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CNN TONIGHT

Trooper Shooting Suspect Captured; Emotions Run High in Ferguson

Aired October 30, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. We are live tonight in Ferguson, Missouri.

Tensions rising here as we get closer to the grand jury's decision on whether to indict Officer Darren Wilson in Michael Brown's death. That decision is expected sometime in the next two weeks. St. Louis County Police have already spent more than $120,000 stocking up on riot gear. In these cases, in this street, if they erupt.

And meanwhile Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson says he won't step down despite months of criticism over the police department's handling of the shooting and the protest.

But what if Officer Darren Wilson is not charged? Will events here spin out of control? And what really happened the day Michael Brown was shot?

We're here to ask those questions and try to get some answers for you.

But I want to begin with breaking news on another big law and order story tonight. The capture of the Pennsylvania trooper shooting suspect Eric Frein.

So joining me now to talk about this and his capture is Evan Perez, CNN's justice reporter.

Evan, what are your sources telling you tonight about this capture?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, Eric Frein was actually walking back to his hiding spot inside this abandoned airport in northeastern Pennsylvania when some -- when a team from the U.S. Marshalls saw him. He apparently didn't see them. And they were able to surprise him and they brought him down. They arrested him.

Inside his hiding space, we're told that they've recovered a couple of weapons. A rifle and a pistol. But the much feared shootout that the law enforcement officers were expecting and we're fearing, frankly, did not occur. He surrendered without incident. And he is now under arrest. The state police in Pennsylvania is expected to bring him before a judge there and bring some charges against him.

And as you know, Don, this has been the source of a -- of a manhunt for now 48 days. Hundreds of law enforcement officers from the FBI, from ATF, from state police have been hunting for this guy. He shot one state trooper and injured another one 48 days ago. And now he's finally in custody.

LEMON: And we're understanding that there is going to be a press conference soon to give us a little bit more information on the capture of Eric Frein, Evan. And we'll carry that for you live. But what can you tell me about this abandoned place where he was allegedly found, the Birchwood Resorts where officers had been searching?

PEREZ: Right. This is the Birchwood Poconos Airport, which -- basically an airstrip, it's an abandoned airstrip. It's an area that had been searched before by the law enforcement teams there that have been looking for him. Hundreds of officers have been looking for him. And apparently they had some intelligence that there had been some sightings nearby. And so they were going back doing some searches again of areas that they had looked in before. And that's when they finally saw him this afternoon.

Now, Don, you know, that -- you know, they've been -- all these sightings, they've had found indications of where he'd been hiding out. They've even found that he'd turned on his cell phone to try to make a phone call. All of these things he managed to evade capture despite hundreds of people looking for him for all these 48 days.

LEMON: All right. Our justice reporter in Washington, Evan Perez, stand by. Thank you for that.

I want to bring in now Tom Fuentes. He is a former assistant director of the FBI.

Good evening, Tom. What condition was he in when he was captures? And this picture, if you look at it, you can see he has a beard. It doesn't look like there was a possibly -- does look like there was an injury to his nose. What was his condition?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Hi, Don. My understanding is that he was standing up. And he was doing fine. He had been walking fine. And when the Marshals came to arrest him they put him on the ground to be safe and make sure he would not get his hand on the guns that he had with them.

And I'd like to add to what Evan said that, you know, in these kind of searches you have to keep going back and returning and returning to places you previously cleared because he would move around and know that and go back to a place like that. And as winter is approaching, and the nights are colder, you know the authorities knew that he would probably be seeking some kind of a shelter and not just trying to stay in a hole.

And the Marshals' team that arrested him, the special ops team, they're very skilled at tracking fugitives and particularly in a wooded area. So they did a great job in this case of taking him alive.

LEMON: Yes. And listen, many people would be surprised because he is known as a survivalist and he had military training, and all of those things that we have heard so much about Eric Frein over the past six or seven weeks. It was surprising to many that he did not put up a fight or it appears he did not put up a fight. Did that surprise you?

FUENTES: Yes, it does in a way but in another way, he's kind of like a warrior wannabe. When you see the pictures of him in that video clip, in the documentary, he's in a military uniform. Wearing his "Top Gun" sunglasses at the pocket and trying to act cool. And at the end of the day, he is really a coward.

You know, that's fine to do these reenactments with toy guns or with guns firing blanks, I should say. But at the end of the day he assassinates that police officer and wounds the second officer from a distance with a scoped rifle where they had no chance. A cowardly attack.

And my guess is that while he was running around the woods there were probably times that he could see the officers searching him and probably was afraid to get into a firearms confrontation even though he would have the advantage of being able to shoot them from afar, from cover and concealment. So at the end of the day he is a coward.

LEMON: I would imagine that this press conference will be held maybe at the Blooming Grove barracks, and that's where he is now and that's where he shot two officers last month.

How important is that for state police?

FUENTES: I think it's extremely important to bring him back and show that -- you know, that they have achieved justice in this case and apprehending him. He hasn't had the opportunity or taken the opportunity to hurt anybody or kill anybody else after the first night's shooting. And I think after all of the tension in that area, with those state police and, at times, there's been as many as 1,000 officers and federal agents looking for him from many agencies. To have that resolution that he's in custody and he will not be out again.

LEMON: Tom Fuentes, Evan Perez, thank you very much.

Tom, stand by as well, as we wait for this press conference.

But meanwhile we want to get to the latest law and order story here and that's in Ferguson. Nearly three months after Michael Brown was shot to death by Officer Darren Wilson sending protesters into the streets of this city, our Sara Sidner has more on the latest right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: If ever there was a sign that racial tensions are simmering to a boil in Missouri, this is it. An uncensored, expletive filled, racially charged front page of the Missouri State University newspaper where the N word and F word are spelled out.

The editor-in-chief explained to us why he did not censor the words hurled at students protesting for Ferguson. TREVOR MITCHELL, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE STANDARD: I wanted people to

say, look at this. I wanted people to look at those word and then look below where it says these things were said to protesters on Missouri State's campus by students and other attendees of the tailgate. I wanted them to read that article. I wanted them to see what black students and students of other races have to go through on Missouri state's campus every single day.

SIDNER: Back in Ferguson the memorial for unarmed black teenager Michael Brown remains in the middle of the street where he was shot and killed by white police officer, Darren Wilson. Resident David Whitt says the shooting simply opened the floodgates of anger that had been building in the city for years between the majority black community and almost all white police department.

After the shooting, Whitt and dozens of other residents decided to arm themselves with cameras. They say police have responded.

(On camera): What are they doing differently?

DAVID WHITT, FERGUSON RESIDENT: They were respecting the residents to a degree. They --

SIDNER: And that's because you think because they also know they're on camera?

WHITT: They know they're on camera now. So they're not interacting with the community. You know, but they are coming in. And they are practicing restraint.

SIDNER (voice-over): At night the biggest change is outside the police department where protesters are now part of the scenery.

The Ferguson Police now wear cameras, too, saying, they and their families have become targets of threats and violence. At a city council meeting, one protester said she'd been harassed by police and warned Mayor James Knowles that his private information had been leaked on the Internet by a group supporting the protesters.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Knowles, did you see where Anonymous released your credit card information today on the Internet?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're welcome.

SIDNER: On West Florissant, the epicenter of the mass protest in August, the scars of unrest remain. Three T Salon owner, Triondus Sleet, says businesses on this street are hurting along with the community.

TRIONDUS SLEET, OWNER, THREE T SALON: We were doing OK but barely making it. Now that this has occurred, it is so slow it is like a dead zone. Pretty much.

SIDNER (on camera): For business. SLEET: For business. For the community as well.

SIDNER (voice-over): Sleet understands the frustrations but has boarded up her salon worried about unrest. And yet some residents are trying to rebuild. A group calling itself One Ferguson is stepping up to find solutions from within.

ADRIENNE HAWKINS, ONE FERGUSON: The thing that I have seen is our community grow and to come together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first step is admitting that there is something that needs to change, right. And really holding ourselves accountable as residents.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: So the community is preparing. And some say tension is building here on the streets of Ferguson, although it doesn't appear to be. If you walk down the streets tonight in Ferguson, where we were back in August, it seems to be a pretty normal city. Almost like any city in America. Didn't see any protesters, nothing out of the ordinary.

But as we move on here, I'm going to say that the city's police chief, Thomas Jackson, is insisting tonight that he won't step down.

I want you to listen to what he told our very own Jason Carroll today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THOMAS JACKSON, FERGUSON POLICE CHIEF: This is my job. This happened on my watch and I intend to see it through. And I think I am very capable of doing that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, joining me now is Chief Jon Belmar of the St. Louis County Police and also Captain Ron Johnson of the Missouri State Highway Patrol.

Thank you very much. So we had heard so much about protesters still being on the streets and there was still unrest. And we saw some of it, but it doesn't appear to be, you know, as advertised. Am I right or am I wrong?

CHIEF JON BELMAR, ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE: I think you're right. I think that we have noticed the last couple of weeks that the police have been able to build a little bit of a rapport with the protesters. We talk about expectations. They talk about their goals. And in some ways, it's turned into a tailgate. We actually talked, we shake hands. We go back across the street. And typically it's a peaceful night.

LEMON: Do you agree with that? Do you think it's better?

CAPT. RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI STATE HIGHWAY PATROL: I agree. There has been a number of meetings with several groups to make our community belter. And that's been playing a big role in this also.

LEMON: So I have to ask you this now that we have that out of the way. We've been hearing so much about the Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson stepping down, and that the St. Louis County Police Department, that you would be taking over operations at least temporarily for this department.

What do you know about that?

BELMAR: Well, you know, I heard that the other night. That was reported. I wasn't aware at all that Chief Jackson would be stepping down. So I talked to my staff about it. They relayed that to some of the media. And, you know, eventually I got enough calls. I called Tom Jackson myself and I said hey, I'm hearing these things. Is this going to happen? He said no, in fact, I'm going to be staying here.

Now, listen, I guarantee you that part of the responsibility of the St. Louis County Police Department is to ensure that the citizens here in St. Louis County have police protection. These are certainly things that I contemplated. My staff has contemplated with me. Regardless of whether it's to provide command and control for the city of Ferguson. Should something like that happen or should we have to take over for police services.

So we thought about that. But at the moment it doesn't appear that -- you know, it would appear that Chief Jackson is staying.

LEMON: But aren't you -- aren't you in charge of parts of the Ferguson Police Department? Already that's already been put into place, correct?

BELMAR: Well, you know, not the police department. But the command and control here in the city of the detail we have for security.

LEMON: OK.

BELMAR: So small police department. I think these guys are burdened. They're taxed. And we came in and did that for them.

LEMON: So you're not hearing it from here. And Chief Jackson is saying that -- you know, he's not stepping down. And I made the point the other night. Let it be known that the report that, at least we were receiving, our justice reporter, Evan Perez, it was coming from Washington and being reported from Washington.

Eric Holder has said wholesale change is needed. And if he says that and the chief still does not step down, can you work with this? Can people here have confidence in this department? Confidence in the department? Captain?

JOHNSON: Well, I figured if he's the chief of the department and this city holds him as the chief, then yes, we will work with the department as we always have.

LEMON: Yes. Is it -- we talked about consent decree a little bit. There have been a number of police departments that have been taken over at least overseen federally by the government -- by the Justice Department.

BELMAR: True.

LEMON: And if that happens they can come in and change the leader, the brass of the police department.

BELMAR: Yes, they can certainly mandate change. And we have seen that around the country. Typically our experience and our history shows that's larger police departments. And we certainly have not seen smaller police departments go through consent decree. I'm sure there's been many that have. But not with the attention that has been shown on Ferguson over the last three months. So I think that's unique.

However, I'll be honest with you. It's very difficult for the captain or I to speak about that.

LEMON: Yes.

BELMAR: That's DOJ that's involved with that with the city of Ferguson.

LEMON: If there -- let's say there is not an indictment. Are you prepared if there is unrest? We hope there is not unrest, but are you prepared at this moment for what could possibly happen?

JOHNSON: Well, as I always said, you know, we plan for each day. But I think it's unfair to put speculation on the character of this community and how they will react. And so I don't do that. We've got a great community. A great character. And I think these days, especially these recent months have shown that once we got to calm people are able to see what that character is. So I expect that -- we'll see the best of our community.

LEMON: And as I said at the beginning of the broadcast, or at least before I introduced the story, it doesn't appear as, you know, what people are writing. Do you think that it's members of the community that is keeping this going or -- who do you think is the protesters are still here? Who are the protesters here?

JOHNSON: Well, I think the people of this community are meeting, and they're talking, but they're still expressing their First Amendment rights. I think that the intention that was there from the beginning, especially if you are, if you've gone back to your home, you think it's still here because you're not here. And so I think the people that are here would have a different take on the atmosphere here.

LEMON: I have to ask you this when -- you talked about the character and that, you know, we should be fair to project on to the character of the people, we certainly hope it's not violent. But still they're spending $120,000 on equipment, riot gear, and so on and so forth. Is that necessary you think at this point?

BELMAR: Frankly it was probably necessary years ago. We never envisioned that we would have something like this. And really we are just trying a little bit of catch-up probably to be honest with you. And we have, listen, the responsibility to protect our police officers but I agree with the captain. There's nothing but good people here. And we certainly expect the best.

LEMON: Chief, Captain, thank you very much. Appreciate you joining us this evening.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

BELMAR: Thank you.

LEMON: And we have got a lot more to come live from the streets of Ferguson, Missouri. When we come right back, eyewitnesses to the shooting of Michael Brown. What they say they really saw. What really happened.

Plus the big question everyone here is asking, what if the grand jury does not indict Officer Darren Wilson? What will it take to keep Ferguson from erupting all over again?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: If you have been watching you know we've been reporting abut a lot of leaks in the investigation. There are multiple stories of what happened. And today the St. Louis prosecuting attorney insisted that no evidence has been released by anyone on the grand jury.

So joining me now is Dorian Johnson, he was with Michael Brown when he was shot. And also he is also joining -- joining him and us here is James Williams, he's Dorian's attorney.

So thank you very much both of you for being here. What has it been like here in Ferguson for you over the past couple of months?

DORIAN JOHNSON, WITNESS TO MICHAEL BROWN SHOOTING: Ferguson, I really, after the event, I kind of packed up my family. We are away from Ferguson right now. But I do sometimes put the feet in to see what is going on in Ferguson.

LEMON: Because all eyes were on you, because you were the closest, you were the person closest to him, meaning in proximity, to what happened?

D. JOHNSON: Right.

LEMON: On that day.

D. JOHNSON: Right. I was with him the whole day, from the morning to the fatal shooting.

LEMON: OK. So we have been talking about the leaks and apparently what happened with the grand jury has been saying, what the autopsy shows. So let's go through that. So your version is, again, and then I'll tell you, and then we'll talk about what the other reports are.

Your version is you are walking in the middle of the street on that day and what? D. JOHNSON: I believe I was consistent with everyone I was telling my

story to. And when I had to talk to, I was consistent of the evidence and the stuff that's coming out now I believe would be consistent with my story, the truth, what I have been saying the whole time. And it's never changed.

LEMON: There was a fight in the car between -- there was an altercation, we should say, in the car between Mike Brown and the officer?

D. JOHNSON: Correct.

LEMON: There was. OK. At any point did you see Michael Brown reach for the officer's gun?

D. JOHNSON: Absolutely not.

LEMON: And how close were you to the officer, Michael Brown, the police car?

D. JOHNSON: Me and Michael Brown was standing shoulder to shoulder right up on the police car.

LEMON: Go ahead.

JAMES WILLIAMS, DORIAN JOHNSON'S ATTORNEY: I think it's important, Dorian, describe if you can for Mr. Lemon the circumstances, in other words, the size of the window, the size of Michael Brown, whether it's even feasible in your opinion that Michael Brown could have done the things that some folks are now saying he did.

D. JOHNSON: Right. And I got to say, my story has been consistent. And what I said is, you know, Mike Brown is a real big fellow. The window size, for him to be able to fit his body inside there is almost like he would have been stuck inside the window.

LEMON: OK. So the reports that have come out according to Darren Wilson's testimony, and this is, again, this is someone else's reporting, this is not CNN's reporting, that there was an altercation. He tried to take the gun. And that he was trying to grab the officer's gun. The shot went off inside the car. That's why he has the close range gunshot wound to the hand.

And others have said that he was trying to pull him into the car. He said he was trying to push Michael Brown out of the car.

D. JOHNSON: Darren Wilson's story came out. I really didn't tune in to what he said or anything else said by anybody else. My story has been the same way since I first told it. And I'm sticking with my story.

LEMON: There are also other witnesses who reportedly, in the same reports, who said that you, as soon as that happened you ran away. That you were nowhere near the car when the altercation happened even when Michael Brown was shot that you were not near him. Did you run away when it happened? D. JOHNSON: Absolutely not. I was there from like I said the first

morning when I saw him all the way to his last breath, I stood there and watched until his animation stopped.

WILLIAMS: And I think Dorian has been consistent throughout.

LEMON: Yes.

WILLIAMS: That Officer Wilson did shoot Mr. Brown at the car.

LEMON: And he's -- also there has been -- there has been some reporting again, as well, that his hands were not up. That they were maybe by his side. To your recollection, his hands were up?

D. JOHNSON: His hand were definitely up. I was with him the whole time. Even when we started to run awe, I still had perfect eyesight on what was going on. And I still could see Mike Brown running and Officer Darren Wilson following. And I definitely saw his hand go up.

LEMON: Dorian, thank you very much. Appreciate you joining us.

D. JOHNSON: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you, James.

WILLIAMS: I'll see, Don.

LEMON: Thank you for joining us here on CNN.

I want to bring in Piaget Crenshaw and also Tiffany Mitchell. They also witnessed the shooting and they're going to come in now and they're going to join me.

Thank you, guys. I haven't seen you in quite a while. You doing OK?

Piaget, tell me what happened? When did you start to shoot the video?

PIAGET CRENSHAW, EYEWITNESS TO MICHAEL BROWN SHOOTING: After everything happened. And I saw everything.

LEMON: After everything happen and you what?

CRENSHAW: And I saw what happened.

LEMON: You saw what happened.

CRENSHAW: Yes.

LEMON: And you heard my interview with Dorian just now about the accounts that have come out, you know, in the newspaper saying that his hand were not up. There was an altercation in the car. You were telling me in the beginning that it looked like that Michael Brown was trying to push his way out of the car. Right?

CRENSHAW: Yes, and I stand by everything that I said previously. LEMON: It didn't look like he was trying to get into the car and

start a fight. You said he was trying to -- it looked like to you that he was trying to --

CRENSHAW: From my point of view.

LEMON: From your point of view. And you saw it. How soon did you see? Was it -- when you heard the shot?

CRENSHAW: When I heard the tires screeching in the middle of the street.

LEMON: You heard the tires screeching in the middle of the street. Did you --

CRENSHAW: I started looking.

LEMON: Did you see the -- did you hear the first shot? Were you filming when you heard the first shot?

CRENSHAW: I didn't film until after it was all said and done.

LEMON: Did --

CRENSHAW: After the boy's body was on the street.

LEMON: Did you see the first -- did you see the altercation as it was happening and then you heard the first shot? Were you looking when the first shot happened in the car?

CRENSHAW: Yes.

LEMON: Yes. OK. And what about you, Tiffany?

TIFFANY MITCHELL, EYEWITNESS TO MICHAEL BROWN SHOOTING: Yes. I saw the first shot. And I gave my same statement several times. It's been the same way, consistent and I stand by exactly what I said time and time.

LEMON: What do you make of the accounts in the paper about witnesses who are saying that there was a fight in the car and it appeared that Michael Brown was fighting with the officer? He was the one who was the aggressor in the car. And also Darren Wilson's alleged testimony to that as well.

MITCHELL: Well, I have never seen any statements from the witnesses. And I feel like, Darren Wilson made his statement after we made ours. So it went around what we were saying to make his look better than ours. I don't get it. I don't know. But I mean, I told my story whenever it, it happened. I saw exactly what I saw. And I told everyone what I saw.

LEMON: Tiffany, hand up or down?

MITCHELL: His hands was up. Definitely.

LEMON: Hands were up. Surrendering?

MITCHELL: Yes.

LEMON: Yes. What was the look on the officer's face after it happened?

MITCHELL: He had a blank stare. When I saw him, I can see -- because I was coming from behind him so I came and saw his face. It was just a blank face. I couldn't say like what his emotions was about it. He showed no remorse as his -- as to what happened to the kid. But --

LEMON: Yes. Tiffany and Piaget, could this be a justified shooting to you?

MITCHELL: No.

LEMON: Why not?

MITCHELL: I can't see it. I can't see it being justified because if he's surrendering to you, why do you have to kill him?

LEMON: Piaget?

CRENSHAW: If he is running away, why are you shooting at him? If he's surrendering, why are you shooting at him?

LEMON: Yes. What -- so why did you take the video after it happened?

CRENSHAW: Because when the boy got shot, and I saw his blood leaking, I just thought immediately get it on camera. Somebody needs to see this.

LEMON: Yes, you two -- you're still in the area, but do you still live in Ferguson?

MITCHELL: I've never -- I don't live in Ferguson.

LEMON: But you were picking --

MITCHELL: I was picking --

LEMON: You were picking up. Do you still live here? Yes. And what has it been like here?

CRENSHAW: Well, honestly. My peers are divided. Half of the people they're saying in awe, they want revenge, they want justice, they just wanted everything completely how they want it. And a lot of people don't trust the police station, especially not Ferguson anymore. They have a distrust for the police. They don't care what they have to say. Because they believe it is all lies any way. So they are not giving them a chance. They just want their protest going to be just -- could be peaceful and protect it.

LEMON: Are you concerned about unrest?

CRENSHAW: Yes. LEMON: When we get more information when it comes out?

CRENSHAW: Yes. Once there is an indictment or not, no telling what's going to happen after that.

MITCHELL: I just hope everyone protests peacefully and get their word out lawfully and don't -- like burn down stuff and all the looting and rioting. That's not going to make anything better at all. If you're going to riot, just do it peacefully and lawfully.

LEMON: I think everyone is with you.

Thank you very much. I appreciate both of you. Thanks for coming out on this very chilly evening.

Attorney General Eric Holder has a message for anybody who is leaking information about this case. Shut up. But have these leaks damaged the investigation?

Up next we're going to get expert answers to the key questions in this case. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We are live here at Ferguson, Missouri. A community that has been on edge since the shooting death of Michael Brown on August 9th, tension building tonight as people here wait for a grand jury to decide whether, or not to indict Officer Darren Wilson -- a decision that could come within the next few week. I want to bring in now, Kevin Jackson. He is the executive director of the Blacksphere, and also Liz Brown, columnist, criminal defense attorney and columnist for the St. Louis American Newspaper, and Mark O'Mara, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney.

So let me ask you this, Kevin, there have been so many different accounts of what happened, at least what we have heard. And the, the St. Louis county prosecutor saying, nothing has been leaked. He doesn't know where this information is coming from. So with everything that is out there, how is the grand jury going to sort this out if these -- what they say has been reported is indeed true?

KEVIN JACKSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BLACKSPHERE: I think the grand jury, you are under oath. So it's a little different than witnessed accounts and people just standing around saying, hey this happen and whatever happened. You have got people that have various agendas. And you don't know what they are. I'm not saying they're necessarily malicious. I'm saying you don't. That is not the place where you are going to necessarily get the truth. Under penalty of perjury, potential to go to jail that I would hope the justice system vets itself out.

LEMON: What do you mean people have different agendas?

JACKSON: From the same. You know, there are people have this idea that police are corrupt. There are corrupt police, but all police are not corrupt. You have that fact. You have Dorian Johnson who had a little bit of skin in the game. You know, again, I am not trying to impugn his testimony necessarily. I am saying you can understand if he is trying to slant a little bit one way or the other. You know, it's not a condemnation of anybody, but it is an idea that everybody looking at that has their own personal experiences and personal prejudices or personal biases and the grand jury hopefully is under, you know, a different set of circumstances.

LEMON: Including the officer as well.

JACKSON: Potentially, yes, we haven't really gotten that side of the story.

LEMON: All right. I want to bring in -- I want to talk to Mark O'Mara now, because, Mark, you know, Attorney General Eric Holder and others, they have been angered by the so-called grand jury leaks. Eric Holder actually said yesterday that the leaker needed to shut up, so the prosecutor saying, to his knowledge, no, you know, nothing has been leaked. What does this do to this investigation if anything?

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, at the very least, it allows for mistrust from the people who have to believe that the system is working at the Ferguson population and community and the rest of us. Because if in fact, we are then degrading the grand jury by letting out significant information, everybody gets to say it is not being done properly, it is not being done right, and we can tend to ignore it. The greatest thing is, I am hoping and I believe the grand jury is going to do their job regardless of the result, I just wanted to let them do it in an environment that maintains the trust we have to have for it.

LEMON: Many people here ear saying it should be done, you know, where they can see it, and not through the secrecy of a grand jury. So, but I want to know from Liz because, Liz, many, many -- go ahead, Mark. Quickly.

O'MARA: Well, I was going to say the grand jury is intentionally secretive for a purpose, and that is to make sure all information gets out to the people who have to hear it in a good, clear, and concise way. What I like about this grand jury is the prosecutor has already said if there is not an indictment, or if there is an indictment at the right time, but as soon as possible, all of the transcripts are going to come out. So while it is secretive to begin with, the process is going to be transparent when it's done.

LEMON: Liz, many black people here in Ferguson and around the country have been saying that they're demanding justice, they're demanding the truth. Isn't it possible though that the officer in this case is telling the truth?

LIZ BROWN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it is possible. Anything is possible. Mike Brown could have had a note saying I plan on shooting the police officer. The question is not whether it is possible, it is whether or not it's credible. And how do we get to credibility with what the police officer said. We get the credibility when we have a prosecuting attorney that is fair, impartial. I would look to speak to what the defense attorney just said a few minutes ago. He made the comment that Bob McCullough said all this information is going to come out if we have -- if we don't have an indictment. Well, that is not necessarily true. Because the fact of the matter is that it has never been -- the audio tapes of a grand jury hearing have to have a judge, decide whether or not that information is coming out, so we don't know that for a fact that is exactly what is going to happen. And then secondly because this grand jury was secret, we don't know who testified and who didn't. So he could selectively release, whichever testimony he wanted to release.

LEMON: Mark, I hear you murmuring there that that's not true.

O'MARA: And I agree. There could be some conspiracy, but he has announced through national public that he is going to release transcripts. He can't release some of the transcripts and not others because the grand jury would not stand for that. I agree a judge has to agree. But this is the case where the grand jury should do their work as every grand jury does, in secrecy and then it should be discussed afterwards, and to suggest conspiracy as long the way, all that really does is conjure up greater purpose from mistrust in a system that we don't know the results of yet. We should be doing less speculation but more trust.

LEMON: OK. Standby, I will let you.

BROWN: Thank you. Thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Emotions here are running high. They are raw. So as to what might happen if there is no indictment, we will get into that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: One question that is making a lot of people nervous here is what is going to happen if Officer Darren Wilson is not indicted in Michael Brown's death. So back with me now, Kevin Jackson, Liz Brown, and Mark O'Mara. Liz, you wanted to respond to what Mark said?

BROWN: Yes, I think it is irresponsible to frame any criticism or any lack of trust in the prosecutor as conspiracy. Because as an attorney that has practiced in this jurisdiction, there are -- this particular prosecuting attorney has done much to -- not have people to have trust in what he does and what he says. And with respect to the release of the -- the transcripts, he cannot state that he is going to because it is not up to him. A judge has to determine whether or not those records will be released.

LEMON: Once the process is done.

BROWN: Yes.

LEMON: That's what you are saying. Mark, do you want to comment or can we move on?

O'MARA: I don't know the prosecutor. I defer to some one who practiced in front of him. If he shouldn't have been there, he shouldn't be there. But let's see what he does. If he does a good job, we'll find out about it because we'll see the transcripts. I am very concerned with all the leaks and the way this has been handled more in the media than the courtroom where it is supposed to be, but we'll get there.

LEMON: OK. So the question we have been asking this entire time, what happens if there is not an indictment? Will there be an indictment?

BROWN: Well, I think -- I said from the very beginning.

LEMON: Is there going to be an indictment?

BROWN: Absolutely not.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I don't believe in any manner, shape or form.

LEMON: Why not?

BROWN: Because of how this particular grand jury has been prosecuted. When you have a prosecutor that is stepping outside of the normal process for example, allowing the grand jury -- I am not going to suggest, I'm not going to argue to the grand jury what charges should be brought. I'm going to leave it up to you, that's stepping outside of the normal process.

LEMON: What happens, someone from this area -- what happens if there is no indictment?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: As you say when there is no indictment.

BROWN: When there is no indictment, I think the community is going to respond. I think that the actions that have been engaged in by this prosecuting attorney, by the police department have been provocative.

LEMON: Why are you shaking your head?

JACKSON: I'm shaking my head because we're at a point here where it has already been decided in the community. We have not heard this officer's side of the story. It's all behind closed doors. We had a narrative set in a community about what happened. There are a lot of people that want to buy the narrative. Look, if calmer people need to say let's just understand it, it's not an indictment of Michael Brown, but we certainly shouldn't be indicting a police officer. There are a lot of people who think he did his job. So let's get to the evidence. Now to her point, if there is all these other conspiracy issues with Bob McCullough, hopefully it vets itself out, but I am amazed. I mean I look at this community, made up of mainly blacks. This is a Norman Rockwell community in many respects. I think people would be shocked. They now have this idea that Ferguson is you know Dodge City or south side of Chicago. This is an amazing community. And we are tide of in this one case around this kid, tragedy though it may be...

LEMON: I agree with you this community has been painted with a bad brush because of what happened. But in many ways, you know, it is accurate because we, obviously we saw it unfold live on national television. But Norman Rockwell, this Norman Rockwell community has over $120,000 in riot gear that it is stockpiling. And since August, extra helmet shields, batons, shin guards, gas masks, pepper balls, all those things, is that necessary?

BROWN: Well, that's something that the police would have to answer. And you can also maybe look at it from the perspective that this is what the police -- this is how the police see this particular community. I would make the argument this is a Norman Rockwell nightmare community when you look at the way African-Americans have been treated in the particular community with respect to stops, arrests all of that. So I would disagree.

JACKSON: Well, I complete disagree with that, there are communities surrounding this one which are much more monolithic in terms of the race makeup, 95 percent black that are doing worse than Ferguson. Look, if we are going to be real about this, we have to get the real narrative out there, and not this narrative. I've been through city many times, that's not what this is about. This is not the south side of Chicago.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Record reflects otherwise.

JACKSON: But as far as what's going to happen, you know, hopefully, clearer heads prevail. And people will start looking at the community saying, that's a black community that should be put up on a hill because if you come through here you get to know Ferguson it is actually a very, very nice city to live in. I've think that this idea that you know this is going to be this -- this whole, you know, I don't know what is going to go up in flames, I think that is doing a disservice to this community.

LEMON: Mark, I want to ask you, I think Kevin brings up a good point. When you are here, people may be a bit myopic. Because they live here, right? They may be a little close to it, but if you talk to people across the country and you pay attention across the country, many people think there is a rush to judgment, that a narrative has been created, as Kevin said, and we have only heard mostly from one side. But in all fairness, mostly one side is talking. Darren Wilson is not coming out publicly, neither are his friends, neither are his colleagues in the police department.

O'MARA: Well, part of the problem is that this case, like the Zimmerman case before, it has ripped open an old wound in the black community of how the young men are being treated in the criminal justice a legitimate concern. We know young black males are treated in the criminal justice system in a disproportionate way and that also includes the way more young blacks are shot by everybody including cops. So that wound has been ripped open. I like the idea of having a discourse, of having a conversation, of how we are going to fix those problems. In the '50s and '60s with restrooms and water fountains, it was easier to see. Now, it is more subtle the biases, but we have to address them. My fear is that in this case if the facts just so happen not to fit the presumption, the wound ripped open, that would now going to be taken as some negative towards the civil rights movement or a continuation. That's my fear. Because it may just turn out that this was not an unjustified killing. We don't know. The grand jury should do their job. I still trust them.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, guys. We will continue this conversation. Liz, Kevin, Mark O'Mara.

When we come back, breaking news on the law and order story, the capture of fugitive Eric Matthew Frein after nearly seven weeks on the run. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: I want to update you on our breaking news right now. We are awaiting a news conference on the capture of Eric Matthew Frein. He is a suspect in the September 12th ambush shooting that left corporal Bryon Dickson dead, and trooper Alex T. Douglass Alex wounded outside the Pennsylvania state police state barracks. We are waiting on the news conference. Frein was taken into custody after nearly seven week on the run, that's according to a federal law enforcement source. He was armed with a pistol and rifle. Another law enforcement official told CNN, knives were recovered from his hiding place. Authorities are searching the area right now for weapons. Frein was caught at an airport in the Pocono, Pennsylvania. Again, a news conference expected shortly. We'll bring tight you live. Even as police here in Ferguson protest, what they consider excessive force or people protest, excessive force by police, the fact remains that every day, officers themselves they face danger, even in routine situations like pulling over a car, a situation that left two veteran officers dead in California. CNN's Stephanie Ellam has more now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANIE ELLAM: Six hours of terror.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On a one man crime spree. He has no idea the damage he did.

ELLAM: The damage, two veteran officers dead, one injured, and a civilian shot in the jaw during a failed carjacking. Behind the mayhem, according to authorities, a husband and wife, Marcelo Marquez and Janelle Monroy.

The rampage begins when two officers approached a suspicious car in Sacramento. Some one in the vehicle without warning fires on the policemen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At least one of the round struck Deputy Oliver in the forehead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What could they have done differently that could have saved their lives?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, really, they can't do anything differently now. Because if you just look at time compression, we have couple second, a millisecond between some one suddenly pulling a gun out from the window and shooting behind.

ELLAM: Ron Martinelli is a forensic criminologist and retired police officer. While police often face scrutiny for use of force, in Ferguson, Missouri, and across the country, he says a case like this highlights daily dangers officers face. According to National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, 1,500 officers in the U.S. were killed in the line of duty over the past ten years.

RON MARTINELLI, FORENSIC CRIMINOLOGIST: You night have tinted windows. We have a limited amount of time to come up here. Check any occupants in the car, where are they, what are they doing, watching their hands, look in the rear view mirror, try to see the driver of the car. And as we are getting closer, we're exposing ourselves more to danger.

ELLAM: After allegedly killing Oliver, the couple flees. Detective Michael Davis Jr. encounters the suspects and he, too, approaches the vehicle from behind and is gunned down. The 38-year-old Monroy is arrested but Marquez escapes again, this time on foot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty five percent of all police officers that are injured and killed in the line of duty are injured and killed during traffic stops or walk-ups like this.

ELLAM: Officer Davis was shot to death 26 years to the day that his father died in the line of duty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In engagements of officers between two and ten feet with suspects. Even a normally traffic officer can only hit that suspect 12 percent to 14 percent of the time. OK, the suspect, 68 percent of the time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspect doesn't have to worry about laws, doesn't have to worry about department policy.

ELLAM: In the end, 34-year-old Marquez was cornered in an Auburn, California home and arrested, suffering a gunshot wound to the hand. Federal officials say his real name is Luis Enrique Monroy Bracamonte, and he was twice deported to Mexico, once for narcotics possession. Authorities charged the two with murder. Yet it is still unclear why they allegedly opened fired, and why two officers lost their lives.

Stephanie Ellam, CNN Los Angeles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: All right. Stephanie CNN has tried to reach out to the accused for comment and has not yet received a response. And we want to tell you again that we are awaiting a live news conference on the capture of Pennsylvania ambush suspect Eric Frein. We're going to bring that to you as it happens. It should happen very shortly. We'll be right back.

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