control of the plane. If they lost control of the plane, you have to ask what were the factors involved, how much was a human factor problem. How much was a computer factor problem. These are highly automated flight decks.

CABRERA: On that note, I would think, since the Air France disaster, that pilot preparation and training may have changed in some way. What can you tell us about that aspect?

IRVING: Well, it hasn't changed anything like enough. I was talking to a pilot about it last night about fact that the problem we seem to be facing is what's called a high-speed or low-speed stall. When loss of control occurs, it occurs because the wings lose their grip on the airspace. Now, the simulator training for all airline pilots does not -- at the moment, is not universal, and doesn't include a program for this particular circumstance. When the orientation of the pilot is a critical point in the dark at great height and if the plane starts losing its air speed, and manual flying has to happen very quickly, they were slow at implementing the training program. After Air France 447, the training program was deficient. Before you can train pilots, the trainers themselves have to be trained. There's a whole supply line of skills and it takes time for it get through. It's very scary. People who fly these planes have not expensed in training or actuality a high-speed storm.

CABRERA: Seems like that's a gap in the bigger picture.

IRVING: Yes, it is.

CABRERA: Clive Irving, thank you. We'll talk to you in our next hour, too, looking at what happens with the black boxes, if and when they are found. So we'll talk to you again soon.

Up next, divers reach the wreckage of a World War II plane. And this one is at the bottom of Lake Michigan. We'll go along with them as they take us on the task of bringing to it the surface.

We want to hear you. Send us your questions you still might have about the crash of AirAsia, and use the #8501qs. Our experts are on hand to answer your questions coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Welcome back. Once the weather does clear, crews will be able to go below the surface of the Java Sea to start looking for the wreckage. CNN got some interesting insight what this might look like at a much smaller search. This is from Chicago and a story we brought to you in the spring.

Here is George Howell.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From up here, the waters look vast and the horizon seems endless, but for this team of salvagers and divers --

TARAS LYSSENKO, A&T RECOVERY: Airplanes look like airplanes. So we're looking for an image of an airplane.

HOWELL: In no way is this the proverbial search for a needle in the haystack. Like the search for AirAsia Flight 8501, the crew here knows where to look and, after years of searching charts and records, they find themselves on the verge of a big find.

LYSSENKO: The worst the crash is the more historians like it.

HOWELL: The depth of Lake Michigan not more than several hundred feet. The team uses sonar to find the exact location. And within a matter of minutes --

LYSSENKO: Right there. Boom. Right there. See it. Oh, yeah.

HOWELL: -- they find what they are looking for.

LYSSENKO: Drop the buoy.

HOWELL: Divers drop in. And take us down below. They capture these stunning images of a World War II bomber that crashed into Lake Michigan nearly half a century ago.

LYSSENKO: The engine sank first, right away. The other part floated. The pieces are there but about 100 feet apart.

HOWELL: Back then, the Great Lakes served as a training ground for aircraft careers and pilots. This dive bomber crashed, although the pilot survived.

Salvage expert, Taras Lyssenko, hopes to raise money to raise the plane and put it on display in Chicago.

LYSSENKO: You show one of these things to a 6-year-old, the first time they see it, their eyes light up.

HOWELL: A successful mission finding the submerged plane. But Lyssenko still hopes to recover the wreckage before locating more sitting at the bottom of the Great Lakes. The one thing this team knows for certain, persistence and patience do eventually pay off.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: George Howell is joining me now.

George, good to see you.

How similar was this operation in Lake Michigan to what we're learning in the Java Sea?

HOWELL: Thank you. Happy New Year to you.

You know, what we're seeing here, and in the Java Sea, it's really similar when it comes to the depths. What we saw here in Lake Michigan, a relatively shallow search, we can see these divers go down and swim to see the debris. Very different than what we saw with MH- 370 the search for that plane, much deeper down towards the bottom of the sea. Crews would have to use very special equipment and technology to get down to that. In this case, we're seeing them go down to it and that's a big similarity in the Java Sea.

CABRERA: Your story highlights the challenges in raising a plane. That plane from way back in World War II. What is the status of that search you profiled?

HOWELL: We understand the naval history and heritage command, they decided to temporarily suspend a lot of the raising of these planes that are down at the bottom of Lake Michigan, mainly because of the cost, to recoup and maintain these planes. And to say they have several that have already been raised that represent very well that World War II-era plane here in the Chicago area.

CABRERA: Interesting.

George Howell, thank you.

Up next, is it possible that the flight of 8501 successfully pulled off a water landing but then the storm could have sunk the plane? That's just one question from you and my panel of answers will be back next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: 90 ships and aircraft are now dedicated to finding Flight 8501 and the people on board. As the search progresses, so do your questions about the disaster. You've been sending in your questions using the #8501qs.

Here to help provide answers, CNN aviation analysts, Les Abend and Jeff Wise.

Gentlemen, first question is a real thought-provoking one, I think.

I'll start with you, Les.

Is it possible that the pilot of 8501 successfully executed a water landing and that the storm sank the plane?

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Yes. It's absolute possibility. If there was heavy precipitation, there have been accounts where engines have flamed out, in other words gone totally inoperative and the pilots have been able to start a glide and restart the engines. It doesn't seem likely in this situation that the airplane was done successfully since we don't have survivors, obviously but there are some indications with passengers that the nine or ten passengers that have been found that, that could have. So I wouldn't rule it out.

CABRERA: Just based on some of the clues they have pulled out of the water.

ABEND: What bothers me is that, in that time, if it was a controlled descent situation, there was no May Day call put out or any communication to any aircraft or air traffic control.

CABRERA: That's a good point.

What's your take, Jeff?

JEFF WISE, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: My problem is we have indication they were on secondary radar, they were in the air traffic control system. There was ascent apparently, and then possibly even a descent and then nothing. And if you had a gradual enough glide to the sea surface that you could put it down, like Sully Sullenberger did on the Hudson, you would expect, under these conditions, there to have been secondary radar signals received by air traffic control. You should have watched it do that. Now, were there other confounding factors? Like it you had a double-engine plane, would you lose power and then the --

(CROSSTALK)

WISE: -- and you've got -- and that system might turn off. I don't know.

ABEND: I wouldn't dispute what Jeff is saying, because everything is up in the air at this point in time. But, if they were in a thunderstorm or convective situation with updrafts, downdrafts it wouldn't have been a normal glide.

WISE: Right. Right.

CABRERA: It couldn't physically do that.

WISE: It also wouldn't be boom smack on the deck. It would have taken some time.

This is a mystery anyway. I'm confounded as to why there wasn't more a continuous system of -- there weren't more signals as the plane descended.

ABEND: True.

CABRERA: Let's move on to our next question. This tweet asks, when will the black box be found?

Jeff, we'll start with you on that.

WISE: I'm pretty optimistic. I'm not known as an optimistic person. This is significant. They don't need to keep looking for surface wreckage to locate the black box. To back up, what you do is when a plane goes missing, scan the surface from the air and ship. Then develop your drift model and work backwards to find out where the point of impact is. Then you start listening for ping, pingers attached to the black boxes. Then you send out an ROV or divers and physically retrieve the black box. We don't need to keep looking for wreckage on the surface. As time goes by, that will get more dispersed. The best surface wreckage data we have, we already have. We won't get more. They should start -- I'm sure they already are --

(CROSSTALK)

ABEND: Some of it has drifted into the coastline somewhere.

WISE: Yes, but wherever it is like -- the position location because the currents took it.

CABRERA: Les, let me ask you another question. Did I hear -- I'm quoting, "Did I hear the air traffic controller took a couple of minutes after a request was made by the pilot to then deny the pilot's request?"

ABEND: If that was the case, that's not unusual, because the air traffic control is not talking to just one airplane. You are talking to many airplanes going in opposite directions. So there is that possibility that they got to coordinate a climb situation. So two minutes really is not an unusual amount of time. In the states, it happens all the time.

CABRERA: There's been a lot said there were a lot of other aircraft in this area, flying, crisscrossing at different levels. I guess that comes into play when you say it took a minute or two.

ABEND: If there was not a sense of urgency, which I do not get in that transmission, that would be the case. If there was urgency and the pilot expressed that, then it would seem a little unusual to me.

WISE: They clear the frequency. If you say -- if declare an emergency -- and I've done it myself when I was a private pilot. I had a bit of a burp in my engine and I called air traffic and said, I'm going to reverse direction, and they, like -- they cleared the frequency. I didn't even declare an emergency. Just because I had some an indication I had some trouble.

(CROSSTALK)

ABEND: Yeah. All bets are off when that happens.

CABRERA: OK. So this is our last question. This tweet is asking, assuming that they find the cockpit voice recorder, how long will it take for them to release audio or details of the transcript to the public? ABEND: A long time.

(LAUGHTER)

CABRERA: A long time.

ABEND: Well, you know, it depends on how much information that they want to convey to the public. You know, if this is definitive information they know, the news media would like something and they will attempt to release it a little bit at a time. The first thing is to have to have respect for the families. And that's the bottom line.

CABRERA: Les Abend and Jeff Wise, thanks to both of you, as always.

Switching gears, Roger Ebert one of America's most famous movie critics, his life, his final months all profiled in a new CNN film. That's next.

And I'll talk to someone who knew him will. We'll discuss his relationship with Gene Siskel and how he would rate this movie about his life. Don't miss this interview. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Legendary film critics, Roger Ebert and Gene Siskel, had a complicated relationship on-screen and off-screen. For decades, Siskel and Ebert clashes were televised weekly as they argued over movies, Hollywood directors, and trashed each other's reviews.

You can find more in the debut on "Life Itself," on Sunday at 9:00 P.M. Eastern on CNN, where you'll hear from former producers as they describe how Siskel and Ebert's bond evolved.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Roger is an only child. He was used to gets his way. Absolutely. And he could be a real big baby when he didn't get what he wanted. Gene, on the other hand would just go in there and pummel you until you agreed with him until you said all right, Gene, OK, you're right. Got it.

MARLENE IGLITZEN, WIDOW OF GENE SISKEL: It wasn't a game with him. He saw something he wanted it to happen. He made it happen.

DONNA LA PIETRA, FORMER EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: Gene was very good at reading Roger's date book upside down. As soon as he saw L.A. and the date, he knew what films were coming out, he knew what big star that Roger would be going out to interview, and that's all it took for him to make sure that he got the interview before Roger got it. Fumes you could see coming out of Roger's head. Gene had done him in again, that rascally rabbit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER) CABRERA: Joining me now, Josh Golden, the managing director of

Ebert Digital.

And, Josh, how might Roger he berth do you think have rated this documentary, "Life Itself." Thumbs up, thumbs down?

JOSH GOLDEN, CHIEF TECHNOLOGY OFFICER, EBERT DIGITAL: I think he would give it thumbs up. Roger got to be more of a softie in his reviews as he moved through his career and he would have found no problems giving his own movie thumbs up because it's a fantastic movie and an amazing job by Steve James and the rest of the people who made it.

CABRERA: Does it leave anything important out?

GOLDEN: It was an incredibly deep and revealing -- I was around for some of the moments of crisis and intense uncertainty towards the end of Roger's life and I was amazed at how candid the movie actually was made and it really provides an incredible deep behind-the-scenes view of their dynamic and the life and times of such a great guy.

CABRERA: Did Ebert ever worry that film reviews some day might become outdated or do you think his openness on social media was an example of kind of keeping the profession progressing?

GOLDEN: Yes. Roger was absolutely committed to making sure that didn't happen. He was an incredibly adopter of new technology of getting on CompuServe back on the day when nobody was doing news on the interview. He wanted to make sure cinema review stayed relevant. Roger helped bring top tier movie criticism to the every day person and beyond that he wanted to make sure as technology changed, as, you know, social media gave everybody a voice to speak their minds about things that the professional critics found their place within that universe and change so fast I'm still not sure the question has been definitively answered. But Roger was right there trying to help the next Generation.

CABRERA: Hollywood film critics did not exactly embrace Siskel and Ebert, at first, at least. I want to you listen to this and then we'll talk on the back side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The success of the show was undeniable, except we were not on in two major markets, New York and Los Angeles.

GENE SISKEL, FORMER FILM CRITIC: Here I am at the little popcorn shop a half a block from the screening room where I see the movies.

ROGER EBERT, FORMER FILM CRITIC: This is the Chicago Theater of State Street --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Their position was, if there's a movie shown, it's not going be two guys from Chicago. We're going to have New York critics or we're Hollywood. A.O. SCOTT, FILM CRITIC: Who are these guys? It's not the kind

of the wised-up players who might be in Los Angeles. What do these people have to tell us about movies?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: So, Josh, as you already mentioned Ebert did embrace technology and it let everyone in on the review process. He used the internet which was not very commonplace in that time. D you think that's in part because he just wasn't part of Hollywood's inner circle?

GOLDEN: I think his view on the matter was he's providing a service to his readers. He used to say that all the time. So as people's preferences shifted he wanted to meet people where they wanted to be talking and wanted to talk to them what they wanted to talk about. If you go back to his blog, it was incredible to see him respond in real-time and spurring conversation. Some people viciously disagreeing with his opinions about film or politics or other things like that and he would be right there in the fray and giving everybody the time of day and letting each argument, no matter who formulates it, become its own thing.

CABRERA: This is a man who saw so many movies and you knew him later in life. Did he ever talk about his favorites?

GOLDEN: You know, he certainly formalized one of his favorite movie collections, which we made on a centerpiece on the website we built together. I think everybody knew that Roger Ebert was a huge fan of "Citizen Kane." And some of the more obscure stuff that showed up. And movies from recent years. I remember him being a huge fan of "Tree of Life" and wrote a very revealing blog post about that film.

But, he and I talked a lot more about technology than we did about movies because he was a big Internet nerd and, you know, I could help in more in his passion in that sense.

CABRERA: And now you can watch movies on the Internet.

GOLDEN: Yeah.

CABRERA: Josh Golden, thanks so much for your time.

And you can catch the acclaimed --