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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

Interview with Hawaii Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard; Ebola Fears; Body of Missing Virginia Student Found?; Ebola Patient Released from Emory; Hannah Graham's Remains Found?

Aired October 20, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Twenty-one days under quarantine, watched for Ebola, but now free to eat at restaurants, go to the movies, shop at the mall. But what if 21 days was not enough?

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The national lead, 44 more people told they do not have Ebola after spending three weeks in quarantine or under observation. But some lawmakers are saying 21 days is not nearly enough time to know for sure. The World Health Organization waits longer to clear some cases. So who's right?

Plus, the number of dead in West Africa multiplying by the hour with no signs scientists are remotely close to a vaccine, much less a cure. Should we start counting the months until this disease strikes again here in the U.S.?

And a crisp Virginia afternoon giving way to a grisly scene and crime tape, police finding human remains deep in the Virginia woods. Have they finally found University of Virginia student Hannah Graham?

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to THE LEAD.

We're going to begin with the national lead. She was supposed to get married this week, but, instead Louise Troh, the fiancee of Thomas Eric Duncan, the first U.S. Ebola patient to die from the virus, she is trying to sort out how to return to some sense of normalcy now that her family has been released from a 21-day quarantine.

The quarantine denied her the chance to attend a weekend memorial service for Duncan, the man she loved. It seems almost miraculous that Troh, her son and two nephews never contracted the virus despite being in close quarters with Duncan at the height of his sickens, even cleaning up his soiled sheets.

Remember, the two nurses wearing protective gear when they treated Duncan still managed to get the disease. Today, one of those nurses, Nina Pham, is said to be doing well as she recovers not far from here at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Virginia. Doctors say she is sitting up, she's eating, even joking around with the hospital staff.

The other nurse, Amber Vinson, she is being treated at Emory University Hospital in Atlanta. Her uncle says she's doing OK. Vinson's family also defending her decision to fly to Ohio after treating Duncan. They released a statement noting all the times, they say, that Amber sought guidance and provided information to the CDC and to county officials.

They state she "has not and would not knowingly expose herself or anyone else to the virus."

More than 150 people who came into contact in some way directly with Vinson during her trip are now being monitored in Texas and Ohio. While most health officials will breathe a sigh of relief if no new cases crop up within the 21-day monitoring period, there are others who are raising the question, what if 21 days isn't really enough?

CNN's Tom Foreman joins me now.

Tom, we have heard all along, after 21 days, if you show no symptoms, you're in the clear. Is there a chance that that number is not the right number?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, amid all the confusion and concern over this terrifying disease, this is the latest battlefront. How long should people who might have this disease be kept away from all the rest of us?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN (voice-over): From the beginning of this outbreak, the CDC has insisted if someone gets Ebola, the symptoms will show up in 21 days or less. It is a cornerstone of their science.

And yet the World Health Organization says not 21, but 42 days must pass before a country suffering an outbreak can be called Ebola-free. Why? The key difference rests in the idea of a single person vs. a community. Whereas health officials say one person with the disease could be expected to show symptoms within 21 days, if he or she transmits it to another, a whole new 21-day cycle begins with that next person.

Still, where does that magic number, 21, come from? Researchers at Drexel University found the origin is murky, but it seems to have been described from case studies of out breaks in Zaire in 1976 and Uganda in 2000. The problem is the Drexel team also discovered that other outbreaks in other places have seen people coming down with symptoms past the 21-day cutoff.

DR. CHARLES HAAS, DREXEL UNIVERSITY: Well, based on the prior outbreaks, there's up to a 12 percent chance of people becoming ill even after a 21-day incubation period.

FOREMAN: It's only one study, but certainly others appear wary of the state of Ebola science. Syracuse University, for example, recently canceled a talk by a photographer who has documented the Ebola outbreak, even though he had been out of the hot zone and showing no symptoms of the disease well past the 21-day limit.

(END VIDEOTAPE) FOREMAN: Clearly, part of the problem is that there have been missteps in the handling of Ebola here, Jake. You have seen this before. A few missteps feed this concern, feed this fear that maybe something is wrong in the basic science.

And that's now becoming part of the equation.

TAPPER: Interesting. Tom Foreman, thank you so much.

At least one lawmaker is already demanding a longer watch period for those who come into contact with Ebola patients. Hawaii Democratic Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard released a statement which reads in part -- quote -- "The research the CDC is basing its 21-day standard on is outdated and therefore its policies regarding quarantine or the monitoring of individuals who have been directly exposed to Ebola patients needs to be updated."

Congresswoman Gabbard joins me now live from Honolulu.

Congresswoman, thank you for joining us.

Thomas Eric Duncan's family was released from quarantine today. Essentially, you're saying they should still be in isolation even if health officials think they're OK.

REP. TULSI GABBARD (D), HAWAII: First of all, aloha, Jake.

When we look a the recent studies that have come out, when we look at some of the information that the World Health Organization has put out, we find in about 5 percent of Ebola patients, their incubation period went beyond that 21-day period.

What I'm saying and what I'm calling for the CDC to do is to recognize the seriousness of this illness and make sure that we're erring on the side of caution and understanding that extending this incubation -- or extending this period where people are monitored or quarantined beyond the 21 days would be in the best interest of making sure that more people aren't infected here at home.

TAPPER: Well, let's talk about that. So, 95 percent of these cases, according to the World Health Organization, the incubation period is 21 days. And as you point out, 5 percent, it's longer than that.

Of that 5 percent, 3 percent is 42 days. And then there's 2 percent that's beyond 42 days. So using that logic, why 42 days, why not 60 days, why not 90 days?

GABBARD: I think we can look at the direction that's coming from the World Health Organization. We want to get to as close a foolproof methodology as possible to make sure people aren't spreading this illness.

But I think actually it's even more important for us to answer a different question, which is, how do we stop us from getting to this point? The situation as I see it is kind of like we're in a boat. There's a big hole in the boat and the boat is filling up with water and people are scrambling and trying to bail the boat out with buckets, but not actually plugging the hole.

And the hole that we have to deal with here is the fact that the procedures that are in place, interviewing and checking temperatures, that allowed Mr. Duncan to come into the United States infected in the first place are still in place today. And that is a gaping hole that we have to deal with.

And there's a couple of things that I think we need to do to make that happen.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Right. You have talked about a travel ban for people coming from West Africa.

GABBARD: Exactly.

TAPPER: I want to -- President Obama was asked about that just a few days ago. And here's how he responded, because he does not think there should be one put in place. Let's take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: History shows that there is a likelihood of increased avoidance. People do not readily disclose their information. They may engage in something called broken travel, essentially breaking up their trip, so that they can hide the fact that they have been to one of these countries where there is a disease in place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, Congresswoman, President Obama, who I know you support very much, he says it's counterproductive to have a travel ban, people will hide that they came from West Africa. Your response?

GABBARD: Mr. Duncan did not disclose that he had been in contact with people infected with Ebola. That's a case in point right there.

That shows the holes in that argument. And, secondly, as far as the broken travel, people can travel to different countries and take different routes. That's why we have passports, and we can look at the stamps and the visas in their passports to look back and see if their country of origin was coming from one of these West African countries that's stricken with this illness.

TAPPER: Congresswoman, what do you say to those who say that politicians like you, people in the media like me, we are sensationalizing this, we are making a bigger deal out of it than it is, it's only one death in the United States, everybody, get a grip? What do you say to that?

GABBARD: Well, let's look at how many thousands of people have died from this virus in other parts of the country where it has been allowed to spread.

TAPPER: You mean other parts of the world.

GABBARD: It is our responsibility -- in other parts of the world, sorry.

It is our responsibility to make sure that we don't allow that to happen, which is why we need to take steps to make sure that the American people are protected and we don't end up in a situation where we have a growth of infections and a further outbreak that will become -- it will put us in a position where we're no longer able to help quell this in the source in West Africa, because we will be focusing all of our resources, all of our attention on dealing with an outbreak here at home.

We can best help those in West Africa by making sure that we take these important steps to close the door, to plug those holes here in the United States. And then we can dedicate resources to stopping it at its source in West Africa.

TAPPER: It's kind of interesting that you're speaking out on this, just because a lot of the people speaking out have been accused of doing so because of election-year politics.

I know you won your election with 80 percent of the vote. It's not like a thriving Republican Party in your congressional district exactly. Why are you speaking out? Are other Democrats asking you to do so because they don't want to be seen as disloyal to the president? What's the reason that you're doing so?

GABBARD: That's the problem right there, Jake, is far too many people are politicizing an issue that's not political at all.

This is an issue that deals with what is in the best interest of keeping the American people safe from an infectious disease that is killing thousands of people in other parts of the world and that we have seen has already affected certain communities here at home.

We actually have a responsibility as elected leaders to do what's right for the people, to transcend the politics of the season and actually do the right thing to make that change and prevent that outbreak from happening here.

TAPPER: Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, Democrat of Hawaii, thank you so much. Really appreciate that. Better get that phone call. Thanks so much for joining us.

Coming up on THE LEAD: Drug companies working overtime to stop Ebola, but is the disease moving faster than the science?

Plus, is this what evil looks like? Indiana police arrest a man for murder and then he admits to taking the lives of six other women. Are there even more? That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. More in our national lead -- some breaking news out of Atlanta, where Emory University Hospital says the unnamed patient infected with Ebola there has been released, still identified, the health care worker seen here in silhouette came down with the virus while working for the World Health Organization. He's spent more than a month in treatment, but some good news for him. That good news, however, obscures just how desperately the entire medical community is working to unlock the secrets of the Ebola virus. It's so deadly it often kills those who know it best.

Five co-authors of a recent article in "Science Magazine" about Ebola died from Ebola before the piece was published. And the latest research shows the virus is mutating as it infects humans.

Joining me to discuss ways to stop Ebola is author Richard Preston. His best-selling book "The Hot Zone" detailed an Ebola outbreak, and his latest work "The Ebola Wars" is in the newest edition of "The New Yorker Magazine". And it's fascinating.

Richard, thanks for joining us.

One of the aspects of Ebola you convey so well and scarily so is as you write, quote, "as the virus jumped from person to person" -- this is in Africa -- "about half the time it had a mutation in it and as it mutates this disease becomes less perceptible to the Ebola tests for it."

It sounds terrifying.

RICHARD PRESTON, AUTHOR: Well, it's a little bit alarming to see Ebola doing this. But Ebola is a type of virus that you would call -- it's a fast mutator. Now, these are small changes in the virus but they happen very frequently.

The problem with Ebola is it makes mistakes while it copies itself. The mistakes were actually good for Ebola because they help Ebola change. And as a result of this, you know, as you pointed out, as it jumps from one human body to the next, roughly half the time, it's got a mutation.

So, what this means is that the tests, the drugs and the vaccines are all keyed into that genetic code of the virus. If the virus is changing, then the drugs, the vaccines and the tests may not be as effective. But, fortunately, as I understand it, they can now change the tests a little bit to keep up with Ebola.

So as long as we can keep our eyes on Ebola, as long as we can watch how the genes of this virus are changing, we can do something about it.

TAPPER: It's almost like a race to outsmart a virus that is more intelligent or at least as intelligent as us. I know that's simplifying it.

But I guess another question is, can it even be stopped by vaccine or a cure or because of its mutation, is containment truly the best that mankind can hope for in battling this disease?

PRESTON: Well, actually, we are -- we're pretty smart. The virus itself is not intelligent as we are. In other words, it's not a conscious entity.

TAPPER: Of course not.

PRESTON: But it's very much an entity. As a biological thing, it's clever in its own way.

But what we have is we have the ability to move fast in developing drugs and vaccines and methods of using them. So, at a recent count, I counted 19 different possible countermeasures against Ebola, meaning drugs or vaccines. Now, they're all in early development. There's nothing that's come a long way.

But I think what we need to do now as a national effort is to really concentrate on testing these things and moving them through the testing procedures to make them usable weapons against Ebola.

TAPPER: Amazingly, Richard, the hot zone came out 21 years ago. I can't believe it's been that long. It scared a lot of people back then. It scared a lot of people into action back then.

But did you think we would be in 2014 as a society better prepared than we are or are we going OK?

PRESTON: Well, I think we're doing the best we can, and there may be a little bit of finger-pointing. There always is in a situation like this.

But I think of Ebola as an act of nature. It's the biological equivalent of a tsunami. And, yes, we are having trouble handling it. I think we sometimes give ourselves a little bit too much credit as humans as being able to control and understand nature when, in fact, we do neither.

Nature is full of surprises and this outbreak of Ebola, which is no longer an outbreak. It's now really a classical epidemic, seems to have, in effect, come out of nowhere. The virus exploited conditions in the human species in order to be able to move much more rapidly than it has done in the past.

TAPPER: Thank you so much. Richard Preston, appreciate it. Look forward to, I understand you're updating "The Hot Zone". Look forward to reading that.

PRESTON: Yes, I'm getting the science up to date.

TAPPER: All right. Thank you so much.

Still ahead, Hannah Graham's parents clinging to the slimmest hope their daughter might still be alive. Now perhaps extinguished forever, those hopes, after investigators find skeletal remains miles from where she was last seen alive. Are police confident that they have actually found her? Plus, a sordid tale of sex and murder turning downright ghoulish when

a murder suspect allegedly tells police he's killed at least six other women. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD.

Some national news now. Forensic tests are seemingly the only thing standing between Hannah Graham's family and a final, awful confirmation that their daughter, a fresh woman at the University of Virginia, is dead. After five weeks of frenzied searches, through miles of overgrown backwoods, police stumbled across a skull and bones Saturday afternoon, the remains scattered across a creek bed behind an abandoned home just eight miles from where she was last seen alive.

Investigators also found a pair of black pants, similar to the ones Hannah was wearing on the night she vanished.

CNN correspondent Jean Casarez is in Charlottesville, Virginia.

Jean, you're awaiting a news conference by authorities. What more will they be able to tell us today?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we are awaiting a press conference. That's in Fairfax City, Virginia. It is due north east of here. And CNN has been able to confirm that Jesse Matthew has been indicted in a 2005 rape in that city, Fairfax City, and the commonwealth's attorney as well as the local police chief are going to be speaking in just moments.

Now, we were able to receive that indictment. He's been -- the indictment returned on three counts, attempted capital murder, abduction with the intent to defile and also sexual assault. And this victim is alive. So pending an investigation going forward, she will be able to speak.

Now, here's a very different situation because here, remains were found on Saturday, unknown remains at this point. And the crime scene investigators continue to process this crime scene. They say it is an extremely difficult crime scene because, as you say, it is all skeletonized. We were able to confirm that.

As you said, the skeleton did not have flesh. It did not have hair. But there were black pants near the remains. And at this point, we do not even know if those remains have been taken to the chief medical examiner in Richmond. But an autopsy will be confirmed and that will determine the identity, is this Hannah Graham?

This also will determine the cause and manner of death. But suddenly this missing person's case is now a death investigation.

TAPPER: Does this discovery of this body necessarily mean anything for Jesse Matthew, the suspect that you just referred to?

CASAREZ: Most definitely it could because those black pants you mentioned that were found close to the remains, that is where they will try to find perpetrator DNA. You cannot find it on skeletal remains. But you can find it on an item. That could exonerate Jesse Matthew or if his DNA is found, that could take this abduction with intent to defile, a felony charge right here in Charlottesville and it could upgrade it, Jake, to murder charges.

TAPPER: And he grew up about four miles or so from where the body was found, is that right?

CASAREZ: You know, we were going to neighbors yesterday and we suddenly got into some homes and we found the home and spoke to the neighbors of the house that he lived in with his mother. And he was more of an adult. He wasn't a child. He lived there for about six, eight years, moving out about 2008.

But they said they saw him regularly. He and his mother were very nice. His mother moved them out to the county so he would get with a better crowd of people and any alleged gangs in Charlottesville, that he'd be away from there. But then, suddenly, they moved. But what it shows those neighbors is that he knows the area.

TAPPER: Jean Casarez in Charlottesville, Virginia -- thank you so much.