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Congress Leaves Capitol Hill After Voting to Authorize White House Strategy to Combat ISIS; Jordan's Possible Role in Combating ISIS Examined; Interview with House Intelligence Chair Rep. Mike Rogers

Aired September 19, 2014 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's going to be a huge change. The queen herself is going to come out and make a statement about this. You know that she had told people to think very careful before they cast their vote, Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: They are now going to be facing a huge amount of pressure to bring about those changes and bring about those changes quickly, as you just mentioned, especially after when you see turn-out like that and how close the vote was. Christiane, thank you so much. Chris?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: More breaking news this morning, driving the situation that you'll care about -- France joining the fight against ISIS in a big way, launching air strikes of their own against the terror group in Iraq. This comes a day after the Senate in the U.S. approved President Obama's plan to train and arm Syrian rebels. The vote was decisive, 78 to 22, despite bitter doubts about the mission on both sides of the aisle. The president insists this vote shows America is united.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm pleased that Congress, a majority of Democrats and a majority of Republicans in both the House and the Senate, have now voted to support a key element of our strategy, our plan to train and equip the opposition in Syria so they can help push back these terrorists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: The problem is it is not that clear for many members of Congress. However, as is too often the case, they voted and left, took a six-week break to campaign for midterms, leaving behind this crisis with all their reservations and all the big questions they say they have about it and the doubts, not doubtful enough to debate it and vote once and for all on what is certainly a war. Chief Congressional Correspondent Dana Bash asked them, or at least tried to. No one runs down the halls of Congress faster than Dana Bash, usually in heels, nonetheless, on the march.

DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Always in heels, Chris. Look where I am now. It is the Capitol. It is an empty and lonely place here this morning now that they've all gotten out of Dodge. Lawmakers have left to try to keep their jobs rather than staying here to do their jobs.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Congress racing for the exits. Cars line the parking lot waiting to whisk lawmakers away home to campaign for six weeks through Election Day.

Congressman --

BASH: Leaving a lot on the table, especially debate over a new authorization of military force against ISIS.

REP. CHAKA FATTAH, (D) PENNSYLVANIA: It is our agreement in the country that this ISIS group is a threat.

BASH: So then why not stay and debate it and not go home if your constituents believe there is a real threat?

FATTAH: I don't disagree. I'm prepared to vote yes on the use of military force. I'm not ducking any vote.

BASH: Any rank-and-file members are frustrated about bolting.

I get the importance of campaigning, but really, while all of this is going on in the country?

REP. JARED POLIS, (D) COLORADO: As if there's not enough to do. And it's not just the war issues. It's immigration reform, it's ENDA, it's a number of different bills.

BASH: There's a lot of blame tossed around. Republicans blame the Democratic-controlled Senate.

Why don't the Republicans who run the House stay, don't go home, don't go home to campaign, and work on that authorization? They have the ability to do it?

SEN. TED CRUZ, (R) TEXAS: Well, Dana, the problem is, that we have a do-nothing Senate.

BASH: Republicans also blame the president.

Why not stay here and debate an authorization for use of force, which is Congress's job?

REP. RICHARD HUDSON, (R) NORTH CAROLINA: Absolutely. I wish the president would ask for one.

BASH: And Democrats who run the Senate point to the House.

SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL, (D) MISSOURI: This tradition I think began of the House representative runs every two years. And for many, many years, the House has adjourned for the month of October.

BASH: Senator Susan Collins is up for reelection but in a safe seat and wanted to stay.

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS, (R) MAINE: My job is to be in the capitol working for the people of Maine and the American people. And that's where I think we all belong right now.

BASH: Lindsey Graham is also on the ballot and blunt about why they're leaving.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: They seem to be more worried about who runs the place than how the place runs.

BASH: Senator before you get in your car, can I ask you a quick question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure.

BASH: Freshmen senators are appalled.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need to be here, we need to debate this issue.

BASH: But at this point, there's no reason to stay.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Now Chris, there is actually pretty broad bipartisan agreement that Congress needs to act. They need to have a new vote to authorize force against ISIS. But again, that's now not going to happen for at least two months until after the election, probably more. Chris?

CUOMO: First of all, Dana, I love you. You, that is the job, that is the job, right? Even the baby is a fan. That is the job. You did the job. They're all saying they're happy to answer your question. They're not happy to answer the question. They don't want to come anywhere near it. And that's what makes it so horrible. They all say -- this is such a big deal, it's a war, and then they're going to leave and they're going to campaign and avoid this. But not on your watch, Dana. The only thing else you needed was a mirror, you should have held up a mirror to them and on the bottom said "they," because they all say they, they, the administration. It should have said "they" so they can see themselves, that they are the "they."

BOLDUAN: The sad thing is Dana doesn't get off when they take off as well.

CUOMO: Dana is the best. Even the cameraman can't keep up with you.

BASH: Please. Everyone can.

(LAUGHTER)

CUOMO: Thank you for the report, Dana, thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thanks, Dana.

CUOMO: That's a very important question, because the major concern is, who is going to fight this fight against ISIS? The U.S. keeps saying it won't be us with boots on the ground.

All right, one country that very much could help is Jordan. They had to be part of the Levant, that word your keep hearing. They're a direct target for ISIS. They helped a lot with intelligence in the past. They say they'll help again. But they also have a very mighty army. So is the country in any position to help by fighting?

We spoke with Marwan Muasher, who is a CNN Mideast analyst and a former Jordanian foreign minister. We asked him directly about this issue and he gave us direct answers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: There's one basic question, which is, will Jordan join the fight on the ground and commit ground troops to this effort? What do you think?

MARWAN MUASHER, CNN MIDEAST ANALYST: I don't think Jordan would commit ground troops. It is not in a military situation to do that. Having said that, Jordan I think is going to do a lot of things to aid this effort in combatting ISIS, both in providing intelligence services that it did before. If you remember with Zarqawi, when the United States was fighting Zarqawi in Iraq, in the networks of contacts that it has with the Sunni tribes and convincing them to stop their support for ISIS when they support it, in logistical support for troops and others. In these areas I think Jordan will continue to and prove to be quite effective.

CUOMO: Help us understand, help Americans understand, because here's the situation from this perspective. This is your fight. ISIS or ISIL is looking to control the Levant, they're looking to win over what the heart of Islam is about. Jordan is in the Levant, the United States is not. Why is this the United States' fight? Why isn't this your fight with us helping you? Why is it being construed as the United States taking the lead with you helping them?

MUASHER: Well, look, the United States took the decision to confront ISIS militarily, not anybody else. So that should be clear. Two, ISIS is fighting a war in Syria and Iraq, not in Jordan. And it would be very difficult for Jordan to commit ground troops for another country.

But I agree in the end it is the region's fight, not so much militarily, as much as it is a fight for the political and economic conditions that led to the emergence of ISIS. This should be the wake-up call for the region that from now on policies of exclusion, failed political and economic policies cannot remain and not expect people like ISIS to emerge. Whether the region is going to do this or not remains the big question.

CUOMO: I understand the point and it is well taken and hopefully the audience gets it as well, that the cultural battle and the political and economic battles are probably more difficult and more important to the future in the region than simple military exercises.

But it still leaves us with this proposition. The United States people don't want more fighting in the region. They don't want to commit troops. The understanding is that it is Jordan and the Arab countries and Turkey who are saying, please come help us stop ISIS. Please fight against them. If you don't think that there should be a physical fight, a military fight, then why is one happening?

MUASHER: Chris, one is happening -- first of all the United States has made it clear that it, too, is not going to commit ground troops. So this is not a decision by the region. It is a decision by the U.S. administration to fight ISIS. It is a decision that I think in my view is a good decision, ISIS needs to be fought. But it's not in response to countries of the region asking the United States. This is a decision that the United States both administration and Congress took in fighting ISIS.

CUOMO: As you understand, Mr. Muasher, it's a confusing situation, because if it's so desperate, and there's such a need for ground fighting and you have mighty armies like the Saudis and the Jordanians and the Turks, frankly, and none of them want to get involved on the ground and you leave it to much lesser forces, it's very confusing for people to understand the future.

But thank you for laying out the other concerns about the politics and political change that's necessary and the cultural change that's necessary. There's certainly many dimensions to this. Thank you for the perspective on NEW DAY. Appreciate it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BOLDUAN: Pretty blunt. Pretty candid right there.

CUOMO: And pretty confusing. A former foreign minister says you're the guys who want to fight. We don't want to fight. We want to do other things, the political and economic. But no troops from us. So --

BOLDUAN: Political and economic are an important element of it, but you've got to fight back ISIS before can you lay the groundwork for that.

CUOMO: Well, that's what the U.S. administration thinks. But still, this coalition, and who's going to be doing the fighting when we know it's important on the ground, still a very open question.

A lot of news this morning, and you know what that means. Right to Michaela for the headlines.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: That's me. I'll take it. Thanks so much, guy, good morning to you. New details this morning on the size and scope of that credit card breach at Home Depot. The company has confirmed a stunning 56 million credit cards were exposed during the five-month-long security breach, easily the biggest we know about. Home Depot says the malware that allowed the breach has been eliminated. The CEO has apologized for the quote, "inconvenience and anxiety to customers."

Police are turning to the public for the help for the search for Hannah Graham, the missing University of Virginia sophomore. Police released a description of the man a witness says approached Graham at a pedestrian mall. He is described as almost six feet tall with a close-shaved head and goatee. In the meantime another man has come forward, saying he is the one that is seen following Graham in the last known video of her. He says he was going to offer help, but stopped when another man put his arm around her.

Some serious punishment for this group of Iranians in trouble for the viral video. Remember, six performers appeared in a fan video for Pharrell Williams hit song "Happy." They were found guilty of violated Iran's ban on dancing in public. They were each given a suspended sentence of six months in jail and 91 lashes. The punishment could still be carried out if a similar offence is committed in the next six months.

BOLDUAN: There you go. How far things still need to go.

PEREIRA: Absolutely.

CUOMO: France is making news this morning. Why? They are now launching air strikes against ISIS. The U.S. giving the president authority to arm Syrian rebels. So is Congress really behind the plan? Is France being involved, help, or are they just acting under pressure and then running away. We're going to speak with the chairman of the House intelligence committee Mike Rogers coming up.

BOLDUAN: And New Jersey Governor Chris Christie has had enough of the George Washington Bridge scandal. Will he really be able to put it behind him now as talk ramps up of a possible presidential run? We're going to have a look "INSIDE POLITICS".

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: Welcome back to NEW DAY. The president's plan to degrade and eventually destroy ISIS is moving forward this morning. The Senate approved a measure to train and arm Syrian rebels to fight back against the terror organization. The House signed off on the measure earlier this week. But there are still serious doubts about the president's strategy really coming from both sides of the aisle. At the same time, all the members of Congress, they've all now left for -- until the election in order to campaign for reelection.

For more, let's discuss with Congressman Mike Rogers, a Republican from Michigan and of course the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. Mr. Chairman, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming in.

REP. MIKE ROGERS (R-MI), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Thanks, Kate. Great to see you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much. I do want to ask you -- we've got a lot to get to about the threat against ISIS and the vote. But Dana was just on, just moments ago, and we were just talking about the simple fact -- and I know I've seen it every time when I was covering Capitol Hill -- November is a long way away. But still members of Congress, they voted and they ran for the exits, all of them saying, as they're leaving, "I want to have a debate. Why aren't we -- I'd be open to a vote. But no one's going to do it. So we're all going to leave town."

You're now retiring, kind of relieved of that pressure, if you will. Why is Congress leaving if the threat from ISIS is so great?

ROGERS: Well two things. I think we're going to see a vote when we get back. Certainly those -- I'm pushing for that vote after the election. I think a lot of folks are pushing for that vote.

So this was the first phase. This is a phased campaign, if you will. If it was only training and equipping these rebels that we find and vet and train from Syria to go after ISIL, this plan is not going to work. It has to be bigger than that.

And so I think you're going to see a phased approach. You're going to see increased kinetic action in Iraq. And you're going to see, I think, hopefully some degrading of their capabilities in Syria, as well as the training component. Because this is going to be five months.

So this got it going. I don't -- you know, I would have liked to have had a vote before we left. Don't think we absolutely had to have one. It sent a very clear message to both our adversaries and our allies that we're serious; we're going to help fix this problem in the Middle East.

BOLDUAN: Many folks are still wondering, though, what is going to get done in the lame duck, that period of time between the election and the next session. Because the White House, at least so far, they're not asking for authorization, if you will. They keep saying we welcome a debate and we welcome a vote, but that's not calling for one.

And also some of your Democratic colleagues who voted against the Syria vote, including Peter Welch, he said this -- he believes that everyone has been duped, that -- duped to think that they are actually going to get a war debate in the lame duck. He says this is an illusion. This was the vote.

ROGERS: Well, I mean, I hope that's not the case. I think we -- I think Congress needs to act on this. I do think that we should give the president the authority to track down ISIL, whatever its name, whatever its new name is, wherever it is, because of the sheer threat of it.

And I think that, A, says -- gives comfort to the American people, but it also gives pause to our enemy. And I think bucks up our allies.

I think this is an important thing to do, and I think legally it's an important thing to do. And I hope Congress doesn't abdicate its responsibility to weigh in on this very, very important issue. If we believe it's a threat to the United States, I do. If we believe it's a threat to Western Europe, our allies -- you saw what happened in Australia with the plot to decapitate. This is as serious as it gets. We need to be serious about it. We need to have that debate. We need to give the president the authority. He may not use it all, but we should give him the authority to do what he needs to do to beat this group. I think it's so important that we do that.

BOLDUAN: Mr. Chairman, if you were a betting man, what do you think the chances are that that debate and that vote is actually going to happen in the lame duck? There is surely, definitely many ways to figure a way out of having that vote.

ROGERS: Yes, there's a reason I'm not a betting man, Kate, aAnd that's because I would lose my back side, as my dad used to say.

I worry -- you know, I think it's probably 50/50 at this point. And I think we're going to have -- a lot of members are pushing for it. I think we're going to have to continue to push for it after the election and see where it goes.

I think the longer the president -- the president gets in his way on these policies sometimes. You know, the day when we're getting ready to vote on the plan, he goes out and lays out the things he wouldn't do. I think that -- we all -- I think that hurts the president's chance of people thinking it's going to be successful. That's why I think you'll see a better -- a little better than 50 percent chance that you'll get a vote on this in the lame duck.

BOLDUAN: I think the lingering important question following these votes is this -- it's official, the White House has the go-ahead and the green light to arm and train the Syrian rebels to take on ISIS. But there are real doubts amongst Republicans and Democrats on Capitol Hill and beyond about the moderate opposition -- how much we know about them, how well the administration can vet them, and how much they can be trusted.

You know more from your position as a chairman of the House Intelligence Committee than many, than most everyone. What is your level of confidence in the Syrian rebels?

ROGERS: First of all, this notion of moderate rebels, we should probably tamp that back a little bit. There's -- many of the folks are still Islamists. They're opposition, they're maybe pro-Western or at least not anti-Western. I wouldn't use the term moderate necessarily.

But think about the cauldron that's in Syria today. You have al Sham, you have al Nusra, which is an al Qaeda affiliate, Hezbollah, which is the Iranian version of a state-sponsored terrorist organizations running around in Syria. It is a mess. So one day these rebels will get up and fight the Assad regime. The next day, they're getting up, they're literally fighting ISIL fighters and al Nusra fighters in different battles.

So from that group of that individual -- those group of individuals and, you know, we have some sense now, better than we did six months ago, about which individuals we think would have a very good chance of being trained to be in a status better than the enemy and allow them to go in and fight against ISIL. I think that this can work, but it can't work by itself. It has to be in a conjunction with other parts of the plan.

BOLDUAN: I'm also getting new reporting I want to get your take on coming from our justice correspondent, Pamela Brown, about the other groups, about the al Qaeda cell in Syria, Khorasan. I may not even be saying it correct and that shows just how little we know about this group.

What do you know about this group and the threat that they are very seriously still looking at aviation as a way to target the West?

ROGERS: Well, we've talked about before the forward-deployed al Qaeda elements. This certainly would fit that criteria. So what we knew and we still know is that al Nusra is that al Qaeda affiliate, and we know that they are very, very interested in conducting an -- what they would call an external attack. So outside of their operating region in Syria, meaning the West.

We know that there's been relationships between al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, where that technology, if you will, is being developed to try to get bombs on aircrafts. And these folks -- certain al Qaeda operatives, sprinkled around ,if you will.

And so I think the threat is very, very serious; it's the most immediate threat that we face.

BOLDUAN: Even more than ISIS.

ROGERS: -- when we look at -- more immediate. It doesn't mean less, it just means more immediate. I believe that it's a more immediate threat. So this one is something they absolutely want to do.

And, remember, they are very eager to get, in their terms, points on the board, if you will, on a terrorist attack to show the world they're still the leading jihadist organization. And that's what's so concerning about it.

And then you see these relationships that happen, you know, it's something that we need to worry about. And oh, by the way, we need to worry about ISIL as well.

BOLDUAN: Mr. Chairman, just an example of how big your job is. And I know that you're retiring, but how big your job still is until that day comes. Congressman Mike Rogers, it was great to see you. Thank you.

ROGERS: Thanks. Until that second hand sweeps across the 12, I think I'll be worried about it.

BOLDUAN: I think so. I think you're right, and probably beyond. Thank you, sir.

A court decision in Kansas could be a game-changer in a big Senate race and decide which party takes control of the chamber. John King is going to explain, "INSIDE POLITICS".

And the allegations against Cardinals running back Jonathan Dwyer now coming to light. Police say that he broke his wife's nose with a headbutt. How can the NFL get control of the domestic violence issue? We're going to ask the women, the woman whose story inspired the film "The Blind Side", to get her take.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Good to have you back with us here on NEW DAY. 20 minutes past the hour. Here are your headlines.

History unfolding across the pond, Scotland will not go it alone. It will remain part of the United Kingdom after rejecting independence in dramatic vote, a referendum there. British Prime Minister David Cameron said he's delighted by the results. He calls this an opportunity to change the way people in the U.K. are governed and change it for the better.

The White House pledging $53 million in humanitarian and security assistance to help Ukraine in the fight against pro-Russian separatists. The announcement coming during President Petro Poroshenko's visit to Washington. He met with President Obama, he addressed a joint meeting of Congress. Now, Poroshenko did not get everything he wanted. The White House stopped short of offering military aid.

Tension and controversy in Savannah, Georgia, after police shot and killed a handcuffed suspect. 29-year-old Charles Smith was arrested for outstanding warrants when police say he kicked out the back window of their cruiser and tried to escape. As he tried to get out of patrol car, officers claimed they noticed the suspect was armed and he was shot and killed at the scene. The Georgia Bureau of Investigation is now going to investigate.

BOLDUAN: Thanks, Michaela.

PEREIRA: You're welcome.

CUOMO: Have to keep on that one with you with the autopsy

PEREIRA: Absolutely.

CUOMO: Then they'll understand the pattern of what happened. And then the hunt for justice will come right after.

Mick, thank you very much. A lot going on in the world. You now that. The politics playing a heavy hand as always. So we go "INSIDE POLITICS" on NEW DAY with Mr. John King. Happy Friday, my brother.

JOHN KING, CNN HOST, "INSIDE POLITICS": Chris, Kate, Michaela, TGIF to the three of you. It'sa busy day "INSIDE POLITICS", some 2014, some 2016 implications. Let's start with Chris Christie.