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CNN TONIGHT

Bill Cosby Rape Allegations; More Snow on the Way in Buffalo; Rescued from Monster Storm; Obama's Executive Order on Immigration

Aired November 19, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT, I'm Don Lemon.

It is the interview everyone is still talking about. Cosby accuser Joan Tarshis is back with me tonight. She's got a lot to say about what happened after our last conversation. You're going to hear from her in just a moment.

Plus, more snow on the way right now in Buffalo, where they're still digging out after last night's monster storm.

And in Ferguson, the grand jury is on the verge of making its decision as police and protesters brace for what happens next.

We've got a whole lot to get to tonight but first I want to take a moment to say something about my interview last night with Joan Tarshis, who accuses Bill Cosby of raping her when she was 19.

As a victim myself, I would never suggest that any victim could have prevented a rape. And I mean no disrespect to Joan, or to any of the people who are brave enough to come forward and tell their stories. I know that first hand.

If my question to her struck anyone as insensitive, I am sorry as that was certainly not my intention. And if we're going to be honest, and have an honest show, though, about this subject, some of these questions are going to be disturbing because rape is a disturbing crime. It's not funny.

And I'm glad to have Joan Tarshis back with me tonight on tonight's show. Also joining me, Sunny Hostin, CNN legal analyst and a former federal prosecutor, and Brian Stelter, CNN senior media correspondent and host of "RELIABLE SOURCES."

Joan, we certainly caused a -- a stir with our interview last night. How are you doing?

JOAN TARSHIS, BILL COSBY ACCUSER: I'm doing fine, how are you doing?

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: I'm doing very well. I think -- I think, you know, maybe we got a little bit too friendly, so to speak, because we had been talking before the show. And so, you know, if I offended you, I don't think I did, then you know I'm sorry for that. TARSHIS: You didn't offend me at all. And it was -- it was very

casual. It was kind of like well, let's go have a cup of coffee and talk about what could have been happening.

LEMON: Yes.

TARSHIS: And --

LEMON: So -- so, Joan, I -- listen, as I said I think that sometimes things are uncomfortable. But you have to ask questions and I believe -- and I believe every journalist should be able to ask questions even if those questions are uncomfortable.

But I want to ask you about this, too, the power of social media. The impact of your story, of you coming forward and other women coming forward because last night, NBC said that they cancelled the show that's in development with Cosby. Netflix postponed their Cosby plans. TV Land has quietly removed Cosby from the show, from reruns from its programming schedule.

What do you think of all of these new developments, Joan?

TARSHIS: Do you want me to be perfectly honest?

LEMON: Yes, absolutely.

TARSHIS: Well, to be dishonest would be to say, gee, I'm really upset about it. But to be perfectly honest, I'm happy, I feel like justice has been served. It can't be served in the court of justice, but it's served in -- in the court of the national conglomerations realized that keeping him in the public eye would do them no service.

I was thinking of dropping Netflix myself and maybe just subscribing for two days when "House of Cards" came on, and then dropping it and not really watching NBC.

COSTELLO: Yes. Joan, we have a lot to talk to -- I have a lot to talk to you about. So stand by, OK. I want to conclude you in the rest of this conversation but I want to bring my other panelist in.

Sunny Hostin is here.

Sunny, you know, we're now hearing from Bill Cosby's attorney, right? Denying all allegations made by Janice Dickinson. Janice Dickinson is the latest and she's certainly the highest profile one to come out.

Here's the statement. "Janice Dickinson's story accusing Bill Cosby of rape is a lie. There is a glaring contradiction between what she is claiming now and for the first time in what she wrote in her book, her own book, and what she told the media back in 2002."

Does he have any legal recourse, any form of defamation, because he's saying none of this is true especially with Janice Dickinson?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, I don't know that we've heard from Bill Cosby, right? We're hearing from his publicist. We -- you just read a statement from his lawyer where on the other side, we're hearing from his very brave women, I think Joan is very brave. I think Barbara Bowman is very brave.

We're hearing from women telling what I believe seems to be a story that sounds very much alike. I was drugged and I was raped.

And Don, you know that you are my friend, I like you very much. But these women have opened themselves up to questions, like your question yesterday which is why didn't you fight back? And that's a question that a lot of women get asked all the time.

LEMON: OK. But hang on, but that's not what I asked her. We were talking about people who did not believe her story. And part of that was from -- I didn't say I didn't believe her story. I probably shouldn't say this, but I do believe her story.

HOSTIN: No, no.

LEMON: So that's not -- so, anyway, I've got --

HOSTIN: But my point is, one of the questions to her and to other women -- your question, in my view, and again, you're my friend, I say this with love, was I think an inappropriate question. I think a very probing question, and the question in my mind was, why did you not fight him? Why did you not fight back?

And that is a question that many, many rape victims get asked. It's sort of victim blaming, it's victim shaming, and I want to hear from Bill Cosby, because if these women are brave enough to open themselves to the public, to open themselves to public and media scrutiny, then he should be doing the same thing.

LEMON: Sunny, I don't -- and I appreciate what you're saying. I in no way was blaming the victim, and I don't think even Joan thinks that. I understand that people were saying --

HOSTIN: I don't think that was your intent.

LEMON: That wasn't my intention at all. And so again, but I think people do -- I think you're right, these women have opened themselves up.

HOSTIN: Absolutely.

LEMON: To this. And I think that they should -- but also they're very brave. And they come on and they're honest about it. And that -- we can talk about things. Because we should not be castigating each other. We should allow each other a leeway to make mistakes. You cannot be judgmental of every single person, every single question, we would not get anything accomplished. How does conversation evolve?

HOSTIN: I think that's true. And I think that that is why we should hear from Bill Cosby.

LEMON: To continue the conversation. HOSTIN: We should hear from Bill Cosby, and silence in a lot of ways

is an answer.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: You know, for the last day, I've been playing phone tag with Cosby's personal publicist, unable to reach him, and Cosby himself has said nothing. Cosby has had chances to be interviewed and (INAUDIBLE).

LEMON: Hold on one second. Go ahead, Joan, because I hear you're seeing. What do you mean?

TARSHIS: I mean, I was just agreeing with you, actually. I mean, I'm the person that was addressed last night. And I would be the first person to feel if it was an offensive question. And it wasn't. And I didn't feel that way. And I didn't feel like you were in any way blaming me. I know when I'm being blamed for something. And that was the furthest thing from my mind last night.

LEMON: Thank you, Joan, for saying that. And again, that was never my intention.

Brian, can we talk more about TV Land, the reports, and the repercussions that are going through possibly NBC and on and on. Does anybody owe Cosby any money?

STELTER: Yes, this has a whirl one day because as you mentioned the Netflix program, that it was going to premiere next week, not going to premier anymore next week. The NBC program in development not going to developed anymore. Not going to go forward. And now tonight all the old episodes of "The Cosby Show" have disappeared from the TV Land Channel's schedule.

Even the Web page they have for the show just got deleted. It was kind of rather abrupt thing they did.

There is one other channel, the show is still on by the way. Centric and other channels owned by the same company that owns TV Land, but TV Land has wiped it off the schedule. Just another sign of the corporate reaction to these stories.

LEMON: It's interesting because it's -- Joan's story happened 45 years ago, some of them happened 30 years ago.

HOSTIN: Right.

LEMON: And everyone is saying there is a rush to judgment. But this has been a long time that some people -- and Joan, you know, I have read accounts and you talked about your friend who you've been telling the story to for a while and you haven't backed down about it. But some people are still calling it a rush to judgment.

My question to Brian is, how does this affect him financially or affect him brand-wise with Bill Cosby?

STELTER: Well, he was still and still does make millions of dollars a year from these "Cosby Show" repeats. And he was standing to make more millions, more millions from this new show on NBC. Something like a Netflix stand-up special, not as big a deal. You know, it's a one-time thing, it helps boost his brand more broadly.

But that NBC program could have been very lucrative for everybody involved. Including Bill Cosby. And I do believe he'll be paid out in some way because NBC is not going forward with the show. That's one of the strange details about this. You know, with a contract like that, if they're developing a show with you, and then they walk away from you, they're probably going to have to pay you to walk away.

LEMON: Go ahead, Sunny.

HOSTIN: But Brian, you're the media specialist here. What does a Bill Cosby do in a situation like this? Does he -- it's too late to get in front of it, right? Because the train has left the station.

STELTER: Yes. Yes.

HOSTIN: What do you do? Because I'm reading Twitter, I'm speaking to so many people about this, and by and large the response is, why is he being so silent? No answer is an answer.

LEMON: OK, I know you addressed it with him. I would imagine that he is worried about financial retribution, and I don't know if he can. If there's going to be a civil suit.

HOSTIN: I don't know if he can.

STELTER: Could it be legal, though, as well? Not about -- not about past crimes but could someone bring legal action if he was to acknowledge any misbehavior in any way?

LEMON: Well, I don't know if he has to come on television and say, I -- that I did something wrong. I think he -- he can come on television and talk about what he is dealing with. What he is going through, what it's like for his family. And he can say, I don't want to address these allegations because I don't think that there is any truth to them.

HOSTIN: Yes. That they lack merit. That's right.

LEMON: But people want to see him and they want to see him talk about it.

STELTER: I'm just guessing here, we're talking about a man who is 77 years old.

LEMON: Yes.

STELTER: Maybe he's not all that comfortable existing in this 2014 media.

HOSTIN: Well, that's really strange because we know that he has the Netflix special coming up.

STELTER: Good point. Yes. HOSTIN: He's still doing stand-up. My understanding --

LEMON: But he controls that.

HOSTIN: He still has -- he still has something going on in Vegas. He still has many stand-ups. So he's got to be -- he has clarity of mind.

LEMON: But Sunny, you know that sitting across from a journalist, is different than doing a routine that you know and that you practiced.

STELTER: Woody Allen is an example. We haven't seen Woody Allen --

LEMON: Joan -- Joan, I have to ask you, I have to ask you, though. What would you like to hear, if anything, from Bill Cosby?

TARSHIS: What I would like to hear I don't think I'm ever going to hear. What I really wanted to hear is really what is going on now, is the public poll where his -- his net worth in terms of the public is really bottoming out. I think people are really finally beginning to realize that all that glitters is not gold. And there may be another darker side to Mr. Cosby than they were led to believe all these years. I don't think he can say anything to me.

LEMON: Go ahead.

TARSHIS: I don't, I mean, I think -- well, I never heard any remorse in the times after each episode that we had together. Each incident. And when he called after them I heard no remorse in his voice. So I think it would be disingenuous for him to all of a sudden apologize or say, I'm sorry, I was -- I was wrong. I don't think the man has it in his nature.

STELTER: I think the signal we saw today, Don, Marty Singer coming out with that statement about Janice Dickinson. Marty Singer is not just any attorney. He is a pit bull entertainment lawyer. He is the guy you hire when you believe you're being liable to defame. Am I right about that?

HOSTIN: You're absolutely right. And --

LEMON: And Janice Dickinson, we have not heard from her. I wonder if there was a seized and deceased or something because we haven't heard anything --

HOSTIN: We haven't heard from her since she gave that interview.

LEMON: Since she -- right.

HOSTIN: But I think what's interesting, and Joan, correct me if I'm wrong. These women, the statute of limitations has run. You can't sue Bill Cosby at this point, isn't that right? So you're here telling your story to tell your story.

TARSHIS: Right, I have no intention of suing Bill Cosby. I turned down tabloid money. I'm not in this to make -- I don't have a book deal in the works. I don't have a movie that I'm writing about it. No network has come and said, let's do a movie of the week about you. I wouldn't be interested in that.

LEMON: And Joan --

HOSTIN: Then why hire Marty Singer, right?

LEMON: Yes. Well, yes.

Joan, thank you. When you come out to (INAUDIBLE), we'll have some coffee, and we'll talk more. Thank you very much. OK?

TARSHIS: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: All right. And thanks to the rest of my guests, as well.

Sunny, you'll be back with us.

Thank you, Brian.

STELTER: Thanks.

LEMON: When we come right back, Buffalo's monster storm is not finished with the city yet. More snow is coming tonight. I'm going to talk to the members of that college basketball team stranded in the storm for more than 24 hours and finally rescued today.

Plus, President Obama is unveiling his immigration plan. He's going to do it tomorrow night. Republicans are furious. Newt Gingrich tells you why.

And the Ferguson grand jury could make its decision on Friday. What happens next?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Breaking news tonight, Buffalo bracing for one -- a one-two punch and brutal weather. On top of nearly six feet -- that's right, I said six feet of snow that buried much of the city yesterday. Another two to three feet could fall tonight and tomorrow.

Goodness gracious.

Martin Savidge back out in it for us this evening. And then we also have Chad Myers in the CNN Severe Weather Center.

Of course we're going to start with Chad out -- I mean, with Martin, excuse me, out in that weather.

So, you know, you got the first look at south Buffalo today, the hardest hit areas. What did you see, Martin?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we saw a lot of stuff that looks like what we can show you right now. This is still south Buffalo. Not quite as bad as maybe about a mile away from here, but take a look at this. Look at the big dig that these folks have been involved in. It's taken them all day to try to get the backside of that minivan exposed.

They eventually gave up. They realized that, of course, they're not going anywhere. Then they tried the other vehicle in the front here. Now that was another effort. But you know, look at that. If you try to walk through the front, this is -- this is the path to get to your door. This is -- you know, again, this is not the hardest hit area, but the snow is just incredible.

The city is bringing in another 150 snow plows from outside areas. The death toll unfortunately now stands at seven. They have made progress on the main thoroughfares. This is the National Guard, they're coming at us right now. And they have begun as well as the contractors hauling more and more snow.

They've got to get it out of here, forget the plowing. They've got to lift it and get it out of here and haul it away. They're hard at work on it, but as you say more snow on the way -- Don.

LEMON: Yes, and I'm pretty sure, Marty, that they burned their budget for the entire year.

Chad, you know, the south suburbs, Buffalo, already gotten five to six feet of snow.

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Correct.

LEMON: Can't believe I'm saying that. The second wave is starting now.

MYERS: It is.

LEMON: What are you expecting?

MYERS: It snows all night and it doesn't stop until noon or 1:00 o'clock tomorrow afternoon with 20 more inches of snow. I know people want to go out there and dig out their cars, that's their first priority.

But what your first priority should be tonight, Cheektowaga, West Seneca, Lancaster, Depew, is go dig out your fire hydrant because if something happens on your street you don't want your firefighters waste some 10 minutes trying to find that fire hydrant. You know where it is, go dig it out. It's the best thing you can do for your community right now.

Take a look. Sixty inches of snow. Cheektowaga, West Seneca, I went to East Seneca Elementary right there. Clinton Street, as well. So I know this area quite well and it snowed 60 inches in one spot and literally, Don, three miles away it snowed two inches because the snow stayed in the same spot. That lake-effect snow band stayed in the same spot the entire time.

Lake-effect snow. Warm water, it's the lake. OK, it's relative, it's 43 degrees, a couple of days ago it was 47. And eventually it will freeze. As soon as it freezes the lake-effect is over because no steam comes off of frozen lake. But for now, it is still coming down and it's going to come down tonight. Cheektowaga, the winner at 65 inches of snow. Lancaster out there at 63.

Here's where we are now. The next storm system making snow pretty much in Lake Erie right now. But it will come on shore the next hour. And I've even seen some lightning in some of this data, so thunder snow tonight for at least a couple of hours. And that's the heavy stuff. You can four to five inches per hour. If it snows for four inches an hour for 10 hours, I don't have to do the math, that's a lot of snow -- Don.

LEMON: Yes. Chad, thank you. Also Martin Savidge, thank you, as well.

The Niagara University Women's Basketball team, safe and sound tonight after more than 24 hours, stranded on their team bus in the middle of Buffalo's monster snowstorm.

Remember they talked to me last night just a few hours before they're rescued by the state -- New York State Troopers. Here they are today.

Joining me now via Skype, Kendra Faustin, head coach of the Niagara University Women's Basketball team, along with three of her players. She's got a lot of players but we're going to talk to Tiffany Corselli, Jamie Sherburne, and Val McQuade.

We love the rest of you guys, but we only have room for three. All right? So -- in unison, how are you doing?

UNIDENTIFIED STUDENTS: Good.

LEMON: OK. Great. All right, so you and the team are back home safe now after being stranded for -- on the bus. Twenty-four hours in this record-breaking Buffalo snow. And I spoke to you when you -- you guys were all in the thick of it. So talk to me about what happened last night about being rescued.

KENDRA FAUSTIN, NIAGARA UNIVERSITY WOMEN'S BASKETBALL TEAM HEAD COACH: Yes, well, it was a relief. You know, as we were getting out of the bus and on the ATV vehicles, you know, really seeing the whole scene of what was going on, and how intense it was. It was -- we're blessed to not be in that anymore. It was -- it was really -- the storm was something you just can't explain unless you were in it.

LEMON: So, Val, when you finally saw the rescue people, were you like thank goodness?

VAL MCQUADE, NIAGARA UNIVERSITY WOMEN'S BASKETBALL TEAM: Yes, I was pretty relieved. Luckily they could get us out and we were just worried about the other people that were stuck. And they wanted to make sure that they were getting help, too.

LEMON: Yes, because they had been helping -- as I understand that they have been helping other people. They even helped deliver a baby, one firefighter? What did you guys think of that, Jamie?

JAMIE SHERBURNE, NIAGARA UNIVERSITY WOMEN'S BASKETBALL TEAM: I think that's when it kind of got more serious when they started doing it, this was actually real. You know, they're finding people unconscious in the car, and that a baby was born. So that was when we started getting nervous and stuff.

LEMON: Yes. So, hey, Tiffany, raise your hand, where's Tiff again? Tiff, in the cap, you had power, you guys had power, you had heat and you had access to social media. Were you aware just how much a storm was affecting people?

TIFFANY CORSELLI, NIAGARA UNIVERSITY WOMEN'S BASKETBALL TEAM: Yes, we were aware -- we could see a little bit out of our bus. But from social media, we were kept updated and upbeat from our family and friends.

LEMON: Yes. So, guys, I want to play a little bit of the video that you saved just for our show. Your rap, here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One, two, three.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: So you guys made the best of that. I guess you had to do that. You had to make the best of it in that situation, right? Whoever wants to answer.

FAUSTIN: Yes, that's where social media was a blessing. In that, you know, we could get -- we were really energized, we had something to focus on. We could really feel prayers, love, thoughts from a lot of people. Our friends, our family, new friends that we certainly have made. And it was really energizing for us.

LEMON: Yes. So, Coach, so many people are still dealing with this epic storm. As you think about the team and how they weather this, you know, the last 48 hours, you must be really proud of your team but you must be thinking about others, as well.

FAUSTIN: Yes, we were keeping tabs. And it sounds like most people that were stuck in our area have been -- have been rescued. I talked to the bus driver this morning. He stayed back with the bus. And he got out late this morning. So I spoke with him. And certainly thanked him. And you know, just thinking about -- not just that stretch of the interstate but you know all the people that are stuck in their homes. And we're thinking about them and certainly praying for them.

LEMON: All right, guys, thank you. As I'm thanking you, can you do your cheer for me again?

FAUSTIN: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One, two, three.

LEMON: Oh, you guys are great. I'm so happy that every -- that everyone is OK. And say hello to your kids, will you, for me, Kendra?

FAUSTIN: I will.

LEMON: Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Bye.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

LEMON: President Obama is setting himself up for a major battle with Republicans on Capitol Hill. Tomorrow he'll announce an executive order on immigration changing the rules for undocumented immigrants. Is he going too far?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: President Barack Obama unveils a major executive order on immigration tomorrow night. It's a plan that will affect millions of undocumented immigrants in America. And it's already started a battle with Capitol Hill Republicans.

Joining me now to discuss, Newt Gingrich, CNN contributor and former speaker of the House, and Jay Carney, CNN political commentator.

Thanks guys for joining me.

First to you, Mr. Gingrich. President Obama will announce in primetime tomorrow night that he is taking executive action on immigration reform. This really puts him on a collision course with Republicans. Is the president going too far?

NEWT GINGRICH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, the president on 22 different occasions is on videotape saying he does not have this authority, 22 times. I believe this will be the biggest mistake of his presidency. And I believe -- remember, the country just voted against his policies two weeks ago by overwhelming numbers. The country has said in every poll that I have seen they don't want him to do this. And the brand new elected Congress has said do not do this.

So this is probably the greatest arrogance of power we have seen certainly in modern times and it's going to be an enormous mistake.

LEMON: So why is this different than when Presidents Reagan and George H.W. Bush acted on immigration with executive action?

GINGRICH: Well, there were two huge differences. One was that the Congress in both those cases was in favor of the action. They were actually implementing the -- Simpson was only acted 1986. And there was no objection to them doing it. The other is, the two actions combined affected ultimately 140,000 people.

Here you have a president in the opposite situation. The Congress is opposed. The country is opposed. And it might affect five million people? There is no comparison of the two events.

LEMON: Yes. Do you agree with that, Jay? JAY CARNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I agree that this is of

a magnitude that's different from past precedents, but there are past precedents. And there is, I think, ample legal precedent and legal analysis that demonstrate the president is able to do this and has the authority to do this. I think it's -- so, you know, there are risks associated with this. There is no question that there's going to be a political confrontation with Congress over this.

I think there is a bigger risk for the president that would have come had he gone back on his word, having asked pro-immigration reform advocates to be patient for a year and a half while he tried to get the Congress to pass immigration reform. The Senate passed it with a large majority including Republican senators. And then John Boehner kept saying he wanted to move forward on it but ultimately refused to do so.

And the president said earlier this year that if that happened he would, by the end of the year act with his executive authority. It puts him in a -- you know a direct confrontation with this congress but I think it would have been worse for him politically and I think certainly worse for those 5 million people...

LEMON: But clearly...

CARNEY: If he had not acted at all.

LEMON: He's going to the American people and that's why he's giving, giving this during prime time. And I just want to put the polls up because according to an NCB Wall Street Journal poll, 48 percent oppose President Obama taking executive action, while 38 percent support it. So, you know, so, it's not exactly the will of the people. I want you to listen to what the president said, and this was just this last February.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am the president of the United States. I'm not the emperor of the United States. My job is to execute laws that are passed. And congress, right now, has not changed what I consider to be a broken immigration system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So the question is, by going on prime time is he really reaching the people that he needs to reach in order to come up with a sort of compromise on...

CARNEY: What?

LEMON: And let me -- before you guys answer this, let me just read this. The reason I ask you is because, this statement is from the House Speaker John Boehner's office. This is if Emperor Obama, because he said in that thing, I'm not an emperor -- "If Emperor Obama ignores the American people and announces an amnesty plan that he himself has said over and over again exceeds his constitutional authority he will cement his legacy of lawlessness and ruin the chances for congressional action on this issue -- and many others."

CARNEY: You know, Don, if I could just say, this kind of hyperbolic rhetoric, which we hear on TV as well as issued from statements from congress. It's just, it's just ridiculous, first of all the president is not changing the law, he will be issuing an executive authority that will temporarily grant the third action to additional on this, undocumented people in this country, building on those dreamers who already received this treatment. What he always said, earlier while I was still in the White House, was he didn't have the authority as president, because he is not an emperor or not a king to basically change the law permanently. Only congress can do that. And he said earlier, right after the election, the midterms, that if that as soon as congress is willing to act and act in a way that comprehensive way for the immigration system, it will do away with the impact of this executive order.

LEMON: All right, and Newt is shaking his hand -- his head in disagreement.

NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: This violates every base of the American constitution, if you read Hamilton's federal's paper number 69. He goes a great length to distinguish King George's power from a president of the states. I don't have to write after item, he says the king is absolute the president is under the law. This president said earlier this year, he's not an emperor. Now, tomorrow night he is gonna announce he is an emperor.

LEMON: Yeah.

GINGRICH: This is an enormously dangerous step, because if he can redefine the law for 5 million people, what's the next president capable of doing?

LEMON: OK.

GINGRICH: Can presidents cannot be allowed to do this.

CARNEY: Newt all you do was restate the same hyperbolic, rhetoric but if the substance Tivoli (ph)

GINGRICH: It's his rhetoric.

LEMON: OK.

CARNEY: You don't well as I do, that this goes to the courts, has the legal authority.

GINGRICH: Jay.

LEMON: Jay.

(CROSSTALK)

GINGRICH: Jay, it's his rhetoric.

LEMON: Jay and Newt end it. Speaking of hyperbole though, I want you to listen to what Tom Coburn had to say and tell me if you think this is hyperbolic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM COBURN (R), OKLAHOMA: The country's going to go nuts because they're gonna see it as a move outside of the authority of the president, and it's going to be a very dangerous situation. You're gonna see -- hopefully not, but you could see instances of anarchy.

SUSAN PAGE, USA TODAY: What do you mean?

COBURN: You could see violence. You know, this is a big step.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That was an interview with "USA Today". Do you think there's gonna be anarchy on the streets of the president acts on immigration?

GINGRICH: I think if you break the rule of law and you violate the constitutional system and you say to the American people, your opinion doesn't matter, the congress you elect doesn't matter. I'm the king, I can do what I want to, you are breaking down a lot of barriers and I think it's very -- this is the most dangerous thing I've seen an American president do probably since Buchanan failed to defend the constitution.

LEMON: Quickly Jay, quickly jay, I don't have much time.

CARNEY: In all honesty the -- what was stoked people's anger, is, is exaggerating what the president is setting out to do here. It is still fully within the capacity of the congress, to pass a law, the comprehensively reforms the immigration systems, as the majority of the American people want to be done and that was be good for our economy and that would end the need for any executive action...

LEMON: As...

CARNEY: As a temporary measure.

LEMON: As concisely as possible, Newt, are Republicans ready to shut down the government over the presidents immigration action?

GINGRICH: Not in a very short run. But I think they are ready to take very...

CARNEY: Why not, why not, if this is the worst thing since Buchanan, why not?

GINGRICH: Because, because you guy in the media would promptly shift from focusing on Obama to focusing on Republicans, and right now, the focus ought to be, on whether not to be...

(CROSSTALK)

CARNEY: Newt, if the states were that high, they're all gonna for it.

GINGRICH: Can you only allow be to do that? What? LEMON: Yeah. Now all of a sudden...

GINGRICH: I think, I think, I think no. I think he will see.

BARNEY: I guess in the end it is about politics.

GINGRICH: No, in the end it's about how do you affectedly deal with a flawless president who's acting on constitutional. I think you'll find McConnell and Boehner up to the test.

LEMON: OK. You guys are in the media. Newt, you had a show here on CNN, you're at the media now.

GINGRICH: I'm not in the media.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: OK. Thank you. Thanks, Newt Gingrich. Thank you Jay Carney, I appreciate it.

CARNEY: Thank you.

LEMON: All right, make sure you stay with CNN for live coverage of the president's address to the nation tomorrow at 8 Eastern right here on CNN.

And we have word tonight that a decision by the Ferguson grand jury hearing evidence in the Michael Brown case may be imminent, new information just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: As we wait for the decision by the grand jury in Ferguson, what does the autopsy of Michael Brown tell us?

CNN's Susan Candiotti went to the teaching crime lab of John Jay College and spoke with the Forensic Scientist Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky using information from the autopsy performed by the St. Louis Medical Examiner. The St. Louis Medical Examiner and a second autopsy requested by the Brown family and performed by Dr. Michael Baden. Kobilinsky shows us where the shots fired by Officer Darren Wilson hit Brown, and what we can learn from it.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Dr. Kobilinsky, can you please explain to us by showing us with this mannequin, how many wounds there were?

DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: It looks like there are at least seven shots, perhaps eight. A grazing wound to the right palm near the right thumb. A wound to the forearm, which has both entrance and exit features. There is a grazing wound to the right bicep, a fourth wound to the upper right arm, two shots to the chest. One to the right forehead, the so-called kill shot which entered at the very top of the crown of the skull.

CANDIOTTI: This is the first shot because, there was a struggle described in the car between Michael Brown and Officer Wilson?

KOBILINSKY: It is consistent with the struggle. What we can say is that hand was very close to the gun when it went off.

CANDIOTTI: And there appears to be material which is likely gun residue?

KOBILINSKY: That's correct.

CANDIOTTI: Can you tell from what you have seen so far, how far away Officer Wilson was from Michael Brown?

KOBILINSKY: No, not from autopsy results. What you look for is a gunshot residue pattern. Beyond 18 inches, a gunshot leaves no residue pattern.

CANDIOTTI: So you can't tell?

KOBILINSKY: You can't -- even if you had the clothing you would not see anything.

CANDIOTTI: So many witness accounts differ. Were his hands up in surrender? Were they coming down?

KOBILINSKY: In surrender, and I would expect the entrance wound to be on, what we call the ventral surface, the inner aspect of the arm. That's not what we see here. We see the exit wound on that surface. That's demonstrated right here. The entrance wound is on the back surface of the arm. So, the entrance wound is actually here, which is not what you would expect. People don't surrender like that. That would be the entrance wound. So, --

CANDIOTTI: Could there be another explanation?

KOBILINSKY: Well, the explanation is when that shot hit Mr. Brown, the arms were down. When it comes to the arm, it could be up it could be flailing, it could be rotating. It can take on an infinite number of positions. So, we have to be careful making statements about trajectories. And I think that brings us to that upper arm. I certainly don't feel comfortable stating that, that is an indicator of hands up or hands down. Of the three autopsies, I think they would certainly all agree on the position of the trauma, the wounds to the body. I think how they got there is a matter of opinion. In other words, was Michael Brown running toward the car? Police Officer Wilson, was he flawing? Was he surrendering? Was he not surrendering? All of these are part of the reconstruction.

LEMON: Thank you Susan, and thank you Dr. Kobilinsky. You know, Sunny Hostin is back with me. Now, so Sunny let's talk about the grand jury decisions that gonna come in just a few days. Sources telling us, the panels gonna meet on Friday, and that could be its final session. Decision on whether to indict Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown could come the same day. So Sunny, I wanted to get that out of the way before I, before I got back to you. Dr. Kobilinsky, you saw what he said if -- and you heard of Dr. Michael Baden said... SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah.

LEMON: And you've heard what other doctors have said and other forensic pathologist have said. If they can't come to a consensus, how can a grand jury, a group of lay people do that?

HOSTIN: Well, that what's so bizarre about this process, and why I have said from the beginning, this is very strange. If a prosecutor wants an indictment, the prosecutor doesn't throw every single piece of evidence in front of the grand jury regardless of the evidence that's gonna be able to be inadmissible at trial, and just say have at it. That is just simply how it's not done, I just never seen anything like this. And so, if you have it from the grand jury, all of this different evidence -- how do you expect them to come to a joint conclusion? Remember, we need 9 out of the 12 in order get an indictment, so that's the first thing. The second thing though, Don, that's strange to me, is we're hearing all of this about how they're meeting on Friday and how they could...

LEMON: I still just want to ask of it...

HOSTIN: Come up with a decision on that day.

LEMON: Sunny, but -- they --

HOSTIN: How is that possible?

LEMON: That they want to hear more evidence on Friday. And they said a decision could come as early as Friday. Not that it is going to come on Friday, but as early as Friday.

HOSTIN: But it could.

LEMON: Why might they be just listening to more evidence because we had heard that, you now, we heard it from the last witness, remember, Baden testified another...

HOSTIN: Right

LEMON: Witness and that would be it. Now, this is...

HOSTIN: And now this -- well, we hardly snow (ph) know that this grand jury is a very active grand jury, right? They requested Dr. Baden's testimony. And that is very interesting, because it usually is the prosecutor's show. Now this time, the grand jury saying OK, Mr. Prosecutor, I've heard everything you had to say. I really want to hear a little bit more. And grand juries that are very active sometimes do that. And so, that is interesting, and perhaps they want to hear more information. But Don, if they want to hear more information, and they get more information on Friday, if it is true that they have heard upwards of hundreds of hours of evidence, how is it possible that they could then get more evidence on Friday and come back on Friday.

LEMON: But they're not sequestered, right?

HOSTION: That suddenly makes sense.

LEMON: They're not sequestered.

HOSTIN: As far as I know, they're not sequestered.

LEMON: And so they are probably watching media coverage, they're getting...

HOSTIN: They shouldn't be though. Any prosecutor that's presenting a high profile case in front of the grand jury should be advising the grand jurors not to watch television that's covering this. I -- I hope, I hope not, I hope not but again, this is so bizarre, we've never seen anything like this. I don't care who sits across from you, Don, and tells you that in police shootings this is how a grand jury is conducted, that is a lie.

LEMON: Yeah.

HOSTIN: That is not true. I've never seen anything like this before.

LEMON: OK. So, here is, what I just quickly because I am up against the clock here. They are from the community?

HOSTIN: Yes.

LEMON: Will that influence them and oh, maybe I don't want any unrest here, or even if the evidence may not be, they may or may not, whatever it is, is that going to influence them in any way?

HOSTIN: Well, we hope not, we hope not, I mean, certainly, they have been instructed to -- you know, follow their common sense, listen to the evidence and come up with a fair decision. Hopefully, they're, they're not watching you and me and...

(LAUGHTER)

HOSTIN: And the coverage.

LEMON: That's right. Thank you for staying up late.

HOSTIN: No problem, no problem.

LEMON: Thank you, I appreciate our conversations, you know that. We go back and forth and...

HOSTIN: We do, we do, we do but we love each other. It's all in love.

LEMON: Thank you very much. All right, coming up, remarkable story of David Boone from homeless to Harvard. His thoughts on the value of a college education, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: David Boone was 14. He refused to join the gang, so the gang members destroyed his family home, his mother couldn't afford a new house and on occasion David had to sleep on park benches. That might have led many to a life of crime, time in jail, maybe drugs, but it led David to Harvard. And understandably, he was -- he has strong opinions about the value of a college education. Here he is in the CNN film, Ivory Tower which premieres tomorrow night at nine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID BOONE, HARVARD STUDENT STUDYING COMPUTER SCIENCE: Before I came here, I didn't have a bed for over a year. And so, I came into my dorm like, I jumped on my bed. That was something that meant a lot to me. It is a real blessing just being here alone has already changed my family dynamic.

MONEEKE DAVIS, DAVID'S MOTHER: I always told them, in order for us to get ahead as a family, each generation has to do better than the next.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Joining me now is Harvard student David Boone. So proud of you, thank you for coming on, David, how are you doing?

BOONE: I'm good, thanks for having me, Don.

LEMON: Great, great, great. So that clip was from the CNN film, Ivory Tower. You're a junior at Harvard now, you're studying computer science. However, you're not a typical Harvard student. You had a rough upbringing in Cleveland, your family was actually homeless as before you got to Harvard. How did you do it? How did you go from homeless to Harvard?

BOONE: To be honest, it was a situation where it was living day to day. I didn't feel like I was in a very tough situation because, where I'm from, this is not entirely uncommon. A lot of students end up in a tough position as far as not having a home, being put out of their home, whatever the case maybe, and they have to make decisions. I was fortunate enough to have the support of my family and people at school that told me it was worth working hard for, to try and get out of Cleveland, an idea that was foreign to a lot of my classmates, but was very common and understood for me.

LEMON: You know the film is very interesting. I can't wait to see that, to see the film, the entire thing of you there. What has been the biggest challenge for you as it comes through? Because, when you're going to Harvard, many times you're going to school with people who are very financially stable, wealthy, what has been the biggest, you know, hurdle for you?

BOONE: I got to say the biggest hurdle has been going back home and having to see the things actually haven't changed. I mean it's very idealistic to think about coming to Harvard and solving all the problems that I had in the past. And that is not true, I still have to deal with the fact that my older sister didn't go to college and has children and has financial issues, along with my mother, who I am one of five. And so, we have a lot of issues, and still trying to be as helpful as I can. And also focus on my studies can be extremely difficult. I have to say that is probably the hardest thing, is just trying to be helpful at home and trying to be a great student at the same time.

LEMON: Well, let me tell you, you can do it, and you are doing it and we are very proud of you. You're an amazing example of what can be possible if you dedicate yourself to a goal. Do you believe that others who, who don't have the money or the opportunity to go to college can still achieve success? Because many people are saying you don't necessarily need college these days.

BOONE: I'm a firm believer and that college isn't the route for everyone. But failing to plan is just planning to fail. And so, if you're not going to college you need to have a plan, you need to have something that you can deliver on. The value of college for me is I get to find what I love and chase that and do that for the rest of my life.

LEMON: Yeah.

BOONE: And I'll be happy doing it, and that's the space where I get to find that thing. For other people, it may be some other opportunity...

LEMON: Right.

BOONE: To find what they love. And they will continue to do that.

LEMON: David, go out and conquer the world. We're very proud of you. Thank you very much.

BOONE: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: All right. CNN's film, Ivory Tower, premieres tomorrow night, 9 Eastern right here on CNN. And we come right back, with new video, Bill Cosby talking about rape allegations against him.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Breaking news on Bill Cosby in his own words talking about rape allegations against him. His comments come from previously unreleased video from an interview conducted earlier this month by the Associated Press. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to ask about your name coming up in the news recently regarding this comedian --

BILL COSBY, AMERICAN COMEDIAN AND ACTOR WITH RAPE ALLEGATIONS: No, no, we don't answer that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I just wanted to ask if you wanted to respond at all about whether any of that was true.

COSBY: There's no response.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Can I ask you -- with the persona that people know about Bill Cosby, should they believe anything differently about what? COSBY: There is no comment about that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

COSBY: And, and I tell you why.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

COSBY: I think you were told, I don't want to compromise your integrity. But, we don't -- I don't talk about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Now, two more women have accused Cosby since the interview was recorded which caused the associated press to decide to release the video now, and then what's they say in their description. Again, as we've been reporting this evening, NBC had a development deal over the show for Bill Cosby. They have sense that they're not going to do it. Also Netflix has dropped them from a project for Thanksgiving Day that they had with him. And also TV land, the reruns of the Cosby show have now been removed from the air and taking off the Web site. I'm Don Lemon that is for us tonight, thanks for watching.

"AC360" starts right now.