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CNN NEWSROOM

Battle for Kobani Against ISIS; Is ISIS Having to Recalibrate Its Strategy; Answering Viewer Questions About Ebola; How Much Land Has ISIS Taken?

Aired October 1, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: For several days we've been watching the battle for a city in northern Syria, Kobani. Today, an ominous change as CNN filmed from a safe distance away. Let me show you the pictures. Smoke, as we look at the map, began to rise from inside Kobani, a sign the ISIS fighters are now close enough to strike the city.

CNN's Phil Black was right there at the battle front.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: For much of the day, smoke has hung over the city of Kobani, behind me as, we have heard and witnessed a constant shelling, bombardment on the eastern outskirts of the city and the villages from the south leading up to it as well. The ISIS advance is still very close, indeed.

To the West, we saw ISIS fighters at close quarters trying to break through the lines of Kurdish fighters that are resisting them. On that front, ISIS is using light weapons. It is not the main thrust of the ISIS advance. That's what we've been witnessing here in recent days.

But we've also been hearing aircraft overhead for much of the day. And the United States said that air strikes were conducted at ISIS targets within this region. An armored vehicle and artillery piece as well. Each of these heavy weapon to get knocked out, it evens the playing field just a little. And there's no doubt it's slowed that ISIS advance. But ISIS still has greater numbers. It still has the ability to be resupplied, unlike the Kurdish fighters trying to hold them off. The ISIS advance has been slowed but not stopped.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And Phil Black joins me now from the border area. He's moved just down the road from the piece.

Phil, we have new tape shot by ISIS. Let's just all watch together.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SHOUTING) (GUNFIRE)

(SHOUTING)

(GUNFIRE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Phil, I don't know if your eyes have seen this video and if you can walk us through what we're seeing, and give us an update on the battle for this town of Kobani.

BLACK: Yes, I have seen that video, Brooke. The video I believe you're showing shows ISIS fighters in southeastern Kobani using heavy machine gun of some kind, gets fleeing Kurdish fighters and using it with devastating affect. It's not nice video to watch. It shows what these fighters are really up against here. It shows how they are out gunned and it shows the determination of ISIS fighters in their advance, towards the city that you heard me discussing earlier. And it really shows what a battle -- what a hard-pitched battle and really just how the odds and the circumstances are very much against those few remaining Kurdish fighters trying to prevent ISIS from overrunning their city there -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: Why is this sort of such this prize for ISIS? You have been reporting that it's emptied out. Why do they want this town that's virtually -- all of the people have left.

BLACK: ISIS is in the business of claiming territory and holding onto it and trying to build a big Islamic State. That's the goal. In this case, it's claiming new territory all of the way to the Turkish border. This gives it a clear run of land from the Turkish border to the city of Raqqa. The border is crucial to us because, through this border, it's been resupplied in various ways. It's a key smuggling point for contraband back and forth.

So for these reasons it's strategic, it's important. And of course, for people that are defending it, it's their homeland. It's their communities and their villages and towns, and not just the city but dozen of villages across the surrounding region as well. Most of those people have left. Hundreds of thousands of them have moved into Turkey in what can be described as an undignified way, dropping everything they own to trek across the desert to try to find safety. But there is that determined few still behind really fighting to the very end to try and stop ISIS from taking over their homes and communities.

BALDWIN: Phil Black, thank you so much once again for us.

Stunning images we're able to share on CNN of really taking it to the front lines of this fight.

With me in New York, a man at the center of the hunt for global terrorist, Ali Soufan. He's former FBI, among other things. He's interrogated some of the worst of the worst and high-valued targets and he knows these terrorists as well as anyone can. First, thank you for coming back this week.

ALI SOUFAN, FORMER FBI AGENT: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

BALDWIN: Do you think, just given all of these different U.S. and coalition air strikes -- and not only what's happening in Kobani, but we've been reporting that we're getting reports two Iraqi border towns previously seized by ISIS are, and now being recaptured, do you think ISIS is having to recalibrate their strategy in the wake of everything that's been happening?

SOUFAN: Absolutely. The air strikes are working. Because ISIS is trying --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: They are working?

SOUFAN: Absolutely. ISIS's strategy is to control land.

BALDWIN: The land grab.

SOUFAN: Land grab. In order to grab land, you need to have resources. You need not only grab land, but hold land.

BALDWIN: Right.

SOUFAN: And you need resources and you need to have local support, and it all depends on the coalition actions. I'm not talking about only air strikes but also about the coalition actions on the ground. The coalition actions in building grassroots Sunni opposition or grassroots public opposition against ISIS. So far, ISIS has been holding and grabbing land in areas that actually people really don't like ISIS. They don't like ideology of ISIS, but mostly they are Sunnis and they have been oppressed --

(CROSSTALK)

SOUFAN: -- and there's no other alternative than ISIS.

BALDWIN: Absolutely.

SOUFAN: Now what we need to do is, after the air strikes, we need to deprive ISIS from their resources. For example, in Iraq, ISIS controlled 1.1 million tons of wheat. Most of the silos in five provinces that ISIS controlled in Iraq are government silos full of wheat. They are using bread. They are using wheat as a weapon. They are using oil as a weapon. They are using fear as a weapon. They are using finances as a weapon. For example, if you have your money in Iraqi bank under the ISIS control, you can only take 10 percent of the value of your money. So they are trying to control the people.

And what we need to do is what General Allen was saying, before, on another show -- and he's a great person to handle this -- is how can we take it into building a grassroots coalition to stand against ISIS. BALDWIN: If U.S. and coalition air strikes are successful in the

sense they stopped the land grab, so you want to stop the land grab and stop them grabbing more, you want to push them back.

(CROSSTALK)

SOUFAN: And diminish their resources.

BALDWIN: Diminish them. I talked to Rear Admiral John Kirby, from the Pentagon, and he said, Brooke, that's why we're going after these mobile oil refineries. But bigger picture is, you mention wheat and other resources, the resources of ISIS, are they losing swagger, for lack of a better word? I don't think winning would be the right word yet.

SOUFAN: It's too early to talk about victory. But I think we start seeing a shape of a plan, a plan that is going to deprive ISIS from some of their major resources on the ground, physical resources, tanks, armed command-and-control and armored divisions and so forth. Also at the same time, we start to see that people are standing up for (sic) ISIS. For example, the people of Kobani. Kobani is a Kurdish village very close. They didn't give up. They didn't run away. The Peshmerga, the Iraqi forces are taking back lands. I think the air strike is working so far but we cannot depend only on air strikes.

And I think the State Department did a great job creating the regional coalition --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: But that won't ultimately destroy them.

SOUFAN: Exactly. We need to take that regional coalition from doing only air strikes and put them on the ground to create, especially, the Muslim partners of the coalition, to create regional grassroots to create domestic grassroots to stand up against ISIS.

BALDWIN: So many groups, so many bad guys. Quickly, let me end with another group, Khorasan -- the U.S. is calling Khorasan. There's a lot of speculation, no confirmation, the head of this group may have been killed in the first wave of air strikes. If he is dead, how much of a hit is that on that group?

SOUFAN: That's significant. Because all of the team are sent from headquarters to Syria. And he's one of the leaders of that group sent to assist to set up al Qaeda operations in Syria. A Kuwaiti guy involved in a lot of operations of al Qaeda from early on. He was in jail in Kuwait for a few years. He went back and joined the leadership in Khorasan. He was based for some period of time in Iran. He is one of the individuals that can be considered an old timer in al Qaeda. And getting rid of him is a good hit.

BALDWIN: Ali Soufan, thank you so much.

SOUFAN: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Come back. We'll take you any time we can get you.

SOUFAN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Appreciate it.

Coming up next, we're learning new details about the person infected with Ebola here in America. The questions are pouring in. How are airports screening people? How long do symptoms take to kick in? Dr. Sanjay Gupta will join me live to answer your questions. Keep them coming, #EbolaQandA.

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BALDWIN: It is a virus that has killed more than 3,000 people in West Africa and now, as you've been watching, Ebola has hit America. One man who had flown from Liberia to the United States is now sitting in a Dallas hospital being treated. His infection obviously has people worried that Ebola can spread. And if you have been looking on Facebook and Twitter, you have also seen the rumors and theories about the disease spreading. Let's cut the fact and fiction here.

CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, here at the CDC in Atlanta to just walk us through.

Let's not be alarmists. We shouldn't be, Sanjay. A lot of people have tweeted us with questions, and so we have just a couple questions I want to get to.

The first question, this man asks, is got here on an airplane full of people. Who knows -- talking about this patient -- who knows how many people may have been exposed. That's the question.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, a couple important points here. A couple important facts. One is that when he got on the plane, he wasn't sick. When he got off of the plane, he wasn't sick. Very important, because one thing that we keep hearing over and over again that's an important point is you don't spread this virus until you are sick yourself.

So the fact that he is known as incubation period, carrying the virus in his body but not spreading it. The people on the plane say there's no cause for concern. In fact, they haven't released any of the information about the flight. When we asked them to give us some of the information about the flight, they say there's no cause for concern. Those people are not considered contacts, not people that we'll follow and trace.

BALDWIN: OK. Then another question similar to the travel issue is, what are airports doing to screen people coming to the United States internationally?

GUPTA: Well, I can tell you, when I was in West Africa, when I left Guinea, West Africa, there was a screening protocol in place there. That's where screening is most important. You prevent people from getting on a plane who have any kind of signs of illness. That's what you are trying to do. They took my temperature and asked me a bunch of questions about what I had been doing and if there was any chance I had been in contact with Ebola patients. I had no symptoms. That's what happens over there.

If someone were to land in the United States and have developed symptoms, they got on the plane totally healthy and got off and now sick, then that would prompt a medical evaluation once they got here to the United States.

So the real key to this is trying to detect or screen before people get on planes from countries where Ebola is known to be, such as these three countries in West Africa.

BALDWIN: I'm sure you were watching the news conference at the hospital in Dallas. One of the doctors saying the likelihood of this spreading is small. Again, the question from someone else is, why should the public trust? Why should they trust these doctors that Ebola won't spread? What's your answer to that?

GUPTA: You know, look, it's spreading in West Africa. I think about these things from a more global sense. When we say it's not spreading, it is spreading in West Africa. This is the worst outbreak in Ebola history in West Africa. The question that they are really asking is, will it spread in the United States? I think what we're hearing and confirming is that the infrastructure for public health is just so much better here. You can isolate people. You can provide the treatments in terms of fluids or giving them blood products. We know two patients came here for treatment that are doing well and they were able to be contained. It didn't lead to more infections.

I will say, in this particular situation here, you know the story of this man in Dallas, there was an error made here. The patient went to the hospital on the 26th of September and was sent home, despite the fact he said he was in Liberia and he had fevers. Those are red flags not followed up upon, and that was a mistake. As a result, he may have had contact with many more people. As a general rule, I think the idea of this turning into an outbreak in the United States is really, really small.

BALDWIN: As you pointed out, too, as far as the hospital, the patient and a nurse did communicate about him coming in from West Africa but something was lost in translation and didn't make it to the doctors. As you said, that was a problem.

Dr. Gupta, thank you so much for answers some viewers' questions.

GUPTA: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Keep them coming, #EbolaQandA.

Coming up next, ISIS. Isis is already in control of several major cities in Syria and Iraq. Exactly how much land has this group taken over since January, and which areas might they target next? We'll show you. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: Islamic militants threatening to take new territory in another country as they close in on this key border town straddling Syria and Turkey. Turkey has deployed soldiers and tanks to defend their border near Kobani. CNN crews capturing the fighting between ISIS and the Kurds, this is happening over the last week.

Let me bring in Gideon Rose, editor of "Foreign Affairs" and author of "How Wars End."

Good to see you, sir.

GIDEON ROSE, EDITOR, FOREIGN AFFAIRS & AUTHOR: You, too.

BALDWIN: As we walk through this together here, my first question to you is about Turkey. We now have reporting and we know troops and we know tanks are perched along the border. No ground movement as of yet. What do you think it will take for them to engage?

ROSE: The Turks tried to stay out of this. But they don't want to lose any territory and they don't want to see the situation explode even further. They also don't want the United States to get angry at Turkey for staying out.

BALDWIN: Right.

ROSE: So the more this embroils Turkey, the more they are forced to engage a little bit. But they won't be a dramatically powerful and aggressive member of the coalition. They'll be a reluctant one, protecting what's theirs and trying to not piss everybody off.

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: Thank you for being blunt.

So, ultimately, though you do see them getting --

(CROSSTALK)

ROSE: Eventually, they will get somewhat more involved. They don't want to see even further chaos.

BALDWIN: OK. Moving along, the administration having acknowledged the land grab and the territorial grab and holding to the territory really surprised them since the beginning of January. So ISIS, Ramadi, Fallujah, Raqqa. To be clear, they have not taken Baghdad. But giving you a sense of geography, we watch where the capital is. Flash forward, major change. You see red and yellow. This is July. They captured more territory working southward to the prized spot of the capital. A smidge change by September. You put it perfectly, talking about the Petri-dish analogy. Explain.

ROSE: What's happened here is not just about ISIS, but about the environment in which ISIS is operating. Syria has been in civil war and chaos for several years, allowing there to be uncontrolled areas in which ISIS could get a hold up here. That's what started it. Iraq had three sections, but a government in Baghdad under the Shia, who didn't care about the other communities, the Kurds and the Sunnis, and annoyed them. There was a formal government authority in Iraq, but really the Sunnis were getting increasingly disinfected. What happened this year was that ISIS moves into this area. They are Sunni radical jihadists. And the Sunnis basically go, gee, we like you more than we like the government of Iraq, and so they side with the rebels coming into them. And the Iraqi forces are, at this point, hallowed out and they run away, and the government basically finds itself not in control. That's a large part of their expansion. They have now reached the largest limits of their --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: That's my final question. When do they hit the wall? You know that Sunnis do not exist everywhere, right?

ROSE: Exactly. You have Shia down here and the government's controlling Baghdad. You have Kurds up here. You have Turks up here. You have the Syrian government over here. At this point, I think that ISIS really has reached a natural limit of its logical expansion.

BALDWIN: OK.

ROSE: We got surprised by its rapid speed of its advance because we didn't realize just how hallowed out Iraq had become. And we didn't realize that ISIS wanted to control that much territory.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: A lot of hopes pinned on this new government as well.

ROSE: At this point, I think people are getting too hyper in the other direction. It's not like they have a natural easy way to expand elsewhere. At this point, they have been contained. They've started to be pushed back a little bit as well by the Kurds and by our air strikes and so forth. Maybe you can get a coalition together to keep pushing them and constraining them.

I think the worst is over. And the question -- or at least the worst part of their advance is over. At this point, it's how do you dislodge them from where they are, and not worrying about what comes next?

BALDWIN: Gideon Rose, thank you so much.

ROSE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Hopefully, the worst of that advancement is over. I'm holding you to your word.

And quick break. We're back after this.

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