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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Texas Officials Contact 100 Regarding Interaction with Ebola Patient; Ebola Patient's Family in Quarantine; Dallas Schools on Alert

Aired October 2, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everyone. Thanks so much for staying with us on our live continuing breaking coverage of the Ebola situation in the Dallas/Fort Worth area.

Some updated information we want to give you in addition to our Anderson Cooper's exclusive interview with the partner of the man at the center of this crisis, the partner of Thomas Eric Duncan, who says she is now under quarantine with three other family members, a child of hers and two nephews, who were in the apartment and in contact with Mr. Duncan during his contagious stage, the time that he was sent away from the hospital, the time he started developing symptoms of Ebola, to the time that he was actually diagnosed and quarantined. They are under quarantine in that apartment.

They also reporting to Anderson Cooper that they effectively don't even know what to do with the sheets that are still on the bed, the sheets that she was on. She shared that bed with Mr. Duncan. He was sweating profusely during the night with the fever he suffered from because of the Ebola infection.

Not only that, but the towels that they used, all she was told was to just bag them up, but they're still in the apartment. Her name is Louise. She doesn't want to give her last name, but she also reports that there's no one else in the apartment giving them these instructions on a regular basis, that she has so many other questions about what to do.

She doesn't know where she's going to get food because they are being prevented from leaving that apartment, those four family members, direct family members of Thomas Eric Duncan, the patient at the center of this Ebola outbreak, at least the diagnosis of that patient here in the United States.

As you'll know, he also was able to go through -- transit through Dallas/Fort Worth airport but also Dulles -- Dulles -- airport, in Washington, D.C. Granted those were at a time when he wasn't necessarily showing those symptoms, but this is a very concerning development in the story.

I also want to let you know the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, they're going to be giving a live press conference at 1:00 p.m. to update the situation with regards to this patient and those he may have come into contact with.

The latest reporting, a government official telling us, there may be up to 100 different people that patient may have either been in direct contact with or that those he was in contact with may have made contact with as well.

Two-thirds of them, the Dallas mayor reporting to us just within the last few moments, actually within the hospital itself.

I want to bring in some people with some excellent information and perspective on this. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, my colleague, is live from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta. He's joining us this afternoon.

Also Dr. Alexander van Tulleken a senior fellow at Fordham University's Humanitarian Affairs Institute. And Dr. Stephen Morse is the director of the Center for Public Health Preparedness at Columbia University.

First to you, Sanjay, I know that you were listening along as Anderson reported that information from his exclusive interview with Louise.

I was astounded that there isn't someone from the CDC dressed in some kind of hazmat suit, helping her through this in that apartment, helping to make sure that perhaps she doesn't become infected if she isn't already by the items that are still in the apartment?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPNDENT: Yeah. That was a bit troubling, no question, Ashleigh, I mean, just the fact that the sheets are still on the bed, the towels that presumably he was using to help clean himself, even after he became ill.

There is a chance -- we know the Ebola virus can live outside the body, can live on surfaces. To be fair, it would be unlikely to actually get infected by touching those surfaces, but why take the chance, to your point, and I think it's a very good one.

I would like -- I would love to hear from the CDC employees that have been visiting her apartment in terms of what they have told her and why some of these things haven't taken place, to sort of get the full understanding of how that communication is going.

The other thing I just want to make clear as well, when we talk about the 100 people, Ashleigh, that are being -- they're trying to reach these people, to talk to them, not all of them are being monitored right now.

But these are not necessarily contacts of contacts. These are not people who -- the people who are family members, for example, of Mr. Duncan had contact with. These are people Mr. Duncan himself may have had contact with. And it's an important point because, again, they're only worried if you came in contact with someone who was sick with Ebola, not if you came in contact with a contact.

So these are new terms, I think, for a lot of people right now, but these are important terms. Those hundred people, many of them may not have any cause for concern at all, but there may be some that are going to be asked to monitor themselves, to take their temperature and to see if they have fever as possibly a first sign of infection.

BANFIELD: That's a huge, huge significant clarification. Thank you for that, Sanjay, that 100 people in direct contact, so we're not factoring those who may have had contact with those who had contact with Thomas Duncan.

Sanjay, stand by for a moment. Thank you for that.

I want to bring in Dr. Morse and Dr. van Tulleken.

Louise, as you probably heard reporting to Anderson Cooper from inside her apartment under quarantine says that -- and this was troubling -- she doesn't think that she came into contact with the bodily fluids of this patient, but dear god, we've got medical professionals in Africa who are fully suited in hazmat who have become ill who absolutely didn't believe they came in contact.

I wanted you both to just weigh in on this with what you think about the notion she could have possibly been in this apartment for that long with him. And I'll start with you, Dr. Morse.

STEPHEN MORSE, CENTER FOR PUBLIC HEALTH PREPAREDNESS, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Well, of course, I think it is possible, and she does need to be carefully monitored, she needs to take her temperature every day, and if she feels anything like even the flu-like illness, obviously to go and -- go to the hospital, and hopefully, they will put her into isolation this time.

But she could be lucky. And as far as the sheets go, if she has another bed to sleep in, you know, maybe it would be better not to touch things that the patient has touched.

BANFIELD: I believe that she said she's not been sleeping in that bed, but Dr. van Tulleken, my god, just the notion that she's in a small apartment with four people and a man who's been suffering from terrible diarrhea, terrible vomiting, how is it possible you can't come into contact with one tiny virus, somewhere in that apartment?

DR. ALEXANDER VAN TULLEKEN, SENIOR FELLOW, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: I agree. And I think you get a sense of the kind of lack of humanity in the way they're treating this family.

In a sense we've heard that they're now legally enforcing this quarantine order and that really -- once public health is doing that, you feel that's not a nice way of dealing with it.

BANFIELD: Don't you think that's critical?

VAN TULLEKEN: Absolutely, but what you want to do is make it easy for that family. She said she was having difficulty staying at home.

They need someone bringing them food. They need someone bringing them linen. They need a task force of people, making it easy for them to stay at home. BANFIELD: Interestingly, we had a report that they were going to

provide that for her, but she just --

VAN TULLEKEN: Doesn't sound like it's been --

BANFIELD: -- said to Anderson she doesn't know how she's going to get food in the apartment.

VAN TULLEKIN: Doesn't sound like she's in contact with people. It doesn't sound -- and the reason I say it's sinister when you hear about the legal enforcement -- clearly, they should be doing it -- but when that's the main tool, that isn't going to work for large numbers of people. And that's what worries me.

BANFIELD: Am I just -- I guess talk me off the ledge here, Dr. Morse, but when I heard one Ebola patient for the first time in the United States diagnosed here in Dallas, Texas, I had this almost Hollywood- like image in my mind the CDC would swoop in with as much force and drama as possible to ensure that absolute containment was done, and yet there's no one in this woman's apartment even helping her through the basics.

MORSE: And I agree. I think that it really needed to be corrected. And I've been surprised by many of the responses, both here and in Africa.

And a while ago, I thought that there was so much information being given out, all the training that's been going on, surely if an imported case of Ebola came here -- and there will be others -- they would be put into isolation or at least get the right treatment.

And we saw what happened is really an object lesson in a lot of the things that we're not prepared to do and that we really are doing wrong.

BANFIELD: I also just can't imagine working in a hospital in this day and age and hearing somebody come in through check-in, saying he's from Liberia and he's terribly sick right now, and not have bells and whistles and alarms going off. It's astounding to me.

Doctors, I have to let you go. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you as well for your reporting today.

You just heard this notion of being compelled to stay under quarantine. This is a legal order. This woman has no choice.

So what about those who may be next? If there are others who start showing any symptoms or they can establish they have actually come into close contact, what is the law?

Can you be compelled by the government to stay home when you've done nothing wrong? We're going to outline all of that after the break.

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BANFIELD: Now to the intersection of public health and the law because as we've been reporting, four people who spent time with Thomas Eric Duncan after Mr. Duncan came down with Ebola symptoms, but before he was actually admitted to a Dallas hospital, those people are being ordered, under the penalty of law, to stay in their home. And joining me to talk about that, and how the government can compel you to stay in your home when you've done nothing wrong, CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos here in New York and Jeffrey Toobin in Washington, D.C.

So, Jeff, how can they do it?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It's the law. Every state has a law like this just for obvious reasons that the public health demands in certain very narrow, limited circumstances, that when a communicable disease can infect large numbers of people, these people can be forced to stay home. It makes sense. It's the law everywhere and it's now being enforced in Dallas.

BANFIELD: But what's the bar? I mean, you know, there are plenty of people who have come into contact. Why aren't they all under quarantine? Why aren't police officers stationed outside of their doors?

TOOBIN: Well, obviously, there is a certain amount of prosecutorial discretion and it relies on the good faith of the public health officials not to quarantine people unnecessarily. But, you know, all laws require a certain amount of discretion on the part of enforcement officials and, in this circumstance, I don't think anyone can debate that it's being used appropriately. And if the time comes when there is some controversy, then the courts might have to sort it out. But certainly, at this point, this seems like an pretty uncontroversial invocation of this law.

BANFIELD: I'm just going to break into this for a moment. We do have some news coming from the Centers for Disease Control. We've been reporting with Anderson's exclusive interview with Louise how nervous she is and how unaware she is of what to do with not only the sheets that are still on the bed where Thomas Eric Duncan slept and sweated with a fever, where she was also sleeping, the towels that she was told to just bag up that apparently she said were still in the apartment.

Sanjay Gupta, you've got some information that's coming from the CDC? What is it?

GUPTA: Well, it looks like they were probably listening. The CDC now saying that they are sending medical contractors over to Louise's apartment, to where she's staying, to pick up this medical waste and to, quote, "also address some of the other issues." I think some of the other issues being that she's a little bit a loss in seems in terms of just what she should be doing, making sure she's getting enough food, things like that. So, you know, looks like there's been some failure to communicate here and it's a theme that we've heard a few times now, Ashleigh, but at least with this most imminent issue, the fact that these potentially contaminated sheets and towels are still sitting in this apartment, the CDC says medical contractors are literally on their way over there to try and address that. Take -- my guess is they're just going to remove all that stuff. That's typically what happens in hospitals. And they put it in biocontainment bags and then it would be incinerated. You got to think about the place where this - where Mr. Duncan has been over those four days where he was sick, but before he went to a hospital, he was sort of in a hospital type setting. So it's got to be treated that way. And I think that's what they're going to do.

BANFIELD: But, Sanjay, I mean, I don't understand. Look, I'm a lay person here, but even I know what I'm seeing, they're doing in Africa, they are burning everything where a patient spent any time, clothing, mattresses, sheets, towels, blankets.

GUPTA: Right.

BANFIELD: How on earth was all of this left behind? I pictured the CDC had gone through that apartment with bleach before they said, now you have to stay here. But that didn't happen?

GUPTA: Yes. No, you know, it's a -- I'm at a loss too, Ashleigh. I'm not exactly sure why something like that would have been missed. I mean, you know, just the humanity of it. Just being able to take care of her and she's obviously going through this traumatic situation. You know, her boyfriend or her husband, I'm not sure what the relationship is, but he's obviously very sick in the hospital and she can't even sleep in that room because fearful that there's still the Ebola virus on surfaces there. It just sounds like an awful situation.

We didn't hear more from the CDC in terms of explaining why this has happened, why this wasn't addressed. All we've heard so far is that it's going to be addressed. I mean it's a very fair question and I think it's going to be a very important question going forward because I think as many of your guests have said, you know, we're talking about Mr. Duncan. But, you know, over time, there are going to be other patients in the United States that are in this same situation.

BANFIELD: Right.

GUPTA: We - the guidelines are still very loose and they're still called interim guidelines. So the idea that this is the first patient in the country to have ever been diagnosed that way, we're seeing a lot of learning pains here. We would have thought, you know, for months they've been prepping for this sort of thing right here behind me, but, you know, there's just been a few now missteps, things that maybe just got overlooked. Hopefully no one has been harmed as a result of that, but these are really, really troubling.

BANFIELD: To say the very least. This woman, Louise, apparently has, I believe, five children and there is only one child that is in quarantine with her and two nephews. So where the other children are at this -- the humanity of it, like you said. I assumed that this woman was being cared for so, you know, so minutely, you know, to the last detail.

GUPTA: Yes.

BANFIELD: I'm astounded that she didn't even know what to do with the sheets.

GUPTA: Yes.

BANFIELD: Sanjay, if you'd stand by for a moment.

GUPTA: Sure.

BANFIELD: The half-brother of Thomas Eric Duncan gave sort of a quasi- news conference in which he updated some of the information with regard to his half-brother's transit from Liberia to the United States. So have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Did your brother know that he had Ebola when he traveled to the United States? That seems to be a question that possibly he came here for treatment?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): I don't think so. I don't think so. No one knew that he had Ebola. Because when he went to the hospital for the first time after getting a fever and the hospital sent him back home, he called me, he was OK, they gave him medication. He didn't really (ph) have Ebola (INAUDIBLE) hospital (INAUDIBLE) moment for the first time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So I want to bring in Danny Cevallos, who is not only our CNN legal analyst, but also, you know, an adjunct professor of health science administrations at Drexel University.

So you're the perfect person to answer this. There are so many balls that have been dropped it looks like with this pathway that Mr. Duncan took from Liberia. Did anyone ask him if he had been in contact with a sick person? He apparently carried a pregnant woman suffering from Ebola in and out of a hospital when she was rejected. And yet he got on a plane, he got on another plane, he got on a third plane, he went to a hospital, and he went to a hospital for the second time. It just sounds to me like there was so much injury and so much damage that has been done as a result of so many, but are there any remedies anywhere for anyone?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Our law does not guarantee that the government will always protect us, especially against natural disasters or events like this, outbreaks. However, what the government does provide, and our laws provide, typically, is that it's very difficult to sue the government or to hold them liable for just ordinary negligence. It's called immunity. And especially in the cases of these outbreaks, Texas law specifically provides for significant immunity for people who are involved in the process.

But if they do so in a way that is highly negligent or there's something even intentionally bad, then they may be exposed to liability. But be warned, for the most part, if you are some entity giving aid, if you are providing services, under Texas law and under pretty much law everywhere, it's going to be very difficult to hold those entities liable for something they did. BANFIELD: What about the hospital that turned him away? Louise claims

that in the admitting process she mentioned twice, she even went so far as to say she was asked for Mr. Duncan's Social Security Number and clearly, since he is from Liberia, he does not have one. She told them he's from Liberia. And then she said she said it a second time. Is the hospital going to be liable, number one, for the damages that this has caused throughout the Dallas/Ft. Worth area and maybe beyond, or, number two, God forbid he dies or anyone else dies, wrongful death?

CEVALLOS: Yes, now we're talking Tort law. And the general rule there is, if you can come up with a theory of liability, you can expect to see it following this incident because there are a lot of potential plaintiffs. But they should be warned, they probably have a high bar, a high burden to meet, and that burden is the protection that Texas law provides to responders and health care providers that unless they do something really, really highly negligent or even intentional, they are generally entitled to immunity.

BANFIELD: All right, Danny, thank you for that.

You know, the word of this Ebola case is certainly got parents in the Dallas area very worried that their children might have been exposed at one of the four schools that these children who had been in contact with him went to since this infected man did have that contact. The janitors at area schools are wearing hazmat suits as they clean up. And just ahead, a school nurse is going to talk with us about what the parents need to look out for with their children in that area.

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BANFIELD: It is likely that Thomas Eric Duncan had direct contact with dozens, again dozens of people. And among those, five Dallas school kids from four different schools who went to school every day until Duncan was actually officially diagnosed with Ebola. And as you know, kids are no strangers to passing germs forward. Understandably, parents in this area are very nervous about this. Look at this video. Janitors in hazmat suits cleaning one of the schools of concern in this story.

And joining me now live is Carolyn Duff, the president of the National Association of School Nurses, who herself is a practicing school nurse in Columbia, South Carolina.

Thank you so much for being with me.

First and foremost, I want to get your reaction to this story and how this actually has propelled you to take any kinds of action that nurses around the country in schools need to be aware of?

CAROLYN DUFF, PRESIDENT, NATL. ASSN. OF SCHOOL NURSES: Well, first of all, I want to say that the role and the goal of school nursing is to keep students safe, healthy and ready to learn. And school nurses are alert to signs of infectious disease and assess students and contact surveillance for these infections every day. This is a role of school nurses to prevent the spread of flu or any other contagious disease. We follow the CDC guidelines. We collaborate with local health departments who --

BANFIELD: Ms. Duff, you must be very nervous about the news you've heard out of Dallas. I know that this is your role, but when you hear what you've heard, that these kids were going to school for approximately four days, that must have set off a lot of bells in your community?

DUFF: Well, it just put school nurses a little bit more on high alert. We will be looking for symptoms of -- early symptoms of the illness as we would for any other illness. We are always collaborating with health departments and reporting significant trends in illness. We recognize that early detection is very important and a quick response is necessary.

I can give you an example. Some years ago, I had a student in one - in my school who was diagnosed with whooping cough. I noticed immediately that his cough was unusual, sent him home from school and to a pediatrician who made the diagnosis.

BANFIELD: Yes. Well, Ms. Duff, I appreciate -

DUFF: So that's when I -

BANFIELD: I just have to cut it off there. I'm sorry. I'm out of time. I've got to get to the next program. But I appreciate your time and your input in this program. Carolyn Duff, thank you.

I also want to remind you that Anderson Cooper had that exclusive interview with the woman named Louise who is the partner of the patient at the center of this Ebola crisis. She's under quarantine. And she spoke exclusively with Anderson. His program will be on live at 8:00 tonight eastern.

And my colleague, Wolf, starts right now.