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CNN NEWSROOM

Possible Child with Ebola; Quarantined Nurse Freed; Ebola Test; Ottawa Gunman Made Video

Aired October 27, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. And here we go on this Monday afternoon.

At this very moment, the family of a 5-year-old boy in New York City is waiting to see if he will become the fifth case of Ebola diagnosed in the United States. Keep in mind, a couple of the other cases, remember they contracted Ebola in West Africa before flying to the states to be treated, if you're curious about number there.

Now, this disease has set off a raging debate whether public safety trumps personal liberty. The Pentagon now is considering mandatory quarantine for all U.S. military personnel coming back from West Africa. You have these four states thus far, New York, New Jersey, Illinois and Maine, they have now ordered that health care workers treating Ebola patients in West Africa must be quarantined upon arrival, even if -- this is the important part -- even if they're showing no symptoms.

Doctors Without Borders nurse Kaci Hickox appears to be the first to fall under that mandate. So she says, if you initially read her "Dallas Morning News" piece and now have heard the interviews on CNN, she says her human rights have been violated under quarantine. She was forced into it after arriving from a very long journey overseas at Newark airport this past Friday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KACI HICKOX, NURSE, DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS (voice-over): Everyone keeps asking, how are you feeling physically? And, of course, I feel fine physically. But I don't think most people understand what it's like to be alone in a tent and to know that there's nothing wrong with you and that decisions are being made that don't make sense and that show no compassion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: She's now headed to her home state of Maine where she will be under quarantine at her home for that 21 day incubation period. We'll get the latest on the nursing in just a moment.

But first, back to the possible Ebola case here in New York. CNN's Poppy Harlow is outside Bellevue Hospital where this little boy is being treated. And, Poppy, can you just first give us the back story on, you know,

this 5-year-old, his family being overseas in West Africa, and then when will we know if, in fact, he has the virus?

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure. So let's begin with that, Brooke. We should know at some point today, according to New York City's mayor, they have done the test for Ebola. As you know, that takes up to 12 hours to get the results, positive or negative. So we should know today, but we just don't know what time because we don't know exactly when it was administered.

This young 5-year-old boy spent about a month in Guinea with his family. We know that he returned to the United States via JFK Airport here in New York on Saturday evening around 9:00 p.m. Then apparently he started to get a very high temperature on Sunday. We know he was rushed here to Bellevue Hospital, the same hospital where Dr. Craig Spencer is being treated for Ebola. He was rushed here by EMS on Sunday evening, along with his mom. His mother, important to note, not showing any symptoms, but, of course, this is a 5-year-old boy, so you don't want to rush him alone.

It's also important to note that he does have a 102 degree fever, but officials are saying that he has symptoms that also could be in line with other illnesses. So we have no idea if this is Ebola or not. They're just doing the test given that he spent time in Guinea and just returned to the United States.

Just a few hours ago, New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio addressed why the city is taking such precautions with this little boy. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO, NEW YORK CITY: The child was having some difficulties, but it's not clear they were the kind of symptoms that would be related to Ebola. So, again, this is the abundance of caution dynamic. Very recently a returned family, the child was showing some signs of an illness, not clear what the illness was. We did the cautious thing and brought the child in under the full protocol.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: All right, Brooke, so we also know that the child is in isolation here at Bellevue. The hospital designated to deal with cases just like this here in New York City. And we know that law enforcement officials are tracking the moments he and his mother made since returning if Guinea just to be very, very careful and see who they may have come in contact with.

BALDWIN: Hopefully we get to share the moment when we say this little boy is Ebola free.

HARLOW: Right.

BALDWIN: We'll be watching, waiting for those test results. Poppy Harlow, thank you so much, for me in New York. And now more on that nurse from Maine who complained that being forced

into quarantine violated her basic human rights. She is Kaci Hickox. She is headed home, but her ordeal is far from over because she is now required to self-quarantine. Hickox was held in isolation after she returned from treating patients in West Africa. Newark Airport health screeners determining she had a fever, but that it seems that was a faulty reading. She said she was flushed at the time. Two Ebola blood tests coming back negative. And at her hospital, at this hospital her temperature never actually rose above normal, but her anger definitely did. Quarantined inside of this isolation tent you see here. She says after many, many hours flying from West Africa back to New Jersey en route to home to Maine, she said she had no shower, no flushable toilet, nothing to do. So she was frustrated. She slammed New Jersey Governor Chris Christie over her treatment. This is what she told CNN's Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KACI HICKOX, NURSE QUARANTINED IN NEW JERSEY (voice-over): I spent a month in Sierra Leone and when I arrived at the airport in Newark, I, of course, presented my paperwork to the immigration official and told him that I had been in Sierra Leone. So I verbally declared it myself as well as writing it in the documentation. And he was very (INAUDIBLE) and said, OK, well, they'll have a couple of questions. (INAUDIBLE) there were many people that asked me questions. No one seems to be leading or coordinating the effort. A lot of the questions were repetitive. And as an epidemiologist, I was surprised that, you know, I saw people writing in the margins of their paperwork, which just shows that, obviously, they weren't prepared to really capture all the information they thought they need.

They tested my blood and, as you know, it's negative. CDC (ph) also confirmed that it was negative. And I know that there have been reports of me having a fever in the airport, but I truly believe that it's an instrument error. They were using the forehead scanner and I was obviously distressed and a bit upset and so my cheeks were flushed and I think there has been some evidence that that machine is not very accurate in these kind of situations. So when I arrived in the isolation unit, they took my temperature orally and it was completely normal.

You know, the first thing I would say to Governor Christie is that I wish that he would be more careful about his statements related to my medical condition. I am not, as he said quote-unquote "obviously ill." I am completely healthy and with no symptoms. And if he knew anything about Ebola, he would know that asymptomatic people are not infectious.

I understand that people feel like they have a risk and I think we can have a conversation about what further measures might look like. But I think this is an extreme that is really unacceptable and I feel like my basic human rights have been violated. And I hope that he will also consider me.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: So that was part of Kaci's conversation with us here at CNN. She mentioned Governor Christie. Governor Christie maintains he was merely looking after public safety.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: I know she didn't want to be there. No one ever wants to be in the hospital I suspect. And so I understand that. But the fact is, I have a much greater, bigger responsibility to the people, the public. And so I think when she has time to reflect, she'll understand that as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Well, today, the New Jersey Health Department announced Hickox is free to go but it will not be back to normal for her just yet. CNN's Alexandra Field is following her story from Newark and here with me in New York, Jarrod Bernstein, former deputy assistant secretary for intergovernmental affairs with the Department of Homeland Security.

So, welcome to both of you.

But, Alexandra, let me just begin with you and the reporting. We have now heard it was released that she will be heading home to Maine in a private carrier, so not being exposed to public elements. What happens once she gets home?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Brooke, that's because while she is in New Jersey she has to be under quarantine. And now health officials in Maine have also had to weigh in, you know, revealing what their policy will be in a case like this. And they tell us that because she is quote-unquote considered a high-risk individual, someone who was in the hot zone with direct contact with Ebola patients, that she'll have to remain in quarantine when she returns to Maine, but that quarantine will be in her home. She'll have to finish out that 21 day period, the incubation period.

CDC officials in Maine will be working with her. They say they're going to try to be making her comfortable in her home. They'll be providing food, medicine if she needs it. But this is a woman, Brooke, who we know has repeatedly told us that she is not sick. She doesn't have any symptoms. She has tested negative for Ebola twice.

Still, health officials in Maine want to take precautions. This is a victory, though, for Kaci Hickox in the sense that she has been kept in an isolation unit here at University Hospital at Newark since Friday. She has been fighting to get out of here, even bringing in a lawyer, who had this to say to us a little bit earlier today. Listen to what he told Ashleigh Banfield.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVEN HYMAN, ATTORNEY FOR KACI HICKOX: I look at what are the basic civil rights and human rights of individuals, as well as their medical conditions as it relates to that. She - these individuals who contracted it, contracted and exhibit symptoms. If a symptom is exhibited, they then go to a hospital and get treated, as we saw in Dallas. And it's unfortunate that they had any contact. But Kaci has had no symptoms. She is not a threat or danger to anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FIELD: And Kaci Hickox's attorney, Steve Hyman, says that he certainly believes there are legal grounds to challenge the policy here in New Jersey. He says he isn't sure, though, if Kaci Hickox will or won't want to proceed with challenging that because the fact is that she's on her way home to Maine, which is where she will finish out that 21 day quarantine period. And we know that she's looking forward to just getting her life back to normal after this ordeal, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Alexandra, thank you so much.

And let's just broaden this out. Jarrod Bernstein sitting next to me. And just in your professional, you know, health care industry opinion, should people who are in contact with Ebola patients in West Africa or anywhere, when they come back to the states and they are asymptomatic, and we all know about Ebola now to know that that mean you're not contagious, but that could change, should they automatically be self- quarantined?

JARROD BERNSTEIN, FMR. DHS DEPUTY ASST. SECRETARY: Brooke, I think it's important that we let the science guide us right now. And the science says that unless you're exhibiting symptoms, fever, vomiting, that you're not contagious to other people. So unless you're contagious, really a quarantine at this point doesn't seem warranted.

I think what is important is that people are very vigilante about the self-monitoring, taking their temperature twice a day. We saw it in New York. That's actually what really saved us from a whole lot of problems when this doctor, who was taking his temperature twice a day and reported -

BALDWIN: Craig Spencer, Doctors Without Borders, who came over, took the tree (ph), he walked the high line, went bowling.

BERNSTEIN: Yes. Yes. And the minute that he saw he had an elevated temperature, he called Doctors Without Borders and was reported to the health department and he ended up where he needed to be, which is getting care at Bellevue Hospital.

BALDWIN: So that's part of the frustration, though, right? I mean you saw the covers of all the papers here just a couple of days ago knowing this doctor had been in contact with these patients overseas. And I think it's just - honestly, it's lack of information, lack of education on Ebola, which we're all trying to gain so quickly right now.

BERNSTEIN: Sure.

BALDWIN: But there is -- there were a lot of furious people and there are even furious people towards this young nurse who's finally going home to Maine saying, listen, for public safety sake, quarantine yourself.

BERNSTEIN: I think that if you put a -- right now, if you look at it, if you put a mandatory quarantine into effect, what you would really be doing is giving people a disincentive to tell you - be full and forthright about where they've been, what they've been doing and when they became symptomatic.

BALDWIN: That's an interesting perspective.

BERNSTEIN: And so what you really need to do is make sure that we react to the situation, we deal with the situation, but not overreact.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BERNSTEIN: And that's really, you know, cooler heads need to prevail here. And I think what we've seen in the last 24 to 48 hours is that a conversation that really should have happened earlier between the federal officials, the state officials and the city officials.

BALDWIN: That's what else I wanted to get to. Right, so you have these officials, i.e. we just played the sound from Chris Christie, who, you know, in one instance was saying, absolutely, mandatory quarantine outside of Newark Airport for this young woman who came over from West Africa. Now all of a sudden it's like a total reversal and she's free to go. What kind of message do you think, you know, very high ranking government officials are sending when they change their minds?

BERNSTEIN: Well, listen, I think that everybody has a right to change their mind. In an outbreak like this, consistent information is always best information, but we have to be guided by the science, we have to see what the situation is on the ground.

BALDWIN: It's unprecedented.

BERNSTEIN: It is unprecedented, but we have to see what the situation is on the ground and we have to continue to evolve based upon, you know, how people are getting sick, how people are getting -- the disease is traveling and let that dictate where our operational policies go. So if people are only getting sick from other sick people, well, then that's what we really ought to be looking for, not spending our time chasing and quarantining and enforcing a quarantine that probably, you know, would be hard to get to 100 percent effective. We probably ought to be spending our resources looking for sick people, making sure they get the care quickly and that we investigate from there on out.

BALDWIN: Jarrod Bernstein, thank you so much.

BERNSTEIN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: I appreciate it, clearing it for all of us.

Coming up, how exactly does testing for Ebola work? How does it take - how long does it take to determine if someone has the virus? Is it 100 percent accurate? We'll continue this education here. That is next. Also ahead, about 10 U.S. soldiers who spent time in Liberia are now being monitored for potential symptoms of Ebola in Italy. And now the Joint Chiefs of Staff is debating whether to recommend all troops returning from West Africa be placed in this mandatory quarantine, as we've been debating the last couple of minutes here.

Also, police say last week's gunman in Ottawa on Parliament Hill actually made this video of himself prior to his attack on Canadian parliament. What officials are learning from this video.

Stay with me, you're watching CNN.

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BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Right here in the United States a blood test is used to determine if a patient has Ebola, but this nurse quarantined in New Jersey, who we now know is headed home to Maine, has also tested for Ebola two different times and both of those times the test came back negative. So can all returning health care workers for Ebola be tested for Ebola? If they test negative, would that mean that they are forever in the clear? Let's walk through some answers here and clear this up for everyone. Dr. Robert Murphy, director of the center for global health at North Western University.

Doctor, welcome.

DR. ROBERT MURPHY, CTR. FOR GLOBAL HEALTH, NORTHWESTERN UNIV.: Hey, thank you.

BALDWIN: I think it's also important just to point out for our viewers, I know it's your lab that's conducting Ebola tests for the nation of Mali in West Africa. So with your expertise, when we talk about this blood test for Ebola, what -- how does it work?

MURPHY: Well, it's a PCR based test which most hospitals have some access to or do it themselves. You have to have a --

BALDWIN: Forgive me, what's PCR?

MURPHY: Polymerase chain reaction. It's a very sophisticated, molecular test that is very, very sensitive. You can detect very low quantities of the virus in the blood. This test, however, is -- it may not pick up the virus during the asymptomatic phase that a patient could be in.

BALDWIN: OK.

MURPHY: So, for instance, that nurse who just came to New Jersey, she could have had one negative test and a couple days later it could be positive if she was infected. Ultimately it becomes positive. By the time a person is symptomatic, it's always positive.

BALDWIN: So is there a window, Dr. Murphy, if I were to take a test, having come back, let's say, from Liberia today, within two days would it be able to detect? How precise is it?

MURPHY: It depends. It really depends on what the exposure was to the virus. If it was a massive exposure, you know, a lot -- exposure to a lot of viral particles, it's likely to turn positive sooner. But we really can't answer your question. We really have to wait until the patient becomes symptomatic. It's a very good question and I'm sure it's being looked at now.

BALDWIN: So that's the issue. So it's really only when someone becomes symptomatic is when you administer the test. And I ask that because with these health care workers, and we hope people continue to go and help, right? I mean it was Dr. Fauci who said the best way to fight Ebola in the states is by fighting it in West Africa.

MURPHY: Right.

BALDWIN: So, you know -

MURPHY: He's absolutely correct.

BALDWIN: Why not -- why not test all returning health care workers?

MURPHY: Well, you'd be getting a lot of negative tests -

BALDWIN: Got it.

MURPHY: And the negative test doesn't mean that that person's not infected. So that's the problem with just blanket testing like that.

BALDWIN: Understood. Understood.

What should people know? I mean we keep asking all these questions about Ebola, trying to quell some of the fears and some of the fears are certainly justified and some not. But if you, you know, given your realm of expertise, Dr. Murphy, what one bit of information would you like to impart to the American public?

MURPHY: OK. We know that each infected Ebola patient only infects one to two other people. And that's true in Africa and true here in the United States as well. So it's not highly contagious. Highly contagious things include SARS, measles, influenza. Those are much more contagious than Ebola. Ebola doesn't infect that many people. Look at the family in Dallas, Texas, living with a sick man and going back to their contaminated apartment and none of them became infected.

BALDWIN: That's exactly right.

MURPHY: The same thing is going to happen here.

BALDWIN: That's exactly right. Dr. Robert Murphy, Center for Global Health at Northwestern, thank you so much for joining me. I really, really appreciate it today.

Coming up here, could the treatment of health care workers returning to the states after helping those with Ebola in Africa hurt patients all over the world? How experts say the mandatory quarantine could do more harm than good actually.

And ahead, police say the Ottawa gunman made a video of himself prior to his attack on Canadian parliament. What officials are learning from this video and how it fits into the so-called profile of a lone wolf, next.

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BALDWIN: The man who opened fire at Canada's National War Memorial and in parliament made a video of himself shortly before carrying out the terrorist attack. Police are analyzing this recording but are not releasing it at this time. However, they say the gunman was quote- unquote driven by ideological and political motives. Let's go straight our justice correspondent, Evan Perez, with a little bit more.

Evan, on this video, what do you know?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, you know, just the fact that this video exists is quite interesting to authorities. You know, he had a -- the shooter had a lot of problems in the past. He had a bunch of arrests for drugs and for mental issues. But the fact that he left this video, which they say was quite lucid, the authorities say that in it he praises Allah, he portrays himself as an observant Muslim and he criticizes Canada's foreign policy.

These are things that they say shows that there was some level of planning in this attack and that he was acting political and for ideological reasons. And it really also adds to the picture that they're trying to put together, which is, you know, they're trying to figure out who else he might have been working with, who perhaps - who else he was talking to, if there's anybody else, part of this conspiracy. That's what they want to know.

BALDWIN: I am sure agencies both in Canada and the United States are going through that video with a fine tooth comb. Evan Perez, thank you, in Washington.

Coming up, could this mandatory quarantine of health care workers returning to the states discourage others from traveling to Africa to help in this crisis. How experts say the mandatory quarantine could actually do more harm than good.

And, 10 U.S. soldiers are being monitored in Italy after returning from Ebola-stricken Liberia. Meanwhile, the Joint Chiefs of Staff are debating over whether to recommend that every single troop who's been in the Ebola zone be placed on mandatory quarantine. Should that happen? Stay with me.

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