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CNN NEWSROOM

Officer Darren Wilson to Resign; Violence in Ferguson Following Grand Jury Decision; Protests Across the Country

Aired November 25, 2014 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Emotions boiled over in cities across the country in the wake of last night's grand jury decision not to indict Police Officer Darren Wilson. In New York City, more than 1,000 protesters knocked down barricades and marched through the streets demanding justice for Michael Brown. Demonstrators in Times Square even sprayed fake blood over the police commissioner, Bill Bratton. Hundreds more protested in Chicago, marching through the city chanting slogans like "black lives matter" and "hands up, don't shoot." Protests there were mostly peaceful, no arrests were made. And overnight in Washington, a large crowd assembled outside of the White House to protest the grand jury ruling, some chanted and held signs, as you can hear, others laid down on the street in a die-in scene intended to invoke the memory of Michael Brown.

Let's head back to Ferguson now and check in with Don Lemon. Hi, Don.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, good morning, Carol.

Of course the big question you asked, everyone's been asking, what happens next? How does this community move forward? And, also, how does the officer move forward and what happens with the police chief who has really been at the center of this, and we're talking about Thomas Jackson, the police chief of Ferguson. Didn't see much of him last night.

Evan Perez is our justice correspondent. So, Evan, let's talk about the officer first. What happens with the officer? How does Darren Wilson move forward? Because we're hearing he's in the process of resigning, correct?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right, he wants to resign. He wants to step down mostly to, you know, to ease pressure on his fellow officers. You know, obviously, they're getting a lot of pressure because of him and he feels like he can't come back to the force because it puts not only himself but also his fellow officers in danger. So that's one reason why he wants to do this.

However, he wants to make sure that any agreement he makes with the city also makes clear that he did nothing wrong. He believes he did nothing wrong. Obviously, the grand jury has now cleared him of any wrongdoing. So he wants to make sure that is established in any agreement that he makes in resigning. He had planned to do it on Saturday if the grand jury had finished its work then.

LEMON: And what you're hearing is what I heard from someone who is very close to the officer last night --

PEREZ: Right.

LEMON: Saying that he believes that he has been unduly made out to be a villain and he wants to change that narrative. And also that he is concerned about -- last night his concern was about the men and women in uniform who were fighting the protesters who were looting and also going up against police officers.

But also we have learned, too, that he got married --

PEREZ: Right.

LEMON: Friday before last --

PEREZ: Right.

LEMON: To a fellow police officer.

PEREZ: Right.

LEMON: She works in the department as well. It would be interesting to see if she will return to the police department. We don't know that yet.

PEREZ: Right. I mean, look, I think, you know, he has a lot of concern, obviously, for his own life and also for his wife's now, his wife -- her own safety.

LEMON: Right, (INAUDIBLE).

PEREZ: And I think, you know, one of the things that, you know, moving forward for them is how could you possibly be an officer not only here or anywhere else, you know?

LEMON: I don't think that he wants to be a police officer.

PEREZ: Right.

LEMON: I think that he will go on and do something different --

PEREZ: And, you know, Don, one of the interesting things in the evidence that was released last night is, you know, he's never fired his gun on duty, he said --

LEMON: Yes.

PEREZ: And that was an interesting thing that I hadn't heard before.

LEMON: The man who's at the helm of that department for now is Thomas Jackson. And so I know, in your reporting --

PEREZ: Right. LEMON: You said that it was a resignation at least was eminent? Is that still the case?

PEREZ: You know that -- that was an interesting thing. So we knew that there was this agreement. He was -- he had signed on to -- basically to resign and then we reported it and, you know, there's a larger political drama going on. People -- some people don't want him to go politically because it furthers their political interests for him to stay, at least for a while longer. And so we know that now he is basically staying on for a little while. He's also mad that he feels he was being pushed out. However, you know, he is -- for all intents and purposes, not really a player here. Last night he was nowhere to be seen.

LEMON: Yes.

PEREZ: He's not shown up at any of the planning and press conferences that we've seen. It's his own city that's been burning and he's nowhere to be seen.

LEMON: All right, thank you very much, Evan Perez, CNN's justice reporter, with us here in Ferguson.

I'm Don Lemon. You're watching CNN NEWSROOM with Carol Costello. We're going to have more from Ferguson. Carol's going to be back and more news from around the country as well, right after this quick break.

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COSTELLO: And the protests go on in Clayton, Missouri, that's very near Ferguson. As you can see, those protesters, peaceful, protesting in the spirit of Dr. Martin Luther King, peaceful, I'm going to say again, but effective.

What a contract, though, to last night because the streets of Ferguson still burning after a night of chaos. While some protesters were peaceful in their cries for justice for Michael Brown, others brought chaos, looting stores, setting cars and buildings on fire, hurling bottles and batteries and bricks at cops. St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar says last night was the worst he's seen since the August shooting death of Michael Brown.

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CHIEF JON BELMAR, ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE: What I've seen tonight is probably much worse than the worse night we ever had in August.

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COSTELLO: Cedric Alexander is president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives.

Welcome back. I'm glad you're here.

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, NATL. ORG. OF BLACK LAW ENFORCEMENT EXECUTIVES: Thank you. Thank you for having me, Carol. COSTELLO: Thanks for being here again.

Back in August you were called to Ferguson to help police improve their relationship with the city in the wake of Michael Brown's death. So let's start with the obvious. Why did the prosecutor announce the grand jury's decision at night?

ALEXANDER: Well, you know, that's a question that's being asked by everyone, certainly in the media, and certainly across the legal community as well, too. So what their strategy was? No one knows, but it certainly, in light of the distrust that already exists between the criminal justice system in that community, it really creates a lot of pause for all of, you know, for all of us as to what was their strategy around that.

COSTELLO: Initially, too, the community was going to get this 48-hour warning. That didn't happen either. Should it have?

ALEXANDER: Well, it probably would have helped them locally, if you think about it, but that was a judgment call that they made based on whatever information they have been -- you know, they may have been working with. But I will say this, Carol, a decision has been made and the struggle with that community is going to be a real difficult uphill climb in terms of building a relationship between that community and the police in that area or the criminal justice system at large. So it's going to be a real challenge for them to work through those hurt and pain and anger, but they're going to have to find a way to work through it so that that community can begin to heal at some point.

COSTELLO: Well, as you said, that's a tough road. So in retrospect, since the Ferguson police chief made so many mistakes initially, when the investigation began, releasing things without warning people, without explaining it, going into the crowd too early. In retrospect, should Ferguson and St. Louis have sent a message to the community and fired the police chief, the Ferguson police chief, just to say, you know, this is a whole new start, we get it?

ALEXANDER: Well, the problem is much greater than Chief Tom Jackson there. And the history of that department, that community, from what I understand, has been in question for a very, very long time. I don't think you could --

COSTELLO: But Chief Jackson didn't make it any better. He didn't make it any better. He made it worse.

ALEXANDER: He certainly didn't. He certainly -- absolutely he didn't. He did not make it any better. We all know that there were a number of missteps that were made that should have not been made. But their decision to terminate him, obviously, was one that was not in their repertoire of things to do. But that community, going forward, is going to have to make some real difficult decisions for them as to how they're going to make transitions in their leadership, not just in that chief's office, but across that community at large in terms of its overall leadership.

COSTELLO: So what should happen tonight to prevent looting and burning and violent protests?

ALEXANDER: Well, one thing that I will say, and one thing I would ask that community from where I sit right here in Atlanta is this -- there is no need to go back out and loot and burn. People who want to peacefully protest, they should be allowed to do so. And no one should interrupt that. And for those peaceful protesters, let me say this to you. Those that are creating havoc out there, you have to I.D. them, get them pulled out by the police so that you can carry on with your peaceful protests.

If not, the narrative gets changed as the real reason as to why you're protesting when you have that amount of violence that has taken place, such as what we saw last night. So the community plays a real important part. Protest, that's your First Amendment right, and no one is going to deny you of that, but we've got to be able to identify those that are causing trouble and getting them out of the way as soon as we can.

COSTELLO: We heard last week, in preparation for this day, that citizens were going to make citizens arrests and I'm talking about local pastors, church leaders, they were going to go out there, they were going to make these citizen arrests. If anyone was acting violent, they were going to act. I didn't hear any of that last night.

ALEXANDER: Well, I wouldn't suggest anyone go out and make a citizen arrest. That is the responsibility of the local police department. However, that clergy, any other community leaders that are in that community, should work alongside police in identifying those that are troublemakers and getting them out of the way. But we certainly don't want to put community members acting as police officers, because that's not what they're trained to do, and we don't want anyone to get hurt in any of this.

COSTELLO: Cedric Alexander, thank you so much for your insight. I appreciate it.

ALEXANDER: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, we've seen the looting and the fires and rioting in Ferguson despite pleas for protesters not to resort to violence, but what does it really say about what's happening in this American city? It's a much broader issue. We'll talk about that next.

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COSTELO: The images out of Ferguson have no doubt been striking -- stores burning, windows smashed, police firing tear gas at demonstrators, at protesters, rather. St. Louis County police chief, he called the protests much worse than in the days after Michael Brown was killed by Officer Darren Wilson.

In a statement after the grand jury decision was made public last night, Brown's family said, quote, "Answering violence with violence is not the appropriate reaction." So why did some protesters choose to do otherwise? Let's talk more in-depth about that. CNN's Don's Lemon in is in

Ferguson along with CNN political commentator Van Jones. The Brown family made video message, they made please on the radio, please keep these protests peaceful, and yet many didn't heed the call. Why?

LEMON: Why? I think it's obviously for the obvious reason that they were upset with the not indictment -- of Officer Darren Wilson not being indicted. I -- Van Jones and I disagree on a lot of this. Some of it we agree on. I think it does no good for people to be looting and rioting and people to be stealing condoms and hair weaves and liquor. What does that do?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, that's terrible. And there's no excuse for that. I think there's some things, though, that were not seen by the media last night. First of all, despite the people who got the nonsense started, there was a large number of people trying to keep a lid on things and who actually did. You talk about Dr. King. Let's give credit to the good people, Don. The people did about 100 trainings with people in the weeks leading up, begging people, teaching people. Those people I think are heartbroken tonight because they put in the work. We talked about the need for nonviolence --

LEMON: This morning. It's been a long night.

JONES: Right, this morning.

LEMON: Listen, I don't disagree with you on that, Van, but I think we would be disingenuous in saying what we saw last night was not peaceful. And it was horrible.

JONES: It was horrible. There was some other things I thought that people may not have noticed. I've never seen African-American youth with those Anonymous masks on.

LEMON: What is your observation about that? You think that there's something interesting. You think this was -- you think much of this was led by anarchists, you believe?

JONES: It's hard for me to know that for sure, but it's unusual for culture to jump white to black. Usually you have African-American kids, they like hip-hop. Then the white kids like hip-hop. It's a way that culture moves.

LEMON: African-American kids sag.

JONES: Sag their pants, white kids sag their pants. Usually culture moves from black to white. It's just been that way in the country since Elvis Presley. Last night, you saw a white cultural phenomenon of those Anonymous masks, those Guy Fawkes masks, being worn by African-American protesters. When I saw that, I was shocked. I said this is going to be a different kind of protest.

LEMON: OK, I'm going play devil's advocate here because people are going to say, oh, now you're blaming the rioting and the looting and all the unrest on white people. JONES: Oh, no, not at all. That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm

saying that there's a particular rhythm to the way protests work, the things that you'ee used to seeing. You can call it -- last night there was a different mix of people out there than you saw before. The mix last summer when we were here was overwhelmingly local folks who had local grievances and you had a few people from the outside. At least from a cultural influence point of view, what you saw last night was much more that global protest movement showing that almost like Occupy in Ferguson.

LEMON: Along with Anonymous. Do you think there was an orchestration that we didn't necessarily see playing out? There was some undercurrent of -- that was orchestrated by --

JONES: I think when the police get to the bottom of this, my prediction is going to be you're going to find that there's probably five to ten people that set most of those fires. You didn't see people running around with Molotov cocktails, that kind of stuff, but all of a sudden you see fires popping up and it was very, very organized the way that happened. That was not the crowd. That was a smaller group of people. I guarantee you, when the police look into this, that -- and that was horrible. That was horrible.

LEMON: Where -- but it's not Anonymous, it's not Occupy, it's not -- that you see on the video breaking into stores and businesses and looting. You don't see that --

JONES: Two different things. The looting you saw was just knuckleheads out there with baseball bats, shaming this community, shaming Mike Brown's family, doing exactly what the family said not to do. That is inexcusable. I'm saying there was something else happening. The arsons were not the same as the looting. And if you saw the sequence of the arsons, that was a different group.

LEMON: We had correspondents out there, and as we got back and sort of did a debrief at our hotel, saying they would be out there and someone would say, hey, man, you need to stand back. They'd go up to a car with gas and whatever, an accelerant, and they set a match to it. That --

JONES: Listen, I'm going to -- I've been doing this stuff for 20 years. I've spent a lot of time in the Bay Area. I know how protest politics works. There was a group of people out there who was not the same as the large crowd and not the same as the looters who came out there to do what they did. And that's a heart breaker for the young people who listened to the media, listened to you, Don Lemon, and spent time training people to be non-violent. Their work fell apart.

I also am curious where was the National Guard and other folks who --

LEMON: But everyone is asking why is the National Guard here? We don't want the National Guard. They shouldn't be here; that's going to incite people. And then last night people were saying where was the National Guard? Why weren't they there? So which way do you want it? JONES: Well, listen, there were I think there were two reasons why I

was saying last night I don't expect violence. One was because of the level of preparation. These young people, please, young people, you did the right thing. They trained and they trained and they trained. And then also people thought there was going to be more protection for property.

LEMON: OK, I want to ask you this because we've been having a debate -- you, Chris, and I, and Sunny, and a lot of people even online about the comments that Rudy Giuliani made. The race comments, that's another thing.

Let's talk about -- he said where was the leadership? Do you think that police here felt constrained? Number one, they didn't want to come off as racist about the optics and maybe there was a political correctness to it?

JONES: I don't agree with that. First of all, I think the police were correct at the beginning. They showed a level of restraint. They were standing back. They did let people gather, let people grieve. And that was appropriate. And when I was trying to get to you, Don, and you were there, holding it down for planet earth. I walked past grown men crying. They weren't yelling. I saw how the crowd was at first.

Then the knuckleheads started down at the end of the block. Once a car gets set on fire, and the police -- then you start seeing the good people going. You see the good people going home.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: And you say, look, you're ruining it for everybody. You heard Michael Brown's family right there saying this is no good.

JONES: There's no excuse. The people who came there last night and deliberately set fires and deliberately started stuff, there's no excuse for that. But I just want -- if people think that -- listen, if thousands of people came out last night to set fires and hurt people, we would have had a massacre last night. What you saw was a small number of people doing horrible, horrible things. But please give credit to those young people. I don't want them to lose heart. They tried. They did try.

LEMON: Yes, all right. Van Jones.

Carol Costello, again, the question is how do you move forward? You move forward starting with conversations like this and you have to be willing, on both sides, to meet each other in the middle and at least start a conversation, start a dialogue. Carol Costello?

COSTELLO: All right, thanks to you both. Great conversation.

Next hour of CNN NEWSROOM after a break

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