Return to Transcripts main page

CNN NEWSROOM

No Indictment in Ferguson; Grand Jury Evidence Released in Brown Case

Aired November 25, 2014 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: OK. You got that right. Thanks so much, have a great day.

NEWSROOM starts now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Happening now in the NEWSROOM. An explosive decision.

ROBERT MCCULLOCH, ST. LOUIS COUNTY PROSECUTOR: They determined that no probable cause exists to file any charge against Officer Wilson.

COSTELLO: Igniting outrage in Ferguson.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you saying? That our lives are not -- our lives are not worthy?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've had enough. Enough racism, enough bigotry.

COSTELLO: Windows smashing, fires burning. Tear gas billowing. CNN reporting in the thick of it.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: It's tear gas.

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: People are throwing stuff at me.

COSTELLO: The president acknowledging the scope of this decision.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We need to recognize that this is not just an issue for Ferguson. This is an issue for America.

COSTELLO: Also, Officer Wilson's testimony to the grand jury.

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He felt like a 5-year-old holding Hulk Hogan, the big wrestler.

COSTELLO: We're poring over the transcripts.

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: All of the forensic evidence actually backs him up.

COSTELLO: And reviewing the photos taken of Officer Wilson after he shot Michael Brown.

DARYL PARKS, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL BROWN JR.'S FAMILY: I think the system should be indicted. It's problematic when you only have one side.

COSTELLO: Do you think justice was served?

Let's talk, live in the CNN NEWSROOM."

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

COSTELLO: And good morning, I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

We begin this morning in a community engulfed in outrage and flames after the grand jury in Ferguson, Missouri, declines to indict Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown.

That news sending mostly peaceful protesters into the streets, but also sparking fresh clashes in a city that's already endured months of unrest since that deadly August 9th encounter. Police who fired tear gas in an attempt to move the crowds and arrested some 21 people so far amid reports of looting and gunshots and multiple fires.

More than a dozen buildings as well as some police cars torched. One blogger saying all hell is breaking loose.

The violence coming despite calls for calm from the family of Michael Brown who released a statement after the decision was announced. It reads in part, quote, "While we understand that many others share our pain, we ask that you channel your frustration in ways that will make a positive change. Let's not just make noise, let's make a difference."

CNN's Chris Cuomo was an eyewitness to it all.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO (voice-over): Ferguson on fire after no indictment of Officer Darren Wilson. As many as a dozen buildings torched in the worst conflicts to date as outrage ran through the streets. Local authorities thought they were prepared, that tear gas would not be needed.

They were wrong.

(On camera): Here come flash bangs and canisters coming right up at us.

(Voice-over): Live on air --

(On camera): We're getting gassed right now.

(Voice-over): -- gas shot around reporters forcing the crowds to flee. Further down the street --

(On camera): It's tear gas.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Tear gas.

CUOMO (voice-over): Police firing more tear gas directly into the crowd. Officers trying to disperse the crowd but there would be no control.

CHIEF JON BALMER, ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE: I didn't see a lot of peaceful protests out there tonight. What I've seen tonight is probably much worse than the worst night we ever had in August.

CUOMO: All this because a grand jury refused to indict Officer Darren Wilson. Small groups of agitators ravaging Ferguson, looting businesses, and setting fire to police cruisers, tears streaming down the face of Michael Brown's mother after the decision was read.

MCCULLOCH: The grand jury deliberated over two days. They determined that no probable cause exists to file any charge against Officer Wilson and returned a no true bill on each of the five indictments.

CUOMO: Brown's parents saying, quote, "We're profoundly disappointed that the killer of our child will not face the consequence of his actions." Officer Darren Wilson's lawyers also releasing his statement. "Officer Wilson followed his training, followed the law."

Minutes after word of the grand jury decision, President Obama called for peace.

OBAMA: Hurting others or destroying property is not the answer.

CUOMO: Prosecutors released all evidence presented to the grand jury, 24 volumes of transcripts reviewed by the 12 grand jurors, seven men, five women, nine white, three black. Also for the first time we see photos of Officer Wilson taken immediately after he fatally shot the unarmed black teen six times, more photos of the scene itself.

We now know Wilson testified that when he first saw Brown and his friend walking in the middle of the road on the morning of August 9th he yells, quote, "Hey, guys, why don't you walk on the sidewalk?" That's when Wilson says Brown walked over and slammed the police cruiser door as Wilson tried to exit.

Wilson testified the teen hit him in excess of 10 times, landing two blows, causing minor bruising. These photos showing a swollen right cheek, scratches on the back of his neck. Wilson also says after a tussle over his gun and two shots fired in the car, Brown takes off. Wilson pursuing him down the street yelling, "get on the ground." the teen stops, turns toward the officer with, quote, "an aggressive face." Officer Wilson says Brown then charges him and when Brown was only eight to 10 feet away the officer fires two fatal shots hitting him in the head.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Chris Cuomo reporting. Chris Cuomo joins me now from outside of Ferguson along with Don Lemon. Good morning to you both. I guess you have to wonder what tonight will bring.

LEMON: Yes. Well, we certainly -- we certainly do wonder what tonight will bring and hopefully it will be a lot more peaceful than what happened last night.

Are you doing OK?

CUOMO: I am, are you?

LEMON: Yes. Yes. I'm doing -- I'm doing fine. Not much sleep but, I mean, you know, considering what the -- many of the people who live here are going through that's nothing, especially the storekeepers, the shop owners, who are waking up and coming back to businesses that are no longer there.

CUOMO: That's the worst part, is that there -- those who did wrong destroyed a community that needs every resource that it has.

LEMON: Exactly.

CUOMO: And I'm saying those who because who knows if they were locals, they were outsiders? What difference does it make?

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: They destroyed these businesses. They weren't protected. We thought the National Guard was going to be out there protecting property.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: I didn't see a lot of that. And it really seemed like we weren't ready to be tear gassed like that.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: Because we were told it wouldn't be necessary partly because of tactics, partly because of high winds.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And they gassed like crazy.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Last night. Didn't seem like the police had their game together.

LEMON: No, it didn't. And also in the beginning, you know, just a couple of minutes ago, Van Jones and I were talking about -- we're talking about the number of people who were out there protesters. There was a small group of protesters who were marching peacefully, and then once the decision was announced, they were dwarfed, overwhelmed by people who were up who really didn't have any good intentions at heart, so to speak.

CUOMO: First of all, it takes a very small number, maybe even one, to change the entire dynamic from the police perspective.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: And then once the police does what we're watching right now, that Carol is playing, now people who came there to be peaceful are no longer peaceful.

LEMON: Exactly.

CUOMO: Because they feel that they're being victimized and they're outraged and that's what we saw time and again last night.

LEMON: Right. Right. And, you know, a lot has been made, as been -- we've been talking about how police will handle this, how they handled it last time, whether they were over-militarized, the optics of it, and all of that. You spoke with Rudy Giuliani this morning, the former mayor of New York City and I thought you had a very interesting conversation where he talked about leadership.

Let's listen to your conversation, part of it at least.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK: There was a vacuum of leadership, a cooling off period for two days that made the riot worse. No attempt to really bring the communities together that really worked. Obviously all that work they did since August bringing the communities together was completely for naught.

This riot was worse than the one in August. They went from bad to worse. And no one was saying the right -- no one was saying the right things. No one was talking about the fact that you can protest, you can yell, you can scream, you have every right to be very angry about this if you want to.

The first minute you throw a can, the first minute you hurt a car, the first minute you break a window, you are put in handcuffs and you are taken away. And by the way, there'll be three times as many police here as you, so don't mess around with us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I don't always agree with Rudy Giuliani but I think he's absolutely right on that point, that there needs to be -- someone needs to set the example.

CUOMO: Yes. And it is about a vacuum of leadership. You can't just blame the police, and part of leading is being present. You know, was it safe last night? It's safe enough to be there.

LEMON: Were they -- were they too worried about image? Because last time they were worried about the optics. OK, we don't want to look like we're --

CUOMO: I think -- obviously otherwise they wouldn't have changed. Right? You change tactics in response to how they're perceived. And that's often a good thing. But the National Guard wasn't out there in a way that was even suggested by them, and you need your leaders on the ground. You have to have your big electeds and the people who matter there on the ground. That means something to people.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Otherwise there is a vacuum and I think you have a problem. Now Rudy Giuliani I believe is right about that. However, what you say as a leader matters.

LEMON: It matters.

CUOMO: And -- right.

LEMON: And I said -- I was very critical of him yesterday. I thought the way -- the conversation that he had regarding race and crime on the morning shows came off as racist, even though he had some points about crime statistics, and basically he -- he said what President Obama said, but President Obama doesn't get called a racist. And it's how you say it.

CUOMO: A little bit of that is a Brown factor also, right?

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: It's harder to be called a racist when you're Brown.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Sell-out.

CUOMO: You've managed it pretty well.

LEMON: Right. Right.

CUOMO: But you know, so Rudy may be burdened by that but it's also that, well, stop killing yourselves so much, and we won't have to go there.

LEMON: Well --

CUOMO: That's what the message was that was coming across.

LEMON: Yes, that's not -- that's not right.

CUOMO: Very divisive.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: Leaders are supposed to unite, not divide. And also blacks kill blacks, whites kill whites.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: That's what happens. Ninety-three percent of black crime killed by other blacks, 86 percent white. LEMON: Eighty-eight, 88, yes.

CUOMO: You know, so that's not your problem. Your problem is, why do you have crime?

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: What are the social factors that go into it? Are those social factors more present in lower income populations? Are those tendency to be minority? All the answers are yes.

LEMON: And it's not that -- and it's not that it just happens. These things don't happen in a vacuum. There's institutional racism and historical racism.

CUOMO: That's right.

LEMON: And that's -- there are reasons why people are in the positions that they are in.

CUOMO: And you have to address those but it's not going to happen today.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: What this place needs today is a sense of calm and community and someone reaching out.

LEMON: Also want to talk to you about another interview that I thought was pretty good this morning on "NEW DAY." You spoke with a supporter of Officer Darren Wilson, that supporter in disguise as much as she could be in disguise as much as she could be in disguise.

CUOMO: Right. Because she's afraid. She gets threats.

LEMON: Yes. Here she is. Here she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Have people threatened you because of what you've done in support of Darren Wilson?

UNIDENTIFIED FRIEND OF DARREN WILSON: Yes, absolutely.

CUOMO: And do you think that will end now?

UNIDENTIFIED FRIEND OF DARREN WILSON: Not any time in the near future.

CUOMO: What do you think is going on?

UNIDENTIFIED FRIEND OF DARREN WILSON: The protesters have made it very clear that they are seeking out supporters of Officer Darren Wilson and Officer Darren Wilson himself and his family to try to harm them.

CUOMO: And what has kept you going then with something that's obviously scary enough to make you disguise yourself?

UNIDENTIFIED FRIEND OF DARREN WILSON: What has kept me going?

CUOMO: Why do it?

UNIDENTIFIED FRIEND OF DARREN WILSON: Just because it's the right thing for justice to be served and to make sure that -- to keep Officer Darren Wilson safe and to now support his brothers and sisters in blue.

CUOMO: Did you ever have any doubts about the officer's story?

JEFF ROORDA (D), MISSOURI STATE SENATOR, FRIEND OF DARREN WILSON: About the officer's story, no. I mean, the outcome, yes, but not the officer's story.

CUOMO: And that's been a big thing from pretty early on there was word from those around Darren Wilson. He didn't expect to be indicted. He felt that what he was doing was unfortunate but within the parameters of what he was allowed to do and yet there had to be some doubt.

When you heard the words from the prosecutor that there's not going to be an indictment, what was that like?

UNIDENTIFIED FRIEND OF DARREN WILSON: Relief. I think there was a sigh of relief across the entire law enforcement community.

CUOMO: You think it's not just him. You think that this extends to the brothers and sisters in blue?

UNIDENTIFIED FRIEND OF DARREN WILSON: Absolutely.

CUOMO: Why?

UNIDENTIFIED FRIEND OF DARREN WILSON: Because they're all fighting the aftermath of this now and it could have been any one of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Look, one thing that's dangerous, you don't -- again, you don't divide, you unite. Us versus them is dangerous with cops in the communities that they police. They have to bridge that here. In her hand she had a letter that was from Officer Darren Wilson. And it was a thank you to his supporters and especially to the cops who were doing the job every day.

The question is, will he ever do that job again here?

LEMON: I don't think that he will do that job again here and I don't think that he wants to do that job again here. And I spoke to someone who is very close to him last night and they said -- obviously he's in an undisclosed location. He feels like the weight of the world, he says, has been lifted off of his shoulders but he also says that he has been made the villain, to be a villain. And he wants to change that narrative, that he's -- according to this person who's close to him that he's not a villain. And he says --

CUOMO: It's going to be hard because he's become representative of the problem.

LEMON: Right. He's become the person who represents as you said.

CUOMO: The personification. He's a metaphor for it.

LEMON: Yes. There you go. You said much more (INAUDIBLE) than I did.

CUOMO: But you know what, he also needs -- he also needs something.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: He needs something for his future. He needs to be tested.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: We know he's going to do an interview.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: He needs to be tested because people who don't believe his story won't believe it if they feel he gets a pass.

LEMON: And he also said his biggest concern were the people -- the men and women in uniform, his friends who were still out there last night.

So, Carol, there you have it. We're going to be here all day. Chris will be here as well. We've gotten a little sleep but, you know, that's what we do and I think that, you know, the good people of Ferguson, their stories need to be told. They need to know that the media is here to tell their side of the story.

And as Chris said the people who were -- who got burned out and who lost their business, this community, they need that the least. Those -- this community needs every single business that they can and everything that they can to help to rebuild and to go on and to have a better economy here so --

CUOMO: The holiday come up, Carol.

COSTELLO: All right.

CUOMO: They need their reasons to be thankful.

LEMON: Yes.

COSTELLO: They do, I agree with that. And thanks to you both. We'll get back to you later on in the NEWSROOM. Thank you so much, Chris Cuomo, Don Lemon.

When we come back we're going to go through Officer Darren Wilson's testimony to the grand jury to let you hear exactly what he told jurors.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: I want to you hear what happened the day Michael Brown died, from Officer Darren Wilson's perspective. The officer's testimony to the grand jury was made public after the panel decided not to indict him.

These pictures of Wilson were part of the documents released last night. A medical report says Wilson was diagnosed with a bruised face after his confrontation with Brown. Wilson told the grand jury he fired his police weapon 12 times. His gun held a maximum of 13 bullets.

Here's more of Officer Wilson's testimony that ultimately led to his being cleared of any state charges.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO (voice-over): Officer Darren Wilson in his own words taken from the transcript of his grand jury testimony. The initial confrontation between the two started when Wilson inside his police car asked Brown and a friend to use the sidewalk. Wilson says the conversation turned profane when Brown told him "F what you have to say."

The confrontation quickly turns physical when Brown allegedly punches Wilson in the face through the car window. Wilson, who was 6'4", 210 pounds, says he felt dominated by the 6'6" teenager.

"When I grabbed him, the only way I can describe it is I felt like a 5-year-old holding onto Hulk Hogan." Hulk Hogan, that's how big he felt and how small I felt by grasping his arm."

In the three-minute confrontation, a lot of confusion, shouting and scattered glass. Wilson says Brown's face contorted with anger, that he looked like a demon.

Then, in the moments leading up to the gunfire, Wilson testifies he was punched several more times, and told Brown, "Get back, I'm going to shoot you." "He, Brown, grabs I had gun and says, 'you're too much of a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) to shoot me.' The gun goes down into my hip and at that point I thought I was getting shot. I could feel his fingers try to get inside the trigger guard with my finger, and I distinctly remember envisioning a bullet going into my leg."

Wilson says his gun went off twice inside the car. That's when Brown ran and Wilson went after him. At some point, Wilson says Brown turned and charged at him. "I tell him, keep telling him to get on the ground. He doesn't. I shoot a series of shots. I don't know how many I shot. I just know I shot it."

Wilson then says, "I know I missed a couple. I don't know how many, but I know I hit him at least once, because I saw his body kind of jerk, and the face that he had was looking straight through me, like I wasn't even there. I wasn't even anything in his way."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Compelling testimony, right? Some say yes. Others say no.

So let's talk about that. With me now, Mark O'Mara, CNN legal analyst, he also successfully defended George Zimmerman, and Sunny Hostin, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor.

Welcome to both of you.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Good morning. Glad to have you both here.

Mark, the difficult thing for me to understand is why Michael Brown would punch a police officer and then attack him inside of his police car. It doesn't really explain that clearly at least in my mind in the grand jury testimony.

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You're right. Wilson doesn't really do a good job trying to explain away what was in Mike Brown's mind.

The only thing I can say about Wilson's testimony as we went through it is even though I think he sort of embellished a bit, you know, the Hulk Hogan thing, things like that, interestingly enough, though, none of the forensic evidence countered Wilson's opinion or his testimony.

And what we do know is there was some altercation at the car and that the gun went off. It doesn't really inform what happened with the fatal shots but it does give context or perspective to what Wilson was perceiving with Brown's actions.

COSTELLO: Well, according to the grand jury testimony, Sunny, Brown was aggressive from the very beginning, right, he told the officer to "F off" when the officer told him to get out of the middle of the street and then he attacked the officer inside of his police car and went for his gun.

Does that make sense to you?

HOSTIN: It really doesn't make sense. I mean, I was up pretty late reading through Officer Wilson's testimony. It appeared to be in my opinion, Carol, very fanciful and I really want to take a step back and talk a bit about the process.

When a prosecutor has a prospective target, a suspect, a defendant -- prospective defendant inside of the grand jury, that's the prosecutor's chance to cross-examine that person. These the prosecutors treated Darren Wilson with such kid gloves. Their questions were all so softballs. He wasn't challenged, he wasn't pressed. It was just unbelievable to me the way they treated him in front of that grand jury.

And so, his testimony definitely wasn't tested, and when you hear about some of the things that he said about this aggression, and I also want to mention that he didn't provide the police with a statement. He wasn't asked to provide a statement. The only statement that he provided was to his attorney, which of course is privileged.

I mean, I think that's very telling, so the prosecutor in front of the grand jury didn't have anything to compare his testimony to and when you hear about what he said, which he had a month to sort of come up with this story -- again, it just wasn't tested. It seemed very fanciful, he talks about Michael Brown reaching into his waistband, yet when one of the grand jurors asked him whether or not he felt that Michael Brown had a gun, he says, I didn't really think about that.

He talks about this aggression from the very beginning, which seems odd. He talks about being hit so forcefully two times he thought that the next hit would be fatal, yet you look at his injuries, they don't seem to be consistent with someone 6'6", 300 pounds, punching you with full force.

There are just so many discrepancies with his testimony, and I hope the people viewing this will go on to CNN.com.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: I see Mark shaking his head. On the other hand if an officer is in fear for his life especially in the state of Missouri, he has the right to use lethal force, right, Mark?

O'MARA: He absolutely does and if we're going to call testimony fanciful, we have to have at least some basis for it. There's no question what Wilson did was try to present himself as good as he could to the grand jury. And let's face it, we all do that, every one of our witnesses does the same exact thing.

If we're going to say fanciful, if we're going to say inconsistencies, we have to be able to point them out. Now that Sunny's had a chance to look at the transcript and I read them all night long --

(CROSSTALK)

O'MARA: Hold on, Sunny, hold on one sec. Inconsistencies is inconsistencies with forensic evidence, inconsistencies with other eyewitnesses who may have been discounted by the grand jury are not true inconsistencies.

What I said earlier and what I would challenge anyone, maybe Sunny in this case, to say, show me where there is a Wilson inconsistency with forensic evidence, because if not, then it is somebody embellishing, it is somebody saying I want to present my best face forward, but those aren't lies. Those aren't things we look at and say you can't be believed so much so --

COSTELLO: So, in other words there is evidence that the officer was punched in the face because he did have bruising. There is evidence that the gun went off in the car because Michael Brown's blood is inside that car. O'MARA: And the most compelling evidence of what led to Mike Brown's

death, the most compelling evidence is Mike Brown was running away and at one point turned around and came back 25 feet. Whether that was a charge, whether it was maneuver, whether it was a walk, whether it was a run, it's open for conjecture.

But we know that that's very consistent with the idea that Wilson said before he had the forensic evidence available to him that he was coming back at me.

If you do that to a cop particularly after you have been shot, after there was some altercation, then the information that Wilson has, which is what's relevant to self-defense, is that he had to come back at him, he had to protect himself and that's why Mike Brown is dead.

COSTELLO: And the only other thing I'll add in the grand jury testimony, Officer Wilson said he told Michael Brown to lay on the ground. He said if you don't stop this, I'm going to shoot you. He said he warned him twice.

HOSTIN: Yes, and I found that interesting, because the witnesses that came forward, none of them said that they heard that, but that is what officers are trained to say. They're trained to tell you to get down on the ground, get down on the ground.

That part of his testimony would be consistent with police training, but then again Officer Wilson is the only one that is saying that. The other witnesses that came forward said that they didn't hear him saying that.

So, again, you know, I found his testimony to have not been tested by the prosecutor, which is highly unusual. He wasn't cross-examined. He was treated with kid gloves in front of the grand jury and I found his testimony to be fanciful and not credible.

COSTELLO: All right. I got to leave it there, Sunny Hostin, Mark O'Mara, thank you very much.

As you can see, no clear indication that any of this is over just yet at least in some people's minds.

For more information about what Officer Wilson told the grand jury, read the full report on all of his testimony in the case, actually all the testimony in the case, we've got it all for you at CNN.com, or go to my Facebook page, Facebook.com/CarolCNN.

I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)