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Will Quarantines Keep Doctors from West Africa?; Interview with U.S. Congressman Adam Schiff of California; Lone Wolf Attacks the Future of Terrorism?; Will ISIS New Recruiting Work in America; Where is the Ebola Czar?; Images from Ferguson Evoke Civil Rights Era

Aired October 26, 2014 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: And thanks for staying with us in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Ana Cabrera.

This hour, we are fast forwarding to the week ahead. So, we'll take a look at all the stories you'll likely be talking about and hearing about this coming week.

Let's begin with our five questions for the week ahead. Question number one: will mandatory quarantines here at home keep doctors from traveling to West Africa?

We know both the CDC and the NIH are insisting the best way to combat this virus is to get the health workers to West Africa. I'll speak with a doctor who has been to the Ebola hot zone in just a moment.

Question number two: the White House pushing back on the three states with those mandatory quarantines. Will more states try to impose Ebola quarantines on returning health care workers or will the White House try to implement new federal Ebola guidelines?

I'll talk it over with a congressman in just a few moments.

And question number three: are blood transfusions the cure for Ebola? We now know another Ebola patient just received blood from Ebola survivor Nancy Writebol. In fact, every U.S. Ebola patient who has received donor blood has lived. Is this the key to finding a cure or maybe a vaccine?

Question number four: two terror-inspired attacks against soldiers in Canada and another attack against police in New York are now raising the question, are lone wolf attacks of this type the future of terrorism against the West? We'll examine this threat.

Question number five: ISIS cranking up its online propaganda machine releasing new videos aimed at American jihadists, urging them to join their fight in Syria and Iraq. But will they work?

Let's turn to these new rules from health care workers returning from West Africa, pitting science against public policy. As the White House pushes back, New York, New Jersey, and Illinois implemented mandatory Ebola quarantine policies for health care workers who arrive at their airports. Two other states, Connecticut and Florida, will require health monitoring.

NIH director, Dr. Anthony Fauci, says he is concerned health care workers who, of course, are very essential to curbing the spread of the virus in West Africa will now be discouraged from making the trip.

Let me bring in Pulitzer Prize winning author, Dr. Sheri Fink.

Dr. Fink, thank you for joining us. I know you are there in Liberia seeing health care workers up close. What do you make of these new quarantines?

DR. SHERI FINK, AUTHOR, "FIVE DAYS AT MEMORIAL": Well, it's the hot topic of conversation. I just was visiting with some doctors and nurses who are treating patients, Ebola patients, very bravely in Bong County, Liberia, for international medical corps, and it was really the topic of conversation. They're very concerned about what will happen when I get home, and I've also spoken to members of the CDC, the U.S. military, as well as the leaders of these nongovernmental organizations and they're also just concerned about the potential effect on volunteerism.

CABRERA: And are you hearing from people there who are concerned about the potential quarantines when they return? Are they saying I never would have come if I had known I could be quarantined upon my return?

FINK: They are not saying that. They're just very concerned about what will happen when they get home, and some of them are expressing the opinion that these quarantines aren't, you know, won't be useful or that they aren't based on public health, and the people here feel that they're working very hard to keep safe and taking responsible actions. They know a lot about Ebola. A lot of them have gone through intensive training processes to be able to work here. And they feel that they're responsible and that they would not put anyone at risk. They would take all the responsible actions, but they are concerned about what will happen when they get home.

CABRERA: It's unique for us to be able to talk to somebody like yourself on the ground in Liberia, sort of the ground zero for this fight against Ebola. Give us a better sense of what the atmosphere is like there and the work that's being done? We know the military is supposedly working on constructing hospitals and sites for more treatment of Ebola patients.

FINK: Yes, well, here the work goes on. People are not panicking. There's just real dedication both amongst Liberian health workers as well as these expatriate, the foreign volunteers. There's, you know, heartbreaking stories but there's also a real sense now that people understand how this disease is passed, how the virus passes through body fluids, and how to protect themselves.

There's, you know, more and more aware awareness. Many problem, a big need to scale up the efforts, but the people who are doing the work, they seem to be filled with a sense of purpose. It's tough work, but they're not panicking. They're not afraid once they're there. They're well trained. They've got good equipment, the foreigners who are volunteering here.

So, it's been amazing to be among them, to interview them, to see them go about their work.

CABRERA: Do you get the sense that there are enough resources on the ground now?

FINK: There is a sense, no, that that scale-up needs to happen, and what they've seen at these treatment centers still are people coming very late for treatment. They're very, very sick. And often that's because they live at such a distance.

These -- the roads here are just not like in America. They're very -- they need a lot of work. So you have people who are just at a far distance from any current treatment center. If there was something closer to them, maybe they would get that help beforehand and they would get supportive care.

You know, there is no cure, but they could get intravenous fluids, they would be isolated and not putting their loved ones at risk because once you develop symptoms, and, you know, that's the time when there's a risk so you need to get people that help. That's the idea with this big scale-up, is we need more of these treatment centers to isolate the disease, to prevent it from spreading and give people at least a shot at surviving.

CABRERA: Well, Dr. Sheri Fink, thank you for the work you're doing there and keeping us informed on what's happening in Liberia and other West African countries struggling with the virus. We appreciate your time.

FINK: Thanks.

CABRERA: Let's move to question number two. Will more states follow suit now that three states have imposed their own quarantine rules?

California Congressman Adam Schiff is back with me now.

Congressman, we did just hear from Dr. Fink there on the ground in Liberia talking about how important it is to isolate people as they're trying to combat the spread of the disease in those West African countries. So, you know, to play devil's advocate, I know you have said that you don't believe quarantining people here coming back to the U.S. is the right move. What do you think is going to stop the spread of Ebola in the United States, that being said?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, I think the steps that the NIH and CDC have been recommending are the right steps, and that is that people should be monitoring themselves. That in some cases may very well be appropriate to have health care practitioners go out and help them in monitoring. But to uniformly quarantine everyone that comes back from these areas will discourage people from going there to serve and do the brave work that Dr. Fink is doing and will only allow the contagion to spread and that I think poses a risk throughout Africa and ultimately a risk back here at home. So, I'm afraid it's going to be counterproductive. I'm also afraid

that with three large states now doing this, you're going to find other states eager to follow suit and make the problem even worse. So, I'm very concerned with this, what I consider to be a rash action that is not warranted by the science, not recommended by the health care professionals, but I think a reaction to the fear that's out there.

CABRERA: Last hour, we both heard New York Mayor Bill de Blasio talking about the nurses at New York's hospital being disrespected by some in the public because of Ebola patient Dr. Craig Spencer's presence in their hospital.

Why do you think there is such a stigma about Ebola here in the U.S.?

SCHIFF: Well, people are very afraid of it. We don't know much about it. I mean, as the American public, the health care practitioners actually have quite a bit of experience with it.

But I think the reaction, the human reaction is natural to be afraid, but at the same time, we should have great respect for these people who are taking the courageous step to go there and help on the front lines and when they come back, we should show just a fraction of their courage by treating them with respect, but not recoiling from them or their children. That I think is a minimum that we ought to ask of ourselves because they are really putting themselves in harm's way and we ought to applaud that. We ought to venerate that and it really appalls me as I know it does the mayor of New York City to see anyone who's taking up that fight given this kind of treatment back home.

CABRERA: Last question for you. There was a lot of criticism about the administration's and the leadership's response initially when Ebola came to the U.S. How do you assess the leadership now?

SCHIFF: Well, I mean, there have been mist mistakes. Certainly I think giving approval for the nurse to fly when she had a temperature was a mistake, and you have to expect, unfortunately, when we're deal with this in states for the first time, there are going to be some mistakes, but by in large I think getting good information out there which the CDC and NIH are trying to do, establishing better protocols, establishing this fast response team, all of these things I think are very positive steps.

New York was fortunate as the mayor said, they had three months to get prepared and they did. Dallas didn't have that time to get prepared and it showed.

So, you know, we certainly haven't had a perfect reaction response but we're learning sometimes the hard way. But I have a lot of confidence in the expertise at NIH and CDC, in the dedication of the people there, and I have just nothing but respect for organizations like doctors without borders that are doing this incredibly important work.

CABRERA: Representative Adam Schiff from California, thank you.

SCHIFF: Thank you. CABRERA: And coming up, we have already seen some people like Dr.

Kent Brantley and Nancy Writebol survive Ebola with the help of blood transfusions. Our medical experts take a look at the science behind that procedure, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Every Ebola patient in the U.S. who has received donor blood from an Ebola survivor has survived.

Our third question: can blood transfusions lead to a cure for Ebola? Dr. Craig Spencer, the doctor being treated in New York, has received blood now we know from an aid worker, Nancy Writebol. She was the second Ebola patient to be treated here in the U.S.

And joining me to discuss this is senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, who's live outside the Bellevue Hospital where Dr. Spencer is being treated. And Dr. Alexander Garza, the former chief medical officer for the Department of Homeland Security.

Dr. Garza, I want to start with you.

A panel of experts from the World Health Organization recently said that blood plasma and whole blood transfusions should have priority for now. Do you agree with this?

DR. ALEXANDER GARZA, FORMER CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, DEPT. OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Well, I agree with anything that can improve the survival rate. And so, as you mentioned in your opening remarks there, it has been used in many of the patients that were here in the United States, and they have all survived. So, it's still a small "N" as we say in scientific research, it's still a small number, but it still looks promising.

And let's not forget the case fatality rate for Ebola is anywhere from 50 percent to 90 percent, and when you have numbers like that, you're much more willing to try more aggressive measures to try and save lives.

CABRERA: What is the science behind the blood transfusion possibly being something that's working?

GARZA: Sure. So the science behind it is when somebody's exposed to a virus, they build up antibodies against it. And if the patient survives, then they still have these circulating antibodies in their blood. And so, by capturing those antibodies and giving them to a patient who has been exposed to a virus, those antibodies will then attack the virus. And it gives them a bridge until their natural immunity can now start building up antibodies to clear the virus.

So, it's really used as sort of a substantiating measure to allow the patient to build up the antibodies in order to fight off the virus all on their own.

CABRERA: Elizabeth, are the countries in West Africa equipped to handle large-scale blood transfusions? ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, based on

my experience in Liberia, it doesn't seem like they are. I mean, they're just fighting to have enough beds for everyone. So, the people can stop dying in the streets.

I mean, coming back here just reinforced for me how blessed we are to have the incredible medical care that we do in this country. I don't think they're getting even basic care the way that they should. I don't think on a large scale they're getting blood transfusions, unfortunately.

CABRERA: And, Elizabeth, we've heard there could be survivor blood on the black market.

COHEN: Right. We have heard that. That, of course, is something that could be detrimental. You never know if that blood has become contaminated. You never know if it is the type it is supposed to be and giving somebody the wrong type of blood is obviously a big problem.

You know, Ana, it was interesting. I was just on the phone with Dr. Rick Sacra , who's an Ebola survivor, and he said the way it's been done so far, when someone gets sick, that he and the other survivors get a phone call. He said now, he thinks that they're trying to make it more sort of organized and systemic so that he's been asked to give his plasma and just have it sit somewhere waiting in case someone needs it.

So, it seems like it's becoming more systemic and so that it's easier to get it to patients so there's not this mad rush every time someone's diagnosed.

CABRERA: Dr. Garza, a lot of optimism with the blood transfusions. Could this be the future in finding a cure for Ebola?

COHEN: Well, I think you're talking about two different strategies. So, one is fighting off the actual disease, and that's what the blood transfusions are for. And so, that's somebody that's already ill with the virus getting the antibodies to get them over the hump so that they can start fighting off the virus, themselves.

But really, the goal is the vaccine. And that is to prevent people from getting ill in the first place. The vaccine would potentially then help the body create antibodies all on their own without having a transfusion, so that even if they were exposed to the virus, they would not develop the illness.

So, two different strategies, but really the key is coming up with an effective vaccine.

CABRERA: It's definitely worth mentioning that the world top organization says they are about to begin trials with five other vaccines potentially with the ability they hope to have hundreds of thousands of those inoculations, going to patients in West Africa by the middle of 2015. So, our fingers crossed in both the vaccine front as well as this blood transfusion being perhaps a good treatment for those struggling with the virus.

Elizabeth Cohen and Dr. Alexander Garza, thanks to both of you.

GARZA: Thank you.

CABRERA: With two lone wolf terror attacks in Ottawa and New York City this week, are we seeing the rise of a new type of terror threat? We ask an ex-jihadist and a terror expert when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: The past week had seen no fewer than three seemingly random attack against the military and/or police. A lone man armed with a vintage hunting rifle tried to storm the parliament building in Ottawa, Canada. Moments earlier, he had just killed a soldier standing guard at a nearby war memorial. Parliament sergeant-at-arms ended up killing the gunman described as a radicalized Muslim.

Now, days earlier a driver intentionally ran down two Canadian soldiers killing one of them. Police said it was an act of terrorism.

Let's bring in Michael Daley, special correspondent to "The Daily Beast." Also joining us, a former jihadist, Mubin Shaikh, co-author of "Undercover Jihadi: An In-Depth Look at Homegrown Terrorism".

Gentlemen, thank you both for joining us.

Groups like ISIS and al Qaeda, as we know so far, have not carried out large-scale attacks against the West.

Mubin, do you think it's because they aren't capable of doing that and so, instead they're, you know, calling for jihad?

MUBIN SHAIKH, FORMER JIHADIST: Yes, it's not either lack of trying, that's for sure. Obviously, because of comprehensive security measures, it's made it more difficult, but these groups, you know, they revolve around utility. What works? It takes much longer, takes a lot more money to do large-scale attacks. You send out a siren call of all of you, you know, do whatever you want against whoever you want, it makes it that much easier for people to respond.

CABRERA: And it's difficult to track individuals, is there, Michael, an effective strategy for trying to keep tabs on potential threats when we're talking about an individual, you know, unless you have to monitor every individual?

MICHAEL DAILY, THE DAILY BEAST: Right, it's tough. They're not just radicalized. They're self-radicalized. It isn't like they go to a madras and you can put them under surveillance and see who comes and goes. These guys are sitting in their living room going loony tunes. The only thing you can do is try to stay vigilant and hope that there's a finite number of these guys.

CABRERA: Mubin, put us inside the mind of somebody who is vulnerable to becoming radicalized. What is it? Is it somebody who is mentally unstable? Is it somebody who is seeking, you know, a sense of belonging? Since you have been in those shoes, what is it?

SHAIKH: Yes, there's -- when you look at it, radicalization is a process. OK? The end result of radicalization is you become an extremist. You come to accept views of violence. When you act on those views, you're a violence extremist, also known as terrorist.

Along that radicalization process are different points. It could be that a person starts up not even Muslim, grows up in an abusive background. He might develop or has mental illness. That opens the mind to more extreme views that allow them to justify their violence. So this deviant version of Islam allows people to that.

If you look at a person who was born Muslim, might grow up in a very religious environment, Muslim for all intents and purposes, doesn't become an extremist until they become very close-minded, they start to listen to only one particular scholar or closed group of scholars. They're watching videos of suffering, death and destruction day in and day out, they start to develop what's called a vicarious depravation, where you're looking at other people deprived. You then make their depravation your depravation and then suddenly feel you need to act.

A sense of adventure is also at play. A sense of reclaiming the lost glory of Islamic rule is also at play. There are a number of factors that play together at the same time. Not just religious ideology, not just mental illness. There's usually always a mixture of a number of factors.

CABRERA: Michael, how do you combat what Mubin just described?

DALY: I don't know what you do. I mean, you had a guy who was sitting in Queens and all of a sudden decides that he's a soldier for ISIS and he picks up a hatchet and he goes and he whacks two poor cops in the middle of the day. I mean, I don't know how you defend against that.

I mean, you just -- maybe with the truth about ISIS, maybe -- I mean, ISIS -- you notice that today they came back, "The Times" had a detailed study of how they treated the captives, and they came back with a video saying, well, we only waterboarded them when they tried to escape -- which is interesting, which makes me think that they're probably a little surprised at what an audience they have. They probably didn't think --

CABRERA: They didn't expect to get the attention and notoriety.

DALY: I mean, I don't think they'll get teenage girls in Colorado all of a sudden, you know, telling daddy they don't feel well and end up trying to go to ISIS. They're probably a little surprised. They probably don't know how many nuts we've got sitting around here with nothing to do, and they probably didn't realize how powerful it is -- I mean, I think most people, their big enemy is boredom, and all of a sudden, they're providing the purpose to people and they're probably shocked by it, too, and they try to modulate a little bit today, and that to me said that their audience is important to them.

CABRERA: And we're going to talk more about the recruiting strategy of ISIS. We'll continue our conversation with Mubin Shaikh, as well as Michael Daly, as soon as we come back. Of course, intelligence experts say 1,000 Westerners have left their homes to fight in Iraq and Syria, more than 100 of them American. But how do extremist groups convince people to give up everything to fight under the black flag? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Just this week we learned more about three teenage girls from Denver, Colorado, who made it halfway to Syria before they were stopped in Germany. Now their plan was to join extremists. It was unraveled by a series of tweets.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DANIEL KAGAN (D), COLORADO: She had been tweeting to her friends and discussing this plan to go to Syria and strike a blow for justice as they saw it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Well, this raising some serious questions about the reach of ISIS recruiting.

Let's discuss more with Michael Daly, special correspondent for the "Daily Beast," and Mubin Shaikh, a former jihadist himself who went undercover infiltrating radical groups for Canadian Intelligence. He's also an author of "Undercover Jihadi."

Mubin, I want to start with you. We just heard about these girls from Colorado, young, 15, 16, 17 years old. Are you surprised by how effective ISIS has been with its recruiting?

SHAIKH: I'm not surprised, and the reason for that is because the individuals that they're trying to recruit have been psychologically primed to accept the call that ISIS is making. The idea of participating in the reestablishment of the caliphate, this is something that, you know, Islamic teachings encourage, other Islamic groups, politically active groups as well, have been encouraging.

There are differences of opinion on what that caliphate should look like. You know, do you have like, an authoritarian fascistic system like ISIS is doing or should it be more of a parliamentary collaborative system. But nonetheless, for these people, it's like a fantasy world view. They think they've reestablished the caliphate and they're going to go there and they're going to live happily ever after.

CABRERA: Michael, I heard another expert on our air the other day saying that what's going to be most effective perhaps in countering ISIS propaganda machine is having ex-ISIS fighters speak out and say why it's not as glamorous as it may look to these potential recruits.

Why aren't we seeing that?

DALY: Well, you wonder, I mean, from an Irish guy's point of view, I wonder why there aren't more moderate Muslims who are saying, wait a minute, these guys are trying to hijack our religion and turn it into a cult of murder. I mean, that's a beautiful religion and it's -- and they're beautiful people who guide their lives by it. And for these guys to be hijacked it and turning it into torture and beheadings and, you know, to me, the best thing could happen would be if moderate Muslims came and showed people the truth of their religion and also showed the truth of ISIS and what they're really about.

CABRERA: Mubin, last word. Do you think that would work?

SHAIKH: Yes, that's happening. I mean, you have a lot of Muslims that, look, we don't need these people and we certainly don't want the heat that they're bringing on the rest of the community. You know, ISIS kills more Muslims than non-Muslims. They bully moderate Muslims. They threaten them with violence.

And I think what we need to do is, you're right, there needs to be more -- there does need to be more involvement by Muslims. But like you said, ex-ISIS fighters, and I've had discussions with FBI and Department of Justice in the U.S. The problem is that they've committed criminal offenses and they have to be charged. And so that dissuades a lot of them from coming back.

There's also a story now of the -- there's a few, like, dozen British fighters who had gone there, didn't like -- became disillusioned. This is how a lot of people get out of these groups. But now ISIS is threatening to kill them so -- and they're not getting much sympathy from people considering they went and joined this group in the first place. So there's a lot of policies that need to be fixed up around this.

CABRERA: Well, thank you, both, for sharing that.

Michael Daly and Mubin Shaikh, we appreciate it.

Now as the battle over mandatory quarantines rages on when we're talking about Ebola, a lot of people are asking, where is the new Ebola czar Ron Klain?

We'll discuss that straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Welcome back. More now on the developing Ebola crisis.

The White House pushing back on these mandatory quarantines initiated in three different states. New York, New Jersey, and Illinois have all imposed quarantines on returning health care workers who have treated patients in West Africa. The White House is now working on some new Ebola guidelines, it says, and this comes as some are wondering about the president's pick to coordinate the government's Ebola response.

Where is the Ebola czar, Ron Klain?

Our correspondent Erin McPike is at the White House. So, Erin, we haven't seen him in about a week since he took this

position?

ERIN MCPIKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ana, that's right, but the White House has been saying since the beginning, since choosing him, that he is supposed to be a behind-the-scenes figure. That he is coordinating this response and that he is working behind the scenes to group together the agencies and the departments that are working on crafting a response to Ebola and trying to get them to all work together.

I was speaking to a White House official just yesterday. We have heard from others making the same point. This is White House press secretary Josh Earnest has been saying, too, that he's been on the phone with a number of officials including New York and New Jersey, although there is that standoff going on right now. But that he is also going to be in the next week talking to some of those officials and also traveling to Atlanta to meet with leaders from the CDC.

Now we also are hearing from the White House that they want other experts to be the public face of this. That Dr. Anthony Fauci who was on CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION" this morning as well as the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., Samantha Power, who is of course in West Africa right now meeting with people on the ground there, as well as Dr. Tom Frieden at the CDC. Those are the people that they want to be carrying the message more publicly -- Ana.

CABRERA: All right. Erin McPike, we'll talk to you again at the top of the hour to continue the discussion on the administration's response to the Ebola outbreak here at home.

But coming up, we turn to Ferguson, Missouri. One of the centers of the civil rights conversation in America. But is it, in fact, a new civil rights movement, or is it a continuation of the civil rights era of the 1960s perhaps?

Up next, our conversation with two civil rights icons on the shooting of teenager Michael Brown and the 2 1/2 months that have followed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's been 77 days since teenager Michael Brown was shot and killed by Ferguson, Missouri, police officer Darren Wilson. In the tumultuous 2 1/2 months that have followed, protests have continued every single night.

There's growing conversation over whether America is experiencing a new civil rights movement led by young people.

I'm Sara Sidner in Missouri. I've spent many weeks here on the ground in Ferguson. The epicenter of this heated debate. But this is so far from the only place in America where the unrest has spilled over, where protests are happening. They're happening in New York, in Los Angeles, Atlanta, and back in St. Louis again.

In recent days, leaks from the grand jury and an Amnesty International report on Ferguson, have reignited the debate over what really happened. As the community readies for news from the grand jury deciding whether or not to indict the police officer, the question remains, are we seeing the creation of a new civil rights movement?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a demonstration in Montgomery, Alabama, led by Dr. Martin Luther King. In contrast to the violence of many marches, this one is held peacefully --

SIDNER: In 1950s and '60s a small group of people began a peaceful revolution that forever changed America. They became known as freedom's foot soldiers, and marched their way into the history books as the courageous leaders of the civil rights movement. Led by Martin Luther King Jr., their actions changed hearts, minds, and our history as they fought for equal rights and desegregated the nation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President Johnson addresses a joint session of Congress to push a voting rights bill aimed at ending discrimination.

SIDNER: Among those advocates for change, Julian Bond. A key figure in the student movement, he organized boycotts, sit-ins and picket lines in an effort to desegregate schools, parks, restaurants, and other public spaces.

Also, Dr. Alvin Poussaint, who provided medical care to civil rights workers and helped to desegregate health care facilities across the south. But their activism did not end with the movement, they decided, and dedicated their lives to fighting for equality and social justice for all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER: I'm honored to have both Julian Bond and Dr. Alvin Poussaint join me now.

Mr. Bond, let me start with you. What's been running through your mind as you've watched these protests unfold in Ferguson and in St. Louis?

JULIAN BOND, FORMER CHAIRMAN, NAACP: Well, really through my mind is running the idea this is not a new civil rights movement. This is a reinvigoration of the old civil rights movement. It brings some of the same techniques, some of the same activity, and some newness to it in that the numbers of young people are once again present.

SIDNER: Let me talk a little bit about what Amnesty International said this week. They sent a delegation to Ferguson. They just released a report that said the following. And I'm quoting here. They said, "The shooting of Michael Brown highlighted on a national level the persistent and widespread pattern of racial discriminatory actions and treatment by law enforcement officers across the United States including unjustified stops and searches, ill treatment and excessive and sometimes lethal use of force."

It said, "The United States government must do more to address systemic racial discrimination and ensure policing practices nationwide are brought into line with international human rights standards."

Doctor, let me go to you. Do you agree with what you're hearing from Amnesty International?

DR. ALVIN POUSSAINT, CO-AUTHOR OF "COME ON PEOPLE" WITH BILL COSBY: Well, I think we're seeing something, you know, spread nationally because it's been a national problem. Racial profiling has been a national problem. And using excessive force on blacks has been so common in cities all over the country, and there's an outgrowth of police brutality when blacks were segregated and discriminated against under Jim Crow, so this is a continuation of that.

And so people all around the country can identify with Michael Brown and then it comes on the heels of Trayvon Martin and that also ignites their passion that this has to stop. Their lives have to be taken seriously and they have to be valued and they just can't sit around and be abused and profiled by authorities.

SIDNER: If the evidence does support Wilson and the grand jury doesn't indict, why shouldn't protesters simply accept that as justice served? Because many of them have said to us, if they do not indict, this place, and I'm quoting here, "is going to blow."

BOND: You don't want that to happen, but you can understand that people are justifiably angry at things in Ferguson. This is a little town that could be Dixie 50 years ago. It hasn't caught up with the rest of the country. It's still, although heavily black, still ruled by white officers and white officeholders. It's a place where you think you could walk down the street and whistle Dixie and most people would say, hooray, hooray.

SIDNER: We took a few iconic photos from the '60s and juxtaposed them with some of the images that we saw in Ferguson in August. A protester being arrested. Tear gas being sprayed out. A protester being handcuffed. Large marches. Bottles and rocks thrown at police. A small group of people that were looting. I mean, there's a lot going on, and this particular protesting, it was very big in August, but it has remained every single night in Ferguson.

Is this a new civil rights movement? Or the continuation of the civil rights movement in the '60s?

POUSSAINT: Well, I think it's a continuation of protests. I mean, the civil rights movement was about protests and creating change but also working in communities to help the people in the grassroots way to participate in the political process. So I think the approach has a way of focusing attention on the issues and problems in Ferguson, and in other communities like that around the United States. And they're trying to get attention focused on that and their goal is a little bit more difficult.

I think they're looking for social justice in a system that's been stacked against them and where it's very hard. It's not like the -- the lunch counters. That was hard, too, but the goals were kind of clear in getting things desegregated and going after that and getting voting rights in 1965. Here, it's a little bit more blurred, but still, they want justice.

BOND: No, I'm talking to you from Montgomery, Alabama, where Dr. King led the Montgomery Bus Boycott. There's nothing people in Ferguson are not asking for that Dr. King and his comrades didn't ask for during the -- the bus boycott. It's the continuation of the same old thing.

This new old fixation is a media fixation. This is a continuation of the classic struggle of people of color to be treated decently, to be treated fairly. They've been trying it, going at this year after year after year after year. It's nothing new. It's old stuff repeated again and again. And it's going to keep on going that same way.

SIDNER: All right. Gentlemen, we're going to return in just a moment and talk about where do we go from here. How does the country move on? How does Ferguson move on?

Our conversation continues right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SIDNER: We've been talking about the city of Ferguson, Missouri, and its impact on the national conversation about race, justice and law enforcement in America.

I'm joined again by Julian Bond, civil rights activist and former NAACP chairman, and Dr. Alvin Poussaint, civil rights activist, author, professor and psychiatrist.

Mr. Bond, much of this conversation is about the relationship between black folks and law enforcement in America. I mean, how can police and protesters in Ferguson learn from the past?

BOND: The police can get out of these army machines they have, can get rid of these militarized, big, enormous -- I've never seen anything like this in my life, as I saw in Ferguson, Missouri. These mechanical things. It's scary to think that these things are used in a tiny town like that to quiet down the public and the population.

And I hope we never see anything like that again. That's one big step. The first step. The second step is to integrate the police department. Dr. Poussaint is absolutely right, this is an overwhelmingly white police department in an overwhelmingly black town. And that just cannot be.

SIDNER: Doctor Poussaint, protesters obviously say and feel that something has to change. So, in order for that to happen, I mean, how does this movement go on? Where do people go from here?

POUSSAINT: Well, you know, why can't we have a situation where the police and law enforcement are ready to set down with community leaders in Ferguson to talk about the issues surrounding police conduct and what the mission is to bridge some of the gap and to narrow some of the mistrust that exists between the community and the police department. That has not happened yet. Can that happen? Can that begin to happen

and then be supported by the politicians? The white ones as well in Ferguson and in Missouri? To help bring about this type of communication? And where there's a willingness to have some change. You're not just stick to the old status quo which is not working and will not work, and where when you have mobilized black people, it certainly isn't going to sell well.

So change has to take place, and I think it's not just a question of the Ferguson people protesting, it's also a question of the police and the politicians deciding we have to listen to what they're saying to us and we have to see what we can do improve this situation and make it better.

SIDNER: Mr. Bond, would you be surprised to hear some of the comments I've been hearing from some of those who were protesting who are saying if there's no indictment, even if all of the evidence points to, you know, Officer Wilson having justifiably done what he did in killing Michael Brown, even if that evidence pointed that, that they will still be out here protesting, that that is not going to stop anything if there is no indictment.

BOND: Of course, I would not be surprised to hear that. This is not just about Michael Brown. This is about years and years and years and years of police mistreatment of black people. In Ferguson, in Chicago, in Detroit, in Montgomery, Alabama, in every city and town in the United States. And until this process comes to an end, then these things are going to repeat themselves over and over again. Nobody should be surprised to hear that. They should be surprised if they didn't hear it.

SIDNER: And let me ask both of you, gentlemen, this. You know, Mr. Bond, you were there 50 years ago during the march on Washington. I mean, has America made as much progress as you had hoped for back then?

BOND: Of course not.

SIDNER: Has it made any progress in either of your minds?

BOND: Sure, it's made progress. This is a different country now than it was 50 years ago when the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed. This is a different country and a better country, but it's not a perfect country. And all of us, black, white, brown, yellow, green, all of us need to work on that and unless all of us are willing to do so, we can't complain when it doesn't turn out to be that way.

POUSSAINT: I agree with Julian that a lot has changed. There has been progress. You can see it. You can see it in the White House with a black president. That means many white Americans and all kinds of colors have voted for this black man to be president of the United States. That's a lot of change. And all the students who are going to college, the increase in the numbers and so on all over the country. There has been a change there.

And the fact that we don't have legalized segregation, that's also been a change. But I think there's remnants in this society, pockets in the society, that remain very, very racist. That still needs to be eradicated in America. And that's what this movement in Ferguson is all about.

SIDNER: Julian Bond, Dr. Alvin Poussaint, thank you for joining us.

CNN NEWSROOM now with Ana Cabrera continues.