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CNN TONIGHT

The Crash of Flight 8501; What the Debris Field Tells Investigators; Anguish of the Families of Flight 8501; Indonesia Has Found Location Of Plane

Aired December 30, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: And there's breaking news tonight on two big stories. On opposite sides of the world. You're looking live now at Surabaya, Indonesia's Juana International Airport. Moments away, ambulances are on standby to ferry bodies recovered from the wreckage of AirAsia Flight 8501. Six bodies from the flight have been recovered so far including one flight attendant, according to Indonesia's search-and-rescue chief.

We have the very latest as the tragic search goes on tonight. Some 60 miles from the plane's last known location over the Java Sea.

We're also live in New York's Times Square where tomorrow night, the world will be watching the New Year's Eve Ball drop. And the NYPD is stepping up security.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I am Don Lemon. Thanks for joining us.

But how will police keep Times Square safe when they are so at odds with the mayor they are literally turning their backs on him?

We've got a lot to get to tonight. But I'm going to begin with the very latest on the crash of Flight 8501. I want to begin with reporters in the region now. Gary Tuchman is in Surabaya, Will Ripley is in Beijing.

I'm going to start with you, Gary.

Gary, the very latest on the grim search-and-recovery right now.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, the search is horrifying, it's very said, but officials say they have what they need to continue it right now. There are about 30 planes and 40 ships on the Java Sea right now looking for the bodies of passengers. As you just mentioned, at least six bodies have been recovered including a flight attendant. They know that because she was wearing her flight attendant uniform.

The problem right now, though, is you have very bad weather conditions. It's very cloudy. It's very foggy. I actually just got off a plane. I flew here from Bali, another Indonesian island. And it was very hard to see. It was very windy. There is a lot of turbulence. And you see what they're dealing with on the sea. So what's very important to know is this water is not more than 100

feet deep. It's very shallow. So after covering lots of plane crashes over the years, nothing is never easy. But this is one of the more stable situations in the sense they know where the plane is and the water is not very deep.

LEMON: Yes. But still, as you said, the weather will definitely impact the search efforts.

But, Gary, the question is, some of the families of the passengers and the crew saw bodies being pulled out of the ocean on live television. How did that happen?

TUCHMAN: Yes. What happened was -- and this can happen. It's no one's fault. But local TV here in Indonesia was showing the search and rescue live. And it just so happened the camera moved in and it was a body there and indeed, this is the area they are -- the families are, right behind me in that doors, that's where they're waiting right now. And we've seen this a lot of the years, too. TWA Flight 800 in the 1990s. At a hotel the families were gathered.

And it's always such a sad and traumatic place to be. But they were in there watching on TV. And a couple of women fainted when they saw that because they knew that the hope that their loved ones were alive was likely over when they saw lifeless bodies being pulled out of the water.

It's just so sad. And ultimately, Don, with these families, we're being told that as early as today, maybe tomorrow, the families are going to be moved out of here, and taken to a nearby hospital where the bodies will be brought when they're recovered from the scene.

LEMON: That was my next question. So they're being held here. But they're getting information from where the bodies are being recovered.

How -- explain to us the flow of information. How does if it happen? They go out. The rescuers, the searchers go out, they come back and get information. And then how does this -- how does this happen?

TUCHMAN: Don, if you asked me a question, a little hard for me to hear. Can you just repeat that again? Your voice is coming in and out.

LEMON: So where you are now, the families are there. The searchers go out and they get information and they get bodies, and what have you. So how does the flow of information happen? How does the family -- how do the families get information where you are?

TUCHMAN: Yes. So what's happening is officials go into the family room and give them updates whenever the family members want it. And the question that I just asked the airport manager a short time ago is what is the main thing you're hearing from the family members right now. And they said, the main thing we're hearing over and over again is bring me back the body of my loved one.

And I said, do any of them still hold out any hope that perhaps they got a life preserver and floated away and they're alive, and he told me, they don't think that. They just want to see the bodies of their loved ones.

LEMON: Yes. Understandable.

Gary Tuchman, stand by.

I want to get to Will Ripley now.

Will, the USS Sampson has arrived to the search area and the Pentagon says another is being prepared. What's the latest that you're hearing from there where you are in Beijing?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the U.S. joining this multinational effort now to recover the people who were on board that plane and continue the search also for the debris and whatnot. The Chinese Navy and Air Force has committed resources.

But I wanted to touch on something that you brought up earlier, Don. It's just -- there is a huge level of interest in the story around Asia. This is front-page news on all of the papers. And it's also been covered extensively not only on CNN but a lot of the other regional networks. And one of the regional networks that broadcasts all over Asia, including here in China, Malaysia, Australia, Japan, the Philippines, they were simulcasting that live signal from local TV in Indonesia.

So potentially those graphic live images of bodies went out to a number of different countries, potentially millions of viewers, and certainly here in China where there are a lot of MH-370 families following this closely, Don. Very upsetting to see that kind of thing.

LEMON: You have been speaking with members of the MH-370 families there. What are they telling you?

RIPLEY: Well, it's a very difficult time. This whole week has been traumatic for them in many ways. It almost brought them back, Don, to the day when Flight 370 disappeared. I was sitting down yesterday with Steven Whang, whose mother was on the plane. And he was telling me that he was hoping for a miracle.

He was hoping that perhaps some people in the AirAsia Flight might be alive because almost 10 months later, Don, he still believes that his mother may be alive. He hasn't been able to speak her name because he says she is not a victim. I can't accept that she is a victim until I have proof.

And it was during our interview, Don, that we learned that the bodies were being recovered from the AirAsia crash. Yet that son that I spoke with and so many others in this part of the world still don't have any answers about Flight 370.

LEMON: Gary Tuchman, Will Ripley, thank you very much.

I want to bring in now Erik van Sebille, he's an oceanographer at the University of North Wales in Sydney, and also David Soucie, CNN safety analyst and the author of "Malaysia Airlines Flight 370."

The reason I asked Gary that question about the flow of information because those families saw that on television. And I'm wondering if there is a difference now since that happened getting information to them.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Well, I think --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: They've got to be careful.

SOUCIE: They do. And he pointed out real well that there wasn't an intent with what happened here. There wasn't some kind of media monger that was trying to get this on air. It was just -- it happens in an accident scene. It's almost impossible to film an accident scene without having something like that.

LEMON: Yes. You have to have sensitivity when it comes to this.

Eric, you're an oceanographer. So tell us about this area of the Java Sea and the water conditions there.

ERIK VAN SEBILLE, OCEANOGRAPHER, UNIVERSITY OF NORTH WALES: Yes. So the Java Sea where the search is now going on is very shallow. It's shallower than most of the great lakes actually. It's not really an ocean, it's an inland sea, and for instance, 20,000 years ago during the last Ice Age, this was forest. It's really different environment from where, for instance, the search of MH-370 has been. It's also very different from where the Air France in the Atlantic Ocean went down.

But the problem that the search team is now facing is the monsoon season. It really -- this plane couldn't have gone down in a worse time of year almost. There is really big winds. There is choppy waves. These shallow seas are notorious for just complicated waves and their very steep crest. It's really hard to work in.

The other thing is that the rain brings down all this sediment. And sediment floods into the ocean. And makes it very murky, very muddy, and hard to see -- it's not very clear water anymore. And then it makes it much more difficult to, of course, work in this kind of water.

LEMON: Yes. And Erik, you know, it is -- it isn't exactly a remote area. There's heavy shipping traffic that happens there. Fishing. Many people live nearby. Live nearby on the coast. What impact, if any, will this have on the search and the scatter of this debris?

VAN SEBILLE: Yes, well, probably the biggest impact of it is that we will see a lot of debris being pulled out of the ocean that turns out not to be of the plane because this is a filthy part of the ocean. Like many other of these enclosed -- the seas where there's not really a current flushing things out. Plastic, fishing nets. All of the other things that are manmade and that go into this ocean, they linger around for months to years. And I think what we will see is that there is so much rubbish going to

be collected out of the ocean. And more often not than yes, it will be from the plane.

LEMON: So, David, let's see. The number of victims has grown to six now. The latest three victims retrieved from the sea are two men, one female flight attendant. Yesterday three bodies, two adults, two adult females. And one of them a teen boy had been recovered. So the question everybody's mind is how -- the victims, from what will we learn from the victims? Will we learn about what possible impact the plane had once it hit the ocean.

SOUCIE: Right. One of the questions that I constantly get, always get, is were the victims aware of what was going on. If something happened in the air, were they aware of what happened. If they were conscious, if they were not conscious. We talked about that in MH-370 a lot.

LEMON: You can tell from that whether they were conscious when they hit the water?

SOUCIE: Yes. And so what I want to warn people is that there are people, there are family members who want to know this information. And there's those that don't. So what I'd like to do is just talk about what we do to determine whether they were conscious or not and whether they knew what was happening. So on the accident scene, when the bodies are retrieved, one of the first things we do is check for seawater in the lungs.

And so when we do that, it'll give us a lot of clues. If there's seawater in the lungs what that means is that they may have ingested that water after they hit the water. So that would tell us that they were conscious as it went down.

LEMON: A hundred and sixty passengers on board. Only six found now. Does that say anything?

SOUCIE: It does say a lot to me because -- it's significant enough to know that there was some kind of impact at that point, whether it was broken off in the air or whether it hit the ground. Because they're not finding more quickly then what that tells me is that there was a large part of that aircraft that went down and took the debris with it. It's not typical to see it this way. It's typical to see a lot of debris. We're not seeing that.

LEMON: All right. Stand by, gentlemen. We've got a lot more ahead on the crash of Flight 8501.

Coming up, searchers recover pieces of the plane. Will the wreckage tell us what happened exactly and why?

Also the NYPD steps up security in Times Square ahead of New Year's Eve and under the threat of more protests over police tactics. Will it be a happy and safe new year?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: It's already mid-morning Wednesday in the Java Sea. The search is under way for victims and wreckage from Flight 8501. Rescuers have recovered at least six of the 162 people on board. And debris recovered so far may offer clues as to what brought the jet down.

My experts are here with me now. Mary Schiavo is a former inspector general for the Department of Transportation, she's now an attorney for victims of transportation accidents. Mike Boyd is an aviation consultant who's president of the Boyd Group and Karlene Pettit is an A330 pilot and the author of "Flight for Safety." David Soucie is a -- he's back with us here as well.

Mary, to you first. The first of the debris was spotted 60 miles from the plane's last known location. What does this distance tell us?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, it tells us that the plane did travel some after the last communication, the last radar hit. But not very far. It's pretty well contained. So whatever happened, whether it was an aerodynamic stall or some kind of mechanical issue it was pretty quick, and it happened rather quickly after the last radar contact and the last communication.

There would be some drift in those days on the ocean but probably not quite that much. So it's pretty well contained in a very sudden event.

LEMON: I mean, David Soucie, you wrote the book on how planes crash. What key pieces of wreckage do rescuers look at or need to find to know exactly what really happened?

SOUCIE: Well, it changes throughout the investigation. Right now to look at it this way, the bodies really are the key piece of investigative material to gather information about it. So as these bodies are retracted where they are and how the condition that they're in is going to give a lot of clues. And that is the first thing you deal with. The next thing down, of course, you're going to look for the black boxes. And document where everything is so that you know where the flow is.

LEMON: The first bodies and then wreckage, meaning the black boxes --

SOUCIE: Document the rest. Exactly.

LEMON: Carlene, you're a pilot. And from everything we know about the debris, are there any clues as to whether this plane broke up midflight or it stalled or what might have happened to this plane?

KARLENE PETITT, INTERNATIONAL AIRLINE PILOT: I think that the plane stalled. You know, they flew into a thunderstorm. And these airplanes are not designed to fly in thunderstorms. If you think about -- you know, we all do stall training. If you think about the 1500, 2,000, 3,000 per minute updrafts, winds at those altitudes could be 150 knots. You know, and their max service ceiling is 39,000 feet. They were 38,000 feet, just 40 minutes into the flight. So the flight would have been -- the aircraft would have been heavy.

And there's not a lot of merging up there, maybe 10 to 15 knots. So even the smallest turn could have caused them a problem. So you know the problem was getting into that thunderstorm.

LEMON: And you're an --

PETITT: Avoidance was really the only answer to save that.

LEMON: You're an A330 pilot, which is just a bigger version of the A320 of the plane that went down, correct?

PETITT: Correct. More or less, yes.

LEMON: Yes. All right.

So, you know, Mary, we've been talking about the black boxes. You heard David Soucie mentioned them just a moment ago. Where are the black boxes in particular to this type of plane? And what information will be learned from these boxes?

SCHIAVO: Well, they're in the tail. And if the plane is pretty much largely intact, as David mentions, the few number of bodies suggest that the fuselage might be still intact. The divers can go down and actually get them. They will continue to retrieve the bodies but they'd be in the tail. And in a plane this new, a 6-year-old plane, what's good about the black box is that it will have lots of parameters. And the parameter on a black box is just a piece of data.

If there is something on the plane that you can have a lead from, a wire or electrical lead, and you can collect that information in the flight data recorder, you will have it. You will have everything from airspeed, the position of every flight control surface. You know, airspeed. Attitude of the plane. Nose up. Nose down. Just literally every control surface on there. And then the cockpit voice recordings.

There's a mike at each pilot station, the pilot and the co-pilot. And that picks up not only the sounds of the voices but other sounds, clicks, sounds of things in the cockpit, you know, going wrong. Thud. Hail. You can hear that on the windshield. Many times we've had to hire acoustic experts to tell us just the meaning of every click and sound in the cockpit. So it's a wealth of information. Very, very important.

LEMON: Mike, you say that this debris is indicating a textbook crash. Yet the FAA issued an air worthiness directive warning pilots about a certain part of the A320. What does that mean?

MICHAEL BOYD, AVIATION CONSULTANT: I understand there was an air worthiness directive regarding something to do with the pitot tube. If it was something that was absolutely major and life threatening it would be more than just an air worthiness directive. So -- look, there were about 3900 of these airplanes that had been built, 3500 that were flying. And another 3200 that are in order. So I think in terms of the integrity of this as an airplane that's been proven. The real issue is what was specific to this airplane and this flight.

LEMON: Pitot tube, is that the -- indicates speed? Is that the --

SOUCIE: Yes. The air comes in and it tells what the pressure of the air is and the velocity of the air.

LEMON: So what might have been the issue with it? With the pitot tube.

SOUCIE: Actually Mike brought up a good point about air worthiness directives. But I believe what he's referring to there is the angle of the TAC indicator air worthiness directive, which was issued last month on the aircraft. The research, though, this is number 216, it's 320-216. 216 it did not apply to. It was only 214 and 217.

LEMON: OK. So, Mike, when we get on a plane, you know, we hear about the flotation devices and all of those things. Is that -- does that provide -- is that really a false sense of security because we've had so many -- well, the air crashes that we've had, have had so many people on them. We haven't had more this year. Just more people have died. But do those provide passengers really with a false sense of security?

BOYD: Well, I don't know if there's a false sense of security. When you get in a big metal tube, no matter what it is, you're levitating yourself. And I don't know of an incident where we've had an airplane of any size like this, where everyone has been in their jackets and gotten off the airplane and inflated their jackets after they got off. I don't know. It's something that is a necessary thing.

But in terms of this being something where people will be very calm about it and think, it's just a big swim in the ocean. No, it's a very serious thing. But it's one of those issues where it's incremental. And when an airplane hits the ground at 250 knots, I don't care what you are wearing you are not going to get out of it alive.

LEMON: All right. Stay with me, everybody. Lots more to get to tonight.

The loss of Flight 8501 is having an emotional impact on the families who lost loved ones in another plane, Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. They still don't know what happened to that jet. We're going to speak to the husband of a passenger. And also the difficult next steps, the AirAsia families must face now that the bodies are being recovered.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The head of AirAsia says his heart is filled with sadness for the families. But he hopes that they can now find some closure at least. As we all know the families of those on board another plane, Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, still don't know what happened to their loved ones nearly 10 months after that jet disappeared.

Chandrika Sharma was on Flight 370. Her husband, K.S. Narendran, joins me now via Skype from India. Thank you, Naren. How are you?

K.S. NARENDRAN, HUSBAND OF MH-370 PASSENGER: I'm all right. Thank you for having me this morning. It's morning here in India.

LEMON: Yes. You know we haven't spoken to you in some months. And I'm wondering when you heard about 8501, what was your reaction?

NARENDRAN: I was -- I was in shock. I was surprised. And it brought back the whole experience of the last eight, nine months in a flash. And just left wondering how much time did this -- is this one going to take until we find out what really happened. And like the first time, I understand I was watching television almost nonstop. Just keeping track. Hoping that this is going to come to a swift end. One way or another. Any which way it was a tragedy.

LEMON: You know, how do you think AirAsia is handling this in comparison to Malaysian Airlines?

NARENDRAN: On the face of it, it seems that -- they're better organized. I think they are perhaps lucky that they had a better idea of exactly where they lost it. And it wasn't surrounded subsequently by any intrigue. There was almost reasonable clarity. And I think they managed their communication process quite well. I'm a little surprised that it still took three days to locate the plane and the passengers. (INAUDIBLE) managed the situation than what (INAUDIBLE) in 2014.

LEMON: Yes. I understand you went to your wife's family? For Christmas. How are they doing?

NARENDRAN: Well, I have been there a little before Christmas. Actually just early December. They're doing all right and they said -- everybody (INAUDIBLE) accepting things the way they are including the fact that they don't have answers yet. We still don't know a thing beyond what the (INAUDIBLE). So I think it's just good to stay in touch, meet face to face, whenever possible. And to know that life must go on.

LEMON: Naren, thank you. We appreciate you coming on.

NARENDRAN: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you.

I want to bring back Mary Schiavo, an attorney for victims of transportation accidents.

Mary, do you think the families of Flight MH-370 will learn more in 2015?

SCHIAVO: Well, I certainly hope so. And that's everyone's hope. It's very difficult without additional information. And of course the airline has pretty much all but stopped giving them information. Helping them do anything at all. So unless and until they resume the search and find more information and find the plane. They feel stymied, they feel that they just -- have just, you know, their help and their information has ended.

LEMON: Listen, it's anguish really for the families of Flight 8501 today. I want you to take a listen to one heartbroken mother.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA ENDING WIRASMI, MOTHER OF FLIGHT 8501 PASSENGER (Through Translator): When they explained that not only did they find debris but also found bodies floating in the water, everyone became hysterical. Especially the mothers. One mother even blacked out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Sadly some of the families were watching tell television when the bodies were first shown. Earlier, you know, David Soucie said it wasn't anyone's fault. But they've got to be really careful, though, about sensitivity during the search?

SCHIAVO: Well, they do. And of course those were not the searchers that were showing that. And the families I don't think -- I think what people realize is they hang on every word from the news. I mean, what you're reporting, what you're telling them is so very important. Particularly depending on what country they are in. And for example for 370, some people had no source of information other than the news. And they really hung on it.

At some points in one country in particular, CNN was actually blacked out. And it's very important for them to get the news. While it's terribly tragic that they did it families really want information. And they scarcely look away from the news because that's where they're getting it. And the truth and the facts and the information every morsel is what they want. So it was unfortunate, but that's not going to stop them from trying to seek every piece of fact that they can have.

LEMON: Yes. The CEO of AirAsia spoke about closure today. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY FERNANDES, CEO, AIRASIA: The only slight benefit is that for the people, there is some closure. This is a scar with me for the rest of my life. It doesn't change anything, very little percent. There is at least some closure. Not knowing what happened and holding out hope.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That was AirAsia's CEO Tony Fernandes. Mary, we know six bodies have been recovered so far. It's really important as we discussed in MH-370. These families want to receive the remains of their loved ones. It is really important to them.

SCHIAVO: It is. You know, there is a bit of a misconception though about closure. I am sure the CEO must have meant well. There is no such thing for family. Families have told me many times that is a word that they actually don't like.

They've never get closure. What they learn to do over time and it takes a long time, but what they learn to do is learn -- they live with the difference. All of a sudden they are not the family they were.

Now they are a family that lost loved ones in an air crash and that's an identity that stays with them for life. They say they never come to closure. They just learn to live with their new life.

So, I never use that word but, that being put that aside for a moment, having their loved ones back, anything. I have families that have, have gotten nothing more than a very small fragment of a bone or even a handbag that might have been found later.

Those things become so very, very valuable because it's connection with their loved one in their last moments on this earth.

LEMON: I don't know if they're thinking about this now, but do they have any legal recourse?

SCHIAVO: They have legal recourse, but I have to say, terrible for a lawyer to say this. Aviation law internationally, the world is a body of aviation law. It is very antiquated because the aviation laws are based on your country's law and various handful of country's law in any crash.

You can apply the law where you bought the ticket, where you are going, where you are from. The law around the globe is a patchwork. Some countries have still clings to an old treaty called the Warsaw Treaty. It's decades old. It provides very little rights and little compensation.

Others have signed the Montreal Accords. Passengers seated side by side. You know, they were identical in all aspects of their life, but one was from one country and one from another. One might have a full plate full of rights and compensation.

The other might have almost nothing. Aviation by definition and by intention doesn't respect national boundaries. And yet people are forced into these artificial categories of whose law applies. We really need to develop a more international basis for recompense for families of air crashes.

LEMON: All right, Mary, stay with me. Up next, learning from disaster, can investigators find clues that will help us prevent another air disaster.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Wreckage from AirAsia Flight 8501 is being recovered, but the investigation far from over. In fact, it has just begun, so back with me now, Mary Schiavo, Mike Boyd, Karlene Petitt, and David Soucie. Once all the wreckage is found and recovered, David, what's next? How do we get answers here? SOUCIE: Once it comes back inside, the accident investigator in charge is the person who controls everything as far as what goes in, what goes out, the briefings. Everything is controlled through that investigator in charge.

And so that's where the information goes to. That's where the parts are going to. They're all controlled. There is a chain of custody that has to be maintained. So there is no difference in that.

So that when Mary wants to defend her clients, she needs to have chain of custody to know that part from here to here to here. So that's, a lot of part, a lot of the investigation is just documentation.

LEMON: Yes, not sure. I wanted to ask you this and I don't remember if I got to it. But Mary, where -- where do the black boxes go, Mary, once they are recovered?

SCHIAVO: Well, the nation that is responsible for the investigation will decide who is going to open them and download the information. In this case, I would assume since it is an airbus, that the French BEA might be the agency that is tasked with doing that.

But what is surprising is once they do it, it is pretty quick. Cockpit voice recording is literally a recording and flight data recorder while has hundreds of parameters looks like a series of EKGs. It prints out on long sheets and then you decipher it.

But my guess is probably the French or the Australians will do it. But certainly, the NTSB would. They do it for lots of countries.

LEMON: Carlene, as I understand from reading the research. You want to talk about weather here. You think that it was weather-related and do you think there should be increased weather training?

PETITT: Yes, you know -- certainly was weather based. Difference between this flight and -- Air France 447 is that those pilots were in the dark. They had the radar turned down. They didn't see the storm. These pilots saw the storm.

The airline knew the storm was there. They -- that's why they moved the flight two hours ahead of schedule. We need to look at fatigue. What time were the pilots looking to take this flight? They had to be up at 3:00 in the morning. The captain just buried his brother two days before.

So there are a lot of factors going into it. They saw the storm build and while this was a very experienced crew. Sometimes experience can get in the way because you have seen it. They fly, like, fly through the storms all the time. They get away with it. They go around them. They get away with it.

This one was fast. It was quick. No storm is the same. This time it got them. I think probably what we need to really encourage, and I know -- my airline encourages this, many U.S. carriers, I'm not sure of the culture. But the ability to say this doesn't look good. I am getting out of here. I am turning back and the turn back is what would have saved the flight. Once you got into the storm, there, I don't know of any, if any pilot could have gotten out of it in any aircraft.

LEMON: Yes, I want to get Mike in here. David, quickly --

SOUCIE: Well, what I was going to ask is pilot push. Pilot push is a term that we use to say, why is the -- why are they not turning back? And, there is pressures that unspoken. They're not written, but the pilot wants to complete the mission. This pilot push comes from all kind of directions. But it forces the pilot to do things subconsciously.

LEMON: I'm just wondering how often pilots are there because we talked about the autopilot and she mentioned the training. How often are you thinking anything can happen at any moment, are you -- is there a sort of a sense of security that, you know, this is not going to happen --

SOUCIE: Do you study martial arts at all?

LEMON: I did when I was younger.

SOUCIE: Well, in that, it's about the relaxed muscle. You're faster and you're more reactive when you're going from a relaxed state to a hard. But if you are tense all the time then that happens. And same thing in the cockpit, if you are tense the whole time, you are not ready for the unexpected.

LEMON: Mike, let's talk about the Asia Air and the budget, these budget airlines. Up until now, this accident had -- you know, this -- this airline had a stellar record.

Some are calling into question whether -- whether the lower prices of the airlines played into this. What can you tell us about the safety standard of these growing airlines?

BOYD: Every airline is different. Let's talk AirAsia, the system per se. If you take a look at just the way this has been handled in terms of how this, never had a crash before. But you take a look at how they've handled this. It's been very smooth, direct, no gaps, no vacuums of information.

Mr. Fernandes is there literally. That would indicate a very well managed airline. You get these people saying, they're budget. They must be cutting corners. I don't buy that. There is no indication of that and usually that is a big catch all for well.

They don't charge enough. So they are obviously not changing parts. They are not doing maintenance. There is no indication whatsoever with this airline and that's what we're talking about.

Elsewhere in the world, maybe, but this one, everything we've seen with this airline and the way Tony Fernandes does business would indicate you are dealing with a professionally run organization. LEMON: Let's talk about the way Tony Fernandes has responded. Here is what he tweeted. He said, "My heart is filled with sadness for all the families involved in QZ8501, on behalf of AirAsia my condolences."

So on top of his nonstop tweeting, the company's logo and the website change from bright red to gray, how do you think AirAsia has handled this disaster from a crisis communications perspective? Were they prepared?

BOYD: Very well. There are no holes. There were a lot of holes -- I mean, Malaysia 370 was nothing more than keystone kops. That was awful from the get-go that was awful and even afterwards. Malaysian looked like a pack of amateurs.

This looks like a pack of professionals who have concern about the feelings of the people who were involved including the employees. So I think what they have done is right. It shows a very professionally well thought out airline. I don't -- I don't see a problem with AirAsia here except for the crash itself.

LEMON: Can you give us 5 second, please?

BOYD: There was a great point about not being able to, not being able to follow up on -- no, I can't do it in 5 second.

LEMON: What's your point?

BOYD: That's all right. We're good. Keep it on schedule.

LEMON: Thank you very much. I appreciate it, Karlene Petitt, Mike Boyd, Mary Schiavo and David Soucie. When we come right back, a million people will flock to the crossroads of the world. Times Square to see the ball drop on New Year's Eve, but this year, the NYPD faces an extra security challenge. More on that next.

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LEMON: Welcome back. Breaking news to report to you on Flight 8501, this is what "The Wall Street Journal" is reporting that Indonesia now has a sonar image of an object on the ocean floor that they believe might be, I repeat that, might be the body of the Flight 8501 -- of that plane.

No word on when that object may be recovered. I want to bring back in David Soucie. So David, what it says, this update, Indonesia SAR, search and recovery agency says, sonar image appears to show aircraft upside down on the ocean floor. Now CNN is just confirming that, hearing from producers. What does that tell you?

SOUCIE: It's significant in that it appears to say that the aircraft is intact on the bottom of the ocean floor. If we tie that into the fact that the slide which is also used as a raft was on, was above that, above the aircraft and floating.

There may have been some things go on with the aircraft that we hadn't anticipated at all in that it didn't fall and crash into one spot. If it is whole that means there was an attempt to land the aircraft or ditch the aircraft.

LEMON: We talked earlier about the bodies you said whether people knew or not. If they, if they were conscious or not when the plane upon impact. So if you are, if there is a sizable piece of the plane on the ocean floor -- it doesn't indicate survivors or anything?

SOUCIE: It doesn't indicate survivors. It does indicate there wasn't anything significant or catastrophic that happened in the air because if it would have then we were talking about turbulence before and talking about things that would have stalled the aircraft and things like that. If the aircraft had stalled, in unrecoverable position, it would have crashed into the -- and broken into pieces.

LEMON: It doesn't indicate it stalled?

SOUCIE: No.

LEMON: What does it indicate? It is intact? What does it indicate?

SOUCIE: It indicates it may have stalled, but it was a recoverable stall. Meaning that they were able to get the air back over the top of the wings, create lift and control the aircraft. Make an attempt at ditching the aircraft. Not the Potomac River, the ocean. Very rarely are those ditchings in that condition successful.

LEMON: Does that lean any way or another to pilot error or human error?

SOUCIE: Too early at this point, Don. If that aircraft is intact and he did in fact suffer a hard stall or deep stall and was able to recover to that point and keep that fuselage together then we are talking about a heroic act.

LEMON: You know what is interesting to me because you remember when we talked MH-370. It's probably on the bottom of the ocean floor. People were asking is it intact. Everyone seemed to think that a plane that size, in the ocean, would break up upon impact. Even if it, you said not placid not like the Hudson. Is that surprising to you?

SOUCIE: It's not that surprising to me because I have been to the airbus factory, during the Airbus 380 certification, which we were part of. Now those engines are designed to come off. Some of the ditching that we had before was a problem because the engine would catch and spin the aircraft into a cartwheel.

But since that time, the engines are designed to break off. The bottom of the fuselage is designed in such a way that it is nearly a boat if it is correctly landed. There are a lot of variables there. I wouldn't anticipate that it's an easy thing to do certainly in those conditions.

LEMON: All right, so here's the breaking news here on CNN, the search-and-recovery has found a location of the plane. That means they found the location of the plane, location of the plane using sonar technology. It's at the bottom of the Java Sea. At the moment, they still don't know if it is one piece or broken up. They are seeing obviously a big piece of the plane. At the moment they don't know if it's one piece or broken up. And, the person that -- who we spoke to here at CNN said, from CNN spoke to them, said he could not confirm the report that the plane is turned upside down.

So "The Wall Street Journal" is saying it is turned upside down. We cannot confirm that the plane is turned upside down, is that correct? We have not confirmed that. So if it is in one large piece, how do they lift this thing?

SOUCIE: Mostly with balloons like a balloon-type thing. Remember when they were trying to raise some ships and turn them back over after they had run aground. They put bladders underneath them and they pump enormous amounts of air into it and can lift it that way. But we are getting ahead of ourselves that way first because it may be that the aircraft may not have to come out of there at all.

LEMON: And you said, the first thing they are going to do, they want bodies?

SOUCIE: That's right. Yes, you treat the bodies themselves first. Mostly for -- out of due respect for them.

LEMON: Stand by. We'll be right back with more. Don't go anywhere.

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LEMON: Welcome back. Don Lemon here with breaking news here on CNN on Flight 8501. Indonesia has found the location of the airplane. It is shown in a sonar image to be at the bottom of the Java Sea. No word yet on when that object might be recovered.

Also, CNN speaking to a representative says they dent know if the plane was, could not confirm whether it was intact. They found large pieces of the plane, but it's big enough for them to see on sonar.

And also -- "The Wall Street Journal" is reporting that it was upside down. The official could not confirm that with us. Joining us now is David Soucie, an aviation expert and author of "Malaysia Airlines Flight 370" and "Why Planes Crash."

So this information that we are getting now -- if it is true, we don't know. We can't confirm whether it is upside down. But sizable pieces or at least a sizable piece of the plane will definitely help in the investigation and quite quickly I would imagine.

SOUCIE: Absolutely. We'll know a lot within a short period of time. Hopefully that the tail section of the aircraft is what they're looking at because that tail section is where the black boxes are.

So after taking care of the, the victims of the accident, that's the next thing that they'll do and maybe concurrently. There are two teams. Different skill set for both of those things.

LEMON: This is the very harsh question. But, if it is a -- if it is intact, one would assume that they're, there may be -- passengers still there.

SOUCIE: In Flight 447, there were still large sections that had passengers in the aircraft at the bottom of the ocean.

LEMON: Because that so far there have only been six out of the 162.

SOUCIE: Correct.

LEMON: Passengers on board or people on board.

SOUCIE: Right. And I would think that if it did break up into a lot of pieces there would be more people that they have found amount this point so --

LEMON: As we were discussing this last night, we were talking about -- you, I, and Richard Quest. We were talking about the speed at which we get information here. And, you know, with social media and 24-hour news, one would think that it is a long time. This is not actually a long time to actually find debris and passengers.

SOUCIE: Yes, and with social media as quickly as we get information, it is a double edged sword because as an accident investigator, one of the main things you have as a resources to make sure that you are controlling when the information gets out and when it doesn't.

So there is no misleading or unnecessary information out to the wrong places so constantly weighing that as inspector in charge or the investigator in charge.

LEMON: I need to apologize. We were going to do a story on NYPD, coming up New Year's Eve celebration, and whether or not the city would be safe considering what's going on with the mayor and the police department.

But unfortunately, we'll stick with the breaking news. You've won't get the segment this evening, but make sure you stay with CNN. I'm sure we'll be reporting on it throughout the day tomorrow.

Of course, Anderson and Kathy will be in Times Square monitoring all of that. Again, breaking news tonight -- big section of the plane, CNN confirmed, has been found has shown up on sonar. That's information that we have.

"The Wall Street Journal" is now reporting that section of the plane appears to be intact to them, their reporting, and it is upside down. Again, our reporting is that the plane is either -- it's a large section or either intact. We don't know if it is upside down.

So joining me now again is David Soucie, aviation expert with us here. This is as we were talking. This is quite fast.

SOUCIE: It is very fast. I am really pleased how it has come together. It's a great example of how the good leadership, that started with Tony Fernandes propagated itself through the investigation. He didn't get in the way. He didn't hold information. He simply went through it. We heard it said before that her reaction to this is almost that of jealousy because she wishes that she had this information, that that information was available to her. But she can rest assured that, what happened in this investigation was a result of what happened in MH- 370.

Everybody worked together and he and the entire international aviation community worked together to make the next accident more smooth -- smoother and it is. It is running smoother.

LEMON: Yes, you have had a long day at CNN.

SOUCIE: Yes, I have.

LEMON: That's OK. OK, doing a great job here.

SOUCIE: Thank you.

LEMON: But again, we are going to update our viewers on the breaking news. Stand by, David Soucie. Stand by, everyone.