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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

GOP Blasting Obama Immigration Plan; Ferguson Police Bracing For Widespread Unrest

Aired November 21, 2014 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to THE LEAD. You're looking right now at some strong conservative response to our Politics Lead today, live pictures, individuals in Las Vegas, Nevada, protesting President Obama's executive actions. Emperor Obama that sign says.

Joining us right now to talk about that, possible presidential hopeful and Kentucky Senator Rand Paul says he will not sit idly by and let the president bypass Congress and the constitution.

Attorneys general in both Texas and Oklahoma are threatening lawsuits even immigration reform supporter, former Florida Governor Jeb Bush, called President Obama's action ill advised.

We have with us in studio right now, former senator in 2012, Republican presidential candidate, Rick Santorum. He's also been a very vocal critic of this executive order. He now joins us exclusively with his perspective.

Senator, thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate it. So let's say that you're president right now. There are at least 11 million estimated undocumented immigrants in the country. What do you do with them?

RICK SANTORUM (R), FORMER U.S. SENATOR: There is a country of laws. I'm the son of an immigrant. My father came to this country seven years after his father came. He couldn't come. They had passed immigration law in the interim.

He had to go through the first seven years of his life. And I remember asking my dad about that. I said it must have been really hard. He said, you know, America was worth the wait. It's worth doing it the right way.

TAPPER: I understand the theoretical argument you're making --

SANTORUM: It's not theoretical. It's real.

TAPPER: But there are 11 million undocumented workers, at least 11 million. Here now, what do you do?

SANTORUM: The answer is you enforce the law.

TAPPER: And deport them all? SANTORUM: You enforce the law on employment. You enforce the law as I think the president is right with respect to prioritizing removals. I think it's important to prioritize removals. The president hasn't done that. There are 361,000 people with deportation orders here, criminal aliens with deportation orders in this country, who are running around free, 361,000.

So the idea that he's following through with what he's saying, he's not following through with deportations and removals. He's not enforcing the law on employers or removals. You start enforcing the law, and secure the border then you can begin to talk about how we'll deal with immigration --

TAPPER: So you would aggressively prosecute employers who hire illegal undocumented workers. You would deport. You would prioritize the ones who are criminal first, but like eventually get to everyone? That's what you would do.

SANTORUM: Look, we are a nation of laws. We have the highest levels of immigration in the history of the country, 20 years. This 20-year period, more legal people have come into this country. We now have more people born in this country who are not -- more living in this country who were not born in the history of the country.

It's not that we've turned lady liberty around and suggested we're not a nation of immigrant. We're at an all-time high a nation of immigrants. So don't play the game that we're not being generous and receiving the poor. Most of the people who are coming here are not skilled workers. Most of them are unskilled workers.

And that's the real travesty here. What the president has done is legalize some 5 million workers, almost all of them are unskilled, in a labor market that is not demanding unskilled workers right now, where labor market -- where wages are falling. Median income is falling.

You want to talk about compassion. How about compassion for the American worker? How about somebody who is trying to make ends meet working two and three jobs who now has 5 million more people competing for that job?

TAPPER: Well, let me ask you because you just talked about the compassion issue. What is your argument when somebody says for instance the Catholic Church has been very, very active in the immigration reform movement?

When they say what President Obama is doing is he is saying he is not going to deport the parents of people who are in this country illegally. That's pro-family. That's an argument I've heard a lot of Catholic leaders make.

SANTORUM: Yes, I would say this. I would say what the president has done is unconstitutional. I understand why the president wants to do it. I understand that he might in working with Congress get some sort of law passed that would protect certain people in this country from being deported. But what the president did was wrong. What the president did was set a precedent so when President Tapper becomes president, he can decide, you know what, I don't like the endangered species act, I'm going to defer prosecution on any endangered species. Why would -- what the Republicans have to do is stop him from exercising --

TAPPER: How?

SANTORUM: Well, number one, I think you have to file a lawsuit is absolutely the right thing to do. Number two, you can use the power of the purse. I mean, there are plenty of instances where fee based, and this is what Dana was talking about, where fee based appropriations have been held by Congress to be eligible to be retained and not be able to be used by the administration.

I think trying to stop the president, and I know other people are talking other measures, but the most important thing is for the Congress to say, look, we are not going to do anything.

TAPPER: Even risk a government shutdown?

SANTORUM: This is about liberty in America. This is about a president who has said that he is above the law, above the constitution, and doing something contrary to his remarks about Reagan and Bush, Reagan and Bush talked about implementing the law that Congress had already passed.

Congress had already said this is what we want to do. Reagan and Bush both worked with Congress. This was not something Congress -- Congress supported it. It was very narrowly targeted and that's what presidents do. They implement laws and they work with Congress to do so.

This is where a president is saying you're not going to act, I'm going to act, I'm going to force you this to doing something that the constitution doesn't allow me to do. That is a serious encroachment on liberty and the Congress has to stop it.

TAPPER: Senator Rick Santorum, thank you so much. Always good to have a fellow Pennsylvanian in the room.

Coming up, he says he knows how the grand jury will go in the case against Officer Darren Wilson and he believes there will not be any indictment. So why is he so confident? I will ask Missouri state representative and head of the policeman's union, Jeff Roorda, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. The National Lead, the decision on whether to indict a Ferguson, Missouri police officer in the shooting death of 18-year-old Michael Brown, that decision could come any minute now frankly.

To give you a sense of just how nervous the community is about what could happen, at least one nearby school district has already canceled classes for early next week ahead of the Thanksgiving holiday and amid this anxious wait for answers, we've also learned that the officer involved in the shooting may be -- may be -- ready to step down.

Sources tell CNN that Darren Wilson is in the final stages of negotiations with the city to resign, but he will not make a move until the grand jury ruling is in. CNN's Evan Perez is in the show me state of Missouri. Evan, the grand jury is still meeting right now?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Jake, we don't know if they're still in the building. We know that they came in here today to meet for what was supposed to be their last session and we expected their decision would come at any moment.

We know that the local authorities are bracing what they say is for widespread unrest and obviously Officer Wilson is also waiting for this decision because everything hinges on that decision, whether or not he steps down hinges on that decision.

He has been holding back simply because he wanted to make sure that he didn't affect the grand jury's deliberations. He wanted to make sure that he didn't suggest that perhaps he had any blame here in the shooting of Michael Brown.

TAPPER: All right, Evan Perez in Missouri, thank you so much.

Despite the many efforts to keep the peace in Ferguson once the grand jury decision is revealed, one state official is afraid those efforts will not be enough.

I'm joined now by Missouri State Representative Jeff Roorda. He is also the business manager for the St. Louis Police Officers Association. Representative Roorda, good to see you as always. Thanks for being with us.

We've been told that the grand jury decision could come today and could be announced perhaps on Sunday. You told me when you recently saw Wilson it seemed to you that he seemed confident in the grand jury process in the justice system.

So he didn't say that expressly to you, but to clarify, you think that Wilson thinks he will not be indicted, right?

JEFF ROORDA (D), MISSOURI STATE HOUSE: Well, my opinions are my own, Jake. I don't believe based on what I know that Officer Wilson will be indicted. I do not speak for Officer Wilson or his legal defense team.

I don't know what their anticipation is other than, you know, we're all police and we all believe in the criminal justice system and that we find our way to justice in this country.

TAPPER: Why do you think that he will not be indicted?

ROORDA: Well, I don't know any more about the forensics and ballistics than anybody else does, but to me, they tell a story that is consistent with Officer Wilson's public statements that it was a kill or be killed situation and that he acted in self-defense.

TAPPER: The grand jury of course is not deciding whether or not Officer Wilson is guilty. We need to remind our viewers that. The grand jury is deciding whether or not there is a probable cause that a crime occurred and that it's more likely than not that the defendant committed the crime. Now, I want to you listen to some of the witness statements and get your reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIFFANY MITCHELL: The jerked as if it was hit from behind and he puts his hands up like this and the cop continued to fire until he just dropped down to the ground.

PIAGET CRENSHAW: When they were running, they weren't reaching for anything. Just seemed like he was running for his life and just got shot and turned around, still didn't try to reach for anything. He put his hands into the air him compliant and he still got shot down like a dog.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That last one if you couldn't see it, it was the construction workers who were saying that Michael Brown had his hands in the air. What do you say to those who say those witness testimonies constitute sufficient evidence to justify a trial, a day in court?

ROORDA: Well, you know, Bob McCulloch is charged and elected by the people to bring this case before the grand jury. He is at least public reports have been that his intentions are to put every witness, every piece of evidence in front of the grand jury and let them weigh the evidence as they would in any other case.

I think that that's a prudent course, but I don't think from what I know of the physical evidence that the statements that you just played on the air there match up with the physical evidence.

TAPPER: And I know that a lot of legal experts say that witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, but it's still a lot of people who say they saw this and that Michael Brown's hands were up. I understand you don't agree with that.

I do want to ask you about the aftermath because a concerted effort is being made to keep protests peaceful. Once this grand jury decision is out, community organizers have been trying to work with police.

We've seen appeals from Michael Brown's father and Attorney General Eric Holder calling for calm. Do you think that is enough, are you worried?

ROORDA: I'm quite worried. I have the dubious charge of representing 1150 St. Louis police officers and the airport police officers. We are going to be on the front lines and I worry every moment of every day about their safety.

You know, there may be some people with peaceful intentions out there, but the truth of the matter is that for two weeks following the initial protests, every night we violent attempts to injure or kill police officers.

And I'm quite worried that we are going to see that again in the wake of a grand jury decision whether it's an indictment or not indictment.

TAPPER: Well, let's hope your fears are unfounded. We're all heaping and praying for peace. State Representative Jeff Roorda, thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

ROORDA: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: Coming up, he says a lack of indictment will cause the simmering anger among African-Americans to boil over. So what does Congressman Emanuel Cleaver want to see happen if the grand jury does not indict? I'll ask him next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. We're going to continue now with our National Lead. Will Ferguson, Missouri erupt in protests if the grand jury does not charge Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown?

Once a decision is reached, law enforcement will be given 48-hours' notice before a public announcement is made. Officials in Missouri are hoping for calm, but bracing for violence if Wilson is not indicted especially.

Three people were arrested last night after clashes with police. Democratic Congressman Emanuel Cleaver of Missouri is live in Kansas City to talk more about what is coming down in Ferguson, Missouri.

Congressman Cleaver, thanks for joining us. You've been very vocal about the killing of Michael Brown. In a recent op-ed, you said if Wilson is not charged, quote, "a simmering anger among African- Americans will surely materialize."

Congressman, I know none of us have inside the grand jury room except for 12 people and the prosecutor, but you really don't see any possibility that Officer Wilson feared for his life when he took the actions he did?

REPRESENTATIVE EMANUEL CLEAVER (D), MISSOURI: I was Mayor of Kansas City, the president of the police board. I think people are very, very skittish about indicting police officers no matter what. So I think that's one problem.

And the other problem, there are other problems, for example this grand jury can return what is called a no true bill certainly if slightly more than half of the 23 members of the grand jury say that there is in reason to take this any further.

Doesn't mean it won't go any further because there is, of course, a federal investigation, FBI investigation, also going on. But I don't think that when you have the target of the investigation, Officer Wilson actually testified before the grand jury.

And I think as most attorneys will tell you that it is highly unusual just as it is highly unusual that the prosecutor will not also lead the jurors. In this case, they were just given information and they can come to their own conclusion.

Most people that I know don't believe that there will be any kind of an indictment. Now, there will be protests whether there is an indictment or not.

TAPPER: Right. But I guess, my question is, just hearing what you've heard, do you really think that there is just no chance. It's not possible that Officer Wilson feared for his life?

CLEAVER: Well, I don't know whether the officer feared for his life or not. You know, being a police officer is very, very difficult work. And I think some people are well equipped for it and some are not. We have police chiefs here in Kansas City who were on the force for 25, 30, 35 years and never pulled a gun.

I think it depends on your disposition. Now, Michael Brown was a big kid. You know, if you look at some of the footage again that you just showed, you can see construction workers, white construction workers, I hate to do this.

But that's the reality, who were looking at it and yelling he had his hands up, why did you shoot? But in spite of that, I think we'll have a difficult time getting an indictment.

TAPPER: You said that you believe law enforcement made mistakes in the way they've handled this case. Last night, the chief of police in Ferguson told CNN's Erin Burnett that he's not going to resign. He'll stick it out. Should he resign do you think?

CLEAVER: Well, something has to happen with the police department. Now, if the police chief chooses not to resign, there is a Justice Department investigation under way.

Now, what happens with these Justice Department investigations of law enforcement agencies is that they May end up having to sign some kind of consent decree which -- maybe it's the best thing that could happen -- might force the Ferguson Police Department to merge with the county police department.

And allow the St. Louis County Police Department to actually be the law enforcing agent there.

TAPPER: I think that actually happened with Officer Wilson's previous employer, I think the Jennings police.

CLEAVER: That's right.

TAPPER: To basically merge them. I want to ask you before you go. Some of the protests back in August were violent. We saw looting, people were shot. People were attacked. Yes, the people -- it was a minority. Most of the protesters were peaceful, but there were violent people there. What needs to be done this time to make sure that those violent people, the minority, don't ruin it for the vast majority of peaceful protesters?

CLEAVER: First of all, there are protesters who are in training even at this moment in churches in that area, nonviolent direct action training. They have been trained in ways many of us went through in the 1960s, 1970s to be nonviolent no matter what happens.

You sit there, somebody uses the "n" word, you still have to sit there and not react and they're going to be fine. They're going to do the right thing. They will protest as is their constitutional right, but they won't be violent.

This past August, and I think -- I don't think I'm speaking out of school. We had anarchists who had come into Ferguson. We had gang members from --

TAPPER: We lost Congressman Cleaver's signal right at 5:00. Anyway, that's it for THE LEAD.

I'm Jake Tapper.

I turn you over to Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM.

Have a good weekend.