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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Ferguson Braces for Possible Violence; Accusations Mounting Against Bill Cosby

Aired November 21, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

This could be it. A grand jury is meeting right now for what could be the final time to decide whether to indict Police Officer Darren Wilson for shooting and killing Michael Brown. And of this as we're learning Wilson himself could resign from that police department. Sources telling CNN that Wilson wants to relieve the pressure on other officers in the department and a decision to step down all apparently hinging on what that grand jury decides to do.

In the meantime, police in Ferguson are bracing for possible violence there. Prosecutors are expected to give law enforcement a 48-hour heads up before making that grand jury's ruling public. This morning, Attorney General Eric Holder urged protesters to remain calm no matter what happens.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The most successful and enduring movements for change are those that adhere to nonaggression and nonviolence. And so I ask all those who seek to lend their voice to important causes and discussions and who seek to elevate these vital conversations to do so in a way that respects the gravity of their subject matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to bring in Patricia Bynes, who's a Democratic committeewoman for Ferguson Township. She lives in an apartment just blocks from where Michael Brown was shot dead. And also joining me, Chris King, who's the editorial director for "The St. Louis American," Missouri's most widely read weekly newspaper targeting the African- American community.

Thank you both for taking the time to come out in this cold weather to speak with me.

Patricia, if I could start with you. The news this morning that the officer in question is now possibly going to step down from the police department, the news that PSAs are being recorded by football teams alike and by Michael Brown's father, is any of that changing the dynamic in the community where you stand?

PATRICIA BYNES, COMMITTEEWOMAN, FERGUSON TWP: I don't think so. I think that Officer Wilson - if you -- a lot of people are expecting him to resign. It would be very hard for him to come back and police this community regardless of the outcome of the grand jury indictment. And the PSAs I think are a very good idea. I think we need a reminder about being peaceful and about being calm at this time and hopefully I think that it's going to work.

BANFIELD: And, Chris, to that end, I know that you've had meetings with the police command in question about the preparation, the planning and then also the outreach that's been made not only from the police to the community, but from the community to the police as well. Where does that dynamic stand?

CHRIS KING, EDITORIAL DIRECTOR, "ST. LOUIS AMERICAN": Well, the -- both the police and the protesters have had months to prepare for this. The protesters have trained very deliberately in de-escalation. They know there are some people that are going to come out that they haven't seen before and some people are going to come back that might have started trouble before. And the protesters will de-escalate. The question for the police is, will they also de-escalate or will they intimidate and make it worse? That's the challenge for the police command and the front line officers.

BANFIELD: And I know, Chris, you have said that the words "state of emergency" just in the sound puts people on edge. Patricia, do you get that sense as well, that just by nature of there being a state of emergency, which is kind of pro forma in a situation like this, that it's making it worse?

BYNES: It is, especially when it was announced and there wasn't a particular instance that kicked it off. Previously when the governor came in, we had some things going on, several nights of protesting where things had gotten kind of dicey. That was understood. But to put us under a state of emergency right now, and there is not anything in particular going on, it just -- it's not helping the community and it's not helping -- there almost seems to be an expectation of violence and that's not healthy for anyone involved in this.

BANFIELD: All right, well, I want to thank both of you, Chris King and Patricia Bynes, and my best thoughts to you and your community as we await this decision and whatever the fallout will be.

BYNES: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Thank you to the two of you.

The Ferguson grand jury started hearing that testimony, if you can believe it, it's been since August. They have a lot of evidence that they've been pouring over. They've got some very difficult decisions to make. And this is nothing to make light of, the serious decisions that these average citizens are about to make.

Joining me to talk about the charges that Officer Wilson is facing, the evidence that may be needed to sway the grand jury one way or the other, is CNN's senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson. OK, first and foremost, let's just make sure everyone's clear on what

it is this grand jury is facing. There are four particular charges, plus an extra, I'll get to that later, that they have to mull over. The first of it being the most serious, and that's first degree. I'd like you to take a crack at what needs to be presented to them in this case for them to get to that level.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Intentional murder. Just in -- that's what first-degree murder is. It's not complicated. And it's the -- all these charges, there's one issue, frankly, in the whole case, which is, was this an exercise of reasonable self-defense on the part of Officer Wilson? You know, we can talk about the details, but that's the core issue in this case and it applies in any possible charge.

BANFIELD: So those details also apply to second degree, but there is that level that is different. What would they have to hear to get there?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure. Well, what happens is, it's the absence of deliberation. When you're intending, as you see it there, killing someone with the purpose of causing serious injury or death, and the death does occur, so it's the absence of the deliberation as - and I know you'll go down the line, Ashleigh, too, because they're looking at voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter. And the significance in terms of proof has to do - it's there again, killing - it's sudden influence or sudden passion, there's voluntary manslaughter, and then, of course, the involuntary manslaughter relates to reckless behavior, when you constantly disregard the risk that a death could result from your behavior, Ashleigh.

And so, you know, the significance of those also relates to the degree to which they're punishable by, right? The higher it is, you get an a felony, which is the murder, right, as would be a "b" felony, second degree murder. And then you get to the manslaughter, and I'll explain what all these mean in a minute, but you get the "b" felony and then the "c" felony and that -

BANFIELD: This is all common (INAUDIBLE) to people like you.

JACKSON: Right. But see -

BANFIELD: I mean, honestly, lawyers, you are so able to wrap your heads around this in an instant, but there are, you know, mechanics and hairdressers and journalists and people who don't use these terms on a regular basis --

TOOBIN: Right.

BANFIELD: And they're not inbred in our DNA.

JACKSON: Absolutely right.

BANFIELD: And when you get these 12 people together, nine of them have to make the same decision. Can they really understand the thickness and richness to the law as pertains to the immense amount of evidence that has come their way in just a fairly short time, if you think about it?

TOOBIN: Sure. Well, I mean, I don't think it's extremely complicated. I mean this is --

BANFIELD: You're a lawyer and a Harvard grad.

TOOBIN: Well, no. I - no, I - no, no, but I - really, I - look, every single person in prison in the United States was convicted or pled guilty under these legal rules. I mean they -- it's not all that - and every one will involve the jury.

BANFIELD: And the microscope of the nation wasn't on them.

TOOBIN: Well, I know. But also, I mean, that's why I said at the very beginning, the issue here is really simple. Did Officer Wilson behave reasonably? That's --

BANFIELD: Last one, real quickly.

TOOBIN: And everyone can understand what the jury - that question.

JACKSON: Sure.

BANFIELD: There's that -- there's that - there's that fifth odd one that's kind of hanging out there, it's armed criminal action. What would that mean and what do they have to figure out?

JACKSON: There you go, using a dangerous instrument or deadly weapon during another felony. That would be the murder/manslaughter, et cetera, he's using a gun during it. The grand jury, Ashleigh, of course, will also be charged on justification, and justification relates to whether or not the shooting was justified. Was the officer in imminent fear for his life? In the event that they make that determination, then no matter what the charges are, they would void them and issue what's called a no true bill, which is there's no indictment.

BANFIELD: OK. Joey Jackson and Jeffrey Toobin, stick around, if you will.

Another story that we've been following for you, the accusations that just keep mounting against Bill Cosby. A woman now says she was groped and terrorized by Cosby. She's making her story public. And she is joining a very long and growing list. You're going to hear her details in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: It's hard to believe this number, but no fewer than 15 women now say they were sexually assaulted by Bill Cosby. And the alleged assaults ranging from 1967 all the way up to 2004. These women have all come forward accusing the entertainer of everything from groping to a full out rape. Others have also been publicly named. Nearly all recount a shockingly similar experience. Mr. Cosby has been silent or has issued a denial through his attorneys. One alleged victim, Linda Traitz, tells her story as a teenager working as a waitress in a restaurant that was co-owned by Bill Cosby.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LINDA JOY TRAITZ, ALLEGES SEXUAL ASSAULT BY BILL COSBY: One day he came to my station where I was waiting tables and sat down and started speaking with me, you know, and he was real friendly and real animated and telling me I was pretty. And he offered me a ride home from the restaurant, which I accepted. And I got into his car. It was a Rolls Royce. It was early in the day. And he said, I'm going to take a drive out to the beach.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, ANCHOR, CNN'S "NEW DAY": And what did you think when he said, I'm going to take you on a drive out to the beach, what went through your head?

L. TRAITZ: I was star-struck. I - you know, this is Bill Cosby. I mean he's, you know, above reproach. I thought, you know, I was star- struck. I didn't think -- there were no red flags at all.

CAMEROTA: So you get to the beach and then what happens?

L. TRAITZ: OK. When we were pulling into wherever it was that he was parking, he opened up a briefcase that was on his front seat and it was filled with different assorted pills, capsules and tablets. I don't remember colors. There were no prescription bottles.

CAMEROTA: Did he explain to you what these pills were?

L. TRAITZ: No. All he said is, why don't you take a couple of these to -- it will help you relax. He kept, you know, I was like, what? You know, I was -- help me relax for what? I mean --

CAMEROTA: Did you end up taking any of the pills?

L. TRAITZ: No.

CAMEROTA: OK, so then what happens?

L. TRAITZ: He starts grabbing at my chest and, you know, trying to - try to fondle me and then he started to push himself on top of me, like against the seat and against the door as he was groping me. I don't remember the conversation, but I do know that that's when I panicked. I opened the door behind me and ran out of his car and ran down the beach. And I had on a long hippy peasant skirt. That's what we wore back then. And I was running and I was running towards the - I - you know, towards -- I guess towards the shoreline and my foot must have hit the bottom of my skirt because I fell and it tore up my skirt probably to the knee and I partially fell in the water. So I was wet. He was coming after me trying to calm me down because I was making such a scene. I was crying. I was in a panic. I was crying and he said, I'll take you home, I'll take you home, you know, at that point. I was not raped but I was groped and terrorized.

CAMEROTA: Jim, what do you remember about what Linda said at that time? JIM TRAITZ, BROTHER OF LINDA TRAITZ: I can literally remember being in

the kitchen when my mom got the call and I can literally remember when she told me the story. I mean, she came home and I felt like I wanted to just see the guy put in jail for the rest of his life. She said kind of what she told you but in more graphic detail, that he tried to get her to take pills, he kept trying to push her to take pills, she kept refusing. All of a sudden, he lunged at her. He didn't just like oh -- lunged at her with his body weight. He's now pinned her against the door of the car and he's got his hands - and I forget if she said they were under her shirt but grabbing her breasts and then getting - trying to get his hand in the front under the skirt. At that point, she realized he was going to barely (ph) molest her. She - I don't think she used the word rape, but I - she was sexually assaulted. He was not stopping.

CAMEROTA (voice-over): Linda says she saw Cosby at the restaurant a few times after that but he never spoke to her again.

CAMEROTA (on camera): Did you consider going to the police?

L. TRAITZ: No. I was not raped. I didn't think there was anything I could do. It never dawned on me and I never went - you know, never tried to go after him for it.

J. TRAITZ: We had a little family discussion, OK? And felt, all of us, -- Linda, this guy -- this is Bill Cosby. He's got a public relations machine. You're a teenager, basically, there's no proof, you're going to just get destroyed.

CAMEROTA (voice-over): Through his lawyers, Cosby has consistently denied similar allegations, but he refused to elaborate in a recent interview with the Associated Press.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to ask about your name coming up in the news recently regarding this comedian.

BILL COSBY, COMEDIAN: No, no, we don't answer that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to ask you, with the persona that people know about Bill Cosby, should they believe anything differently about what --

COSBY: There is no comment about that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

COSBY: And I'll tell you why.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

COSBY: I think you were told, I don't want to compromise your integrity, but we don't - I don't talk about it.

CAMEROTA: In the years since 1969, Linda has been troubled. She's been arrested more than a dozen times for drug-related charges and spent several years in jail. A point Cosby's legal team emphasized when we contacted them for a response.

Cosby's attorney tells CNN, "Ms. Traitz's long criminal record for numerous offenses, include charges for criminal fraud, possession of Oxycodone, and cocaine possession, marijuana possession and possession of drug paraphernalia speaks for itself. As the old saying goes, consider the source."

CAMEROTA (on camera): Why should people believe you now?

L. TRAITZ: Because it's the truth. I mean it's the truth. I never went after him for it. It's - I never went after him for it. The drugs - the drug -- my drug history really started way, way, way after the situation with him.

J. TRAITZ: Her critical (ph) is going to be attacked. It's going to help maybe excuse this guy. I thought about it off and on for the last 45 years. You know, my sister's show real courage, but I came out here because - because - because I know my sister.

CAMEROTA (voice-over): Linda says she has not used drugs in six years. She says she came forward after hearing Barbara Bowman's story alleging that Cosby raped her. Linda was upset by online comments from those who don't believe Barbara Bowman.

L. TRAITZ: When I started reading the comments and I saw what people were saying about her and calling these women liars and money hungry and that he could never do this, and I didn't do it to go after Bill Cosby. I was doing it to - in defense of these women.

CAMEROTA: For Linda's brother Jim, it's personal.

J. TRAITZ: She's here for those women and I'm here for her, OK. That's the bottom line. And I don't - I want to see - I don't want to see this guy get away with it. I don't want to see -- God knows how many other times he's done it. I don't want to see him get away with it. And I don't want to see these women ridiculed by the huge Bill Cosby PR machine. It just isn't right.

CAMEROTA (on camera): What do you want to say to Bill Cosby?

L. TRAITZ: You know, by repeatedly denying and pretty much insinuating that these women are liars, it's re-assaulting them all over again. They had courage. These women had courage to come forward. Way more courage than I did. I'd like him to be held accountable for what he did to these women that he raped.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: And Alisyn Camerota is here with me live.

That was just a great interview. Top to bottom, the fact that big brother is sitting beside her this many years later, give me your overall feel for the integrity and the believability of both of them.

CAMEROTA: I found them credible. I found her credible. She wasn't seeking this. Journalists found her because she responded online to Barbara Bowman's first interviews. So she was only commenting on it saying, I believe her. This happened. And then journalists found her and sought her out. So she didn't want to come forward. Her brother was credible. And, by the way, off camera, her little brother was there also.

BANFIELD: Oh, really.

CAMEROTA: Her brother who is one year younger than she, and he remembers it all also and he backs up her story. She told people at the time that it happened and she told her co-workers she said as well.

BANFIELD: So one thing that wasn't on camera and I want to make sure people know our conversation off camera, there was this - you know, there are these -- there's a long list. She's got theft, battery, fraud, deception, impersonation in her background and that sounds pretty ugly when you're talking about a woman who lies.

CAMEROTA: Right.

BANFIELD: But what kind of lying was this about in her crime record?

CAMEROTA: She used - she was -- they are all drug-related. She had a drug problem.

BANFIELD: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And she used a fake I.D., she presented a fake I.D. to officers when they asked for her name and she gave them a fake name.

BANFIELD: So that's her - that's her fraud and her impersonation.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BANFIELD: Her deception and her lying was using a fake I.D. during a --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BANFIELD: OK. Well, that, I think, is significant in the picture.

CAMEROTA: It is significant.

BANFIELD: Reaction since the interview. It just aired this morning. It's only been a few hours and people have been all over you.

CAMEROTA: OK. So, social media has blown up and, you know, I've been surprised. Many people, I would say the majority, don't believe her. And it's women and men across the board. Women say things like, this is on Facebook, on "New Day's" Facebook page. You can go and check it out. They say, "I don't believe her." "She sounds like she's lying." Another woman says, "get the heck out of her with this cockamamie story. It looks like you're fighting to keep the lies straight." Another person says, "I feel this is all being orchestrated by someone that has paid these women." That is a common theme. People think they're being paid. She is not being paid. She has not gotten any money from Bill Cosby.

No journalists have given her any money. She is doing this because she is tired of the other women being ridiculed online and she wants to show solidarity.

BANFIELD: Barbara Bowman, Lou Ferrigno's wife, and many of them have come out and said, we're doing this because we're really sick of the vilification of those who've said and who aren't suing and aren't looking for money or monetary gain but they're being attacked as well. It is a story that just won't go away. And, again, there's headlines today, other media outlets finding other alleged victims.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BANFIELD: Great interview, Alisyn, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Thanks.

BANFIELD: Have a good weekend.

CAMEROTA: You too.

BANFIELD: So, no charges, we should say, have ever been filed against Bill Cosby in any of these cases. But is that something that could change? With each new accuser, and the piling on, is it possible that witness -- just witness evidence might be enough to actually bring about a charge? Are Cosby's problems far from over? My legal panel on that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Despite the long and growing list of women accusing Bill Cosby of sexual assault, that man has never been charged with a crime. And this is a point that his attorneys are very eager to remind everyone about by sending out the notes that they send out each time an accuser comes forward. The closest that Crosby came to giving merit to these allegations was settling a civil lawsuit with this woman, Andrea Constand. And she was a staffer on the women's basketball team at Temple University, which was Bill Cosby's alma mater. If the case had gone to trial, Constand's attorneys say that they had 13 women who were lined up to testify about being assaulted by Bill Cosby.

We should let you know that Mr. Cosby has been accused by people of performing these acts in six different states. They are California, Nevada, Colorado, Pennsylvania, New York and New Jersey.

I want to bring in CNN's legal analyst Paul Callan and HLN legal analyst and defense attorney Joey Jackson.

So here's where I started to wonder. If you have that many people who could provide witness testimony, absence the forensics, absence anything else in this case, it's witness against witness, or it's he said she, she, she, she, she said. Are there any of these state in which a statute of limitations might allow some kind of prosecution to come forward? Start with Callan.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: All right. Well, we've both been working on this and I know Joey's got a list of every -

JACKSON: Right.

CALLAN: Statute in the country. But here's the overview on it, OK? It used to be in most states five to seven years for rape, you have to bring the case or you lose your right to bring it. But then when all of these cases developed involving children, abuse of children and priests, you know, when the priest investigation started -

BANFIELD: And memories that were repressed.

CALLAN: And DNA came along and all of a sudden we realized that there might be somebody sitting in prison we could now link to an old rape, all of the legislatures started extending the statutes, making them much longer. But there's one rule that remained in place, and that is this, whatever the statute was when the rape occurred initially, if that had expired when the law was changed, you don't get the benefit of the long statute.

BANFIELD: So basically what you're saying is that, let's just say man rapes woman in '72.

CALLAN: Yes.

BANFIELD: That man would be grandfathered and protected by the '72 law?

CALLAN: Yes. Because by the time it was amended to make it longer, it had already expired.

BANFIELD: We have a long list of allegations that span from '67, my birthday, all the way to 2004.

JACKSON: We do indeed. Listen, Ashleigh, there's a couple of things that are significant here. We can talk about statute of limitations, but then even if the statute of limitations is met and you can move forward, the question becomes, what do you need to prove and how can you prove it? Because it's certainly a long time ago, right? And now you wouldn't have the - you have the absence of physical evidence.

When you have physical evidence in terms of DNA, it's one thing because now this corroboration, you could go to show, how did it get there? But when you don't have that, the issue then becomes, Ashleigh, even if you meet the statute, what can do you? Well, so it's not a he say/she say. There's a couple of important things that prosecutors do. One is, they look for people that you spoke to about this. We call it recent outcry testimony.

BANFIELD: You mean like a big brother and a little brother that spoke on "NEW DAY" this morning?

JACKSON: Exactly. Absolutely. There you go. Where you go to someone and you say, I can't believe it. What should I do? I don't want to move forward. You know, I'm tired of holding this in. and those witnesses, Ashleigh, are very compelling in front of the jury. The second thing, of course, not only the victim's testimony, but there are expert witnesses, Ashleigh, who address the fact that women don't feel comfortable, necessarily, at the outset moving forward, coming forward for a variety of reasons, not related to fabrication, not relating to the fact that they're just making it up as we go along, but because there are certain issues of violation that we're just not comfortable with speaking about now.

BANFIELD: It's called mortifying.

JACKSON: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: Can I just ask you one thing, guys, and I only have a minute left but I think this is really important. Oftentimes when you get to trial you'll hear both sides doing motions to suppress. And not bring in additional witnesses on prior bad acts or alleged bad acts.

JACKSON: Right.

BANFIELD: But when you can establish a pattern, I don't know, let's say like using a drug to effectuate the rape, could you effectively get all of those other women?

CALLAN: It depends on where the case is brought. States have different rules. New York has a rule.