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NEW DAY

CIA Chief Defends Agency Following Report; Monster Storm Slams West Coast; House Narrowly Avoids Government Shutdown

Aired December 12, 2014 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there's more than enough transparency, I think it's over the top.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: The CIA fires back, the nation's top spy defending the harsh interrogation tactics used after 9/11. Conceding it is unknowable if they resulted in any useful leads. New information about what heads may roll as a result.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And after dramatic standoff, the House narrowly passed a spending bill to keep the government open this morning. Republicans already flexing their political muscle as the battle over immigration heats up.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Bill Cosby drugged me. That's what famed supermodel, Beverly Johnson, says the embattled comedian did to her in the '80s. She joins a crowd of people making disturbing allegations. Could this be the tipping point?

CUOMO: Your NEW DAY starts right now.

Good morning. Welcome to NEW DAY. It's Friday, December 12th, just before 6:00 in the east. Chris Cuomo and Alisyn Camerota here. The CIA chief says it's time to move on, but he's getting plenty of push- back.

It's not clear who knew what was being done to detainees and why we still don't know. John Brennan, however, won't use the word "torture" when he's discussing this. And he proposed reforms, saying this is what we should do and even those were rejected by many.

CAMEROTA: So many interesting conversations this morning. Brennan's future and the future of the agency is now in doubt. This as one of Brennan's predecessors coming out swinging with a full-throated defense of the CIA.

So is it time to reassess what the U.S. considers torture? And will the Obama administration's drone program receive equal scrutiny? We've got all of these angles covered this morning, beginning with senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta. Jim, what's the latest?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

That's right. CIA Director John Brennan conceded the agency made mistakes in using those harsh interrogation techniques, but he also defended those methods, saying they provided useful intelligence, a view the president does not share.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA (voice-over): The only thing more rare than a news conference held inside the CIA was the admission from the agency's director, John Brennan, that terror detainees swept up after 9/11 were abused.

JOHN BRENNAN, CIA DIRECTOR: In a limited number of cases, agency officers used interrogation techniques that had not been authorized, were abhorrent and rightly should be repudiated by all.

ACOSTA: But Brennan would not call it torture.

BRENNAN: I would leave to others how they might want to label those activities.

ACOSTA: Brennan's explanation: the CIA was not ready after 9/11.

BRENNAN: The program was uncharted territory for the CIA, and we were not prepared.

ACOSTA: And he maintained the agency's enhanced interrogation techniques or EITs produced intelligence, even though he conceded it was unknowable if the same results were obtainable without harsh methods.

BRENNAN: It is our considered view that the detainees who were subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques provided information that was useful and was used in the ultimate operation to go against bin Laden.

ACOSTA: That's in sharp contrast to the torture report from Democratic Senate Intelligence Committee chair, Dianne Feinstein. She responded to Brennan in a tweet that critical intelligence that led to bin Laden was unrelated to EITs, but former CIA officials insist they were doing what was necessary to stop more attacks on the U.S.

BILL HARLOW, FORMER CIA SPOKESPERSON: We didn't have the luxury of time. We had a ticking time bomb situation.

ACOSTA: On THE LEAD, former CIA director Michael Hayden defended the forced rectal feeding of detainees.

MICHAEL HAYDEN, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: They had limited options in which to go do this. It was intravenous, with needles, which would be dangerous with a non-cooperative detainee. It was through the nasal passages.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Pureeing hummus and pine nuts and...

HAYDEN: Jake, I'm not a doctor and neither are you, but what I am told is this is one of the ways that the body is rehydrated. These were medical procedures. And to give you a sense...

TAPPER: You're really defending rectal rehydration?

HAYDEN: What I'm defending is history. To give you a sense as to how this report was put together, this activity, which was done five times, in each time for the health of the detainee, not part of the interrogation program. Not designed to soften him up for any questioning.

TAPPER: Critics of the torture report asked what's the difference between harsh interrogations under President Bush and classified drone attacks under President Obama? One intelligence committee member insisted the drone program is legal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe that the CIA is acting within the law in the intentions right now. That's as far as I want to go.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: And all of these attacks on the CIA prompted a spirited defense from former president George H.W. Bush, who said in a statement last night, he felt compelled to reiterate his confidence in the men and women who worked there. Of course, George H.W. Bush was not only the director of the CIA, the building is named after him -- Chris.

ACOSTA: All right, Jim, this is not getting better yet in terms of the consensus of what was done and why. And until we have that, we really can't figure out how to move forward.

Let's bring in Christiane Amanpour. She's CNN's chief international correspondent. She joins us now from London.

Christiane, not only are you very well-versed in this type of interrogation and what happens around the world, but you also talked to somebody who's very key in our analysis. But let's just discuss for a second how rare this situation is that's going on. Not the torture. That we're getting inside the CIA, that they're having to come out and explain themselves. They're giving a press conference, although even that was weird. Did you hear that they were making reporters surrender their phones and other recording devices before they went in? I mean, what do you make of this kind of exposure that we're seeing right now?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is unique exposure. Obviously, we don't get that kind of thing around the world, even in our democracies here in western Europe.

Just a note: the British government did confirm that they had been notified by Director Brennan, people had been notified that this report was going to come out.

So yes, we don't get to see this kind of transparency. Really, the question is going forward, what this means. Does it have any repercussions overseas? You know a lot of overseas countries have been implicated in that they were the host to some of the black sites where some of this went on. Allies of the United States. Not just in Europe, but also in places like Egypt and elsewhere.

And the other thing is, does the CIA put a full stop on this and move forward?

CUOMO: Right.

AMANPOUR: And of course, I've asked many people about that.

CUOMO: And you really put your finger right on it there. Because there's so much double-speak going on right now. Who knew? Who didn't know? What was it, what it wasn't. Mr. Brennan wouldn't use the word "torture" yesterday, although it seems to fit every definition of torture you can find.

And when you have that going back and forth, it doesn't allow you to move forward. Now, you spoke to Alberto Mora, the former general counsel of the Navy. He is one of these people who are coming out now in a key position who are saying, "We knew what was going on, and we were trying to stop it." Let's listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALBERTO MORA, FORMER GENERAL COUNSEL, U.S. NAVY: Unless the director is able to understand what the law and our values categorize this behavior as, then he's going to have to be told or we're going to have to find a new director in order to lead this agency, because we need to be very clear about what the law and our principles require and how we classify these activities going forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Now look, it's a very strong statement from Mr. Mora. But do you really believe that there's a gray area here? Do you really believe that this was about people, the CIA, not understanding what torture was and wasn't?

AMANPOUR: No. Look, the report clearly states that there were many in the CIA who, in the midst of administering this torture -- they call it enhanced interrogation techniques -- were very, very concerned about it. And raised those concerns with their superiors. And according to the report, the superiors told them to just carry on in many of these cases.

Alberto Mora, it needs to be recognized, was the very first American official to stand up and reject and resist this kind of technique. And he did that in 2002.

And what he told me is incredibly significant. When he took his concerns about this torture to the military brass -- that means the uniformed military; it means the lawyers, the legal part of the military -- they agreed with him, and they said this should not be happening. It doesn't produce any valuable information. And not only that, it doesn't go with the values of our nation. It shouldn't be happening. They agreed with his assessment.

CUOMO: Right. AMANPOUR: This is in 2002. But the civilians ignored that. And then came the torture memos, which so-called legalized this.

CUOMO: Right. The only way this works, this type of disclosure in the name of transparency, is if you own it, own what it was, and own what the change is. That doesn't seem to be being done effectively now because of this parsing of the word "torture." So is this working as a form of transparency by the U.S., or is it just hurting their reputation?

AMANPOUR: Well, look, I think there are many reasons why Director Brennan may not have used that precise word. I spoke to the senior U.N. rapporteur on this, who by the way, says that what happened is, quote, "a criminal conspiracy." And that all of those, not just the practitioners, but those who authorized and directed this program are subject to prosecution under international law.

And he pointed out that in Italy, 22 CIA officials have in absentia been convicted and sentenced to long prison terms because of a rendition of an Italian Egyptian who was taken to Cairo and tortured there.

So it is very, very grave matter of legal precedence. But perhaps Brennan was not using the word "torture," because he didn't want other people in the CIA, the troops, you know, to have their morale further damaged.

CUOMO: Well, he would also be exposing himself -- he'd be exposing himself to criminal responsibility, also.

AMANPOUR: Well, I asked...

CUOMO: Because if you use the word "torture," then you're -- you know, the torture is illegal.

AMANPOUR: Well, you're absolutely right. It is illegal. And the United States is signatory to the anti-torture convention.

However, I asked about that to this legal expert, and he said, "Look, the president has already used the word 'torture.' We know that it's torture. That's not the issue." He thought it was -- and this is a top legal expert, that it was an esprit de corps issue. But again, I'm not the legal expert. That's what he believed. But...

CUOMO: Right. Right, but the president can use it, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: ... remember, Brennan said...

CUOMO: The president can use it because he is not in the line of accountability for having done it. You know what I mean?

AMANPOUR: That's -- that's true.

CUOMO: Let me ask you something. So if what you're saying is true about the magistrate in international law, quickly on this, does that mean that Vice President Dick Cheney, if he were, like, vacationing in Paris, may be at risk of getting picked up for a criminal action?

AMANPOUR; Well, look, all I can say is if he's named in that report, they say yes, and I spoke to the former chief prosecutor at Guantanamo, who said that he would recommend anybody named in this report to, quote, "vacation domestically."

CUOMO: Wow.

AMANPOUR: Yes, wow.

CUOMO: Christiane Amanpour, thank you very much for nailing down this important interview and helping us shape some perspective on this. The conversation has to continue. You have a great weekend.

Michaela, imagine that. I wonder if they knew that there was this kind of implication when they put out the report?

PEREIRA: Yes, I know. One of them said, "I think I'll vacation at Yellowstone."

All right, Chris, thanks so much.

Let's take a look at these headlines, nine minutes past the hour.

Congress narrowly averted a government shutdown following a long day of drama and discord on Capitol Hill. The House approved a $1.1 trillion spending bill that will keep the government open through September. The move happened despite strong objections from Democrats. The bill is now in the hands of the Senate, which has two days to approve it. Of course we'll have more on this coming up in just a few minutes' time.

Another Cosby accuser coming forward. This time, it is 1970s supermodel Beverly Johnson. In an essay for "Vanity Fair," she says that Cosby drugged a cappuccino he made for her at his home during a read-through for a role on "The Cosby Show." Johnson said she knew quickly that she had been drugged and began to curse at Cosby. Allegedly, he responded by throwing her out of his home into a cab.

CNN has reached out to Cosby's attorney. We have not heard back. Beverly Johnson is going to join us live this morning during the 8 a.m. hour of NEW DAY.

A powerful statement from black congressional staffers and lawmakers. About 100 of them walked out of Congress, raised their hands in a sign of support for the families of Michael Brown and Eric Garner. Senate chaplain Barry Black led the group in prayer, saying they were working as a, quote, "voice for the voiceless."

Attorney General Eric Holder is heading to Chicago today for community meetings as part of his efforts to improve police and community relations following the unrest in Ferguson.

Let me ask you guys: Do you feel a bit of a chill in the air?

CUOMO: Never between you two. PEREIRA: Look at this. That's Sony exec Amy Pascal trying to embrace

Angelina Jolie.

CUOMO: Uh-oh.

PEREIRA: Feel the chill now? You can see the actress not feeling it.

CUOMO: That's the stink eye.

PEREIRA: Pascal was part of that leaked email exchange between Sony execs where Jolie was called a, quote, "minimally talented spoiled brat." Methinks it twas an awkward conversation.

We're going to discuss how Hollywood is handling this embarrassing scandal throughout the show, so stick with us.

CAMEROTA: That's two stink eyes.

CUOMO: That was the stink eye.

PEREIRA: Full on. Full frontal stink eye.

CAMEROTA: Full stink.

CUOMO: Is that -- isn't she supposed to be angry at Scott Rudin?

PEREIRA: Well, I think they both were part of the conversation.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

PEREIRA: It's not like she was defended.

CAMEROTA: Yes, good point.

PEREIRA: In the email exchange.

CUOMO: She did not look happy in that one.

CAMEROTA: No.

PEREIRA: I think she's generally probably not happy.

CUOMO: She wasn't looking at me like that, though. I'll tell you that right now.

CAMEROTA: They had a moment.

PEREIRA: You fed the beast.

CAMEROTA: But it's true. They had a moment.

We'll get into all of that coming up.

Meanwhile, another story to tell you about, because the West Coast is reeling from this powerful and deadly storm. Ferocious hurricane- force winds, heavy rain and hundreds of thousands of power outages slamming California and Oregon. Falling trees caused two deaths in Oregon. One of the victims was a teenaged boy. He was in a car when the tree came down. The storm being blamed for blowing out windows in downtown Portland.

So much rain has fallen in California, this one storm may erase three years of drought there. That's the good news, but there's lots of bad news, and Dan Simon joins us live from San Francisco with the latest.

How is it looking, Dan?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Alisyn.

With widespread power outages and flooded roadways, this is a storm that certainly lived up to its billing. Now city agencies are scrambling to try to get neighborhoods cleaned up.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SIMON (voice-over): A deadly monster storm battering the West Coast. Ferocious winds and torrential rain bearing down on residents, leaving more than 225,000 people without power from San Francisco to the Canadian border.

In Oregon, the storm turning deadly, with record-breaking wind gusts, fallen trees claiming at least two lives. The powerful winds of nearly 70 miles per hour, blowing at giant sheet of metal into the windows of this office building in downtown Portland.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was like being in a tornado. It was such a big piece of metal, and it was going so fast -- I thought, you know, this may be the last moment.

SIMON: Strong winds also to blame for this partial roof collapse further north.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not sure if I've ever seen anything like this before. It's pretty unbelievable.

SIMON: The same storm destroying a few homes in Washington state. The rising tide eroding beaches, leaving more in peril.

In California, hurricane-force winds shaking area bridges and knocking over trees, including this 80-foot cypress tree that pinned a boy on a school playground in Santa Cruz. Firefighters freed the 11-year-old, escaping with just minor injuries.

Nearly a foot of rain drenching parts of the drought-stricken Golden State, causing streets to flood and rivers to rise.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This amount of rain in a short period of time, anything can happen.

SIMON: This grocery store parking lot looking like a lake, while Lake Tahoe looked more like a beach. The gusty winds providing daring surfers with huge waves. Entire neighborhoods under water. Many residents stranded on washed-

out roadways, while other thoroughfares closed completely. Public transit shut down.

Further north, heavy snow and fierce winds creating blizzard conditions in the Sierra Nevadas, a possible three feet of snow on the horizon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIMON: Well, conditions are slowly improving as the storm pushes south. But utility crews still have a lot of work to do at last check. A quarter of a million people still without power on the West Coast -- Chris and Alisyn, back to you.

CAMEROTA: They're going to be busy this morning. Dan Simon, thanks so much.

CUOMO: All right. Let's figure out why from the meteorological perspective. Let's bring in Chad Myers. What are you looking at when you see this storm? Is getting better or is it getting worse? What's the timing?

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Getting better for San Francisco, getting worse for L.A. right now, certainly, and the snow is still coming down. Dan said a quarter million people still without power; 300,000 people has already been restored. So that's where they were. They were at half a million people, because petrified forest had over a foot of rain. Here, Lake Sonoma, 7.5 inches of rain there. Wind gusts, Half Moon Bay, almost 60 miles per hour.

But look when you go up in elevation. White Mountain had a wind gust of 139 miles per hour. Mount Lincoln, 135. Even toward Mammoth, over 100 miles per hour up there on top of that mountain.

More snow to come, more rain for L.A.

Cold in the northeast this morning. Cold this afternoon, sunny skies. Good flying, though. Unless you're going through the west or your plane is coming from the west, you should be in good shape. Highs, though, with a windy -- some wind coming down the Hudson. Little Hudson hawk today, 36 for the high in New York City.

Guys, back to you.

CAMEROTA: All right, Chad, thanks so much for that update.

All right. Well, Congress takes the budget battle down to the wire, as usual. The House passed the budget, but the Senate still has to weigh in. So we'll tell you why House Democrats challenged the White House to the brink of a shutdown.

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CUOMO: For all the never again talk, we just barely missed another government shutdown. The House narrowly approved a $1.1 trillion to spend for the government going forward. But there are a lot of catches. And this happened literally just hours short of the deadline. The Senate had to give itself a two-day extension to approve the House bill, so it's not done. This is brinksmanship of the worst kind. But it also seems to be the strategy for governing going forward. Really?

Let's discuss, John Avlon, CNN political analyst, editor in chief of the "Daily Beast," and also CNN political commentator, Republican consultant Margaret Hoover. Did we have a birthday?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yesterday.

CAMEROTA: Happy birthday.

CUOMO: Happy birthday.

HOOVER: Yes, 29 for the rest of my life.

CUOMO: I'm surprised that you are lying about your age up. You're only 25 years old.

CAMEROTA: The flatterer.

CUOMO: The problem here is that we're coming into a new mode of leadership. And they seem very intent on using this as a tool, even though they say they will not. Do you think this is the way forward? Do you think we will constantly be in this cycle?

HOOVER: I think that we will see less of this in the next cycle, because Boehner has a larger coalition and, frankly, a larger coalition of moderates to help stave off some of the right-wingers in his coalition now.

What was fascinating to me about this is the new coalition. So you had Michelle Bachmann and Nancy Pelosi coming down on the same side of the vote, and then President Obama and John Boehner on the other side of the vote. What could be precedent here is totally blown-up coalitions in these battles. And you're certainly seeing that beginning with Rand Paul and the national security stuff and the far left, the ACLU civil liberties crowd.

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I'm all for new and interesting coalitions, but this is governing by crisis, this is not governing. In effect, it's brinksmanship. People in Congress cannot get anything done, unless it's at the 11th hour. And then what happens is, is these inexcusable provisions get larded into a spending bill. Give a...

CUOMO: Larded, good word.

AVLON: You know, really offensive stuff.

CAMEROTA: Isn't that what the sticking points were?

AVLON: That was a lot of it. And if you look at the two-party progressive coalition in opposition to this bill, a lot of the common ground, not all of it, was an objection to some of the Wall Street provisions. You know, a group of lobbyists from Citigroup ended up largely putting in their own language inside. You know, if you care about a derivatives and all the things that helped spur the last financial crisis, guess what? We just got more of it. So that was a lot of the anger, righteous anger at this bill.

But the fact that we then came so close to a shutdown after being told we weren't, indicates how little actual power the leaders have on this process. This is chaos.

CAMEROTA: And then we also just keep kicking the can down the road.

AVLON: Yes.

HOOVER: It isn't any way to run a government. I mean, the different departments of government actually need to be able to forecast and plan, right? That you can't -- you can't spend effectively if you don't know what's going to be coming in. So even from a conservative perspective, you want to be able to count on what you're getting so that you can plan, you know, proactively.

So it isn't -- it isn't a way to fund a government. It's not a way to run a country. I -- I hope that, in the next Congress, we see something different. And I think we will, because there is going to be less.

CUOMO: Took care of the fat cats again. You allowed more money to come in with politics. That is disgusting.

AVLON: That's disgusting.

CUOMO: A terrible thing. And they're not even talking about it down there. You know, and it's going to be a problem.

AVLON: Because the perspective is, "Look, man, I just made my donors happy. That insures my re-election. I got more cash to work with. What's the problem?"

I mean, it's that degree of cynicism, that degree of self-interest that's driving the process.

And look, Margaret's right, you know. You have the crazy caucus, the slightly smaller, more suburban Republicans, maybe voices of reason, strengthening Boehner's hand to try to form coalitions right here.

But I understand why progressives in two parties were angry at the Wall Street provisions. Frankly, everyone should have been. The guys who put it in there should be ashamed of themselves. But you're also seeing a more assertive progressive left that's going to be one of the real hallmarks of the coming Congress, the daylight between the Obama administration and the folks on the left in the Democratic Party is an interesting fissure.

CAMEROTA: Quickly, Margaret, let's move onto this very unusual press conference out of the CIA yesterday. What did you think as you listened to John Brennan try to explain or justify the decisions on those torture tactics.

HOOVER: I mean, it's not easy to listen to any of these justifications. I think what the larger question here and part of -- part of this problem is that you had what some say was a pretty partisan report come down. I mean, Dianne Feinstein did this press conference after the election. Only Democrats signed on. Republicans had to issue their own report and get their own coverage.

There's is potentially a real partisan angling here. There's a real question about why they didn't do it before the election. And the truth is if you look at Nate Silver's blog, 538, and you see what Americans think about harsh interrogation tactics over the last five years. Americans, a majority of Americans, more than half of them, are in favor of the use of harsh interrogation tactics in certain circumstances.

CAMEROTA: The end justifies the means, to most people.

HOOVER: Only in certain circumstances, against the backdrop of a place where you're seeing beheadings on television from our, you know, people who actually want to paralyze our liberty.

AVLON: Nobody is arguing at the end of the day that we're sliding into moral equivalence between al Qaeda and ISIS and the United States. The people who are trying to make that point abroad are really people who are trying to hide their own abuses, right? The part of the headline internationally is the United States has admitted to our mistakes.

The problem is the loss of moral authority that comes from these things, these actions that didn't actually produce much significant actionable intelligence. So you know, we can do the partisan angle on this, and we can talk about the divides, but you can't -- you know, sort of ignore the facts or say they don't matter.

CUOMO: My concern with it is that what is happening, the more they talk about this, I think, Alisyn, is you don't know who to trust anymore, because who's lying? Somebody has to be lying. I mean, it's literally like you're looking at two kids and there's one broken vase; and they're both pointing like this. And that is not good with the CIA and the American people.

CAMEROTA: And wasn't it interesting to hear John Brennan answer the question by saying it's unknowable what the intelligence we got, through the harsh tactics, versus the non-harsh; it's unknowable what we would have gotten had we not done them. He admitted it.

AVLON: Yes, but we know there's a moral cost. What we also know is where you stand as a matter of where you sit. And John Brennan's role right now is to defend this institution of the CIA. What he said in the run-up to the campaign and afterwards as an Obama adviser was pretty clearly condemning of these practices.

To hear justice officials say, you know, all of these things that they were doing, that we don't need to repeat, it doesn't meet the definition of torture. It shocks the conscience. AVLON: It does shock the conscience. And the mark of a civilized

society is not coming up with legalistic explanations for why something is not torture.

CUOMO: Button it up, birthday girl.

HOOVER: You know what? When you hear John McCain -- what I always go back to is John McCain, who sat in a prison cell for five years, by the North Vietnamese, say we have every tool in the Army Field Manual to get the intelligence we need from prisoners, that's what I need to hear.

CAMEROTA: That's a good compass.

HOOVER: You think he has any moral authority? I'm willing to go with it.

CAMEROTA: Margaret, John, good to see you.

CUOMO: Good morning, guys.

What do you think? Tweet us, please, @NewDay. Let's continue this conversation.

CAMEROTA: Also, oil prices are dropping fast. They're falling below 60 bucks a barrel for the first time in five years, but is that all good news? It turns out that what's good for your gas tank could actually be bad for the economy. We'll explain why and what it means for your pocketbook.

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