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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

Interview with CDC Director Tom Frieden; Containing Ebola Outbreak in the U.S.; Can Ebola Go Airborne?

Aired October 6, 2014 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


OBAMA: But we have a larger role than that. We also have an obligation to make sure that those children and their families are safe as well because ultimately the best thing we can do for our public health is also to extend the kind of empathy, compassion and effort so that folks in those countries as well can be rid of this disease. All right?

(CROSSTALK)

OBAMA: Thank you very much, everybody. Thank you, everybody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That's President Obama calling for additional screenings and trying to reassure the American people about the threat from Ebola. Let's go to the director for the Centers for Disease Control, Thomas Frieden, who was in that briefing with the president and in fact joins me right now from the North Lawn of the White House. Thank you so much for joining us. What specifically new screening protocol will be put in place?

DR. TOM FRIEDEN, DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: We're looking at all of the options. We want to do something that protects Americans, not something that either is done for show or something that won't have an impact.

The key is that we keep Americans safe. That's the number one priority of the president. That's the number one priority of the whole of government, including CDC.

Part of that means making sure we don't do anything that will make it harder for us to stop the outbreak in West Africa.

TAPPER: Dr. Frieden, I want to look forward with you, but I do want to ask you about last week. The CDC, last Tuesday, announced that they had isolated Thomas Eric Duncan in Dallas for Ebola. And I think there are a lot of questions about why it took until the end of the week, Friday, before those soiled towels and sweat-stained sheets were removed from the apartment he had stayed in where those other individuals were quarantined.

Can the CDC really say that it's prepared when something like that happens? FRIEDEN: We wish the medical waste issue had been resolved sooner. There was a glitch in doing it. It's resolved now and for any future cases is resolved.

The bottom line about stopping the outbreak or stopping any transmission or spread of Ebola in Dallas is contact tracing. And the team on the ground, the city of Dallas, the locations around there in the state, as well as our CDC staff on the ground are doing a superb job.

They've identified ten people who look like they had contact with the index patient and 38 who might have. And every one of those 48 people is being monitored for fever. If they develop it, they will be isolated so we break the chain of transmission. That's how you stop Ebola.

TAPPER: There were a number of glitches. Obviously, initially, the hospital sent Mr. Duncan back home. There's the questions about the waste. The questions about whether those quarantines should have stayed in those homes.

Can we look at what happened at Dallas as -- as a case study so that other communities, God forbid there is another instance of Ebola in this country, can say, well, we've learned, because Dallas and the CDC made those mistakes, that's not going to happen again?

Can you reassure the American people that those mistakes will not repeat themselves?

FRIEDEN: We learn from every experience and we make our performance better the next time. The first thing that you mentioned, he went to the emergency department. They got the history that he had been in West Africa, but they didn't take the appropriate steps.

We're working with hospitals throughout the U.S., with health departments throughout the U.S. to make sure that that's the kind of thing that really should not happen.

Medical waste, as I mentioned, I think that's resolved. And the issue on contact tracing, that's the key. We have to focus on what really matters here. The bottom line, the simple truth here, that we stop Ebola by tracking every contact and making sure that the moment they have any symptoms, they're isolated. That's how you break the chain of transmission.

TAPPER: There's news today, of course, of this nurse in Spain contracting Ebola, the first time in this outbreak that somebody outside of West Africa contracted the disease.

Do we have any better idea why these people who are -- who are tending to Ebola patients keep getting sick if the medical community purports to know how the virus is spread?

FRIEDEN: I haven't seen the details of what happened in Spain?

I do know that caring for Ebola patients requires a great degree of meticulous attention to detail, rigorous, meticulous attention to detail, because even a single lapse can end up exposing a health care worker.

That's why today, we began an intensive training of people who will be deploying at CD -- CDC is doing this training in Anniston, Alabama, at a FEMA facility of 60 people who will be deploying over, really in- depth, detailed training so that we can reduce or eliminate that risk if at all possible.

You know, Doctors without Borders, MSF, have been caring for patients for a long time. They did have one infection recently and someone who wasn't actually in their treatment unit but outside of it. But other than that -- and that's too -- one is too many -- they've had years of experience without a single infection.

So we think that we know clearly how to stop it from spreading. But it does require meticulous attention to detail.

TAPPER: Clear something up for me, if you would. Yesterday, you said that Mr. Duncan in Dallas is not receiving any experimental treatments. But today we heard from a different federal official that that's not true. And Duncan's nephew told CNN that he is receiving, I guess it's called Brincidofovir, which is an anti-viral drug.

What's the truth here?

FRIEDEN: I was asked about specific experimental treatments. In terms of his treatment, that's really up to him, the treating physician, the hospital on what information to release. There are some other medications like the one you mentioned that are available through emergency authorization of the Food and Drug Administration. They may or may not work. They may or may not be promising in a model that we call in vitro or in glass studies or test tube studies.

But clearly, we want to do anything possible to increase his chances of survival.

TAPPER: Have you heard of this recent survey of registered nurses, 80 percent of whom say the hospital has not communicated a policy on potential Ebola patients?

It's been made public by National Nurses United. They performed the survey. They say more training and supplies are needed immediately.

I know the CDC has been putting out alerts and trying to communicate with hospitals all over the country about this.

But is it possible that the hospitals haven't been listening enough?

FRIEDEN: We absolutely are using this as a teachable moment so that every hospital in the country needs to understand they need to be on the alert. They need to take a travel history. We have a checklist and a poster available for every emergency department, every doctor, every nurse, to think systematically about what to do. That's the most way to get rigorous attention to detail. And that's what we're doing here. We've seen calls from interested people or concerned people to CDC increase nearly twentyfold since the case was diagnosed. So it's now top of mind for doctors, nurses and others throughout the country.

And we're going to ensure that that interest is translated into appropriate protocols and following those protocols.

TAPPER: Are you concerned at all when you hear about the results of a poll like that, saying 80 percent of nurses say that they're not ready?

FRIEDEN: We know that we need to do a lot to keep people alert and informed. There are certain things that aren't that complicated to know. If someone has been in West Africa, in any of these three countries, in the past 21 days, and they've got a fever or other symptoms that might be Ebola, isolate them, evaluate them and if appropriate, get a test done. That's the key message.

TAPPER: All right, Dr. Frieden of the CDC, thank you.

And we, of course, wish you all the best of luck.

FRIEDEN: Thank you very much.

TAPPER: Coming up, I'll be joined by an expert in infectious diseases who fears that Ebola could mutate and even become airborne. Does he agree with the CDC director's assessment? He'll respond coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to "THE LEAD." Another American with the Ebola virus is back in the United States for treatment today. Ashoka Mukpo, is a freelance photographer for NBC, he arrived in Omaha, Nebraska, from Liberia just a few hours ago. His father who's a doctor says he looks strong and that his symptoms haven't advanced thankfully. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the first man to be diagnosed with this horrible virus inside the United States, Thomas Duncan, who slid into critical condition over the weekend in Dallas as health officials try to track down everyone who may have been exposed. CNN national correspondent Martin Savidge has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Even as they prayed for the patient and those still being monitored.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are here to care for people in the name of Christ.

SAVIDGE: ... the effort to contain America's first domestic case of Ebola ran into new problems, to prevent an Ebola outbreak, state and federal authorities are monitoring close to 50 other people who may have had contact with patient Thomas Duncan. Visiting them twice a day, taking their temperature and looking for symptoms. Sunday one of those being monitored went missing, a homeless man transported in the same ambulance which had taken Ebola victim Thomas Duncan to the hospital. The risk was small but it's possible the man could have come in contact with something Duncan had also touched in the ambulance. Police began searching for him. The concern was if the man came down with Ebola, no one might know as he wandered the streets.

VOICE OF JUDGE CLAY JENKINS, DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS: We just need to locate this individual and we could use your help in letting them know they're not in trouble.

SAVIDGE: By midafternoon, the missing man had been found. Then came this news --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're told that there are two other contacts of Duncan's who they can't seem to find.

SAVIDGE: By day's end, everyone was accounted for. But many Dallas residents want tighter restrictions placed upon those being monitored. In the movies, it's the feds that come sweeping in and locking things down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your town is being quarantined!

SAVIDGE: In reality, it's the local government who's in charge, assisted by the feds. In this case, the Center for Disease Control and Prevention. So why not just lock everyone up? Legal experts say in a case like this, local authorities can do almost anything but --

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: The real question becomes not so much when one person's liberty is threatened but once that one person becomes five and that five becomes 20 or 30, and I think we're going to see some real backlash if it comes to that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE: And one of the other issues that really needs to be worked out here, those people in quarantine, they have no recourse when it comes to getting the money they're losing. In other words, by not going to work and how will they pay for their rent, how will they cover other costs. And then there's this to think of -- if there is another Ebola case somewhere in the country, God forbid, it could be that those people who fear being quarantined would run away instead of turning themselves into authorities. And that would really be a problem. Jake?

TAPPER: Martin Savidge, thank you so much.

He says Ebola is the single greatest concern he's had in his four decades in public health, a doctor sounding the alarm on Ebola like we haven't heard before. Why he thinks America must be better prepared for it, especially because it might go airborne, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. More now on the Ebola virus. It has already sparked a health crisis in West Africa that the director of the CDC referred to as a scene out of "Detente." But there is another reason why this epidemic is keeping the medical community up at night. Some infectious disease experts worry that Ebola could mutate and go airborne paving the way for this potentially deadly virus to spread through the air as easily as that common cold.

Joining me now is Dr. Michael Osterholm. He is the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.

Dr. Osterholm, before we get to that, you just heard me speak with the CDC Director Dr. Thomas Frieden who said the U.S. is prepared to stop Ebola and prevent an outbreak. Do you agree with that? Is the U.S. prepared?

DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICY: I do agree with that. I think we really are misreading the risk as it relates to this virus in this country. We will likely have potential cases coming into this country again.

I think that as we go forward, we'll see virtually no transmission outside of the initial introduction of the case and potential close contacts in those first hours that they're here. That's it.

TAPPER: Well, that's good to hear. You've said that you can't imagine anything more devastating than Ebola going airborne. What would make that happen? Are there any indications that it has already started to happen?

OSTERHOLM: Well, first of all, let me just put it into context. It was part of a larger piece that I wrote in "The New York Times" in which I talked about what we call Plan B. We need to be thinking forward.

Six months ago, if you would ask infectious disease experts particularly Ebola experts, would we be seeing the situation we're seeing now, they would have said no.

We do know that this virus has been actually transmitted by the airborne route between monkeys with monkeys and we that don't understand exactly why. Do I think this is a big risk? No.

So it's just part of the plan. I think a much bigger risk is this virus actually moving out of West Africa, to Central Africa and getting into the slum areas of cities like Lagos or Nairobi and actually making the cases in West Africa only a small part of the outbreak.

That's the concern I have. When that happens, the rest of the world will continue to feel all those sparks flying out of Africa and landing all throughout the world.

TAPPER: Explain to us if you would, how is it that so many people in the medical community keep getting Ebola? We have the nurse in Spain. We have the missionary and the doctor who are in West Africa.

I would think that the protocols are established, people know not to have contact with fluids from the patients and yet this is still happening. People in the medical community are getting infected.

OSTERHOLM: Well, first of all, I think the remarkable thing is the few people that have become infected giving this kind of care. As we heard earlier, "Doctors Without Borders" actually now has a second case.

But for the many, hundreds and hundreds of medical personnel, who have cared for patients under very difficult conditions, literally these are patients who have leaking the virus out of their bodies.

So when you're in this protective gear, it is difficult to actually perform the kind of medical care. You're putting those outfits on and off. It's almost like running across the freeway six or seven times a day and hoping you don't get hit doing that because outside those particular garments may be contaminated.

So on a whole, I think that we've actually done quite well. Do we want any health care workers to get infected? None. But this is part of the occupational hazard. So I think actually groups like "Doctors Without Borders" proves that you can provide medical care under very difficult conditions.

And given the number of thousands of cases that have occurred, the number of health care workers, while very, very regrettable, is actually quite a testament to what infection control can do reduce infection transmission.

TAPPER: All right, Dr. Osterholm, thank you so much. Appreciate your time, sir.

OSTERHOLM: Thank you very much.

TAPPER: Coming up on our Pop Culture Lead, a fierce debate about Islam as actor, Ben Affleck, and comedian, Bill Maher, face off discussing ISIS. What led Affleck to accuse the host and another guest of racism?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. A very timely Pop Culture Lead now. They are both poster boys for Hollywood liberalism. But when it comes to their views on Islam, Ben Affleck and Bill Maher are much further apart than you might think.

Of course, neither of them are Muslim either. On the most recent episode of Maher's show, the celebrities got into a heated debate when discussing the role of Islam in so many of the world's crises, especially with ISIS in Iraq and Syria. And Affleck accused Maher of being racist against Muslims.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN AFFLECK: How about the more than a billion people who aren't fanatical, who want to go to school?

BILL MAHER: You're stereotyping. AFFLECK: You're painting the whole religion --

MAHER: Let's get down to who has the right answer here. A billion people, you say. All these billion people don't hold these pernicious beliefs?

AFFLECK: No, they don't.

MAHER: That's just not true, Ben. It's the only religion that acts like the mafia that will (inaudible) kill you if you say the wrong thing, draw the wrong picture or write the wrong book.

AFFLECK: The question is the degree to which you're willing to say, because I've witnessed this behavior, which we all object to on the part of these people, I'm willing to flatly condemn those of you I don't know and have never met --

BAHER: Not condemning people. It's ideas.

AFFLECK: And people who believe in those ideas. Based on reality, Ben. We're not making it up that in the Muslim world, it is mainstream belief --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is such a caricature of Indonesia, of Malaysia -- this has the tinge about how white racists talk about black Americans.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: You may have noticed also speaking there was "New York Times" columnist, Nick Kristof, author, Sam Harris and former Republican National Committee chairman, Michael Steele. All of them trying to get a word in edgewise.

The segment began with Maher addressing criticism over recent comments he'd made about Islam. He's made several controversial comments including claims that a vast majority of Muslims think people deserve to die for having different viewpoints and the conversation went on from there.

Make sure to follow me on Twitter @jaketapper and also @theleadcnn. That is it for THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. I now turn you over to one Mr. Wolf Blitzer who is right next door to me in "THE SITUATION ROOM."