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CNN NEWSROOM

80 percent of College Rapes not Reported to Police; Senate Report Personal for 9/11 Families

Aired December 11, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Just minutes ago the Justice Department released its report on rape and sexual assault on college-age women. The results -- well they're disturbing to say the least.

For more now I'm joined by CNN justice correspondent Pamela Brown. Give us the numbers.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well Carol, we've been sifting through this report and some of the numbers are really alarming. In fact, one of the things we found in this new study by the Department of Justice is that a scarce number of sexual assaults on college campuses actually get reported to the police. And the report shows that often that is because the victim does not feel comfortable bringing it to the authorities or they feel reprisal from their attackers.

So here are the numbers. According to the Justice Department, 80 percent of these cases -- 80 percent go unreported. And in 80 percent of campus sexual assaults, the victim actually knows the offender.

Another point in this report reveals that 70 percent of sexual assaults happen either at the victim's home or the home of someone that the victim knows. And it's important to point out here that this report found that while rape most often happens to women between the ages of 18 and 24, men are victimized, too. About 70 percent of campus sexual assaults happen to men, according to this new report -- Carol.

COSTELLO: So will anything come of this report as in legislation perhaps?

BROWN: Well, that is the big question. And there have been other reports out there. Of course, the focus really is on this issue right now, especially in the wake of the "Rolling Stone" article. And this is something that Congress has been grappling with. In fact, there were a group of eight bipartisan senators who in July of this year unveiled legislation, proposing to hold colleges more accountable, asking for colleges to hold surveys with their students, for them to report in about if they've had any experience with sexual assault.

So this is something that is in the works right now. And it's clearly an issue that needs to be dealt with and the relationship needs to be strengthened between universities, and authorities and students on this issue -- Carol.

All right. Pamela Brown reporting live -- thanks so much.

The national conversation surrounding sexual assault on campus has taken kind of an ugly turn. It's become this he-said/ she-said, politically tinged fight. I'll give you an example.

In her memoir, Lena Dunham wrote of a conservative man named Barry who assaulted her back in college. He resembles a real life Barry who attended school at the same time and had absolutely nothing to do with Dunham's allegations. Dunham has apologized to the real-life Barry, but others have attacked her credibility calling her narcissistic.

This is what RedState writes this morning, quote, "The idea that there is any risk involved in a woman reporting a sexual assault is simply bullshit on a biscuit. Papers don't report the names of accusers. If there is any risk involved in today's sexual climate it attaches firmly to the man. There is a definite element of me, too-ism in her story. Whether her story actually happened outside of her fevered imagination is another question."

Dunham though stands by her story. She writes on Buzzfeed, quote, "Survivors have the right to tell their stories, to take back control after the ultimate loss of control. There's no right way to survive rape and there's no right way to be a victim. What survivors need more than anything is to be supported, whether they choose to pursue a criminal investigation or to rebuild their world on their own terms. You can help by never defining a survivor by what has been taken away from her. You can help by saying I believe you."

So let's talk about all this with our next guest. Her name is Susan Patton. She's the author of "Marry Smart" and Princeton mom. Susan -- welcome.

SUSAN PATTON, AUTHOR: Thank you -- Carol. Nice to be here.

COSTELLO: We even had an interesting conversation in the break -- right. Ok.

PATTON: Yes, we did. Yes, we did.

COSTELLO: You said that you can't believe that rape could be a difficult thing to talk about. Why do you say that?

PATTON: Well, obviously any discussion about sex is a little bit difficult. It's a topic that requires delicacy and sensitivity obviously. But the issue of rape here has become -- well, firstly, we're talking about nothing but rape on campus it seems like for the last several weeks or months.

But I think what makes this conversation so particularly prickly is the definition of rape. It no longer is when a woman is violated at the point of a gun or knife. We're now talking about -- or identifying as rape what really is a clumsy hookup melodrama or a fumbled attempt at a kiss or a caress.

COSTELLO: You think that's all it is? That's all it is?

PATTON: In many cases that's what it is. And we just heard the statistics. That this is with a friend; this is in your own home.

COSTELLO: Most rapes happen between people who know each other -- whether you're on campus or not.

PATTON: I understand. Again, it makes one wonder, why do you not just get up and leave. Or why do you not as a woman tell a man who is making advances that you're not comfortable with, you know what? Stop and leave. Stop and leave.

COSTELLO: Have you ever talked to a rape victim?

PATTON: Oh, yes, of course.

COSTELLO: What did she tell you?

PATTON: That they're so frazzled and they didn't want him to be mad at her and they didn't want to lose his affection and she really wanted him to take her to the prom.

COSTELLO: And what did you think about her when she told you these things?

PATTON: And I thought well, there's rape and then there's rape.

COSTELLO: So you didn't believe her?

PATTON: Well, I believe that she experienced something that she regretted. I believe that she got very drunk and had sex with a man that she regretted the next morning. To me, that's not a crime, that's not rape. That's a learning experience. That's a learning experience that has to do with making choices and taking responsibility for the choices you make.

COSTELLO: So let me get this straight. If your daughter gets horribly drunk, then if a man takes advantage of her sexually and she's passed out drunk, she doesn't know what's happening, she deserves this somehow because it's a growing up experience?

PATTON: No, of course not. I'm not talking about a woman who is blacked out drunk. But I am most certainly suggesting that women be smart for themselves; remain sober enough to extricate themselves from a situation that's headed in a direction that they're not comfortable with.

COSTELLO: Let me run this by you because I've talked to many rape victims. And it's terribly difficult for them to share their experiences. It's very painful because you've been violated in a very personal way.

PATTON: I'm sure. I don't doubt that for a --

(CROSSTALK)

PATTON: I'm not blaming victims. I'm not blaming victims.

COSTELLO: No, but let me run this by you. I've also talked to rape counselors -- many of them. Like Bobby Zero, she works in Dallas, Texas. She said rape is the only crime in which we turn the lens on to the survivor, the victim and not on to the perpetrator. When someone gets shot, we don't ever ask them why didn't you get away from that bullet?

PATTON: Well, firstly, I disagree with what you're saying. At this point --

COSTELLO: But why is that?

PATTON: Well, because the laws have now been modified that if a young man is --

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: If I'm drunk and someone shoots me, nobody blames me.

PATTON: He's labeled a rapist without even due process. So to say that the all the light is being shown on victims --

COSTELLO: Who is labeled a rapist without due process?

PATTON: Any young man now on any college campus who is accused of having sexually assaulted a woman starts from the position of being guilty until they can prove their own innocence. This is the new way of thinking.

COSTELLO: How is that different from someone committing a robbery?

PATTON: You're not presumed guilty until you're found guilty.

COSTELLO: That's right. You're not presumed guilty until you're in a court of law like who determines this young man is guilty?

PATTON: A court of law.

COSTELLO: Right.

PATTON: But the politically correct thinking at this point, fueled by the antagonistic feminists is that even if there's a whiff of assault, a man is guilty -- guilty, guilty, guilty. It's up to him to prove his own innocence. This is in stark contrast -- it's completely inconsistent with the American -- with the basic fundamentals.

COSTELLO: Ok. Well, let's turn it around. Let's turn it around. What about the young men in these cases? Are they all innocent?

PATTON: Of course not. We're not talking in absolutes.

COSTELLO: No, no -- are they --

PATTON: We're not talking in absolutes.

COSTELLO: But why aren't you talking about them?

PATTON: Talking about teaching them not to rape.

COSTELLO: The boy -- yes.

PATTON: Ok. We can teach burglars not to steal, but better advice -- lock your door. That's smarter advice. You have to take some basic precautionary measures to make sure you're not going to be victimized either personally or in terms of your property.

And I'm telling young women, you have to be smart for yourselves.

COSTELLO: Don't you see that's victim blaming.

PATTON: It's not blaming.

COSTELLO: Let me give you another example. Michelle Knight -- she was kidnapped in Cleveland -- right. There are rape counselors who told me that people blamed her for that.

PATTON: They shouldn't have done that. They shouldn't have done that.

COSTELLO: Who shouldn't have done it?

PATTON: The rape counselors shouldn't have --

COSTELLO: Well, they didn't blame Michelle Knight. Others did for simply walking down the street and getting kidnapped and trusting this man who said she had a puppy --

(CROSSTALK)

PATTON: So clearly --

COSTELLO: -- in the backseat of her car.

PATTON: Clearly that was a situation where a woman was the victim of a violent crime. But so much of what's being reported today and I'm, you know --

COSTELLO: She trusted a stranger.

PATTON: But so much of it --

COSTELLO: I'm just saying you could --

PATTON: Carol, come on. Look at UVA, look at the Duke lacrosse team, look at Dartmouth, go back to Tawana Brawley. There are times when women will say that they've been raped when in fact they haven't been.

COSTELLO: Let's put that in perspective. 4.9 percent -- this is according to a U.S. Justice Department, 4.9 percent of women file false rape allegations.

PATTON: I read 8.3 percent this morning. COSTELLO: It's 4.9.

PATTON: Ok. I read 8.3.

COSTELLO: That's what it is.

PATTON: But whatever it is, there shouldn't be any.

COSTELLO: It's very low -- of course not.

PATTON: The world isn't perfect and women shouldn't get raped obviously and I'm not blaming victims. But when women accuse men of rape when, in fact, it was sort of a fumbled attempt at, you know, when they have what I call regrettable sex, mistake sex.

COSTELLO: Yes, but you're generalizing.

PATTON: So are you.

COSTELLO: No, I'm not. I'm listening to the woman in question and I've got to listen to the man in question. But I'm not sitting here generalizing that all of these sexual assaults that are happening on campus is because some dumb woman got really drunk.

PATTON: I'm not generalizing. I'm not --

COSTELLO: You are.

PATTON: -- no, I'm not. I'm saying women have to be smarter for themselves. One, they have to protect themselves better. The best way to do that is remain sober.

COSTELLO: So it's up to us to protect ourselves against rape? How drunk do you get? Is one drink make you drunk enough?

PATTON: You have to know your own limit. And if you don't know your own limit, smart move, don't drink. You have to take some responsibility for your own safety. How could anybody -- how could anybody think that it's a smart idea to leave your safety up to anybody else? It's not. It's your responsibility to keep yourself safe. If you are the victim of a violent crime, you have to go to the police.

COSTELLO: You know it would be great --

PATTON: And women don't do that.

COSTELLO: Another rape counselor told me this, it would be great if we could sit here and say, if I did this, I would never be raped. If I did that, I would never be raped.

PATTON: There are no absolutes.

COSTELLO: That's right. There are no absolutes. There aren't any.

PATTON: I understand that. I understand that. But we can do certain things to help ourselves.

COSTELLO: You understand but when you say things like that, that those women who are attacked might feel worse. Because there is something they might have done to protect themselves when in actuality sometimes there's nothing.

PATTON: Sometimes there's nothing. Frequently because we know the huge preponderance of these cases of sexual assault happen under drug or alcohol haze. So, yes, is there something you can do to help yourself? Yes. Don't allow yourself to get so drunk or so stoned that you can't make good judgment.

COSTELLO: Well Susan, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. But I will say, if I ever thought that something ugly happened to me, I don't know that I'd come to you.

PATTON: Well, you probably could come to me because I'm a sympathetic ear. But first I would tell you be smarter next time, exercise more self-control next time, use better judgment next time in how you choose your friends.

COSTELLO: And you then want me to go to the police and file charges after you say that to me?

PATTON: I'll tell you why. And I'll tell you why I want you to go to the police. If you were raped, you have to let the police know.

COSTELLO: After you said that to me, I'm not going to the police. Are you kidding?

PATTON: Grow up. Why wouldn't you go to the police? You were attacked. You're a victim of violent crime. Go to the police --

COSTELLO: You just said it was partially my fault because I was drunk.

PATTON: I didn't say it was your fault. I said you could have prevented it. I said there are ways you could have prevented it. But if you're a victim of a violent crime, you go to the police because that's the responsible thing to do to get a rapist off the street. But the problem, of course, is if you were so drunk or so stoned you can't even provide reliable testimony which is another reason why you have to maintain sobriety.

COSTELLO: Well, I will say having talked to many rape victims it's not as easy as that.

PATTON: Nothing is.

COSTELLO: But thank you so much for sharing. Thank you so much for sharing. Susan Patton --

PATTON: Thank you.

COSTELLO: -- I appreciate it. I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: While the details of the so-called torture report sparked fierce debates over what should have been done in the days after 9/11, when asking whether the CIA's actions were justified or if they went too far, it is important not to forget that this fight is deeply personal for one group of people, those who lost loved ones in the attacks on 9/11.

I want to talk about that report with Terry Strada, her husband Tom was killed in the September 11th attacks on the World Trade Center. Welcome back Terry. I'm glad you're here.

TERRY STRADA, HUSBAND WAS KILLED ON 9/11: Thank you. Thanks for having me -- Carol.

COSTELLO: What do you make of this torture report?

STRADA: Well, I have to tell you Carol, what upsets me about it is that our government is focused on what happened after 9/11 when we should be focused more on what happened before 9/11. There is a report that has been classified for 12 years, 28 pages from a joint inquiry into the 9/11 attacks that President Bush classified and we have been fighting for 12 years to get that declassified because it talks about who funded 9/11, who was behind 9/11. Why am I living without a husband? Why are my children living without a father?

We don't address that. We want to talk about what techniques we've used, I'm sorry, until we go back and find out and let the American people know who was behind 9/11, I don't think we're ever going to be safe. I don't think we're ever going to win our war.

COSTELLO: Why don't they want to know that information do you suppose?

STRADA: Well, they do know the information. I'd like to ask Senator Feinstein, why don't you want to release that information to us? We're not alone on this. Senator Bob Graham who was the Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman at the time is with us fighting to get these pages declassified. He actually wrote a portion of the pages. I worked with him. I was on the phone with him on Monday.

We hear that this is coming out. This isn't what we talked about. We talked about what we need our government to do for us now.

There's also a piece of legislation that's sitting in the senate today that could be brought up for a vote. I would like reporters to go down there and ask Congress what's holding this bill up? Why can't we get a bill called the Justice Against Sponsors of Terrorism Act out there and passed so we can go after the people who caused 9/11 so we don't have to deal with this ever again.

COSTELLO: So when you hear this continuing debate about torture in the country now, how does that make you feel?

STRADA: It upsets me because, again, we don't go to the real issue. What torture was -- torture is watching what happened on 9/11. Watching people jump out of the buildings to save themselves, to die as opposed to being burned to death or smoke. I mean the carpet was burning beneath their feet. I had to listen to my husband on the phone when he called me that morning.

Torture is telling your children that their father was killed by terrorists on American soil and that our government isn't standing by our side to help us go after the people that caused it. So I live in a tortured environment. And I don't think pouring water up their nose or letting them walk around naked --

COSTELLO: It doesn't matter to you?

STRADA: -- it doesn't matter to me.

COSTELLO: Do you think we should even be having this debate when it comes to terrorists like these?

STRADA: No, I don't. I don't. Personally I don't think we should. I don't think it should be what our government should be focusing on -- issuing a 500-page report when there are so many other things that are much more important.

COSTELLO: How do you keep up the energy to continue the fight? That's what I always wonder whenever I talk to you.

STRADA: Because I loved my husband dearly. He was a great person. And so were all his friends. You know, we lost everybody -- his entire desk. Carol -- I don't know if you can imagine being home and this place evaporating in one day. Everybody you know and love is gone.

You would stand up and fight, too, for the rest of your life until you get the truth out there. My daughter is here. I fight for her. I fight for my kids. Justin was four days old. He never got to know his dad. His dad didn't get to know him. Tommy went through hell, my seven-year-old. When your kids stop eating and stop drinking and stop sleeping because they can't deal with what happened, you stand up and fight.

COSTELLO: Good for you. Terry Strada, thanks for coming in again. I really appreciate it.

STRADA: Thank you for having me.

COSTELLO: I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: It wasn't a poor little lamb who had lost his way but a pet sheep that went missing. At least Gauge stayed warm until he was back in his family's arms. You can take a Christmas sweater for that. Here's Jeanne Moos.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: If you've ever had an ugly Christmas sweater, join the fans who flocked to this sheep who was found wandering the streets of Omaha, Nebraska and turned over to the Humane Society. Though some might argue his sweater was inhumane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He came in wearing his own wardrobe.

MOOS: The Humane Society posted his picture -- there were theories. Perhaps he'd escaped from a nativity scene. Maybe he was aware that December 12 is national ugly Christmas sweater day. Pleaded one poster, please tell me it isn't a wool sweater. Rest easy it's cotton.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's lovely.

MOOS: Not only is he lovely, he's house broken and has no problem walking on a leash. As the Humane Society was searching for his owner, this post appeared on Facebook. My baby boy Gauge got stolen last night. A friend who saw both posts put them together. Here is the reunion kiss.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My baby.

MOOS: The Vasquez family thinks their six-month-old sheep Gauge escaped through a fence under construction.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As my son -- you know, I consider him as my son. He sleeps with me. He follows me everywhere I go. He's just my baby.

MOOS: Though Margaret's husband sheepishly admits he once regarded Gauge as appetizing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought about eating him a long time ago. My wife is no. I'm like ok -- but then I get attached to him.

MOOS: And to those who say bah-humbug to making a sheep wear a Christmas sweater, wait until you see what Gauge wore for Halloween -- it's enough to give lamb chop nightmares. Meet the zombie sheep.

Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"@THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA" after a break.

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