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CNN NEWSROOM

Architect Defends CIA's Interrogations; All London Airspace Closed

Aired December 12, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Back here in California, the miserable conditions come with one positive side effect -- the state in the middle of a record three-year drought can use all the moisture it can get.

What do you make of all this rain?

KIM CHEADLE, SAN FRANCISCO COMMUTER: We need it but I wish it would come more evenly spread out instead of all in one night. We just have to roll with the punches. It will be fine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIMON: Well, this single storm won't get us out of the drought, Carol, but it's going to help. But experts tell us we have to have about five of these major super storms before we eradicate the drought here in California. The bottom line as far as this storm is concerned it is now southern California's problem to deal with. It's moving there very quickly and that area is expected to get a lot of rain throughout the day -- Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Dan Simon reporting live from San Francisco. Thank you.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, it might be the most extreme case of good cop/bad cop ever. We'll talk about the CIA's interrogation techniques next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: If you're headed to Europe, take heed. We have just learned that all London airspace is closed due to a computer failure -- that's according to the European air traffic control network. We understand that the airspace over London will be shut down and that means closed to air traffic until at least 2:00 p.m. Eastern time. Of course they're working on the problem but it's going to take them some time.

We'll keep you posted.

We're also learning more about interrogation methods used by the CIA, including the idea that you have to mentally and physically break down suspected terrorists before you build them up and get information out of them.

Here's how James Mitchell, one of the architects of the CIA's interrogation program, describes it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES MITCHELL, RETIRED AIR FORCE PSYCHOLOGIST: It's a little bit like a good cop/bad cop argument. We have a bad cop and a good cop. The point of the bad cop is to get the bad guy to talk to the good cop. So it's not surprising to me that there's a food fight now because what happened is the Democrats and the committee have gone back and said look, it doesn't look like a lot of stuff was gotten by the bad cop. And the other people are saying no, no, no, no, no, no -- we think the bad cop was necessary to get them to talk to the good cop.

That's the explanation as clear as I can -- as I understand it as a U.S. Citizen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Ok, let's talk about this. I want to bring in former CIA operative and CNN intelligence analyst Bob Baer. Hi, Bob.

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Hi, Carol.

COSTELLO: First of all, what do you know about this James Mitchell?

BAER: James Mitchell was a contractor with the CIA, a psychologist. He was brought in after 9/11 when the decision was made to do hostile interrogations. He's an expert on so-called SERE, and that's military training, where recruits are waterboarded and things like that to show them what it's like. He himself has never done any interrogations.

COSTELLO: Ok, and did the CIA supposedly pay him and his partner $80 million to come up with this plan?

Baer: $81 million -- it seems pretty expensive to me. But this is the whole problem with contracting. The CIA didn't know what it was doing so it went out to look for experts and Mitchell is one of the ones they found.

I think it was a huge mistake because the military itself knows about interrogations and that's the way they should have probably taken this program over in the first place.

COSTELLO: So the "Washington Post" is reporting Mitchell seized on a controversial concept known as "learned helplessness", the idea that a prisoner could be reduced through dehumanizing treatment to utter dependency on his captors. One of the ideas to achieve that, that the CIA eventually rejected, was mock burials. Does this kind of stuff work?

BAER: Carol -- this is just psychological mumbo-jumbo. It doesn't work. You know, the CIA has looked in on interrogations, hostile interrogations over the years in the Middle East, South America and they generally don't work. Waterboarding doesn't work. Breaking somebody down doesn't work. What they tend to do is give false leads and it's not helpful at all, really. And I think yesterday with Brennan, he came out and said it. It's

not knowable whether this program worked. In other words, he says -- Brennan says, I can't tell you whether it was effective or not. If the CIA director can't, it makes me really wonder just how well we were served by this.

COSTELLO: So do you think that this is still going on to a lesser extent?

BAER: I think it's -- we pretty much backed away from it. The CIA used it for five years. It came to the conclusion on its own that it wasn't very helpful. Bin laden was found by classic intelligence sources, intercepts, real human sources and I think the CIA went back to business as usual. I understand why it went down this road but then at the end of the day they figured out it didn't work.

COSTELLO: Bob Baer -- thanks for your insight as usual. I appreciate it.

BAER: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the Newsroom, say good-bye to Stephen Colbert. Well, sort of. He's signing off from his Comedy Central show next week in preparation for his new gig. But can the real Stephen Colbert win them over like the fake newsman did? I should have said Stephen Colbert.

We'll be right back to talk about this next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: All right. Again, to our breaking news -- all London airspace closed right now due to this massive computer failure. Likely the airspace above London will remain closed until at least 2:00 p.m. Eastern time.

Joining me now on the phone, Arthur Rosenberg; he's an aviation analyst. Arthur, have you heard about this.

ARTHUR ROSENBERG, CNN AVIATION ANALYST (via telephone): Yes. Actually, I have, it's -- something like this actually does happen occasionally, it even happens in the United States. And essentially my understanding is that the flight data computers in the radar facility which would be equivalent to our air traffic control in Europe, in London, essentially went down which would mean that the controllers who are giving directions to the commercial airplanes in that airspace are looking at a blank screen. They no longer see the airplanes, their altitude, their speed and their direction. And it's an incredibly obviously unsafe situation and that airspace has just been closed down until they bring the computers back online and ATT's back up.

COSTELLO: What happens to the planes in the air?

ROSENBERG: Well, there's always a backup. The airplanes all have equipment on board, collision avoidance equipment. They're still capable of navigating -- using navigational aids on the ground, GPS, satellite, technology in the air. So everything is safe.

The point of massive congestion would be in the landing environment with these airplanes that have to land in the London -- and that area. They will be diverted to other places in Europe and they'll all make safe landings there.

COSTELLO: We keep talking about how all these computer systems have been hacked. Is that a possibility in this case?

ROSENBERG: I actually haven't heard that. But you know, today's day and age, things being what they are, this is at a bottom a computer system. They are incredibly well protected but any computer system with enough time, effort, and money can be hacked. I would say, you know, yes, that's probably a remote possibility but it's something on the table to be considered.

COSTELLO: All right, Arthur, stand by.

I want to join CNN International now because we have a correspondent speaking there about this closed airspace over London. Let's listen in.

JIM BOULDEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It will be interesting to find out exactly when the last flights were able to take off and whether some of them had to return and then, of course, you have people on their way into London and they will have to find other airports as well to go to. So as I said earlier, people should check if they're flying or going to an airport to get somebody because it's not just going to be London affected because it's such an incredibly crowded airspace. It's so critical for transatlantic flights and for flights into the Middle East and into Africa.

So there is going to doubtless going to be massive reverberations around Europe because of this.

ROBYN CURNOW, ANCHOR, CNN INTERNATIONAL: Jim Boulden, I just want to welcome our viewers in the U.S. who are just joining our international coverage of this map, essentially, that you're seeing there on our screen. All airspace above London airport has been ruled out of bounds. Airplanes are being turned around, not allowed to land at least for the next few hours.

This is due apparently to a technical problem and you can see no planes above the airspace in London. And I think, Jim, just to reiterate which airports are affected because it's not just above London city, essentially. This is above the entire southwest of England, really.

BOULDEN: Yes, we are talking about London Heathrow which, of course, takes an enormous number of flights in and out of the U.S. We're talking about London Gatwick which is an airport that has a lot of tourist flights. We're talking Stansted Airport and we're talking Luton. So we are talking about airlines from British Airways, Virgin Atlantic; you're thinking about American Airlines. You're thinking about United and Delta. All those flights have had to stop either landing in London or taking off from London at least until 2:00 Eastern; so we are talking about a number of hours where one of the world's busiest and most congested areas of flights is now frozen.

There will be no flights in and out of the London region. We're talking about at least five airports, London City Airport as well which takes regional flight, business flights on to the continent. Then you think about all those flights and where they're going to land. The planes that have come from the U.S., they need to go to places like Manchester, Birmingham, Paris, maybe into Amsterdam. They're going to have to go into Cardiff.

So you can imagine not being able to use that airspace. Right now you have an enormous number of controllers who are trying to find places for all these planes to land and then you have all those flights that might delay others taking off.

So anybody who's going to take a flight around this part of Europe I strongly suggest you check before you go. Also you think about flights that simply right now will not take off from the U.S. if they were going to because there will be such a backup -- Robyn.

CURNOW: Ok. And I think just to reiterate, this is apparently a computer failure of the air traffic control system, no doubt. Though there is some frantic organization going on behind the scenes, air traffic controllers trying to reroute all of these planes either supposed to be leaving London airport or flying in.

Just think about how many planes have now had to be diverted midair to another location. This is a massive operation that's going on now.

BOULDEN: Yes, but I want to stress that they are telling us that this is closed due to a computer failure. They're not saying anything more than that. And we have seen -- the NATS (ph) system here in the U.K. have trouble in the past. I can't remember a time when they've closed the airspace for this many hours because of a computer failure. But I don't want to read anything more into that right now.

We want to say that it is a massive computer failure at a system and that's an area called Swanwick. It does control the entire London region, which is a large region with at least five airports and we are talking about not just flights that are coming and going to London. You have a lot of flights that come in here for transfer of passengers. You have planes that come in here to pick people up and take them back over to the U.S. that have come from eastern Europe as well.

And many, many dozens of airlines will be massively affected by this. And this affects -- even if the airports in this region reopen at 2:00 this afternoon Eastern time, 7:00 London time, you can imagine the backup and the chaos that will ensue for many hours to come -- Robyn.

CURNOW: That's about three hours' time. They've got to fix this computer glitch although it's clearly a massive failure.

We're just getting some comments from Heathrow. And I just want to read exactly what they're saying. They're saying quote, "There is a power outage at the NATS control center in Swanwick which is affecting U.K. airspace. Flights are currently experiencing delays. And we will update passengers as soon as we have more information." That's out of London Heathrow.

So there what they're saying there is that there's been a power outage at the main air traffic control center. What do you make of that new information, Jim Boulden?

BOULDEN: Well, it's interesting that it's a power failure. You would really hope there would have been massive number of backups systems in this system. And I'll be really interested to find out why they were unable to have any backup for the computer system. And that's different of course with euro control which is telling us that it's a computer failure.

So we do need to get to the bottom of that power failure that's affecting the computers. Has there been some sort of shortening of the computer system that led to a power outage as well? Nonetheless, they're obviously taking this very seriously in the sense that they want to close the airspace for a number of hours to make sure that they get this system back up and running. They're going to have to test it, of course, Robyn once they even get it back up and running.

I remember during the ash cloud which closed this airspace in 2010, even when they decided it was time to get planes back in the air, they were testing for many, many days in fact before they let passengers back on planes. So I imagine they're going to run, take extreme caution here to make sure the system is up and running, that the computers' back up and running and they can start letting these flights come and go.

I can't stress enough how congested this airspace is over London. Heathrow is always considered to be, if not the busiest international airport in the world, one of the busiest because there's so many passengers that travel through Heathrow in order to get on to other parts of the world. And so the fact that it's closed for at least three hours will have absolute chaos I think for many, many passengers.

COSTELLO: All right, welcome back. I'm Carol Costello. Thanks to Jim Boulden and my colleagues at CNN International.

I want to head to Washington now and check in with Rene Marsh because, of course, the airspace closed over the city of London is going to have ramifications here at U.S. airports as well. Rene, are you there? There you are.

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Carol, I can tell you that this is one big mess that we are watching unfold here. So the situation there in London, within the airspace there in London no doubt will have a ripple effect and we will be impacted here, flights in the United States.

We're talking about an extremely busy airspace. London's Heathrow Airport is a major international hub there. You have lots of flights which will be affected. So we will without a doubt if none of these flights are allowed to land at Heathrow we are going to see that ripple effect. And it could take hours -- it could take days for us to dig out of it. I mean you see what happens when we just have one day of bad weather. But we're talking about a complete shutdown of the airspace there which is, again, I cannot stress how busy this airspace is that we will see the ripple effect.

We have reached out to the FAA. They're just getting reports and processing this information at this point. So no hard numbers as far as what this ripple effect will look like for people here in the United States but it is safe to say that there will be an impact, Carol.

COSTELLO: Officials are saying it's a power failure. Certainly that's unusual, right?

MARSH: You know, we are still trying to get those details as far as what exactly led to this power failure. Obviously this computer equipment that is no longer working at this point is something that is essential to safely spacing out these airlines and aircraft that are coming in to this very busy airport, Heathrow there, essentially to keep them spaced apart. And they are not essentially able to effectively land these planes. So what we're seeing now that there are no takeoffs and we are hearing also no landings happening at one of the busiest airports.

Does this happen a lot? No. Has it happened before? Yes, indeed, it has.

COSTELLO: I heard your phone ring. That's not the FAA, is it?

MARSH: No, it's not, unfortunately. It may be some information related to this story so we will get you the latest as far as the impacts here in the United States as we get more of that -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Well before you go and return that phone call, what do American passengers need to know? What should they do?

MARSH: What you want to do is you want to be in touch with your carrier. You know, if you are expecting a flight you want to check in with your airline to find out what the status is, that is the best thing you can do at this point is just to be in touch with your carrier, to find out if you're impacted and what the impacts may be on your flight if you obviously are waiting for a flight or heading to that area. That is the best information we can give people at this point -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, I'll let you call your source back now. Rene Marsh, thanks very much -- I appreciate it.

MARSH: Sure.

COSTELLO: I'm going to take a break. I'll be back with much more in the newsroom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: All right. Back to our breaking news. All the airspace over London in the U.K. closed to air traffic because of this massive computer failure. Authorities are saying they had this massive power outage and that's basically what caused it. They're frantically trying to fix things right now but all air traffic has stopped over the city of London. Very congested skies because you would have to assume that planes were in the air when the computers failed.

Let's head back to Washington and Rene Marsh, she has more information for us. Tell us more, Rene.

MARSH: Well Carol, all we know is what's being a called computer issue. They have led to essentially a shutdown of the airspace there. You're looking at a snapshot of flightradar24.com. We talked about just how busy this airspace is. Take a look for yourself. I mean you see all of those planes in the air. Again, this is just a snapshot but a snapshot of just a few minutes ago.

With this airspace being shut down, if their destination is London Heathrow Airport, they are zgoing to have to divert. They are not going to be able to land at London Heathrow Airport. When we talk about Heathrow, I mean we know that it is a major international hub. We also know that this airspace is tremendously busy so now you have all of these flights potentially thousands here that have to find some place to go. They will have to diverse.

What's the impact here in the United States? Well, when you talk about such a busy airspace, there's no doubt that we will be impacted. Again, I have reached out to the FAA just to get a better feel as to what they're getting -- what kind of information they're getting about this ripple effect. Still waiting to hear from them but it's a safe bet that when you talk about such a busy airspace here we will see that ripple effect. And it's not something that they will be able to unravel within an hour or two. I mean it could be days.

Keep in mind, Carol, we're talking about a very busy travel season here. This is when things really start to ramp up during this time of the year, planes are usually packed. So when you have those ingredients mixed together this is one nightmare that we are watching unfold right here, Carol.

COSTELLO: As you said, Rene, it's going to have repercussions here at American airports.

I want to head over to the weather center and Chad Myers because he has more on that angle of the story. Hi, Chad.

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Hi, Carol. You know, we have many other airports around the region that can accept some of these airplanes. So I think we're not going to have any planes running out of fuel, no emergency, no one is squawking 7,700 which means emergency. They're still landing planes at Gatwick and there are still other airplanes and other air landing strips around the area.

Now, if you get diverted, it's like when they closed Atlanta because of a thunderstorm, you have to land in Chattanooga or you land in Savannah. I've done it before. And all of a sudden, you sit there on their tarmac and you wait for the airspace to reopen and then you get to where you want to go.

But certainly that ripple effect you're talking about now, the main flying time, I understand it's 11:00 in the morning here but think about the time zones and how they change and how many other airplanes are in the air to London, to Heathrow at this point. They will be diverted to (inaudible), they'll be diverted to Paris and sit there and wait until this airspace opens up.

The good news is at least with the planes that were very close don't have to go very far to Manchester or to Hampshire -- that's where the problem was. They can at least get to Gatwick and they will get those planes to Gatwick in priority order -- almost like a triage. How much fuel do you have Flight 474? I have plenty. Ok, go around again. That's how it's going to work.

COSTELLO: All right. I'm sorry to interrupt you Chad. But I do have some more new information. This is the latest tweet from NATS, the U.K.-based global air traffic management company, to be specific. It's now saying that "Airspace is open but we're restricting traffic volumes in accordance with capability we currently have our in our system." So translate that for us, Rene Marsh.

MARSH: Well, Carol I'm just reading this e-mail with you at this point as well. So let's read this one more time. It says that "The airspace is open but we're restricting traffic volumes in accordance with the capability we currently have in our system." So essentially, you know, again, we looked at those images on our screen there, you see how many airplanes were in the air just minutes ago. You saw that very cluster of yellow mark there. Those are flights that are in the air.

Obviously they're not going to be able to handle the volume of planes that they would handle on any given day. You just heard Chad say there, you know, the airspace not close so meaning you can fly through it. However you may not be able to land at the airport you were destined to go to.

So you will have diversions; so a flight that may have been scheduled to land at Heathrow will not land at Heathrow. It may have to land at a neighboring airport or someplace close by.

So pilots will be able to fly through, again limiting the number of people within a certain area. The key here is making sure these flights are safely spaced apart. You do not want a situation where they can not keep these flights in a very crowded situation safely spaced apart.

So in order to do that you need the slow things down. You can't have too many planes in one area, and that's what it looks like they're trying to do here, Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, Rene Marsh, Chad Myers, thanks to both of you.

Thanks for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"@THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA" starts now.