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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

War Against ISIS; Where Is North Korea's Leader?; Woman Beheaded in Oklahoma

Aired September 26, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Raw video on live television of ISIS taking fire at the local crowd goes wild.

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The world lead, until now, we have really only seen ISIS terrorists doing battle in a dressed-up, black-flag-watermarked propaganda video, the way they wanted us to see them. But, today, CNN was there as Kurdish fighters took on ISIS fighters in a battle for the border.

The national lead. Just days after a warning to be on the lookout for lone wolf attacks, a sickening case of workplace violence in the nation's heartland, as a recent convert to Islam allegedly beheaded a co-worker. Is this at all related?

Also in world news, he either just got the only copy of the "Breaking Bad" box set in this country and is binge-watching like something fierce, or something is really wrong. Where in the world is the Dear Leader of North Korea?

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Jake Tapper. Welcome to THE LEAD.

We are going to begin with the world lead, and some breaking news just into the lead that the U.S. government now believes that some of the leaders from the al Qaeda cell in Syria bent on attacking U.S. airliners, the group known as Khorasan, those leaders may have survived airstrikes earlier this week and may still be plotting.

Meantime, and as has been the case all week, we are on the lookout for new airstrikes that could happen at any moment over Iraq and/or Syria. In the past 24 hours, U.S. Central Command says American fighters jets and drones launched 10 new airstrikes against the terrorist group ISIS and some of the targets may have looked familiar to the pilots.

Why? Well, they were hitting American hardware that was stolen by ISIS during its rampage across Iraq, your tax dollars blowing up your tax dollars. And today we witnessed something remarkable.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What you are seeing is tracer fire moving in to that ridgeline that is currently occupied by ISIS forces.

And around me, the Kurdish crowd is cheering.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That was CNN correspondent Phil Black as a battle between Kurdish fighters and ISIS played out right in front of him on live television on the Syria/Turkey border.

Our camera and refugees were watching from a distance. And the refugees were cheering and singing every time ISIS was pushed back or a terrorist was picked off, as if it was a soccer game instead of a clash of civilizations.

Our chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto, is live at the Pentagon. He has all the latest on the battle, in the air, and on the ground -- Jim.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, I will tell you today that Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel was very direct.

He said, in his words, no one is under any illusion that airstrikes alone will defeat ISIS. The same came goes for the group Al Khorasan. Defense officials here saying it's too early to tell how many leaders, if any were killed in those airstrikes on Monday night.

It's perhaps with that in mind that General Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that he's not taking any options off the table when it comes to making this fight successful, including the possibility of some U.S. ground troops.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLACK: ISIS has been making progress.

SCIUTTO (voice-over): ISIS fighters locked in battle with Kurds in Northern Syria, a brazen show of force live on CNN.

After 10 days of administration denials, today, Joint Chiefs Chairman General Martin Dempsey stood by his commitment to recommend U.S. ground troops if he believes necessary to win the fight against ISIS.

(on camera): I wonder if you stand by that, that if you believe it's necessary, you will go to the president and say, Mr. Obama, I need ground troops in certain roles to succeed here?

GEN. MARTIN DEMPSEY, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF CHAIRMAN: I just stand by the statement. I will make a recommendation.

The president gave me a mission. Destroy ISIL. And I will recommend to him what it takes to destroy ISIL.

SCIUTTO (voice-over): And this is what the war against ISIS looks like on the ground. CNN's Phil Black on the front lines, as cameras capture Syrian Kurds exchanging fire with ISIS fighters on the Turkish border. BLACK: What you are watching is live video of ISIS fighters in Syria

attempting to battle their way through this northern, mostly Kurdish region.

SCIUTTO: It is one more front in an expanding and confusing war. Here, it is Syrian Kurds running for their lives from ISIS, but so far, no coalition military action to save them.

(on camera): They appear to be facing the same genocidal threat that saw the Yazidi people and others in Iraq. The U.S. came to their aid. Why hasn't the U.S. come to the aid of the Syrian Kurds from the air?

CHUCK HAGEL, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: We are discussing how and what we can do with our coalition partners to help them deal with it.

SCIUTTO (voice-over): One coalition partner that could do that is Turkey, which borders Syria. However, on the ground, the administration continues to insist the only option for a substantial ground force are local fighters, Iraqis and Kurds in Iraq, moderate rebels in Syria.

DEMPSEY: The only truly effective force that will actually be able to reject ISIL from within its own population is a force comprised of Iraqis and Kurds and moderate Syrian opposition.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: General Dempsey, in fact, mentioned a very specific mission, that he might ask for U.S. ground troops if he believes it's necessary. And that is deploying the military advisers. There are hundreds of them in Iraq right now in joint operation centers in Irbil and Baghdad.

But the possibility of deploying them to the front lines to more forward positions, of course, the administration will debate whether that is actually a combat troop. But those would certainly be troops in combat.

So, Jake, here you have the president's generals at least leaving that option very much on the table.

TAPPER: And, Jim, let's talk briefly about this report from CNN's Evan Perez that U.S. officials now saying that they are not confident at all that leaders of -- that other al Qaeda offshoot in Syria, Al Khorasan, that they didn't escape and may still be plotting.

We have heard intimations of this, things about this hinted from senior U.S. officials, but this sounds as though they think it was necessarily not as successful a raid as they would have liked.

SCIUTTO: At least it didn't do everything in one night. And we're hearing the same from defense officials here. They say it's too early to tell.

But I will say that I don't think anybody in this building certainly expected to wipe out the group entirely on that first night of attacks. Remember, there have been drone strikes in Yemen against al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula for years, for more than a decade in Pakistan along the border with Afghanistan against al Qaeda, and still those groups able to plot.

That said, with this plot being imminent, as described, as U.S. officials -- that's certainly a sobering thought, to know that with those all those Tomahawk missiles in particular launched at the Khorasan group on Monday night, that that active plotting might still be under way.

TAPPER: Jim Sciutto at the Pentagon, thanks so much.

Joining us now is former NATO Supreme Allied Commander General George Joulwan.

General, good to see you again. Thanks so much for coming in.

So, it's very rare that we get footage such as this. And I know it's just one relatively brief clip from one firefight. Is there anything you can tell from this? Does this show you that Syrian Kurds are up to the task? What conclusion can you draw?

GEN. GEORGE JOULWAN (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Well, it shows how forward- deployed ISIS is right now.

TAPPER: That they're at the border.

JOULWAN: Right at the border.

It also demonstrates the role of Turkey or the lack of a role of Turkey. What struck me here is that we have an air base six miles from where this -- that clip took place in Incirlik, a U.S. air base, a NATO base not being used.

TAPPER: That's incredible. And for people who aren't familiar, Turkey has an impressive military. I think it's the second largest in the area that's in NATO. Why isn't Turkey there and alternatively why aren't American soldiers there trying to fight these ISIS fighters, these terrorists, on the border?

JOULWAN: I hate to be flippant here. But at one point in the Iraq war, we had journalists embedded with the military.

Maybe we should embed the military with the journalists here that could then have observed fire. That's what you really need here, Jake. You should have observed fire. You don't know what's behind the hill. Is this a forward element, a lead element of a larger force that's coming forward? All of that needs to be in this equation before you attack them with air.

TAPPER: And that lack of intel, direct intel on the ground, that's the reason, I suppose, that the U.S., for instance, could not call in an airstrike right there.

JOULWAN: Yes, exactly. And that's part of the challenge we're facing. Turkey is a key ally

here in NATO. They're a key ally of the United States. They're a strategic ally just for what's happening now.

TAPPER: But why are they -- so where are they? I mean, what -- why...

JOULWAN: Well, remember, in -- 10 or 12 years ago, in the start of the war in Iraq, they refused to allow the 4th Mechanized Division to come in from the north.

It's a political reason in Turkey. I think there are ways to handle that. It's going to take diplomatic ways to do it. But I think the Turks are key here. The Kurds, by the way, are excellent fighters. The Peshmerga are excellent fighters.

But what you need to marry up with their strikes is some sort of ground maneuver to be able to give you the BDA, bomb damage assessment, when you put airstrikes in on Khorasan or any other group. We haven't been able to do that.

TAPPER: I want to ask you about the British who voted today to participate in airstrikes against ISIS in Iraq. What can the British bring to the table?

JOULWAN: They have very good aircraft.

They have very -- for airstrikes. They're very good in that region. They have been in and out of the Middle East for many, many years. They bring an understanding of it. But I think the idea of the British and it looks like the Danes and others are going to join from NATO, will put a coalition together that I think is not only militarily accurate, but also politically.

But I might add that what you need here -- and I found this when we went into Bosnia -- was precision strike, not just aircraft. You need to make sure that, when you fire something, it hits the right target, so you reduce collateral damage. And that's what the coalition is putting together.

TAPPER: General Joulwan, always good to have you on the show. Thank you for your expertise.

Coming up next, a roundup across the globe. Dozens of alleged terrorists with suspected ties to ISIS arrested just in the last 24 hours. But how many more are still out there plotting against the U.S. and others in the West?

Plus, new reports that another U.S. enemy has resorted to beheading its victims after a Taliban attack leaves 100 dead or wounded. Is this form of violence the new normal for extremist groups?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. More on our world lead now: the coalition against ISIS includes many traditional western powers, along with the U.S., France has launched air attacks. The Netherlands as agreed to contribute planes. The British parliament voted today to take part in strikes in Iraq. But there's plenty of activity on the home front as well.

Today, law enforcement officers in several western countries detained a number of people with suspected ties to ISIS in what felt a bit like an international dragnet.

CNN justice correspondent Pamela Brown is following this worldwide crackdown -- Pamela.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, intelligence officials in countries around the globe are working in tandem to crack down on terrorism. Since August, there have been terrorism-related arrests in at least eight countries including the U.S. And overnight, a string of arrests in London, Morocco and Spain.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Overnight, chaos in the streets of Spain. And just this morning in London, two terrorism-related arrests just after British authorities arrested nine men, including radical cleric Anjem Choudary who recently spoke to CNN about the beheading of James Foley.

ANJEM CHOUDARY, MUSLIM IMAM: Quite frankly, I think it's completely pathetic and absurd for you to ask a Muslim to condemn the killing of one individual.

BROWN: On Tuesday, Australian police shot and killed an 18-year-old ISIS terrorism suspect what allegedly stabbed two police officers, just days after large-scale raids where authorities arrested 15 men suspected of planning of staging large-scale attacks on Australian civilians. Here in the U.S., authorities arrested this Rochester, New York, man for allegedly wanting to kill U.S. military members.

It's just the latest in a worldwide effort to crack down on terrorism.

CHAD SWEET, CO-FOUNDER, CHERTOFF GROUP: Imagine us hitting a beehive with a large stick. They're angry. They're trying to come at us. They are one plane ticket away.

BROWN: As air strikes in Syria continue, officials say countries are stepping up intelligence sharing to identify potential suspects elsewhere around the globe.

SWEET: We're seeing an uptick in radicalization. But we've also seen our ability to intercept and disrupt these plots as a function of our improved "A" game abroad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And just this week, it was announced that Interpol is going to adapt its color notification system to better identify foreign fighters and in foreign partner countries in order to improve tracking.

But, Jake, it's safe to say that this is going to continue. We're going to be seeing more arrests like this.

TAPPER: All right. Pamela Brown, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Joining us to discuss ISIS and its terror attacks are: Nada Bakos, a former CIA analyst who helped track down Osama bin Laden. And Richard Barrett, former head of the al Qaeda Taliban monitoring team at the U.N.

Thanks to both of you for being here.

Nada, let's start with you. Do you think we're seeing a jump in terrorism carried out by Western recruits or is it that just we in the American media are paying closer attention?

NADA BAKOS, FORMER CIA ANALYST: We are seeing a jump with this current organization, ISIS, because I don't think we've ever seen this many Western passport holders working for and fighting with a terrorist organization overseas. That said, all these arrests means the system is actually working because we know there were a fair amount of Western passport holders over there, in Syria and Iraq.

TAPPER: Richard, in Afghanistan's Ghazni province, Taliban insurgents beheaded 15 people yesterday. I know that's not completely new for the Taliban to do such extreme things. But I wonder if the fact that they did this, do you think, is an example of ISIS tactics spreading to other groups?

RICHARD BARRETT, SR. VICE PRESIDENT, THE SOUFAN GROUP: Well, Taliban is a different group, as you point out. But beheading is a very effective tactic both for scaring your enemy, who are less likely to stay and fight when you attack the next time you fight and showing the ruthlessness and determination of your own fighters. I know the Taliban have denied that beheading story. But if it is true, it well may be, then I think that these are probably their motivation really, to make the Afghan national forces really concerned about what they might do to them if they got caught.

TAPPER: But, Richard, do you think they got it at all from these headlines and TV images and from around the world about what ISIS has done and how much it's scared the West with its beheadings?

BARRETT: Well, yes. But, I mean , you remember, beheading -- beheadings go back a long way.

TAPPER: Sure.

BARRETT: I'm sure you remember the death of Daniel Pearl, for example. And there are many horrific murders like that, by beheading. And the two executions in Syria of Steven Sotloff and Jim Foley, I think really caught the world's attention to such an extent that other terrorists like those thought, okay, this is a pretty good tactic for getting our message out there.

TAPPER: Right. Daniel Pearl, and also Nick Berg from Iraq in 2004.

Nada, I want to ask you, the State Department has launched this campaign "Think Again, Turn Away". It's aimed at dissuading young Muslim men from becoming terrorists, from pursuing jihad with ISIS. They got some heat because they posted on Twitter the other day some pictures of dead ISIS fighters. They took it down, though.

What do you think about this approach, what do you think about this attempt to counter the propaganda?

BAKOS: Well, the U.S. government's been looking at doing something like this since 2001. I do think it's more effective when it comes from the Arab countries and specifically the gulf region, because some of this issue stems from the teachings -- the extremist teachings from individuals that the United States isn't really going to have a voice against.

So, I think this would be much more effective coming from the Gulf countries. But at the same time, I think it's worth trying to do something, especially when we are looking at inciting lone wolf attacks here in the United States. At least it will give a counter voice to that argument.

TAPPER: And, Richard, just following on that, I wonder how effective you think it is. I mean, this is called -- this Web site, this Twitter account actually has Department of State, DOS, in it. If -- how many would-be jihadists care what the U.S. Department of State thinks?

BARRETT: Well, that's right. I mean, it's good to have all voices out there. But if you're talking about people who are already extremely radicalized, they're not really open to arguments from the State Department, and they are rarely talking among themselves and operating within their own little bubble.

But I think you can get into that bubble, and particularly if you find people who have been fighting with ISIS or been fighting with those terrorist groups and they come out and say, look, I was there and I saw how horrific it is and these guys aren't true Muslims at all, they're killing Muslims more than anybody else, those spokespeople have a credibility the State Department wouldn't in this case.

TAPPER: All right. Nada Bakos and Richard Barrett, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it.

Coming up, a shocking local crime story or something of larger significance? A woman in Oklahoma beheaded allegedly by a co-worker. Police now asking the FBI to look into it after witnesses said the suspect was recently trying to convert others to Muslim. New details on that case coming up.

Plus, he's not been seen in weeks. Now a clue from North Korean state television that Kim Jong-un could have a mystery illness.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

The national lead now: a woman is beheaded in a senseless attack -- no, not in the battlefields of Syria or Iraq, but here in the United States, allegedly by her own co-worker. The brutal assault took place at a processing plant in Moore, Oklahoma. Witnesses say the suspect had just been fired from his job at Vaughan Foods. They also reveal something about his past that has the attention of the FBI.

Joining me now live is CNN correspondent Martin Savidge.

Martin, is there any reason to believe this guy has any possible ties to terrorist groups or even took inspiration from groups like ISIS?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Jake. When this happened initially, it was reported as a kind of localized horrific crime. But now 24 hours later, authorities say that there are some warning indicators here, no concrete proof. But enough to get the feds involved. Here's what we found.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CALLER: It sounds like he's running around out here.

DISPATCHER: OK.

(GUNSHOT)

CALLER: And that -- that's a gunshot.

SAVIDGE: Horror in Oklahoma. Police say a knife-wielding man stormed the offices of Vaughan Foods in Moore, killing the first person he saw, a 54-year-old Colleen Hufford, cutting off her head.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He encountered the first victim and began assaulting her with a knife. He did kill Colleen and did sever her head.

SAVIDGE: According to police, the suspect then began attacking a second woman when he was shot and stopped by an armed company executive who's also a reserve sheriff's deputy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It could have gotten a lot worse. This guy definitely was not going to stop. He didn't stop until he was shot.

SAVIDGE: Initially, the attack was described as a workplace dispute. Thirty-year-old Alton Nolen, seen here in a mugshot from a previous arrest, had just been fired by the company that day. But the police investigation has turned up some red flags, causing some to wonder if there may be more to the attack. Authorities believe Nolen converted to Islam and tried to convince others at work to join him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After conducting interviews with co-workers of Nolen, information was obtained that he recently started trying to convert some of his co-workers to the Muslim religion.

SAVIDGE: Recent calls by the Islamic State asking sympathizers to strike back inside nations now part of the coalition out to destroy the terrorist organization have law enforcement agencies across the country on alert, looking for so-called lone wolf threats.