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CNN NEWSROOM

Rubber Bullets, Tear Gas Fly in Protests; Beheading Suspect Facing Murder Charges; Obama Admits ISIS Was "Underestimated"; CNN/ORC Poll: U.S. Not "At War" with ISIS; Interview with Rep. Marsha Blackburn

Aired September 29, 2014 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I think they underestimated what had been taking place in Syria.

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RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now the CNN NEWSROOM, President Obama admitting he underestimated the ISIS threat, but he says America is the indispensable nation in this fight. So what's the plan now? Plus --

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The result is going to be an assassination. I'm afraid the only way we're going to have a change.

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KAYE: Protecting the president. Is the Secret Service up to the task? A blistering new report picks apart how the agency handled a shooting at the White House.

Protests, tear gas, pepper spray, we're live on the streets of Hong Kong as tens of thousands of people fight for democracy. Let's talk live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Good morning to you. I'm Randi Kaye in for Carol Costello this morning. Thanks for joining me. We begin in Hong Kong where more than 40 people have been injured including 12 police officers. Protesters are clogging city streets demanding Beijing reverse course on new election rules limiting the number of candidates running for the city's chief executive post.

This video from the South China "Morning Post" shows protesters trying to escape suffocating clouds of tear gas. Just look at that. Police say they have used, quote, "suitable force," which has included pepper spray and rubber bullets. Some protesters have covered themselves in plastic wrap and goggles to protect themselves from that tear gas. Meanwhile, the prime time newscast on CCTV, China's state run news station, avoided all mention of these protests and the only time Hong Kong came up is when discussing joint celebrations for Independence Day, which is Wednesday. Hard to imagine.

Ivan Watson is live in Hong Kong for us. Ivan is there in that square surrounded by all those people. Ivan, what's happening around you right now?

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Randi, there's been a boisterous rally for the last couple of hours that seems to have calmed down a little bit where the hordes of demonstrators were singing "anthems" and chanting "resign" to the local government in Hong Kong, but fortunately this day, Monday, and the night here, has been peaceful.

We have not seen signs of clashes or the tear gas that the security forces were using in the pre-dawn hours and last night against demonstrators. If anything, there's a real volunteer grass-roots youth driven effort.

I'm standing next to piles of donated things. Everything from bottles of water, it's sweltering hot out here, to surgical masks and fever strips to the crowds of people. Food. People just walk up and hand you food here in the streets here.

It's important to give you a sense of place. I'm standing in the middle of what's supposed to be an eight-lane highway, the most important road transport line, artery, through the heart of this commercial financial hub and it has been occupied now for more than 24 hours.

But what is largely a youth driven movement. These are teenagers. They are people in their early 20s who are repeating one demand over and over again, for more democracy for free and fair elections in 2017 and they're standing up not only to their own authorities here in Hong Kong but to the much more powerful entity of the Chinese central government.

The ruling communist party which on Mainland China uses much more draconian methods and much more violence to shut down immediately public shows of dissent, methods that have not been used here in this former British colony -- Randi.

KAYE: Ivan, I'm curious. I mean, given what's happening there, are they getting any traction? Has there been any response from Beijing on the protesters' demands?

WATSON: You know, the central government has declared, as the Hong Kong government has, that this -- these actions are illegal. That these are the works of a group of radicals. What I've seen is a remarkably well-behaved, enormous group of young people.

Nobody's even smoking cigarettes or drinking beer in the crowd. And there's a roar now coming through the crowd but, again, in Mainland China, this simply wouldn't be tolerated and there is much more censorship, much more authoritarian system of government in Mainland China.

And that is what these young people are worried will be imposed on them as they say that they have seen some of their freedoms chipped away at over the course of the past year by the Hong Kong officials and by the central government.

So this is really a large group of young people standing up to a very powerful government that has shown very little reluctance to use force in the past to crush people who challenge it -- Randi.

KAYE: Ivan, how long were they able to stay there? You were hit with tear gas, we've seen some of that video from earlier, how long before police try to disperse this crowd again?

WATSON: Well, we saw a much bigger police presence Sunday night and in the early morning hours, much more willing to use force against these demonstrators and then they pulled back throughout the day so there is a token police presence here.

Police officers who are not armed, who are not wearing riot control -- riot protective gears, but for the most part those security forces have pulled back. When the police used more heavy handed methods, when they used pepper spray on demonstrators on Friday.

When they detained dozens and arrested dozens of protest leaders it seemed to only add more fuel to this fire of civil disobedience here and brought more people out. When people were hit with tear gas, as we were last night here on these very streets.

It only made people angry and after they initially dispersed they came back in larger numbers. Those methods basically backfired. Those non-lethal crowd control methods.

And in the wake of that, the Hong Kong authorities have released some of the demonstrators and the student leaders that they had detained in a clear sign of cooperation. That also hasn't reduced the anger and the show of defiance that you see around me.

KAYE: Ivan Watson, an amazing scene there and to think that's supposed to be a highway, eight lanes as you said is just remarkable. Thank you so much for your reporting from Hong Kong there.

And back here at home, an Oklahoma man is expected to be charged with murder today after going on a knife attack that ended with the beheading of his co-worker. The man, Alton Nolen, has been in trouble with police dating back several years.

Including a 2010 traffic stop that included an altercation with an Oklahoma state trooper. Now that trooper says that she wishes that she had taken steps to prevent him from harming anyone else.

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LT. BETSY RANDOLPH, ENCOUNTERED BEHEADING SUSPECT IN 2010: I wish I'd have killed him, you know? I -- I never -- I was never afraid of him or I would have. My thoughts and prayers are with those victims and their families. I just can't help, but think I just wish things were different, that's all.

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KAYE: Nolen's mother speaking out saying the man accused is not the son she knows and loves.

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JOYCE NOLEN, MOTHER OF BEHEADING SUSPECT: I know what they're saying that he done but I'm going to tell you this, that's not my son. There's two sides to every story and we're only hearing one. His family, our hearts bleed right now because what they're saying Alton has done, I want to apologize to both families because this is not Alton.

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KAYE: Joining me now, CNN justice correspondent, Pamela Brown is in Washington and CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Danny Cevallos is in Philadelphia.

Pam, let me start with you. The feds say they do not see a link between this case and terrorism. Where do things stand in the investigation at this point?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. We know they have interviewed Alton Nolen and at this point they're saying that it doesn't appear that his action this past Friday when he allegedly beheaded one of his co-workers was not motivated by a terrorist ideology.

I'm being told by officials that at this point it doesn't appear that he was motivated by any terrorist groups including ISIS. We do expect him to be charged today with murder and attempted murder.

But we are being told that there were some alarming facts that investigators have uncovered as part of this investigation that is concerning. We have learned that Nolen converted to Islam in prison and he was trying to convert his co-workers to become Muslim.

And we're also being told that there was a Koran and two prayer rugs found in his car and there were also some alarming Facebook postings showing his extremist views. But beyond that, I'm being told, Randi, that this was more of a workplace violence issue, a crime of passion.

He was fired just before that. It was for a combination of factors, I'm being told. It's due to his work performance as well as his disruptive behavior trying to convert his co-workers to Islam. But at this point, again, I'm being told there is no connection to terrorism -- Randi.

KAYE: Danny, Nolen is expected as we've said to be charged with first degree murder and assault with a deadly weapon. He also has a pretty extensive rap sheet. Is there a chance that because of that these charges could be upgraded? DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, they can't be upgraded any more than first degree murder. That's the most of the most. However, when that will come into play is if he is convicted, the potential penalties in Oklahoma for first degree murder are death, life without parole, or life with the possibility of parole.

Then the court will look at, as they do in many jurisdictions, aggravating factors. One of the main aggravating factors is your prior record. Specifically in Oklahoma, if you've been convicted of a crime of violence, which it appears this defendant will have been convicted of a prior crime of violence.

Of course, there's other aggravating factors like causing a substantial risk of harm to other people, which clearly sounds like the case here. So what that will effect, if he is convicted of first degree murder, is the aggravation or the penalty phase and that will be, believe me, a substantial aggravating factor leaning towards the death penalty.

KAYE: And, Pam, Oklahoma City Police now are probing -- which is hard to believe given what we're already hearing in this case -- a second separate beheading threat. What do you know about that one?

BROWN: Yes, we just received the affidavit from my colleague, Deborah Feyerick and according to this -- a man in Oklahoma City earlier this month threatened one of his colleagues telling her he was going to cut her head off, telling her that he was part of ISIS and saying to her that ISIS kills people.

And at that point, he was on the authority's radar, they were investigating him, but the charges were elevated after this incident in Moore, Oklahoma, Friday to a terrorist charge. Before that it was a misdemeanor so, of course, this is really concerning in light of what happened in Moore, of course.

Investigators are going to figure out if there's a connection between these two men, whether they attended the same mosque, anything connecting them. I'm being told at this point there's no connection, but it's certainly bizarre.

That we have two incidents, one alleged beheading the other a threat of beheading in the workplace in the same vicinity. It's very curious. This is something investigators will want to look at.

KAYE: Danny, let me ask you about that. The second individual was arrested on this terrorism threat and his colleagues said that the man told her he actually represented ISIS in this case, which is different from the other case of Nolen. Is that enough to show a link to terrorism? How will the officials make their case on this one?

CEVALLOS: It's a really interesting issue because the federal government is not -- we need to understand, the federal government's nexus, they have control or jurisdiction over acts of terrorism, but they have the discretion to choose whether or not to prosecute.

So they have to analyze whether or not his intent is sufficiently tied to terrorism to give the federal government that connection so they can exercise their jurisdiction and if they can, do they actually want to?

The reality is the federal government arguably has jurisdiction over all kinds of threats that involve any act of terrorism. The real question is do they have the resources or the inclination to prosecute all of them?

So they'll look at whether, in fact, he has any connection to ISIS or if just the mere threat alone is enough that the federal government will choose to exercise its substantial jurisdiction over acts of terrorism.

But because this is likely a local crime as well, the federal government might do what it does in many instances, which is leave a threat like this to the local law that prosecutes it and decline to extend jurisdiction.

KAYE: All right, Danny Cevallos, Pamela Brown, thank you both.

Still to come, President Obama makes a strong statement on ISIS saying his team underestimated the growing terror group. We'll talk to Congresswoman Marsha Blackburn about all of that coming up next.

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KAYE: As President Obama and his international coalition strike ISIS strongholds inside Iraq and Syria, even the commander-in-chief now admits the terror group was more powerful than they first believed.

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OBAMA: Well, I think our head of the intelligence community, Jim Clapper, has acknowledged that I think they underestimated what had been taking place in Syria.

STEVE KROFT, CBS NEWS: He didn't say that -- just say that we underestimated ISIL. He said "we overestimated the ability and the will of our allies, the Iraqi army, to fight."

OBAMA: That's true. That's absolutely true.

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KAYE: That was the president last night on "60 Minutes," placing the blame for ISIS' unexpected growth right on the shoulders of his director of national intelligence, James Clapper. You'll remember it was Clapper who told the "Washington Post" earlier this month earlier this "We underestimated ISIL and overestimated the fighting capability of the Iraqi army.

I didn't see the collapse of the Iraq security force in the north coming. I didn't see it."

To talk more about this, I'm joined by Tennessee Congresswoman Marsha Blackburn. Good morning to you, Congresswoman. So the president admits to underestimating ISIS. You heard it on "60 Minutes." They have a plan in place, which you supported what more do you want them to do?

REP. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R), TENNESSEE: Well, first of all, I think it's important that we acknowledge that the president says they learned a lesson, they underestimated and my hope is that if it took him six years to get to this point that he is going to be aggressive going forward.

Now, we also know that General Austin had briefed him that they need to have that residual force in Iraq and we're seeing now that they're going to leave a residual force in Afghanistan. All of that is good.

As we move forward, I think what we have to recognize is what we are hearing is people are saying this is not going to be a few weeks or a couple of days of airstrikes, this is going to take some time to deal with ISIS, ISIL, and Khorasan and all the al Qaeda splinter groups.

So my hope is -- and I agree with Senator Barasso and Speaker Boehner, Congress should go back to D.C. We should have a debate on this. We should be given those classified briefings because the American people want to make certain we take the steps to protect the homeland.

That they are free to go about their daily lives living their lives here in a country that is safe and secure and there is nothing more important right now than the security agenda and making certain that we do everything to protect this nation.

KAYE: Well, Congress seems to be very concerned right now, though, about getting the word out in the midterm election. So you're saying you're willing to go back?

BLACKBURN: Absolutely, I'm willing to go back. There is nothing more important than providing for the common defense and making certain that we are making wise decisions on that. We -- as I said, you look at what happened in Iraq and the president did not listen to the command team.

And I have to tell you, Randi, the American people aren't interested in blaming this one or blaming that one. What they want is the job done. We know that this is a threat, we know it's a growing threat, we know there are issues in Syria, we know there are issues in Iraq.

We are looking at the prospect of the southern border, the impact there, terrorist linked individuals coming across that southern border or the northern border. People want to make certain that they are safe and secure and able to live their lives and that we are going to protect those freedoms here.

KAYE: So the president certainly wants the job done, too, as he says. He says to win this fight, though, Iraqis have to hold up their end of the deal. So listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA: With the allies, with their ground troops and if we do our job right and the Iraqis fight then over time our role can slow down and taper off. The Iraqis have to be willing to fight.

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KAYE: Now, Americans say they don't want a ground war and, in fact, a new CNN/ORC poll shows six out of ten oppose ground troops in the fight against ISIS. So do you think in terms of how this conflict can be won, can it be won without American boots on the ground?

BLACKBURN: We need all options on the table at this point in time. And the president needs to talk a little bit more about who all is going to be in the broad coalition. It's coming to us in bits and pieces and we welcome every country, every country that comes in.

KAYE: Are you opposed to boots on the ground or would you welcome it?

BLACKBURN: We need to leave all options on the table and there again it's inappropriate to say I'm for this or against this or we're going to do this or not do this and we don't need to have everybody in Congress and the senate trying to be a commander in chief.

We have one commander-in-chief, we have one Joint Chiefs of Staff, we need to be listening to those that are there and then taking the advice of the commanders in the field. As I said, go back to when we came out of Iraq and General Austin had recommended 24,000 troops be left in Iraq.

Having that presence around the globe, that makes sense to the American people. Because they have family members that are deployed all around the globe helping keep the peace. We are the ones that take the lead in keeping the peace. And we know much of that peace comes through strength.

So right now what you need is open minds, listening to the wisdom of those that are a part of the command team and then thoughtful, wise decisions being made with the end goal in mind, annihilate ISIS, keep the homeland safe. Get rid of this al Qaeda and this terrorist threat. Now, what the recipe is going to be I don't know.

KAYE: I understand you're keeping all your options open. We heard that loud and clear. Congresswoman Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee, thank you.

ISIS fighters are on the move in Syria setting their sights on a city that would allow them to establish a key supply route. Officials in Kobani fear that if their city falls, a massacre could occur. Residents are out of water, have no electricity and food supplies are running low.

There have been U.S. air strikes in the area, but witnesses say those strikes have been limited and not at all well targeted. Kurdish fighters near the Turkish border have been calling for more effective air strikes to help them stop the advance of ISIS. Joining me now, Retired Brigadier General Mark Kimmet. General, the U.S. and its allies have conducted at least 275 airstrikes against ISIS, 75 of those in Syria. Certainly sounds like a lot of firepower. Why are they not as effective in Syria?

BRIGADIER GENERAL MARK KIMMITT (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Well, I think the main reason is because there hasn't been any follow-up from either the rebel forces or any other ground forces and I think Congresswoman Blackburn in your previous segment talked about that quite a bit, quite articulately.

KAYE: Well, we know President Obama has said no U.S. boots on the ground in the fight against ISIS, but what about special ops forces. Would that help to designate the sites in Syria? Is that a possibility?

KIMMITT: Well, first of all, I think we need to acknowledge that we do have boots on the ground. We have almost 1,500 to 2,000 troops in Baghdad in a combat environment. Perhaps not in a direct combat, but certainly a combat environment and at risk of being seriously wounded, maimed, or killed.

As regards additional forces to come in, if we're going to enable the Iraqi forces and the Syrian rebels, we can't just lead from behind. It's important that we enable where we can and in a specific situation that you're discussing.

This notion of providing joint tactical air controllers, that could be a significant assistance to number one, make sure that the airstrikes to go where we want them and, number two, that they're done with a level of precision that would mitigate the chance for collateral damage, which will turn everyone against us.

KAYE: Would you say ISIS has some sort of advantage in Syria versus Iraq?

KIMMITT: Well, they certainly do. They find sanctuary, they find safe haven. It is an ungoverned space where they can operate freely without any worry about being attacked by anything more than a fairly non-robust Syrian air force.

That's why they chose Syria. That's why they're operating out of the Syria. That's why the Khorasan Group moved into Syria because they can operate generally with impunity.

KAYE: Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, thank you very much for your time. I'll be right back.

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