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CNN NEWSROOM

Remembering Two NYPD Officers; How Does New York City Heal?; Mayor Bill de Blasio Must Step Up

Aired December 21, 2014 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Martin Savidge. It's good to be with you.

Let's take you to the scene that is taking place where those two officers in New York City were slain yesterday. This is a vigil that is happening now. And prayers are being said in support of the officers, in support of law enforcement, and the decision-makers of this community. And it's important even in our discussions now to keep in mind the focus needs to be on the loss of those two officers and their memories and families as we discuss larger events around it pertaining to the relationship in New York and the rift with the police department. This, by the way, is in Brooklyn where all of this is happening.

Let me bring back now David Gergen, Martha Pease. David, I interrupted you as we sort of went to break there to continue what you would tell the mayor, or what advice you've got to try to get beyond this, because it's essential for the city to heal.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: First of all, Martin, let me say thank you to you. You're bringing a calm voice to this, which I think is really helpful.

But just as the mayor needs to move quickly to heal the rift with the police and show empathy and respect for the police department, he dare not forget the protesters. And it's really important that the mayor and the country continue to have conversations about legal justice, so because clearly we have --

SAVIDGE: There are legitimate concerns.

GERGEN: There are some legitimate concerns, and we need to be working with the NAACP and other institutions like that, other organizations like that, to address what could be done that would be reasonable that would respect the police. And I think there are some changes that can be made legislatively.

Let's take one example under De Blasio, which I think -- under Bratton in particular -- that has worked. De Blasio ran against what he considered excessive stop and frisk in New York. Bill Bratton comes in and makes some changes. They're not dramatic changes, but the community feels much better about them and crime has not started going back up. So there are things you can do, working with the African- American community, that are essential as well if we're going to bring racial peace and racial justice to this country.

SAVIDGE: Would you agree with all of those steps, Martha, or do you have ideas as well?

MARTHA PEASE, CEO, DEMANDWERKS.COM: I would say agree with the steps and I think something that David said which is critically important, and it sounds soft and it sounds not ineffective, but it's the word empathy. at the flip side of the stereotyping that really is associated with De Blasio and his brand, the flip side of that, he does have a unique position to understand some of the issues that he faces, parley --

SAVIDGE: But the police would criticize and say he's been too empathetic.

PEASE: But I think he needs to bring that empathy to the entire ecosystem of New York City. I think that's the critical issue and not something he's perceived as doing, even know he may try -- he may be trying to execute that. But empathy is critical.

And I think he's got an opportunity to really build a third way, a different kind of way. He is uniquely positioned at this moment to time, given his background, given the challenges that face the largest city, you know, and really what he does here could have an impact at a national level.

SAVIDGE: There are lessons for the nation.

PEASE: There are lessons for the nation. And if it's possible to find a middle way in terms of having a brand and point of view, but also being able to use empathy to drive to a leadership position that's different from what's existed before, that's an important opportunity that he needs to take advantage of.

SAVIDGE: David, he's only a year into his job here as mayor and yet faces some really serious rifts. So, politically what would you do?

GERGEN: I think that the country needs a sense of hope, and I think this is not something that Mayor De Blasio can do alone. I think is going to call on leadership across the board, across the country.

And, Martin, this may seem farfetched but as we go into this week, this is the 100th anniversary of something that was absolutely remarkable. 100 years ago in the First World War, the troops were in trenches facing each other, were killing each other, in extraordinary numbers. And on Christmas Eve, they started singing Christmas carols across the trenches together and the next day they came out and played games together. And it was this moment of silence in the war that showed that people can come together. We're in that -- 100 years later, on this Christmas Eve, I think it's important with these racial tensions we have, we come out of the trenches with each other.

SAVIDGE: You think this is a moment of reflection? GERGEN: I do think it's a moment of reflection, and maybe this --

maybe this terrible, terrible, heinous crime yesterday can somehow get us out of our trenches, understand we've got to bring this to an end. We thought -- you and I both thought back in the '60s and '70s that the country was on the right path; we were going to heal a lot of this. Here we are back again with some of these very fundamental questions.

SAVIDGE: Martha, you're a New Yorker. You live here.

PEASE: Yes.

SAVIDGE: And I'm wondering, do New Yorkers see that the mayor is a person who can recover from this, or I've seen that there's a petition drive under way to ask for him to step down. What are New Yorkers feeling about this sense that there is a deep divide?

PEASE: Well, I think New Yorkers are waiting to see how he's going to handle this.

SAVIDGE: He's not going to be a Rudy Giuliani; it's not fair to think that he might be, correct? I mean --

PEASE: No, he's not going to be a Rudy Giuliani, but something that New Yorkers don't like is a loser. I mean, we want a winner and we want a winner in the mayor, in the mayor's office.

SAVIDGE: But you know there's no way to win out of a tragedy like this.

PEASE: There's no way to win, but there has to be a way to move forward. And in terms of the brand of New York, if you're talking about brand --

SAVIDGE: And we are.

PEASE: And we are. We're talking about the future economic stability of the city. We're talking about a whole set of quality of life issues that keep people coming in and living here and creating a tax base. I mean, those are issues that are incredibly important to New Yorkers that have been in question, I would say, for the past year. And certainly this situation doesn't resolve any of those questions. Whether there's a petition drive or not, the real question is going to be can his brand regain some equilibrium and move to a different level? I think the leadership issue is probably the most crucial issue that's been thrown into question here.

GERGEN: And tragedies (ph) test leadership if nothing else.

SAVIDGE: They do. We've seen it in the past. Thank you, both, very much for a great conversation on a difficult subject.

Earlier, family and friends of murdered New York police officer Rafael Ramos gathered this evening to speak about this very tragedy. Emotions ran high among some of those speakers at the event.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You may unite us.

TONY HERBERT, BROOKLYN COMMUNITY ACTIVIST: This is a tragic time in our community and our state, quite frankly, to turn around and have to deal with this kind of senseless violence. Not only are we losing people in the community, but now we're losing police officers to the same stupid rhetoric that deals with guns. We stand here unified with this family, with the Ramos family, with regards to the issue that took place yesterday. Our hearts are actually painstakingly crushed right now.

Now is the time for all of us to get to the table, our elected officials, our community folks. And not just one particular person that's a community rep, everybody needs to be at the table, so we can generate the necessary information to move this community forward.

JUAN RODRIGUEZ, PRESIDENT, 75TH PRECINCT COMMUNITY COUNCIL: Mr. Mayor, you need to have a sit-down and you need to get everything corrected from the mayor's office down because this is wrong. We need -- we need you to work with the community and the police department. We don't need you to go to one side. The police department needs you as well. What about if that was your son sitting in that patrol car? If that was your son that got shot in the head? Then what? Why don't you come out and say that?

HERBERT: You got to keep understanding, New York is a corporation. And every time we turn around, there's a dollar amount associated with everything that goes down. That being said, apparently, we are actually looked upon as those who are keeping the city running. So giving us summons (ph) and putting the pressure on us and having mandates on police officers is not the way to go, and this creates this sentiment that makes people frustrated. And that's why you get the attitude that you get with police officers, because they're pushed out there to come after us to help this city make money.

We stand behind our police department. We support the members of the community that put on the uniform to go out here and do the job that needs to be done to keep us safe. I don't know who in the heck got the impression this community is not behind their police department and they think enough that they can come here and take them out. That's not going to happen. We're not going to allow that to continue to happen. It's unacceptable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAVIDGE: How did we get to this point? Police under suspicion and under fire. Officers turning the backs on the mayor. Can we find unity amid tragedy? Who will heal the sharp divisions in New York? It's all ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAVIDGE: Looking at the memorial that has sprung up there at the site where the two New York City police officers were slain in Brooklyn. You can see there as flowers continue to be laid. There are notes, there are candles, there's a menorah, there's an American flag. There are so many things that represent the diversity of New York City and, of course, that would imply that there are so many people coming together to mourn this terrible death of these two officers that served New York City.

And it's a candlelight vigil, a public vigil, and it was an open invitation to all New Yorkers to be there. You could imagine -- and we've been listening to some of the prayers, to some of the hymns and even just the silence. Very poignant there as you look at the people who are now overflowing into the streets and into the surrounding community.

But that right there is the exact spot where the police squad car was that the two officers were sitting in when they were, according to authorities, ambushed by the suspect and shot dead.

I want to bring in my panel again, New York City councilman Jumaane Williams, psychologist Jeff Gardere. Joining us now, former New York police detective Gil Alba. Jeff, let me talk and turn to you first, and we've talked about that there is this -- it appears this critical divide right at the moment when you want to see unity between the mayor and his police force. So what would you suggest from your background, your experience, be done here to try and bridge it?

JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think one of the things first, my condolences to the slain officers' family, Liu and Ramos, of course, but I think this can also be an opportunity from this tragedy -- we don't want to see this happen -- but to understand that police officers are people, too. And it's not just a caricature of a corrupt individual, that these are hardworking men and women.

I need to see the community and the police departments come together. The community can't survive without the police. The police cannot survive without the community. And this is the opportunity. And I do have all the hopes in the world that Mayor De Blasio will use this as an opportunity to be able to bring his police force in tow to be part of a progressive New York. That's what we've seen.

I'm just -- I'm shocked from a psychological point of view that if someone is critical of the police department and they want them to do better, then they're seen as anti-cop. And they're not. I think what we've seen here, you've talked about this, the outpouring of love from the New York community, a lot of these people -- we saw menorahs and crosses and so on. It is diverse, because a lot of those people who are there, and who brought a lot of those things to show their love for the police, are also people who are also upset about Michael Brown and Eric Garner. So it doesn't have to be a divide here. This is about all of us wanting to do better as a community and that's what we must do.

SAVIDGE: Gil, you're the police officer in the room.

GIL ALBA, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: You know you can't argue with anything like that, but what's the underlying factor here? I mean, there's -- the police take action in those communities and this is what happens from that. But you get the police together with the community. What happens

after that? I mean, how do you -- I mean, there's still poor people and they go to work and some people don't. And I think those underlying factors are so much more important than the police relations. And this is what happens, when these neighborhoods actually fall apart and people need jobs and everything else -- an incident with the police because the police are supposed to protect them, and especially in the neighborhoods where they need them. And this is what happens, and that's why it's such a divide.

But this is a little unusual difference because you're talking about a mayor and you're talking about the police, so there are two different issues.

GARDERE: And we're talking about the police, but let's be clear, we're talking about Patrick Lynch, who has a history of divisiveness in this city. I know that he wants to protect his police officers but I firmly believe Mayor De Blasio wants to protect the police officers, too. And so when you come out with that kind of talk of, OK, now we're going to -- now this is war on the protesters, this blood on people's hands, that's not what we need to bring together this city. We have to have calm and we have to have reason.

SAVIDGE: If you could talk to the mayor, Jumaane, maybe you do, the advice you'd give right now?

JUMAANE WILLIAMS, NEW YORK CITY COUCNILMAN: I think -- I'm in constant communication with the administration. I think, as people mentioned, he's in a precarious situation. I think he's also in a pretty powerful situation. He can't apologize for something that's not there. I think what can happen, what people have been saying, this is a great opportunity to bring people together. Abd I think he is trying to do that. I think it's important that he -- someone mentioned the word empathy. I think he has empathy for what a lot of us have been talking about. And, of course, he has empathy for his police department. And so that part, for some reason, is being warped by people like Pat Lynch and I think he's going to, in the coming days, do a good job of turning that around. We're at a cusp here.

SAVIDGE: We are.

WILLIAMS: And so it's very important. Not just in New York City but across the country.

SAVIDGE: I think people do realize that. We are at some pinnacle moment here, albeit brought on by tragedy. We're going to talk more about that right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAVIDGE: Pray for our fallen officers and stand together as a city like we did after 9/11. That appeal coming from a New York City community leader after two of the city's finest officers were ambushed in their patrol car. This may be easier said than done, giving the growing tensions between the New York City mayor and the New York City Police Department. So rejoining me now is Jumaane Williams, Gil Alba, and Jeff Gardere.

You know, I keep going back to this question, but it's so important. Jumaane, how does this city begin to heal?

WILLIAMS: Well, we have to accept some truisms and one is, as was mentioned before, trying to get better policing is not anti-police. That's one. Two, there are genuine concerns that need to be discussed civilly without the hyyperbolic rhetoric that is dangerous.

SAVIDGE: On both sides.

WILLIAMS: And so if we come, I would say -- yes, on both sides. But I do believe on certain sides, it's being raised exponentially at every turn and we have to stop. These communities ask for police officers, they do. They also ask that those police officers police fairly and justly. It is OK to have both of those things in your mind. They also ask for better housing conditions, better schools, more jobs --

SAVIDGE: Which goes beyond the realm of the police, of course.

WILLIAMS: And streets even cleaned.

GARDERE: Yes.

WILLIAMS: So those things have to be addressed at the same time as well. We keep hyperfocusing on the police. We should; we have to fix that. We have to get these other agencies in, and we have to say, it's OK -- if I say I want a better housing conditions, doesn't say I'm against housing agents. Stop saying because I want something better that I'm anti- something.

GARDERE: But Jumaane, a major --

(CROSSTALK)

SAVIDGE: Jumaane is getting there are a lot of social issues here.

GARDERE: Right, right, exactly. And this is very, very complex. But I think we also need to understand what the pressures that the police officers are under? You spoke about this earlier with some of your guests that they have to have certain quotas that they have to hit. They have to work in certain communities and do certain things that they may not want to do.

You know, I've worked with the NYPD on doing some trainings and so on. These are good men and women, but they're under a lot of pressure. But we have to make sure that we don't see them as the enemy. They're not that at all. We need to support them. But we also need to support better policing and support the communities who want better policing.

WILLIAMS: And they're often put in bad situations. I feel sorry --

SAVIDGE: Let me ask you, Gil, you're the man right here, former officer. Pressures, let's talk about them. ALBA: They said about Patrick Lynch, you know, saying what he did say.

SAVIDGE: The union representative.

ALBA: And it's really -- not only him. The Sergeants Benevolent Association also said that, and those are the unions there --

GARDERE: And people are politicizing that, by the way. Other people have said things, George Pataki. Several others.

ALBA: Yes, not only that. Other people have said that. So it's what happened at the moment that he said this. And we're talking about De Blasio has to do something. Patrick Lynch has to do something. The New York City Police Department has to do something to get the city together.

Do I have confidence in New York City they can get together? Of course I do. And how about you guys? How do you feel?

GARDERE: Absolutely.

WILLIAMS: Yes, but as a point, what Jeff said, we have to -- when people are seeing these officers, they need to see human beings. They need to see Ramos, the father and the husband. They need to see Liu, the newlywed. Everybody wants to get back home to their families. Now, we have to understand that. At the same time, we have to understand that people have a right to say we want better policing. Those two things can exist.

GARDERE: And people have the right to peacefully protest. Certainly I condemn -- and I know every civil rights person has condemned -- when people were protesting and some of them said, you know, "kill the police" or we want that -- that's absolutely wrong and we can't do that.

WILLIAMS: Before we get on, I want to make sure we said this, because at times these officers who take this job to make the community better are put in awful situations that they shouldn't be put in. They're put in some place and say, you have a quota, get me these arrests.

(CROSSTALK)

SAVIDGE: How much pressure is on the officers?

ALBA: There's a lot of pressure. But when you say -- when you have demonstrations and say kill the cops, there's crazy people out there. This guy was mentally --

SAVIDGE: There are always --

ALBA: There are always -- and almost instigating. So this guy has, you know, he's in despair, this guy. What is he going to do? So he hears all this, he has two people that -- he uses them as an excuse --

GARDERE: But, Gil, a lot of emotions -- (CROSSTALK)

GARDERE: With Patrick Lynch saying what he said, he said that with emotion, and I hope he regrets that. The protesters who are out there saying, "kill the cops," that was high emotion. I hope they didn't mean that.

WILLIAMS: On both sides, people need to --

GARDERE: We have to be careful what we say

ALBA: I'm not arguing the emotions. I'm arguing that what it does to other people. And it's almost, you know, you're instigating -- you're instigating something like this.

WILLIAMS: Let's use this tragedy to move forward civilly. The people are trying to use it to exploit other things.

GARDERE: Let's not politicize it.

ALBA: That's right.

GARDERE: Let's bring people together.

WILLIAMS: These officers are really dead. Their families don't have them anymore. And it's Christmas.

GARDERE: That's a tragedy.

WILLIAMS: That's what we should be focusing on right now.

SAVIDGE: You know, New York, of course, biggest city in the country, but it's also a place that people look to maybe as lessons learned and ways forward for their own communities where they struggle with incidents -- if not directly like this, their own community tragedies. And I think it's hoped, in many ways, if anybody can figure this out, bridge the divides, and shine a light, it is this city.

GARDERE: That's right. It is a very progressive city. We have very good leaders. We have to bring the forces who see each other as enemies, bring them together because, at the end of the day, we are New Yorkers. We want a better New York. We want a better community. We want a better police force.

WILLIAMS: And NYPD has to be a partner in moving this thing forward.

SAVIDGE: Where is city council in all of this?

WILLIAMS: I think sometimes they put a spin on us as well. But we're doing the same thing. We started the Gun Violence Task Force. So thankfully the mayor expanded that. We're trying to move to a community policing model, actually, with pure (ph) violence people on the ground and other agencies at the table. Everybody is looking at the same data the police department is looking at, and the department of mental health, division of youth community development, department of education, are all saying in these communities what can we do together? That's what needs to happen across the city. That's what needs to happen across the nation. That's where we should be directing our energies right now.

SAVIDGE: Does this all need to be carried out in public view? I mean, you are in the entertainment capital of the world, so to speak, the media capital. Or is there something these conversations -- police, mayor, community -- behind closed doors or at least in some privacy?

ALBA: They have -- definitely behind closed doors and get together, so there's no rhetoric, there's no fighting, there's no -- get together. However, you have community leaders and then you have the police department who -- these -- they figure they hate the police, so why are we going to meet with them, you know, in the first place? So it's tough to get together.

WILLIAMS: The answer is both.

GRADERE: The answer is both, but they have to be transparent. And you talked about earlier, Patrick Lynch had said, well, perhaps he doesn't want Mayor De Blasio to come to the funerals. Mayor De Blasio is going to go to those funerals. He must be at the funerals.

WILLIAMS: He has to go.

GRADERE: He must stand with Patrick Lynch. The two of them have to be seen together, because this is a symbol of what we are looking at as far as bringing the disparate forces together for the greater good or New Yorkers and the country.

SAVIDGE: Gil, there were some reports that there actually was something that the officers asked or signed to say they did or did not want the mayor at the funeral. What was that?

ALBA: Yes, if any officers get killed, they don't want the mayor to come to the funeral. The mayor has to go to the funeral. Actually, the mayor has to start taking over right now and start getting on TV and having press conferences by himself.

SAVIDGE: You would like to see a stronger or more --

ALBA: He has to be more stronger and take a lot of control.

Now, the police commissioner who's saying everything and no him. I guess he may be afraid of what kind of political questions they may ask. So he has to go to the -- are they going to stand together? I'm not too sure about that.

SAVIDGE: Jumaane, do you agree the mayor should --

WILLIAMS: Oh, absolutely. And what you were talking about was a petition that Patrick Lynch, the leader of the union, tried to put out, but there's no word that said that these officers signed the petition. I agree he has to go to the funerals.

The other thing I wanted to say, we have to stop trying to delegitimize people's experiences. And so people in this country didn't get on a conference call and say we're going to do something all at once. What you're seeing here is actually legitimate issues and legitimate real life things that people are going through. When you delegitimize people' s experience, their human experience, it becomes a frustrating thing.

SAVIDGE: We have to leave it there. Jeff, I'm sorry.

GRADERE: Absolutely.

SAVIDGE: Thank you, all, for joining us.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

SAVIDGE: And we want to leave you tonight with the words of a 13- year-old boy. That is Jaden Ramos, the son of the two New York City police officers who were gunned down in Brooklyn.

And he wrote this on Facebook. And I quote, "Today is the worst day of my life." And then in a separate post, he wrote, "Today, I had to say bye to my father. He was there for me every day of my life and he was the best father I could ask for. It's horrible that someone get shot dead just for being a police officer. Everyone says they hate cops but they are the people they call for help. I will always love you and I will never forget you. RIP Dad."

Very tough even to read. But the words of a boy who will never see his father again.

I'm Martin Savidge in New York. Thanks for watching.