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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

Seeking Justice; Athletes and Controversy; Interview with NBA Legend Isiah Thomas; Marines on Alert at Embassies Consulates

Aired December 8, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: A mother speaks out as another family's fate and another questionable and fatal police shooting is left in the hands of a grand jury.

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The national lead, police shot and killed her 12-year-old son, all caught on video. She spoke about it publicly today for the first time. But with the grand jury convening to decide if they will send Tamir Rice's shooter to trial, an ex-cop questions whether justice is possible in these kinds of cases.

The sports lead, athletes and controversy. Michael Jordan once explained his refusal to endorse a Democrat by saying, hey, Republicans buy sneakers, too. But after Ferguson and Eric Garner, some athletes say they will not keep quiet any longer about their views on some controversial topics.

Plus, the world lead, two hostages held by al Qaeda in Yemen are dead after a U.S. special forces team failed to get them out in time. One of them was hours from being freed. Hear his heartbreaking story from one of his friends.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We are going to begin today with our national lead and a mother pleading that the Cleveland police officer who shot and killed her unarmed son at the very least face trial. Today, Samaria Rice demanded the officer Timothy Loehmann be charged and convicted for gunning down her 12-year-old Sony, Tamir.

Two weeks and a day ago, the boy was by himself in a gazebo waving around a toy gun that shot only plastic pellets. Then two police officers pulled alongside and with scarcely any time for any sort of warnings, officer Loehmann shot and killed the sixth-grader, all of it captured on horrifying video, video that the family's attorney, Benjamin Crump, says is enough probable cause to indict right now, he says.

But there's little public faith in the grand jury deliberating this case, perhaps because it comes on the heels of two different grand juries refusing to indict police officers who killed or contributed to the death of two unarmed black men, decisions that have produced scenes like this one last night in Philadelphia, outside of Lincoln Financial Field. Tens of thousands of Eagles fans trying to get home from the game, but they were met by protesters staging a die-in on Broad Street and Pattison Avenue.

Protests have persisted in places such as New York and Washington. And since the wild and fearsome first two nights in Ferguson, they have remained, these protests, mostly peaceful. But today protests were overtaken by people set on creating chaos.

Dan Simon is live in Berkeley, California, where police clashed early this morning with factions of protesters.

Dan, just how ugly did things get there last night?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hey, Jake.

First of all, this is the kind of thing that we're seeing in this part of Berkeley, some smashed-up ATMs. We're along the main thoroughfare in Berkeley, Shattuck Avenue. We're just a few blocks away from the university. Why these particular protests turned violent, we don't know.

But, according to police, you had a couple of splinter groups that were intent on causing problems.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SIMON (voice-over): Berkeley's long and storied history of protests going back to the '60s and the Vietnam War now has a new one to add to its chapter. But the message of wanting to stand with protesters in Ferguson, Missouri, and New York is now being overshadowed by images of violence and looting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A guy with a crowbar comes in, starts stealing stuff, like as much as they can get.

SIMON: It began on Saturday night. Police say an unruly crowd began throwing bricks at their officers, who responded with tear gas. From there, things got even uglier as some protesters began smashing up businesses.

Authorities hoped the violence would be over on Saturday. But on Sunday night, the tension was even higher and the chaos even more widespread, a whole row of ATMs shattered, a sprint cell phone store looted and the crowd spilled over to nearby Oakland as demonstrators tried to shut down a freeway.

Protesters again also taking to the streets of New York, with large demonstrations at Grand Central Station and Apple's iconic store on Fifth Avenue. Similar scenes in Philadelphia and Seattle. And the national outcry also extending once again to the gridiron. Washington Redskins defensive lineman Chris Baker making the hands up, don't shoot gesture after a play Sunday.

And several NFL and NBA players wearing I can't breathe T-shirts, all of this as authorities back in Berkeley brace themselves for another long night.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIMON: About a dozen people over the weekend were arrested as we have seen with other cities. It's a relatively small number of people who are really causing the issues. But, Jake, the concern is what's going to happen tonight? More demonstrations are planned. And there's a real concern that we're going to see a repeat of what we have seen the last few days -- back to you.

TAPPER: All right, Dan Simon in Berkeley, California, thank you so much.

The aftermath of Michael Brown and Eric Garner and with more developments in the Tamir Rice case, all three involving white police officers acting against unarmed black suspects, it's ignited tensions between African-Americans and police.

Here to talk about it, former Saint Louis police officer Redditt Hudson, author of "The Washington Post" op-ed. "Being a cop showed me just how racist and violent the police are. There's s only one fix," he writes.

Thanks so much for being with us, officer. Appreciate it.

As a former police officer, do you think it's the case that Tamir Rice in Cleveland or Eric Garner in New York or Michael Brown in Ferguson had been white, they might be alive today?

REDDITT HUDSON, FORMER SAINT LOUIS POLICE OFFICER: Potentially.

I just saw a video yesterday on Facebook where someone was illustrating the difference between how white subjects and black subjects are handled. It showed middle-aged, maybe a little bit older white guy in the street with an assault rifle. And it had the audiotape of the calls that went in complaining about this guy walking down the street with an assault rifle.

And the police arrived and listened to him for 10 minutes tell them what they would and wouldn't do about him having the assault rifle. Ultimately, they approach him after about 10 minutes. He puts the gun down, they unload the gun, sit down next to him and begin a conversation.

It's not audible what they're discussing. But if that had been Michael Brown, if that had been Eric Garner, if that had been any black man in this country, I believe he would have been fired upon almost immediately, as was tragically 12-year-old Tamir down in Cleveland where the officers hadn't even exited the vehicle before they opened fire on this kid.

TAPPER: Yes, it's a tragic story. You bring this very interesting perspective having been a member of the Saint Louis police force.

You write in your op-ed, "Many of my peers were deeply racist."

How widespread do you think this problem is?

HUDSON: I think it's widespread. I think it's widespread.

Early in my career, there was a Web site that was established called Saint Louis Cop Talk. You could go on that Web site anonymously, which is very important, without leaving your name and express any point of view about anything that you wanted to, and largely the dialogue on that site was so racist and vitriolic and angry as it was directed towards the black community in Saint Louis that ultimately at some point the site administrator had to shut it down.

It's a major problem. The anger you see in the streets right now is in no small part due to the fact that you do have officers that bring that racism to the job and the power to act on it. I don't want to leave you with the impression that it's only white officers that abuse their authority. It is not.

You have some black officers that do it, Asian officers, Hispanic. The issue is the abuse of the authority and where it takes place, which consistently is in black and brown communities. Let me give you a very good example of what I'm talking about.

When you saw the aftermath of the Michael Brown shooting, when you saw that rage, when you saw that anger, prior to, to let you know what the environment in Ferguson was with the police in the community, prior to Michael Brown being shot, there was a black man who was arrested during a traffic stop, taken into the station, beaten while he was handcuffed and then charged for bleeding on the officer's uniform. I'm dead serious.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Yes, I know. We have talked about that case on the show before.

HUDSON: That's the environment.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: The trust, of course, goes two ways and police officers have a very difficult job, as I don't need to tell you. I want you to take a listen to something that I heard on "Meet the Press" yesterday. It's the mayor of Philadelphia, Michael Nutter. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL NUTTER (D), MAYOR OF PHILADELPHIA: You in essence have the citizens who want to be protected who are now increasingly afraid of the police. And you have some police officers who are increasingly afraid of the community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Is that accurate, you think, that the distrust and the fear goes both ways?

HUDSON: Absolutely. Absolutely. The first step towards resolving that, if you want to have real

dialogue, real dialogue, you have to have both sides fully acknowledge what they have contributed to the breakdown in the relationship. I have seen it more from the community side.

I have never consistently seen it from the law enforcement side. We stick to the narrative that our life is on the line, we take these risks every day, how dare you ever question any decision I make, if you understood what my training was, if you understood what it was like to be in a situation when you had to make a split-second decision -- well, here's the thing.

There are former officers and current officers who know exactly what that is like, but who still manage to respect the human rights and dignity of the people that we serve without abusing their rights and their bodies and then excusing it because we signed on to do a dangerous job.

There has to be some acknowledgment, and I think the window of opportunity for that is right now. When you look across the country, it is right now an opportunity, a real opportunity to change the way policing is done in our communities, and at the same time work in communities to resolve issues that may contribute to the breakdown in the relationship as well.

TAPPER: And that's the fix that you write about in your op-ed in "The Washington Post."

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Yes, go ahead.

HUDSON: The fix that I'm talking about in "The Washington Post," Jake, is accountability, punishment.

You can retrain, you can whatever you want to do. I have said in trainings -- racial sensitivity trainings as an officer and watched some of my fellow officers open up newspapers and read them while the presenter was presenting and asked, when do we have to stop listening or when can we stop listening to this politically correct B.S., so I can get back to work?

So training is one thing. But if you fail to adhere to it, as in New York City, where the New York patrol guide says, you will not use chokeholds, chokeholds include but are not limited to any hold that restricts air to the windpipe or the airways, and then you have national experts come on national television and say, well, obviously that policy is not workable, what he's saying when he says that policy is not workable, he's saying obviously those officers don't adhere to it, they don't care about it. They don't follow it.

But when they don't follow it, there has to be some meaningful accountability and society, the larger society has to understand that some officers do need to be held accountable. It doesn't mean you're anti-law enforcement. It doesn't mean you're pro-criminal. It means you're pro-responsible law enforcement. TAPPER: All right, former Saint Louis police officer Redditt Hudson,

thank you so much for talking to us today. We appreciate it.

HUDSON: I appreciate you, Jake. Thank you.

TAPPER: In the sports lead today, several professional athletes taking a stand, showing support for both Eric Garner and Michael Brown. Not all fans are happy about it. Saint Louis Rams jerseys were burned in protest this weekend. And will there be further backlash? Well, I will ask NBA legend Isiah Thomas what he thinks coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

The sports lead now -- with multimillion-dollar endorsement deals on the lines, sports stars are often reluctant to wade into controversy. But that is not the way it's always been. There was a time when athletes were often political. Sometimes they suffered for it.

Now, we may be seeing a return to that era. In recent events supporting Eric Garner and Michael Brown, and well, tonight, LeBron James, arguably the biggest sports star on the planet, he could join a number of other athletes such as Chicago Bulls star Derrick Rose, Detroit Lions runningback Reggie Bush, and Cleveland Brown's cornerback Johnson Bademosi. They were all spotted wearing T-shirts with the words "I can't breathe" over the weekend. Those were Garner's last words after being put in a police chokehold, of course.

And then the show of solidarity with supporters of Michael Brown, Washington Redskins player Chris Baker made the "hands up, don't shoot" gesture during yesterday's game in yesterday's game versus the St. Louis Rams.

Joining me now to talk about this all, by phone, is NBA legend and friend of the show, Isiah Thomas.

Mr. Thomas, as always, it's great to have you on the show. Thanks for joining us.

ISIAH THOMAS, NBA LEGEND (via telephone): Thank you for having me.

TAPPER: So, Isiah, we haven't seen this type of political activism in pro-sports perhaps since '60s and '70s, when you had John Carlos and Tommy Smith making the black power gesture at the '68 Olympics, Muhammad Ali publicly denouncing racism and his refusal to fight in the Vietnam War.

What do you think it is about the cases of Michael Brown and Eric Garner that have resonated with today's athletes?

THOMAS: Well, I applaud the athletes for joining the race again. Activism and sports has always gone hand in hand in this country. And I think the judicial system and the policing of our communities, while you have African-Americans in those communities and sports figures who have grown up in those communities, you know, they're still representing blacks in our society. So, I think the brush that they're having with the judicial system and the police right now really hits home with them as African-American men and also brothers and sisters of African-American men and women in this country right now.

TAPPER: After the Rams' players did it, the "hands up, don't shoot" protest, the local St. Louis police officers union expressed disappointment, anger with them. And one of the things that was said in a statement was something along the lines of, I'm paraphrasing, but something like when there were riots and looting, players on the Rams wanted our protection, and now, they are coming out against us.

What do you think about that?

THOMAS: Well, the police mentality has been us against them. And as a community, we have always fought the involvement of the police. We welcome the involvement of the police. The distrust that has developed over this neighborhood of communities goes back to slavery and civil rights, for education and the fight for voting rights in this country, there's a long history of mistrust. And all the African-American community has been asking for is to be able to trust the police that are policing the community.

TAPPER: Do you have had issues? I mean, you've been a recognizable face for decades. Have you ever had a run-in with the police where you weren't treated the way that you thought you deserved to be treated?

THOMAS: Well, 75 percent of black males in this country have had run- ins with the police from -- whether it be traffic stops or having been arrested or incarcerated. So, yes, I was the head coach of the Indiana Pacers and I was pulled over in a traffic stop incident. And they brought the dogs out, suspected me as a drug dealer and had me facedown on the pavement --

TAPPER: What?

THOMAS: -- as a lot of Indiana Pacer teammates drove by. This was at 3:00, 4:00 in the morning. We were coming back off a road trip from the West Coast.

And now, whether I disobeyed the law or was guilty or not, the fact that they brought dogs out of the car, went inside my car and asked me if I had a weapon or drugs inside the car, those things do happen. My brother-in-law who graduated Michigan law school was pulled over several years ago in California and, you know, had his jaw broken.

In all our families, in black families in this country, we do have to have the conversation of how we interact with the police. And that's just part of our daily lives, and a lot of it goes unnoticed. And what I really love about what's happening right now is that this younger generation is really standing up and they are demanding equality.

When you look at the marches that are going on across this country, you see black, white, brown, everyone joining hands, everyone walking together peacefully. And they're simply asking that as Americans, we have equality across the board. And that's all you can ask for.

You know, the Perception Institute has done a study in terms of black boys in the educational system. They talk about how two-thirds of the 3 million suspensions are of boys of color. So, when you talk about perception in this country, you know, and you talk about fear and the white male or the white police officer fearing the black male, even if he's unarmed, that's something that we need to have a discuss about in terms of perception and media perceptions in this country.

TAPPER: Well, thank you for having the conversation with us. Isiah Thomas, thank you so much.

THOMAS: Thank you.

TAPPER: Coming up, thousands of marines on alert around the world as the U.S. Senate prepares to release a controversial and potentially explosive report. Will Americans be targeted abroad once it is released?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake tapper.

In our world lead -- American officials are bracing for violence overseas, fearing worldwide reaction to a new report due out tomorrow about the CIA's history of torture after the 9/11 attacks. U.S. embassies and consulates have increased their security presence and 2,200 marines have been placed on high alert ready to respond to any crisis. That concern, of course, stems from prior incidents that inflamed tensions in the Muslim world. You may recall the outrage in 2004 over those horrifying images from inside Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison showing American service men and women torturing inmates.

Four years ago, Florida pastor Terry Jones set off a firestorm across the Muslim world when he threatened to publicly burn copies of the Koran.

And in 2012, protesters took to the streets in more than a dozen Arab countries, including Yemen and Tunisia. Egypt angered by the release of the film "The innocence of Muslims", a clip of which mocked the Prophet Muhammad on YouTube. Reports surfaced last week that Secretary of State John Kerry asked Senator Dianne Feinstein, chairwoman of the Intelligence Committee, to delay the report's release because it could complicate the U.S.'s relationship with foreign countries.

But at the White House briefing today, spokesman Josh Earnest said the president supports the publication of that report.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president believes that on principle, it's important to release that report so that people around and people here at home understand exactly what transpired.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: In an interview with CNN's Candy Crowley, former President George W. Bush defended the enhanced interrogation program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: We're fortunate to have men and women who work hard at the CIA, serving on our behalf. These are patriots. And whatever the report says, if it diminishes their contributions to our country, it is way off base.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That was from CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION WITH CANDY CROWLEY".

In other national news, she said she was the victim of a horrific gang rape at a fraternity party two years ago. Now, some are wondering if Jackie is a victim or a liar after some details of her story do not add up. What exactly happened that night? Her friends are talking to us. That's next.

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