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CNN TONIGHT

U.S. Investigators Announcing North Korea Ordered Sony Hack Attack; Sony Cancels Release of 'The Interview'; Historic Shift in U.S.-Cuban Relations

Aired December 17, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Tonight, the latest on two big stories. First up hack attack. Washington says North Korea is behind the hackers who brought Sony to its knees, forcing the studio to cancel the Christmas release of the Seth Rogen movie "The Interview" after being threatened with 9/11- style attacks on theaters. But this is much bigger than any movie. This is a victory with Pyongyang. Without firing a single shot.

So did they get what they wanted or will they strike again?

Plus, Cuba Libre. Washington and Havana easing diplomatic relations after a 50-year defreeze. But don't break out the Mojitos and the fajitas just yet. Not everybody is celebrating this deal.

Tonight two people who couldn't disagree more go head-to-head on whether this is good or bad for America.

And what does it all mean for President Obama? Commander-in-chief looked like he was on the ropes after the midterm elections. But with the deal in Cuba, acts on immigration, and improving economy, is Barack Obama turning his presidency around?

We'll get to all of that. We've got a lot to get to tonight. But I want to begin with our justice correspondent, Pamela Brown, she has the very latest on this Sony hack.

So, Pam, do we know if North Korea did this on their own? Is their technology even that capable?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, that is the big question. And sources I have been speaking with say initially when all those clues were pointing toward North Korea, some investigators were shocked that they had this sophistication to be able to pull this off. But I am being told that the understanding, the belief in the U.S. government, is that this was coming directly from the North Korean leadership, given the fact that North Korea has such a tight control of the Internet.

And also the country is known to have this group of elite hackers if you've will, called Bureau 121, the country has poured a lot of resources into this group. And they're known to have been behind the attack against South Korea's banks last year that you may remember that. And so there's a possibility that they could be behind this or that North Korea outsourced it to a group outside of the U.S. -- outside of North Korea.

Of course we hope to learn more when this announcement is made. And I will, on that note, point out that the NSC, the National Security Council, released a statement tonight saying that, "The U.S. government is working tirelessly to bring the perpetrators of this attack to justice and we are considering a range of options in weighing a potential response."

Don, that is the big challenge here. How will the U.S. respond once it calls out North Korea?

LEMON: What about this threat that the hackers made yesterday, Pamela, against theaters? How serious is the FBI taking this? Do they consider this terrorism?

BROWN: Yes, I think it's being considered by a lot of people, cyber terrorism. I mean, this is hacking like we have never seen. It's been taken to a whole new level. And we've seen the fallout from it, Don, I mean, to the point that now a movie is being pulled. I don't know that I have ever heard of this happening before.

So, yes, it's being taken seriously to the point where the FBI did send out an internal memo, we're being told, to cyber task forces in the field to coordinate with other law enforcement folks in order to make sure they're aware of this threat and that theaters are protected. But we're being told by sources that there is no intelligence indicating that there is any active plotting taking place.

But it's just amazing, Don, to see what a ripple effect this has had.

LEMON: Absolutely.

Justice correspondent Pamela Brown in Washington. Thank you, Pamela.

Joining me now to discuss all of this, Alan Dershowitz, the author of e-book "Terror Tunnels" and CNN senior analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

Alan, to you first. Sony canceled the release of "The Interview" after five theater chains said they wouldn't run it. Did they cave to blackmail?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AUTHOR, "TERROR TUNNELS": Well, of course they did. But, you know, let's point the finger at North Korea. They have declared war on our First Amendment. And they have won the first victory. This is Pearl Harbor on the First Amendment. And we have to decide how to respond. We must respond.

First of all, Sony, I think made a terrible mistake. Not in pulling it from the theaters. But in not immediately announcing that they're going to make it available free on the Internet so that millions of people could watch it or at least make it available on demand so that people could watch it outside of the context of theaters which endanger our morals and endanger people. This way people can choose whether to see it.

We can't give them a total victory over our First Amendment.

LEMON: Pearl Harbor? Is this -- do you think this was a mistake by Sony?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: This is a very big deal. I mean, you know, this story started out for a lot of people, I think, as sort of a joke. I mean, that a Seth Rogen movie could somehow be --

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: It could be a serious issue. But, you know, what North Korea has learned is that they can stop a movie, which means they think they can stop a newspaper if there's a story that they don't like or that can start -- stop a cable news network if they don't -- like what we're broadcasting.

LEMON: Where does it end, right?

TOOBIN: That is a very chilling message. And -- I understand why the movie theater. It wasn't Sony that pulled the movie. It really was --

DERSHOWITZ: Right.

TOOBIN: It was the movie theaters that refused to show it. Those are separate companies.

LEMON: But to Alan's point, though, I mean, they didn't say we were going to release it on the Internet or have you --

TOOBIN: That may yet happen. I mean, this is only -- it only was pulled from theaters today. But, you know, this is a very big deal. And we have to figure out a way to respond because --

LEMON: It is early on.

TOOBIN: -- doing nothing has a big cost.

LEMON: Hang on -- Alan.

DERSHOWITZ: Only a coming attraction.

LEMON: Yes. Yes. But Sony did say today they're not going to release it digitally.

DERSHOWITZ: No.

LEMON: So that --

DERSHOWITZ: This is only a coming attraction.

LEMON: Yes. DERSHOWITZ: You think that North Korea is tough. Wait until Iran

gets a nuclear bomb so that we can't do anything to them the way we can't do anything to North Korea. And wait until the first movies come out that do anything to criticize Islam or criticize Arab or Muslim countries.

This is the beginning of a process that could really have more of an impact on our First Amendment than "The New York Times" vs. Sullivan and so many other domestic --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Freedom of expression, right? And freedom of speech.

DERSHOWITZ: Right. It really is in danger.

LEMON: Let's listen to the president. He spoke to ABC earlier and talked about the cyber attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The cyber attack is very serious. We are investigating it. We are taking it seriously. We will be vigilant. If we see something that we think is serious and credible, then we will alert the public. But for now, my recommendation would be that people go to the movies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And this is before Sony made the announcement, Jeffrey, that they weren't going to -- is this a model now for blackmailers or for terrorists?

TOOBIN: Absolutely. And remember, this is only the entertainment part of the -- the economy. Think about this sort of attack on a bank or a brokerage, where, you know, the lifeblood of the economy works. You know, I am not a cyber terrorism expert. I don't know how extensively they can -- they can invade those sorts of systems but if you look at what they did at Sony, Sony is a major corporation.

They undoubtedly had the usual kind of protections in place. If they can do it to Sony, it sure looks like they can do it to anybody.

LEMON: And to both of your points, because first the hackers leaked e-mails, embarrassing e-mails, initially just about A-list stars, right, from the executives that was issued. But I want to read this, this is what they said. They went a little bit further here.

They said, "The world will be full of fear. Remember the 11th of September, 2001. We recommend you to keep yourself distant from the places at that time. And if your house is nearby, you better leave."

DERSHOWITZ: So this is a direct threat of physical, violence, at moviegoers and people who go to the mall. This is also an attack on Christmas. Let's be very clear about that because one of the reasons Sony had no choice but to fold is this could affect Christmas shopping, this could affect the way Christmas Day is celebrated. It could affect not only this movie, but any movie playing in the same complex. So this is a big deal.

TOOBIN: In a way that's more serious than the hacking because there is no -- if you can simply send an e-mail and bring a movie to a halt, that's -- you know, that's an incredible statement about what -- and -- but the thing I think people need to realize is that responding to that has a cost, too.

LEMON: Yes.

TOOBIN: You know, backing away has a cost.

LEMON: We've learned that the government is going to name North Korea as the culprit.

DERSHOWITZ: Yes.

LEMON: So you said you're not a terrorism expert. The state sponsored terrorism, is that what it is?

DERSHOWITZ: This is a state sponsored terrorism. Let's remember, too, that there's a prelude to this. When Yale University press refused to print the cartoons that they wrote a book about because they were fearful that students at Yale might be physically attacked.

TOOBIN: You're talking about the Muslim -- the Muhammad cartoon.

DERSHOWITZ: The Muhammad cartoons.

TOOBIN: That's right.

DERSHOWITZ: That was a capitulation as well. So we are seeing a process. And there is no -- as Jeffrey has said there is no end to this because if this succeeds, it doesn't stop with entertainment.

LEMON: If you can give this to me quickly, Jeff, do you think that North Korea has the capability to carry out -- either of you -- can carry a 9/11-style attack?

TOOBIN: Well, it depends what you mean by 9/11 style attack. I mean, you know, a -- a small bomb. I mean, 9/11 was not technologically sophisticated. You know, it was box cutters. They certainly have box cutters in North Korea and --

DERSHOWITZ: But do they have suicide bombers?

TOOBIN: People are scared. Yes.

DERSHOWITZ: There's no culture of suicide there the way there has been in other parts of the world. I don't think they have the infrastructure to do it. But they don't have to. All they have to do is threaten it credibly.

LEMON: Stand by, gentlemen, because I want to get to someone else.

I want to bring in Sharon Waxman, the editor-in-chief of "The Wrap."

Sharon, thank you for being here with us. To remind our viewers now, the movie is about the CIA asking an interviewer with a talk show and his producer to kill North Korean leader Kim Jong-Un. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIZZY CAPLAN, ACTOR, "THE INTERVIEW": You two are going to been in a room alone with Kim. And the CIA would love it if you could take him out?

SENT ROGEN, ACTOR, "THE INTERVIEW": Huh?

CAPLAN: Take him out.

ROGEN: For coffee?

JAMES FRANCO, ACTOR, "THE INTERVIEW": Dinner?

ROGEN: Kim-chi?

CAPLAN: No. Take him out.

ROGEN: You want us to kill the leader of North Korea?

CAPLAN: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, Sharon, Americans are going, a Seth Rogen movie? This plot is absurd. With the risk of an attack against theaters did the owners have any real choice here?

SHARON WAXMAN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF "THE WRAP.": Did the owners have any real choice? No. They absolutely had to cancel the movie. Can you imagine if there any -- a hair damaged on the head of a single moviegoer because of anything that might relate to North Korea threatening a 9/11-style attack? The legal liability, I'm not the lawyer in the room, you've got a couple of major lawyers on your panel. But the legal liabilities here -- are just, logically speaking, are huge. And of course nobody wants that moral responsibility.

So once you have that, I mean we all knew, all of us here who cover this story as extensively in Hollywood knew it was just a matter of time. And in fact, Alan and I had this conversation on your show a couple of nights ago when it seemed impossible that "The Interview" would be pulled and just collapsed in the past 24 hours.

DERSHOWITZ: There would be no legal liability but there would be moral accountability. Legally they could have kept the movie going. And they wouldn't be responsible if a movie-goer voluntarily went into the movie.

LEMON: I want to read this for you, Sharon. It's from Judd Apatow. Judd Apatow is a director and producer. And he tweeted this. He says, "I think it is disgraceful that these theaters are not showing 'The Interview.' Will they pull any movie that gets an anonymous threat now?"

How about that? Where is the line, is the question.

WAXMAN: Well, I think, and also the creative community has been very upset and Judd Apatow is obviously a very close friend of Seth Rogen. There's a group of comedians so they support each other. Very vocal on social media. In favor of continuing to release the movie. But he doesn't have to face consequences if something goes terribly wrong.

I also want to point out something that does not seem to be part of the discussion, which is where are our responsibilities in our exercising of the First Amendment? And I mean both those of us in the media and those of us who are making movies and those who are writing about the community that makes movies, which is to say, where is the -- what is the thought process behind making a movie in which we decide to depict the -- for our amusement, the assassination of a living foreign leader?

LEMON: That's a good point.

WAXMAN: Right. I mean, we're not allowed to cry fire in a crowded theater. That is part of the responsibility of our First Amendment rights. And so I think that common sense also has to prevail when we exercise our artistic freedoms and our First Amendment freedoms.

LEMON: All right. Stand by, everyone. I want to -- I'm going to talk a bit about hackers now. So what do we know about the hackers who brought down Sony and what else are they capable of?

Joining me now is Kevin Mitnick, he's the CEO of MitnickSecurity.com. And he was once one of the FBI's most wanted after hacking into 40 major corporations for the challenge.

So we need to hear from you. Are the hackers celebrating tonight? Is this a win for them?

KEVIN MITNICK, MITNICKSECURITIES.COM: Well, it's a win for, you know, the hackers or the people that ordered them to do the attack. I mean, they got a movie pulled which is -- I couldn't believe it was -- they actually complied with the hackers' demand. But I could understand the liability issues if they're there. But -- yes. That's definitely a win for them. Unfortunately.

LEMON: So, Kevin, help us understand the sophistication of this attack. If hackers can cause this level of havoc, what else can they do? Could they take out a power grid or damage our banking system?

MITNICK: Well there's already been attacks on critical infrastructure where allegedly the Chinese have been able to get in. And this is what I do for a living. Companies actually hire me to break into their networks and their systems to test their security. And amazingly, our success rate is about 100 percent. I mean, it's not hard to break into a major company these days. Especially one with Sony because their attack surface is so huge because they have so many systems to attack out on the Internet.

So it's really hard to defend against these attacks. Until the security industry matures and comes up with better technologies for companies to use, I think this is going to happen again and again.

LEMON: Kevin, Danny Zucker is the executive producer of one of the most successful shows on television, "Modern Family." Here's what he tweeted out tonight. He said, "America will never give in to the demand of terrorists. Unless they don't like our movies in which case we will fold like a beach chair."

What message do you think that this sends to hackers around the globe that they can -- what's the takeaway, the fallout today?

MITNICK: Well, the concern is copycats. You know, now that the movie was pulled because of the hacking, what's to stop other hacking groups out there that want to send a message and break into a company, post all their information, make demands, threaten violence. It could happen again.

I think it was actually a bad move to pull the movie. But again I'm not a lawyer. I don't know the liability. But it's really a shame that this particular group, you know, these are different types of hackers. More like cyber terrorists. And --

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ: They can't hide behind --

MITNICK: Because of what they're doing they're giving hackers a really bad name because this is -- you know, this is really unprecedented behavior.

DERSHOWITZ: They can't hide behind legal liability. There'd be no legal liability if everybody was on notice. And they just said you go to the movie at your risk. There would be no legal liability for exercising a First Amendment right to show the movie. There may be economic consequences and moral consequences but they can't hide behind a legal liability.

WAXMAN: Well -- I mean, certainly none of the other Hollywood studios. They were -- you know, that's the story we had on the site today. The other studios who have major movies also opening the same day were very upset that Sony didn't pull the movie earlier because they're concerned about how it impacts the audience that's turning out for their movies.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: Well, Sharon, wait a second. You know, let's talk for a second about these other studios. You know, what a profile in cowardice they have been. Why haven't they come out and supported the fact that this is a threat to the entertainment business as a whole? And so where is Disney? Where is Paramount? Where is Warner Brothers apparently?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Before you answer that, Sharon. Before you answer that, because the "Hollywood Reporter" is saying that New Regency Studio dropping plans to produce a film set in North Korea, starring Steve Carell.

WAXMAN: Guys, wait. Whoa. We broke that story this morning. So sorry. I got to take credit where credit is due.

LEMON: Go ahead.

WAXMAN: Our Jeff Sneider broke that this morning. Steve Carell's movie about -- called "Pyongyang" has been pulled. And that was a direct -- another direct response to this. Yes.

Where are the other studios? If you are looking for more rectitude and spine from Hollywood studios you are definitely looking in the wrong place. But I would say in their defense, their responsibility is to their shareholders. And if they feel that they're put at risk by standing in solidarity with Sony, which they would be, then they have a responsibility to look out for their own interests before they look out for their colleagues.

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ: Well, that's short term. That's short term.

TOOBIN: That's a bunch of nonsense.

DERSHOWITZ: There's long term --

WAXMAN: That's a business call.

LEMON: So has the self-censorship begun considering the story that "The Wrap" broke this morning? Has self-censorship begun?

WAXMAN: Thank you.

TOOBIN: Yes.

LEMON: Yes.

WAXMAN: Yes. Yes.

TOOBIN: It has begun in a big way.

WAXMAN: Absolutely.

TOOBIN: And you know, the issue is who is going to decide who makes our movies? Is it going to be the executives or is it going to be the leadership of North Korea?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: The terrorists win? Did the terrorists win?

WAXMAN: Let us also be --

DERSHOWITZ: Seriously no. We know we --

WAXMAN: Let's be honest. Let's be honest for a second. There are lots of villains who are off limits today including China because how big of a market it's become. China has now become a de facto editor of Hollywood movies.

LEMON: I've got to go, Sharon. I've got to go.

WAXMAN: So let's not pretend that it's pure.

DERSHOWITZ: So we have to make films now only about Canada.

LEMON: Yes or no, did the terrorists win today?

DERSHOWITZ: Yes.

TOOBIN: You bet.

WAXMAN: Yes.

MITNICK: Yes.

MITNICK: Yes, they did.

DERSHOWITZ: And they probably will do it again.

LEMON: All right. Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Appreciate it.

We've got a lot more to get to on the Sony hack attack.

Next, President Obama says he should go to the movies without fear. We should go to the movies without fear. But what is Washington doing to fight back? We're going to ask Jay Carney and Carl Bernstein.

Plus our other big story, the historic thaw that could open Cuba's doors to Americans for the first time in 50 years. Is it good or bad for this country? I'm going to ask a man who has seen it all in hot sports all over the world, Mr. Dan Rather.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: There is even more bad news for Sony tonight. Hours after the studio canceled the release of "The Interview" it issued a statement, tamping down speculation that it might put out the film digitally. Now clearly the hackers won here. But now what is Washington going to do about all this?

Joining me now is CNN political commentators Carl Bernstein and Jay Carney.

Welcome, gentlemen.

Jay, you first. If North Korea is responsible, should the U.S. call it state-sponsored terrorism? Is this a new kind of war? JAY CARNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it's definitely a cyber

attack. And Washington clearly knows and believes that North Korea was responsible. Now what the consequences are we'll have to see. There could be a tit-for-tat of sorts in response to this. I don't think you can take too many more steps to isolate North Korea since it's the most isolated regime in the world already.

But I think that this is obviously a matter of concern for the United States because of the level of success that these hackers had in laying waste, if you will, digitally to a major, international corporation with a major American --

LEMON: To follow up what you said. What can the U.S. do, Jay?

CARNEY: Well, I don't think the U.S. can do anything directly. I think President Obama and other leaders should speak out for the First Amendment. Should discourage actions like the one that Sony took and theaters took that basically caved to these kinds of threats. I think that the suggestion mentioned earlier that Sony should have and could still despite its announcement today make the film available digitally so that people are safe in their -- own homes when they watch it.

I think that's what they should do because right now you have a bunch of hackers in North Korea and an illegitimate and rogue regime in North Korea basically deciding what Americans and viewers around the world can watch.

LEMON: And, Carl, you -- on the show on Monday, you told us that you were hacked and these hackers have succeeded in scuttling "The Interview," that movie. But what are the implications to free speech here?

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, they're terrible. This is a terrible moment in our cultural history. It's a terrible moment in our national security history. It's a craven moment. But also about unprincipled capitalism. And I would hope -- look, we heard the president say people should go to the movies. He must have some pretty good intelligence that says I haven't seen anything indicating a real threat to people going to the movies. The FBI or National Security apparatus thinks he's an imminent danger.

There has been some craven behavior on the part of one of our major industries in this country. The entertainment industry, the heart of it, a huge company that has been ham-handed from beginning to end in this and I say this sadly, as somebody who's got a project that may or may not go with Sony.

But you couldn't ask for anything worse in terms of who we are as a people or a culture. And the White House, I would think, I'm not in the business of giving the White House advice somehow has got to put a little spine into the people in Hollywood. I'm sitting here in Hollywood right now. This is a terrible moment.

LEMON: And --

BERNSTEIN: It requires some real response. It's quite different than what we have seen from the entertainment industry. And Sharon Waxman talking about the responsibility to the stockholders. If that's what this is about, we're in terrible trouble.

LEMON: You probably didn't do yourself any favors if you're looking to get a project off the ground.

I want to read to you what Newt Gingrich tweeted about Sony. He said, "No one should kid themselves. With the Sony collapse, America has lost its first cyber war. This is a very, very dangerous precedent."

So, Carl, you know, what message will ISIS or the Taliban or any other terror group take from this capitulation?

BERNSTEIN: It's obvious. You know, Newt Gingrich and I aren't known for being on the same page too often but we sure are here. This is terrible. It also means that almost any lone wolf terrorist can find some way to inhibit, scare the hell out of big businesses and we now have capitulated to a force. You know, we don't negotiate with kidnappers. This is a similar kind of question. What are we doing here? By saying, oh, let's let these guys just come in and have their way.

I would hope that the White House with the entertainment industry figures out a way to somehow insist that this movie get out there. Also I think that we ought to really go back to Sharon Waxman's question, though. Now what the hell was Sony thinking of in the first place about a movie with an exploding head of the North Korean leader?

LEMON: Well, let's -- hang on, hold that thought. Hold that thought because Seth Rogen is at the center of this. He was on "Colbert" last night. He talked about this. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROGEN: We wanted to make a movie that had kind of one foot in reality, that something we as filmmakers like and think is interesting as audience members as well.

STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE COLBERT REPORT": But is it appropriate to make jokes about real things in the world?

ROGEN: I personally think --

COLBERT: You think so?

ROGEN: It is appropriate to make jokes about real things.

COLBERT: Did you think about changing his name at all? Like calling him like Phil Jong-Un.

ROGEN: We actually did. Yes. We did. And then we thought like, whose feelings are we trying to spare by doing that?

COLBERT: Right.

ROGEN: Kim Jong-un? (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So the real question is what were they thinking? And we're going to answer that coming back.

Gentlemen, stay with me.

When we come right back I want to turn to the other big story tonight. The story opening of Cuba's doors to America for the first time in 50 years. How did President Obama hammer out a deal behind closed doors and at the White House?

And how are people reacting in the Miami neighborhood of little Havana tonight? Chris Cuomo is there.

Hi, Chris.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Back now with Jay Carney and Carl Bernstein.

So, to Carl, to your point, what were they thinking? Sony?

BERNSTEIN: I don't know. I don't know what they were thinking. It seems to me we've had China or Russia made a movie that its big studio put out a movie that showed Obama's head exploding and his guts flying out. I think that it would have been kind of reprehensible all the way that we would view it. I just think it shows great, great judgment, I certainly believe in their right to do it, and that's part of the difficulty here.

LEMON: Jay?

CARNEY: I think that...

BERNSTEIN: We need to uphold their right.

CARNEY: I think the Sony is clearly on its heels, they've been, you know, laid to waste digitally by this hacker attack. A lot of embarrassing information has come out. And I just think, they must have decided that the risk of some kind of attack while viewers were watching their movie was too great for them to bear. But I think they made a big mistake.

LEMON: Alright. Let's not -- thank you, guys. Standby, I want to turn now to this historic deal to open Cuba's doors to Americans for the first time, in 50 years. Not everybody is cheering about this so. Cuban-Americans in particular are divided on this news. CNN's Chris Cuomo, live for us in the Miami neighborhood of little Havana tonight. Chris, what's the reaction?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN NEWS ANCHOR: Alright. So, Don. This is the scene done here in little Havana. But, take it the right way. This is what happens when there are big announcements about what's going to happen with U.S.-Cuban relations. Are the Cuban community comes here at Versailles cafe to this all very well known in the area, and there's a reason -- Jerry, turn around, we'll show you. You see this Don? This is called the La Pena del Versailles this is the outcropping of Versailles. This all says the sign here this is where the Cuban community comes to remember what was taken from them and how they're able to not live with freedom as Cubans back home and they come here to discuss it. So here's what's different tonight. You see this man here, with the flag on. This is, this is, what you've been usually see. He is saying that he likes what's happening with removing of the sanctions through Obama -- what's happening? They're saying his not Cuban, he's Spanish and that is creating conflict here. Because, the old guard and the Cuban community feels that anything you do to relax any of the tension on the Cuban government is a mistake for the people there who need help the most. And this has been going on, it's -- a familiar dynamic here. It's a little different that you have someone with an opposing view that's getting us much attention. But, this is what happens, people come here to express how they feel, and there is much ingrained doubt and anger about what will happen when things are relaxed on a Cuban government. And that's the big concern, Don, no matter how you -- who you speak to. This is a metaphor of where the hearts and minds of the Cuban community here and elsewhere in the United States. Everybody wants something better for Cuba, no matter who you speak to. But it's how do you achieve that and if you do things for the government in Cuba. Is that the same thing as doing things for the people in Cuba, it's a lot of doubt about that. So, what President Obama announced today is going to be controversial, not because of its go, but because of the means, Don, and that's we're going to see how it plays out. To be sure, this is just the beginning of seeing what can be improved of anything, with relations between the U.S. and Cuba and for the people who matter most, the poor people in Cuba were being oppressed.

LEMON: Just the beginning. Thank you very much, Chris Cuomo, little Havana in Miami. What does this mean for the country? And how did President Obama hammer out the deal, back with me now, CNN Political Commentators, Carl Bernstein and Jay Carney. So Jay, I want you to listen to what the president said back in 2007. Candidate -- Senate presidential debate when he was asked if he would be open to meeting with leaders from countries like Cuba, watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I would --

and the reason is this, that the notion that somehow not talking to countries is punishment to them. Which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration is ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: So Jay, in October, in a piece entitled, Obama should end the

embargo in Cuba. The New York Times editorial board wrote the following -- it's said, giving the many crisis around the world, the White House may want to avoid a major shift in Cuba policy yet, engaging with Cuba and starting to unlock the potential of its citizens could end up being among the administration's most consequential foreign policy legacy. Normalizing relations with Havana, would improve Washington's relationship with government and Latin America and resolve and irritant that has time (ph) initiatives in that hemisphere. So then, I'm referring to the summit of America's which is in Panama City, Panama on April. To which Cuba has been invited, the times went on and say, the Obama administration is leery of Cuba's presence at the meeting and Mr. Obama has not committed to attending -- he must, and he should see it as an opportunity to make history. So I want you to -- I'm wondering if this is an opportunity to make history. Take us inside the White House. How long has this been in the works? Do you -- did you know about this?

CARNEY: Well, I did. I knew that this was under way. I didn't know all details about the negotiations in Canada but I certainly knew that President Obama had as a goal, improved relations with Cuba, and he also had as a goal the return of Alan Gross, which is a very important piece of this -- announcement today. As he said it when he was a candidate, he believed then and he believes now that our policy of 50 years, hasn't worked. When I hear critics of this decision say -- that we shouldn't normalize relations with Cuba because the Cuban regime, the Castro regime is reprehensible and abusive -- that would suggests that we shouldn't have normalized relations with a host of countries around the world. We had normalized relations with the Soviet Union. We have normalized relationship with other communist countries in the soviet bloc and it is clear that what has -- what we have had in place for the past half century simply hasn't worked. It hasn't brought down the Castro regime. It hasn't liberated the Cuban people. And I think the president believes very strongly that this approach in the end will be better for democracy and for economic progress in Cuba than the approach of the United States has taken for the past half century.

LEMON: So then -- what about the timing here, Carl, day after the story, called between President Obama cue and President Raul Castro. What's the significance of all this?

BERNSTEIN: I think this is a huge deal. It's on a scale not quite like Nixon in China, but it comes close. It's a huge deal for the foreign policy of the United States, for the countries and the Americas sends a great signal. It shows that Obama is still very much an active presidency with a lot of power. It's about the Vatican as well, which helped broker this deal, it's 50 years, it's long overdue. It's -- going to go towards Obama's legacy, and finally the timing of it. Obviously, it has to do with the political calendar as well, in some ways because it's a little bit safer now to do. But that doesn't mean it is a cynical act. It's an act of some real courage -- I would say, and one that it is going to probably brings great results particularly, as the Cuban people. Like the people of the former communist empire learn more about America, see our popular culture, watch our television shows, hear our music, we have great power and now we're going to exercise it in a sensible way.

LEMON: Not quite Nixon goes to China. I have few second left here, Jay, you want to respond to that?

CARNEY: Well, I want to add that it's really important to understand that even in the Cuban-American community, especially in Miami where I once worked for Miami Herald -- the Time Magazine, views on this are very divided, and it divided generally -- generationally. Most young Cuban-Americans support normalized relations. It is the older generation with unbelievably raw wounds from what happened to them when they had to flee the country after -- Castro came to power. Who, who have the sort of older generation's view of this which is to maintain the isolation, maintain the pressure on the regime. What is happened is the years have passed is more and more Cuban-Americans want to see a different approach, and I think they will support this -- decision the president has the made.

LEMON: Carl, I'm going to on a little bit longer here because I think it's important to point out the pope's role in this, writing letters to both leaders. How much of an influence did the pope have?

BERNSTEIN: I think he had a lot and he is taken up the mantel of John Paul II, I wrote a biography of John Paul II, it really it's about this great geopolitical as well as spiritual pope, who was John Paul II and now we see Pope Francis acting in the geopolitical realm, but also bringing spiritual principles to it. He is unquestionably, one of the great leaders in the world if not the pre-eminent leader morally and ethically in the world today. And this a continuation of what we've been seeing in his papacy which holds great promise and great import for, for where we are going, and a new ways -- a new way of finding some common ground through his intercession.

CARNEY: If I could add Don, I was with the president when he had and audience with his holiness in Rome earlier this year. And -- he was profoundly struck by the pope's decency, his humanity and his humility. But also the sophistication of his views, and really believed that he had...

BERNSTEIN: That's right.

CARNEY: A meeting with a great leader when he left the...

LEMON: Is the...

CARNEY: Vatican.

LEMON: Is the pope new the leader of the free world? Should we send them -- I heard someone say on our air today, we should him to -- the Middle East? To try to solve that situation?

CARNEY: Well --

BERNSTEIN: I wouldn't use the word --

CARNEY: I'm not sure...

BERNSTEIN: But sorry...

CARNEY: Yes.

BERNSTEIN: I wouldn't use the word, just free world. I think it goes beyond that, Jay, what do you think?

CARNEY: Well, I think he is a great leader and he has -- the capacity...

LEMON: Capacity.

CARNEY: To do great things and I think he already has taken significant steps in the lot of arenas.

LEMON: Yeah. My producer is saying, we're two minutes over. Thank you, fascinating conversation.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Appreciate both you, Gentlemen. Have a good night. When we come right back, two people who couldn't disagree more on restoring relations with Cuba, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: There's no question, restoring relations with Cuba after 50 years is historic. But, is it good for America? Joining me now, Michael Smerconish, CNN political commentator and host of CNN's Smerconish and Ana Navarro, CNN political commentator and a -- I've seen you everywhere today, you actually think that the thawing out of U.S.-Cuba relationship is a bad idea, why is that?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Because, it is a -- a symbolic victory for the Castro regime at a moment when they are so close to coming to an end anyways. I mean, if for no other reason, the calendar. I think it's interesting that we haven't seen Fidel Castro at all -- today and it's probably because, he is either -- you know, a corpse or close to being one or if he is a life he is senile and incapable of being on TV crawling (ph) about it. But I think that's the reason, I think, you know, A lot of us feel we are -- so close, so much closer, 55 years closer than it was at the beginning and now, is when we are going to change this unilaterally, which seems to make no sense.

LEMON: Michael as you said if not for anything but the calendar. Meaning, timing here, you have been calling for the end of the U.S. embargo on Cuba for years now. In 2002, you covered a meeting between Senator Arlen Specter and Fidel Castro, and you were -- in Castro's company for seven straight hours. Tell us about that and what you think about today's news?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR, SMERCONISH: What I most remember about being in his company is thinking what would be best for the Cuban people is if this guy were no longer the leader of this island nation. And the question becomes, what's the best way to get rid of -- not only he and not only his brother, but also those who surround him -- I think there's a perception because we remember the Soviet Union of communism being an old man's game. And what stands out in my mind, Don, is that I'm on the Cuban side of the table, when the meetings took place, you had Fidel Castro but you have a whole host of young -- they almost look line congressional aides that you would see in Washington D.C. And the message to me was that when the Castro's are gone, there will still be others here, who seek to implement their vision. Like Ana, I want them out. I just think that the best way, to get them all out is to give him a little taste of capitalism and to end this 50 years charade.

LEMON: Why did you say that Castro did not stay in power, despite the American embargo, he survived because of it. SMERCONISH: Because, it gives him, you know when you, when you drive

the streets of Havana. There's abject poverty and it's so crazy, it's like a scene right out of the Godfather, where the automobiles are these soviet era cars or -- they must have the best mechanics in the world. Because there are 1950s automobiles still being driven in Havana, the quality of life is terrible. But, it gives him and his brother now the opportunity to blame everything that goes wrong in their society on the embargo. We've become the bogeyman and I think it's kept them in power. It hasn't harmed their power.

LEMON: OK. I want to play this for you and -- Marco Rubio, Senator Marco Rubio said this today you know him. So, let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MARCO RUBIO, SENATOR: This policy contradiction is absurd -- and it is

disgraceful for a president who claims to treasure human rights and human freedom. This president is the single worst negotiator we've had in the White House in my life time. Who has basically given the Cuban government everything it asked for -- and received no assurances of any advances in democracy and freedom in return.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: His parents are Cuban immigrants. Do you know where he is

coming from with that?

NAVARRO: Personal pain. And I think it is important for people to remember that, Don. This is a community that has felt a lot of personal pain. It's not the same to read a history book about Cuba than it is to hear those painful stories from your parents and your grandparents. That I can tell you that, Marco Rubio's father died without being able to go back to Cuba. (inaudible) parents die without being able to go back in Cuba. And there are so many people here who have died waiting for the freedom of Cuba, waiting for the dictators to die, waiting for the collapse of that oppressive regime. There are people here who served in jail in political prison in Cuba for 30-plus years. There are people here who are the children of folks that died in firing squad in Cuba, shot down by the dictators and their cronies. So, -- you know, when you guys look at reaction in Miami, just remember that this is a community that has suffered for many years.

LEMON: Yeah.

NAVARRO: We have seen rafters die. We have seen people come to our shores, half dead. You know, for 55 years.

LEMON: It's fairly...

NAVARRO: These are not good guys.

LEMON: Yeah.

NAVARRO: We have just negotiated in a peace with tyrants, tyrants who have been around for 55 years.

LEMON: It's very personal for specifically for Cuban-Americans in Miami. Thank you very much, Ana Navarro, Michael Smerconish. We've got a lot more to come on the Cuba deal and on the Sony hack attack. Next, a man who has seen it all when it comes to the world's hot spots, Mr. Dan rather is here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The Sony hack attack, the deal to restore relations with Cuba. Here now, to weigh in on tonight's big story's Dan rather, anchor and managing editor of Access TV's, Dan Rather Reports -- never would have thought in a million years I would be sitting across from you.

DAN RATHER, FORMER CBS NEWS ANCHOR: Thank you very much for having me here tonight.

LEMON: Thank you, thank you very much. So, let's talk about the two big huge stories right now, hacking and Cuba. What is your opinion, what's the bigger story here?

RATHER: In my newspaper headline, or my evening news broadcast, it's a twin lead -- and by the way, what a terrific news today, what a news day.

LEMON: Right.

RATHER: The story in Russia -- hasn't gotten much play because of what happened with the cyber attacks...

LEMON: Right.

RATHER: And the change in policy. Cuba is a huge story with potentially far reaching consequences for everybody in the world. But in answer to your question, I think because there were developments tonight on the North Korea story, that it will edge the President Obama changes policy with Cuba. But in my head, journalistic mind and heart -- is a twin lead.

LEMON: It's a twin lead. So, do you think it was a big mistake? Do you think by pulling this movie, or did the studios bow to the enemy therefore, America bows to the enemy or to terrorism?

RATHER: Well certainly the studios bowed to the enemy. One could argue and I've heard the arguments you had on this program, why Sony felt that they had to do it, why the movie theaters had to pull it. But, anyway you cut it, the bottom line is, -- they caved. Now, you can argue that they had to and it was justified. The country has the not -- at least not yet, caved. This is a situation of number one, we have to respond as a country. Number two, we need to make certain that our evidence that, the North Koreans are responsible for this. If that is, absolutely, solid, stone, cold. We have learned in the past sometimes when our government believes to be true, the evidence turns out to be shaky. But let's assume for the moment, that the evidence is unshakable, that the evidence is clear that North Koreans did this. We're -- somewhat limited in what we do but to respond I think we must. But we must respond in our own time, in our own way. We choose the time and place to respond, it's not a time to say we have to do something snap judgment in the next few hours and the next few days. It will be interesting to see what the President Obama's of what he does over the next few days because, each day he lets it stand, the appearance -- at least the appearance and the perception of it is that we backed down.

LEMON: Capitulated.

RATHER: Yes. But we -- we're Americans.

LEMON: Right.

RATHER: We are a people. We are a country. Where we pride ourselves in saying, as our forefathers and foremothers did. That cowardice is not the American territory. (ph)

LEMON: Can we talk about Cuba now? You interviews -- do you remember how many times you interviewed Fidel Castro, number of times?

RATHER: At least seven times. At least four times on camera.

LEMON: Well, this one time I want to play is 1995, he's making a rare appearance in the U.S. and at the U.N., let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, are you unalterably opposed to

capitalism in Cuba?

FIDEL CASTRO, FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF CUBA (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): I think our country would never go back to capitalism. At least today, in these days in that could people that I know, are people do not want capitalism.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: There was a lot of hope when he relinquished power that there

would be more openness in Cuba and right it didn't really happen. What do you think -- the greater meaning, greater effect that this will have on Cuba's government if any, what happened today?

RATHER: Well, I think what happened today -- first and foremost it helps the Cuban people and that should not be forgotten. Let me say, I fully understand the raw still open wounds of the older generation of Cubans who come to this country, and I understand that. And this makes it very difficult for us as a country to make this change. But, we have to keep in mind, it seems to me -- let me suggest to keep in mind. This will help the Cuban people. The Cubans are a great people, they've been so much propaganda in every direction over the years, we tend to forget this. The Cubans are great people, that people -- they're hard working and decently -- this will initially help them economically, now.

LEMON: Should the president visit?

RATHER: That's up to him. If I were he -- I wouldn't. But, he makes his own decisions. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes, he could make the argument. Listen, if President Nixon can go to China, a foreign policy bombshell on a much bigger scale, than he can go to Cuba. But that's a call for him to make. And I think the important thing is, we have to see what was set in motion today, helps the cause of freedom in Cuba. But it will help the people economically.

LEMON: Thank you. Stick around. Don't go anywhere.

RATHER: Sure.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Well, that will do it, for us tonight. How did you sign off?

RATHER: On my best days I sign off with courage.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: That was your sign off? What is this? Just courage? Alright. I will see you back here tomorrow night. I really appreciate you joining us and this is an honor from me to be with Mr. Dan Rather.

RATHER: Thank you very much for the time. AC360 starts, right now.