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DR. DREW

New Details About Joan Rivers` Death; 3 Dead Infants Found in Squalor Home; Adrian Peterson Charged With Child Abuse; Anonymous Confessions from University Students

Aired September 16, 2014 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Good evening. My co-host is Samantha Schacher.

And we have breaking news tonight. It`s about Joan Rivers.

CNN is reporting that the cardiac arrest -- what happened to poor Joan is she had respiratory arrest, no oxygen and subsequently a cardiac arrest.

What`s being reported now is that her personal physician began performing a biopsy on her vocal cords. They`re speculating that the vocal chord

swelled, cut off her airway, and that led to the respiratory arrest, ultimately the cardiac arrest.

The question is, though, she had not signed a release -- a consent to do this biopsy, so people are very concerned, Sam, why the doctors would have

proceeded with this.

I`ll tell you what was, they went in to do a gastrological procedure, to look at her esophagus. Why was she hoarse? She may have reflux coming up

to her vocal cords, the G.I. doctor went, saw something bad on her vocal chords, consulted an expert, brought them in to get the biopsy, why put an

81-year-old through anesthesia twice. This looks bad. We better do something. And it went south.

That`s -- so, to me, we really don`t know what`s going to happen but it`s not going to be some random two doctors running amuck with a celebrity`s

throat. There`s going to be darn good reason why they did this procedure.

However, what also is being reported and, Sam, you`ll find this to be outrageous, one of the physicians is reported to have taken a selfie while

Rivers was under anesthesia according to a source.

SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: So not OK, Dr. Drew. I mean, is this Dr. Pipkin (ph), how unprofessional. And essentially you are violating that person`s

privacy. If that was my mother, my grandmother, I would be pecked (ph).

PINSKY: If she was in the picture and if he posted the picture, I want to bring Anahita --

SCHACHER: Even if he didn`t post the picture, you can`t do that.

PINSKY: Well, let me talk to Anahita. Anahita, get in here. Anahita Sedaghatfar of AnahitaLaw.com.

So go ahead. What?

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: This is stupid. It`s not criminal. He can`t get in trouble with the law for this I don`t think.

But if you`re talking about a civil lawsuit, Dr. Drew, if her family decides to sue these doctors for malpractice, that absolutely that becomes

relevant because you`re showing that his conduct fell below the standard of care.

PINSKY: So, in another word --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Right. So, it`s showing that his character and his judgment are questionable even if she was not in the picture?

SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, I think it would go to show, look, this guy is taking selfies. I mean, this patient is under anesthesia. She`s in her 80s. But

it`s not criminal. It`s stupid if anything. And again, it`s admissible in a civil lawsuit.

SCHACHER: It`s more than stupidity, though, Dr. Drew. If you were to take a selfie while you`re doing an endoscopy, couldn`t you get in trouble, Dr.

Drew? I mean, this is a big deal.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHACHER: The biopsy.

SEDAGHATFAR: The biopsy after the fact. And the allegations are that this selfie was taken at the time he wasn`t doing anything.

PINSKY: Right. But the point is that it`s so unprofessional and so kind of bizarre. It`s so shabby, and if she was in the picture, even if it

hadn`t been posted, I say that`s a HIPAA violation.

SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, that would be a HIPAA violation for sure.

PINSKY: I come from, you know, many years in a psychiatric hospital where you couldn`t have a camera around because just holding a camera could cause

a patient distress. You could make them feel unstable. You could make them feel threaten. You could make them feel not safe, and as such,

destabilize them and ill-serve the patient.

You got to think about the patient first. Patient first always.

All right. You guys have any other questions about this because I`m going to switch gears.

SEDAGHATFAR: Times are changing, Dr. Drew. I think this is going to happen more frequently.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: in the operating room. Is that what you`re suggesting?

SEDAGHATFAR: -- it`s happened before. We covered another case on your show where a doctor was sexting somebody. And anesthesiologist were doing

that. It`s not OK.

SCHACHER: So, Dr. Drew, you have never taken a selfie in the operating room, Dr. Drew?

PINSKY: No. Not when I`m around a patient. Never taken a selfie.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: I`ve had patients take pictures of me for their social media which is questionable in and of itself.

All right. Switch girls -- new details about the house of squalor. Four children found living in filth, three dead babies discovered under mounds

of trash and dirty diapers. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The smell that came out of it immediately made me start gagging.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three dead babies inside a house so filthy that police officers had to wear hazmat suits.

PINSKY: Dirty diapers piled two feet high, vermin, bugs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are feces on the walls and on the surfaces.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More dead animals were found, a dog and a cat.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mother, 31-year-old Erika Murray.

PINSKY: What about the mother`s social profile?

SCHACHER: She seems loving, caring, intelligent. A good parent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Four other children ages six months to 13 years old were living in the house in deplorable conditions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Murray told investigators that her boyfriend only knew about two of the kids. The other two were born in secret.

PINSKY: She must have hid five pregnancies, three dead babies and two children that she`s baby sitting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Joining us, Karamo Brown, host of #OWNShow on Oprah.com, Anahita Sedaghatfar still with us from AnahitaLaw.com. Back with us, Vanessa

Barnett from hiphollywood.com.

And according to our affiliate, WBC, police had been called to that home 29 times during -- across the last 14 years.

Anahita, 29 times. Is this another failure of social services and police?

SEDAGHATFAR: This is the failure. We talked about this all the time. The system has failed our children, Dr. Drew.

If it`s true they went there 29 times, they saw the condition of these children, they saw the filth, they called CPS and nothing was done, well,

then I would say they have a lot of explaining to do, Dr. Drew. They need to be held accountable as well.

PINSKY: And yet, Karamo, you`ve been in the position of being overburdened with cases, walking into homes, trying to help people.

KARAMO BROWN, #OWNSHOW: Exactly.

PINSKY: Go ahead.

BROWN: Dr. Drew, Anahita, we cannot blame the people in social services. They are overworked. I can tell you that from firsthand experience.

SEDGHATFAR: Twenty-nine times?

BROWN: It does not matter.

If you are overworked and you are coming there for a specific reason, sometimes you don`t catch everything, if you have a lot of things.

Now, I`m not excusing the behavior of anyone who is working, going into these homes. I need you to understand that these people are overworked.

SEDAGHATFAR: Would you agree 29 times should raise red flags?

SCHACHER: It wasn`t 29 times. I need to correct that. It was 29 times from the year 2000 but a different family occupied the residence from 2000

to 2007. It was when they moved in they were visited eight times, still far too many times.

PINSKY: Eight times, why did we report 29 times then? Somebody explain why I just said 29 times, Sam.

SCHACHER: Because they did visit that residence 29 times but there was another family, maybe it was still with his family, maybe there is a

connection there.

(CROSSTALK)

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Everyone who lives in this house is foul and has loud music and doesn`t know how to act.

Look, I`m all for blaming the police. You shouldn`t go to a house more than once without some action being taken but at the end of the day, we

need to be mad at this woman who killed three babies. There are dead babies in this house.

And we need to be pissed --

(CROSSTALK)

SEDAGHATFAR: Believe in the system, too, you guys.

BARNETT: We need to be pissed off at this man who was living in this house full of squalor, not doing anything, and acting like he can`t notice that

this woman is pregnant five times? He`s lying. He should be in jail with this woman and we need to focus our attention on people who have killed

children here.

SCHACHER: Why is he off scot-free? I hope they`re investigating him thoroughly.

(CROSSTLAK)

SEDAGHATFAR: That`s an allegation. I agree that we don`t know the full facts yet. I mean, so far, she`s only charged with child neglect and

hiding these three bodies of the babies.

Yes, of course, if police investigate and find out the babies were alive and are now dead, she does face murder charges. But we can`t jump to

conclusions. Her lawyer has made many statements, Dr. Drew, today, that possibly a battered woman --

BROWN: We can`t jump to conclusion, Anahita, there are three children dead. There are three children dead. That is the only conclusion you need

is that their lives have ended and those children are not here.

SEDAGHATFAR: But that`s not how our system works.

BARNETT: But you know what we do know? That 3 year old could not walk and that 6-month-old baby had no signs of affection.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: They are switching back to two kids that were neglected and couldn`t walk and there`s possibly signs of neglect. I want to play you a

tape from the neighbor who discovered the children. She talked about what happened when she went into the house after seeing the kids. Like she had

not seen the kids before. She found the kids, went in the house. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I went into the first room and I found the smallest child. She was laying in a bed on a bed covered in feces. I said what are

you doing? What are you doing here? She said I don`t know. She rolled her eyes and laughed a little bit and said I don`t know.

I said did you know those babies were upstairs when you left this morning. Look at me in the eye as a mother and explain to me whether you knew those

babies were upstairs. She said I knew they were there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Is that not chilling? It`s a stunning, chilling indictment of this horrible situation.

Now, the attorney who my producer spoke to -- guys, I don`t want to misspeak. He told us that there are skeletal remains were at least 4 years

old. He also said that this woman has been mentally ill for a long time.

BARNETT: Lies.

PINSKY: Perhaps.

SEDAGHATFAR: That`s going to be her defense.

PINSKY: Well, I`ll bring in behavior bureau and we`ll talk about that and we`ll get more from the neighbor and why they never saw this coming.

And later, spanking versus child abuse versus discipline versus what`s the appropriate -- with switches. What`s the appropriate -- switches, what is

the appropriate way of adjusting a child`s behavior. An NFL player says he was disciplining his child but he left marks.

Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: She had four children but you did not know about the two younger ones, is that accurate?

NICOLE CANLAN, FAMILY FRIEND OF ACCUSED MOTHER: Yes, I had no idea.

PINSKY: This must be shocking to you.

CANLAN: It`s unbelievably shocking. I`m at loss for words. I know the entire family. I grew up literally next door.

She was a normal kid. She was shy. She was kind of quiet, you know? I think maybe she has low self-esteem but other than that, she was a normal

kid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: All right. Back with Sam and our behavior bureau. Emily Roberts, psychotherapist, Jena Kravitz, clinical psychologist, Jennifer Keitt, life

coach.

We are talking about the house of squalor. Four children found living in trash, filth, animal carcass, piled up dirty diapers. Three dead infants.

Jena, what does it suggest to you that she didn`t even bury the children or the animals?

JENA KRAVITZ, CLINICAL PYSCHOLOGIST: You know, it really is inconsistent. There are a lot of holes in this story, because for somebody who calculated

as much as she did and was sophisticated in her lying so much so that she was living a life where she was sort of detached and disassociated from

these other children that existed, you know, I`m not sure what to make of this. To be honest, in all of my patients, in 10 years of being a

clinician, I have never seen anything like this.

PINSKY: Yes, it`s not the usual fare. Emily, do you agree with that?

EMILY ROBERTS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Absolutely, and I also think that mental illness, her lawyer is using that as an excuse. This is not an excuse.

This is evil. This is criminal. This is disgusting.

There is something off absolutely but she calculated this.

PINSKY: Right.

ROBERTS: It`s not necessarily mental illness.

PINSKY: Right. And, Sam, do you have the Facebook post? There was some - - we had them yesterday.

SCHACHER: I do. I actually have a couple of additional ones, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: She`s presenting herself in a calculated way to her family and friends. Go ahead and read those.

SCHACHER: Absolutely. I have one from this past May. My kids have officially ditched me, my son and his friends and my daughter sleeping at

her friends.

Another one in August of 2011, I will be glad to see my kids tomorrow. It`s been nice but I`m bored to death without them.

She paints such a different picture.

PINSKY: LOL.

SCHACHER: Yes, exactly. It`s not who you think she is. Then you go into this person`s house and it`s like, wow, two different people completely.

PINSKY: Jennifer, what do you think?

JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: You know, there`s got to be something mentally wrong. This one I really wrestled with. I say that because in a 13-year

period, if those three dead children are hers, that means she had seven kids within 13 years.

And then she only acknowledged two. Only pretended to be mom of two, only came out on Facebook that she was the perfect mother for two children, plus

a husband living in the home. Something doesn`t add up and something must be wrong mentally.

PINSKY: Something, right? The first thing we thought, Emily, I`ll let you comment in a second. But the first thing we all thought yesterday on

behavior bureau as well, there must be some cognitive problem, an IQ problem. Friends said absolutely not.

She was a normal student. She was normally functioning. We didn`t see any mental illness back then.

Emily, any thought there could be coercion control by the boyfriend or husband, even though he`s not accused of anything. We`re just speculating.

ROBERTS: Oh, certainly. Also, we saw in the beginning she had the kids at 18 and 21. They were a normal kid, but at the end of the day, she had a

job, was carrying on a job, right? She had two kids she is posting on Facebook about and behind closed doors she was a different person. I mean,

the house itself speaks to having a lot of neglect for herself and her children.

PINSKY: Oh, my God.

And then, Jena, the neighbor if you heard her commenting about how they found her laying in feces and sort of trance like state, like kind of

laughing inappropriately.

But you think there`s a lot to coercion and control theory on the boyfriend.

KRAVITZ: I do, I do, absolutely. I think the key player is the boyfriend, absolutely.

When I think about as a clinician, why would someone be so motivated to hide things from their partner? I really think she was living under a

certain amount of control, and a huge amount of control by this man, and was really living in fear and sort of afraid to let him down. He made

clear he did not want to have anymore children and she had more children.

ROBERTS: I don`t think there`s any way she could hide this from him.

KEITT: How do you have a separate life like that?

ROBERTS: How do you not smell the dead children? How do you not smell the feces? He had to be involved.

PINSKY: Or see a delivery or see the products of a delivery. Come on.

SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, real quickly.

PINSKY: Sam?

SCHACHER: How is it -- OK, they were visited by CPS in 2007 and they entered the home. They looked at the children that were there., and they

did not find that the children were being used, apparently the house was not neglected to the way it is today.

So, what`s happened between 2007 and today? Something has gone on for everything to deteriorate.

PINSKY: Yes.

And, Jennifer, is there any -- I was talking to Jena in the green room about this, trying to decide -- last time we reported a story like this was

we actually talked to the father of the household. Do you remember this? Where there were bugs and pigs, and feces and if you remember he was

desperately trying to rectify the situation but it got out of control and in a week`s time, he claims, it sunk into squalor.

Is there any way, Jennifer, you think this could have happened quickly?

KEITT: Absolutely not. I mean, it just does not add up to me. I mean, those bodies. We don`t know how long those children have been dead in

there. But this has been for a very long time.

And I`m sorry. I can`t believe that manipulation by the husband, boyfriend, whomever he is, is really the cause of this. She`s going out to

work every single day. She has people -- these kids are attached to her people coming to the house to pick up children like normal people do. It

just doesn`t make sense to me.

PINSKY: Right, I`m used to this stuff being drugs and alcohol.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Which I think it`s a possibility.

PINSKY: They don`t work typically when they are this far down the road with alcohol. But, Jena, what about older kids that were a witness to all

this?

KRAVITZ: I was just thinking to myself, first of all, it doesn`t sound like they`ve been abused or neglected.

PINSKY: And, by the way, the father has the kids now.

KRAVITZ: Which is insane.

ROBERTS: That`s not OK.

PINSKY: Oh, I beg your pardon. He does not.

SCHACHER: Thank God.

PINSKY: I`m being corrected. I thought they did. OK, they`re with the grandparents?

KRAVITZ: Yes, they`re with the grandparents.

PINSKY: But, you know, also, a 13 year old who didn`t report this to a school official, even if you think your mom is baby sitting somebody who is

sitting in feces, why wouldn`t you say, hey, why wouldn`t we clean up the room and change the diaper? Especially a 13-year-old girl, 13-year-old

girls understand what it is to play with dolls and have maternal instincts with little babies. What`s wrong with the children? Why didn`t they know

right from wrong, dirty from clean? They have gone to their friends` houses, do they not know the difference? What is going on in this house?

ROBERTS: The kids were brainwashed.

(CROSSTALK)

ROBERTS: You saw your mom give birth to babies and you killed them, I would live in fear too.

PINSKY: Or again who knows --

KRAVITZ: Something is wrong mentally.

PINSKY: Back to coercion and control, how bad that got. There`s just so many missing pieces in this case. Hopefully, we`ll get to fill those holes

with information as time moves along here.

Thank you, panel.

Another NFL scandal. Did this man abuse his 4 year old by beating him with a switch to the point he bled about his legs and genitals?

And later, Facebook posts at a college boasts about poisoning her roommate. Is it for real? Is it fake? If it`s fake, why?

Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The pictures are startling. Skin lacerations inflicted by Adrian Peterson on his 4-year-old son. The professional football star

called it a whooping using a thin tree branch 10 to 15 times. We`ve also learned details of text messages Peterson allegedly sent to his mother

after the lashing, "Got him nuts once I noticed. But I felt so bad, I`m all tearing that butt up when needed. I start putting them in timeout, and

save the whooping for needed memories. He felt bad after the fact when I noticed the switch was wrapping around hitting thigh."

Nick Wright is a sports radio talk show host in Houston. Wright says the little boy told police he was scared of his father and he was often

punished in what the boy described as the whooping room and that Peterson had lots of belts. The boy talked about his father putting leaves in his

mouth while he was lashed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Wow. Back to Sam, Karamo, Anahita, and Vanessa.

The most tweeted about story of the day. Adrian Peterson charged with child abuse. Prosecutors have hard evidence in those photos obtained by

TMZ.

Sam, what else do we hear besides what you heard in that piece which by the way was enough.

SCHACHER: Yes. Well, he reportedly was on the phone with police, Dr. Drew, for 40 minutes, in which he justified the punishment and then he

released a statement that he visited a psychologist and there are better ways to discipline your child, yet he still denies being an abuser, and

then released another statement, a rather lengthy one on Twitter, and it reads in part, quote, "I have to live with the fact that when I discipline

my son the way I was disciplined as a child, I caused an injury that I never intended or thought would happen."

PINSKY: Putting leaves in his mouth?

SCHACHER: Yes. And just because you were tweeted that way doesn`t mean that you have to carry that on.

PINSKY: It`s so true.

I mean, Anahita, what do we do? The law is based on the facts, is it not? What we know what happens to children that are physically abused. The

facts are indisputable, right? That`s why we have laws to protect children? Why do people mess with that?

SEDAGHATFAR: Well, there`s a difference between disciplining your child and child abuse. We know in Texas here, they allow corporal punishment,

OK?

But once you start to leave scars and bruises and welts all over a child`s body, then that`s totally child abuse and not discipline anymore. And I

think it`s interesting that he says the same thing happened to me when I was a child. This is like custom in our culture --

PINSKY: What if something else horrible happened to him? Then you say that`s the way it was for me so I carry it forward.

BARNETT: That`s not what he was saying.

SEDAGHATFAR: No, no, hold on. In his mind, he doesn`t think he`s doing anything wrong. I believe him, because he`s saying, look, this is what my

parents did to me. It made me a better kid. It made me the man I am today. That`s what he said.

That`s not a defense but I believe in his mind he thought he was doing this because he loves his child. It`s just discipline.

BROWN: Anahita, first of all, can I just let you know quickly that`s not child abuse. It`s -- we have to look at intent. This is too ambiguous --

PINSKY: What?

BROWN: No, I do not believe this was child abuse, and everyone at home can listen to me as a father. I`m telling you right now. I don`t see this as

child abuse.

And by the law, that you have to look at intent and you have to see also a parent is allowed to discipline their child.

PINSKY: I love my child. I cut their arm off?

SCHACHER: Yes.

SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. The law clear that if it requires medical attention, at least in Texas, then it does become abuse. It`s not considered discipline.

PINSKY: Where do you draw the line?

BARNETT: He said he went too far. At the end of the day, this is not something that`s uncommon. This happens.

PINSKY: Lots of horrible things are uncommon.

BARNETT: At the end of the day, it is his intent. He did not mean to do this to the point that he did it.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Pedophiles intend to love the child so much they can`t control themselves.

BARNETT: Who are we to say he doesn`t love his child?

PINSKY: I`m not saying for a second he doesn`t love his child.

BARNETT: He made a mistake and is feeling what he needs to do to correct this issue. We`ve seen it in the news. Charles Barkley talked about it.

Reggie Bush talked about it.

This is not uncommon in the African-American culture and I`m going to go on record and say it.

SCHACHER: It doesn`t mean it makes it right, though.

BARNETT: It doesn`t make it wrong because you`re unfamiliar with it.

SCHACHER: Oh my gosh!

PINSKY: Let me be super clear, super clear. From a clinical standpoint, we know for sure using physical violence teaches a kid that`s what loved

ones do to one another. They hit each other. And that`s what you do when you want to control people with behavior, you hit each other.

Research also shows that when you hit a child, their behavior stops in the moment and then comes back quickly and actually goes above the baseline and

gets worse. We also know that if you -- if a child has terror during the abuse for any reason, it shatters their ability to regulate and traumatizes

and changes their brain development.

It literally changes the relationship of the brain to the body. The nerve starts mediating disassociation in the brain as a way of surviving,

survival mode becomes a way of regulating emotions.

It`s a very problematic brain condition that we in addiction medicine treat every day. It`s what sets up people then seeking substances as a way to

try to regulate.

Let`s look at what Charles Barkley, former NBA player says to an analyst. Listen to what he said about this on CBS "The Dan Patrick Show."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES BARKLEY, FORMER NBA PLAYER: I understand Boomer`s rage and anger. He`s a white guy. I`m a black guy. I don`t know where he`s from. I`m

from the South. Whipping is, we do that all the time. Every black parent in the South is going to be in jail under those circumstances.

A lot of friends who are white and Italian sent me a text last night says, "I don`t understand why you`re making this a black thing. Our parents

spanked the hell out of us, too."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: You remember that judge down in the South, who`s whipping his child with a belt, it`s not a race thing. It`s a parenting thing. And, it

is a problem that when parents use these primitive methods.

And, why would -- Vanessa, help me with this. If it was a good parenting mechanism and that a research showed that it was useful and helpful to

kids, of course, I would advocate it. It shows exactly the opposite, though, that It harms kids.

BARNETT: Look. If I am being 100 percent honest, I do not know where your pool of research has come from but from the eyes that I have, I have seen

it worked, effectively.

PINSKY: Vanessa. Vanessa. Vanessa. I will bring in --

BARNETT: I have seen families in which --

PINSKY: I will bring in the Behavioral Bureau in which we will go over there.

BARNETT: -- my own. My brother got spankings. It did not work for me. My brother got spankings. He did not get beat with a switch. He got

spankings, and it helped. It pushed you in a kind of discipline and it worked in his case and I have seen it worked several times. We are not

punching kids in the face and give them black eyes. We are not in a house of squalor with three dead babies. We are spanking when necessary.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: But, here is -- I have been thinking a lot about this. And, I will tell you that what you are saying, Vanessa, I think is exactly right.

We need to find the zone. We need to find a zone where people -- where there can be cultural variability, but we do not harm kids.

SEDAGHATFAR: How about not leaving marks, Dr. Drew? How about not leaving --

BARNETT: Thank you.

PINSKY: I believe that should be the zone.

SCHACHER: How can you even say that with a straight face, though?

BROWN: Anahita, I am sure, you know, somebody who is giving their child a spanking and then what happens when that child gets a welt?

SEDAGHATFAR: So, why do we have laws?

BROWN: I agree with Vanessa, 100 percent. It is the intent.

SEDAGHATFAR: Let me ask you this. Why do we have laws?

BROWN: And, I do not believe this man intended to harm his child.

SEDAGHATFAR: Karamo.

BROWN: With the laws, the laws are ambiguous and vague in this.

PINSKY: They are?

SEDAGHATFAR: It did not work that way. It is not an excuse. That is exactly why we have law and order in this country.

BARNETT: Law and order is different than telling me how to raise my child and how to discipline my child.

BROWN: Thank you.

BARNETT: I can spank my child lightly.

SEDAGHATFAR: I am all for that.

BARNETT: Yes, the switch was too far. He admitted that. He admitted that.

PINSKY: OK. OK.

BARNETT: He admitted the switch was too far. But, the law and order are not going to come in my house and tell me how to discipline my child.

SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, they are when they are charging you with a felony for leaving welts and marks and bruises.

BARNETT: Yes. I am not punching my child in the chest --

SEDAGHATFAR: They are going to get involved.

BARNETT: -- and I am not taking their life away from them. But, if she needs a tap on that thigh, I do not need a police officer at my door saying

--

SEDAGHATFAR: That is different.

BROWN: I agreed with you, Vanessa. Agreed.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Sam, last word.

SCHACHER: Let us talk about this child here that has welts all over his testicles --

SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly.

SCHACHER: -- his anus, his inner thigh is bleeding. That is abuse --

BARNETT: The way she said it was too far.

SCHACHER: You said it was a mistake. Guess who is paying for his mistake? His kid.

SEDAGHATFAR: Right.

PINSKY: We will leave it there. Supporters for Adrian Peterson. Another NFL player admits to physically disciplining his 1 year old. And, later,

who would try to poison a college student and then brag about it on Facebook? Is it this a joke? Is it not a joke? We got to figure what

that is and why someone would do such a thing. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEITT: Dr. Drew, I have raised four children. I am sorry. I disciplined them corporally. I mean I use the belt.

PINSKY: But, why in the face of every shred of psychological and behaviour research that is out there? Why?

KEITT: Because I have another world view that would say, our Christian world view that would say that if you spare the rod you would spoil the

child --

PINSKY: Jennifer. Jennifer, why -

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam. We are talking about Adrian Peterson. Obviously, a lot of intense emotions about this. He was charged with abusing one of

his sons. Reggie Bush from the Detroit Lions, who weighed in with this on WFNA Radio.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE RADIO HOST: Should Adrian Peterson be allowed to play football?

REGGIE BUSH, DETROIT LIONS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE RADIO HOST: Yes.

BUSH: I got what we call whoopings, and you know -- whooping with a belt and stuff like that. So, you know, for me, growing up, it was normal. I

have a 1-year-old daughter. I definitely will try to -- obviously not leave bruises or anything like that on her, but I definitely will

discipline her harshly you know, depending on what, you know what -- again, what the situation is.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: And, Sam our affiliated KHOU reported another incident with another one of his children, right?

SCHACHER: Yes. You are right, Dr. Drew. That station was sent photos and texts about a 4-year-old child, his child with another woman. Not the

mother that we have been talking about. And, in these photos it shows one with him having bandages on his head from a wound, others having a scar

over his right eye. We also have those text messages, Dr. Drew, in question. One -- do you have the graphic or should I just read them

through?

PINSKY: There you go. Go ahead.

SCHACHER: OK. So, I have here from the mother what happened to his head from Peterson? Hit his head on the car seat. From the mother, how does

that happen? He got a whooping in the car? Peterson: Yep. Mother: Why? Peterson: I felt so bad, but he did it himself. And, the mother did ask

him, what did you hit him with? Peterson never did respond to that question and charges were never filed.

PINSKY: OK. Behaviour Bureau is back with us, Emily, Jena and Jennifer. Jennifer, I know your feelings. I am going to give you last word but let

me hear it from the other two first, real quick. What does research tell us? What has your experience been in dealing with children that are then

growing up after these physical abuse instances? Jena, you are first.

KRAVITZ: Absolutely. What we know is that violence begets more violence. That is no secret here. And, yes, Dr. Drew, you are right. What we know

also is that there is, basically -- the literature is in agreement. That punishment is not a way to remove an undesirable behavior.

There is a difference between punishment and discipline. Punishment is inflicting discomfort and pain to remove an undesirable behaviour. While,

discipline uses education, training and establishes a foundation in trust, respect and empathy in order to change a behavior. What we have seen here

is not punishment even. It is assault. Punishment is punitive. Assault is the same. This is what we have seen here.

PINSKY: Emily, what do you see with adolescence, a lot of consequences from these experiences?

ROBERTS: A lot of consequences. Absolutely. We see these kids who have been using the same behaviors in their own lives, right? So, they will

respond with aggression. They will respond with abusing other kids, because we are also not teaching them how to sit with their emotions. They

are reacting just like their parents are.

You are not teaching your child anything by reacting in emotion, right? What you are doing is you are teaching them to do the same thing over and

over again. And, these kids are scared. Get this child out of there.

This child was afraid even though a lot of kids have allegiance to their parents, this child said in those documents that you showed earlier that he

was afraid. And, that is a 4 year old saying he is afraid of his dad. And, that is very, very sick.

PINSKY: And, Jennifer, I want to leave a zone where we find some way that people have a zone to really express their cultural preference, you know?

I am a libertarian at heart, so I like that. But, how do we reconcile these different things?

JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: Well, I think that to me putting it in a broader context, so I get you guys talking about abuse. I never, ever,

ever, e3ver advocate abuse.

PINSKY: Well, how do we qualify abuse? What is abuse then?

KEITT: OK.

PINSKY: Let us define them.

KEITT: So, by definition spanking, using your hand on that soft butt of a child 2, 3, 4 years old after and in addition to training, teaching them

how to obey, teaching them to make sure that they are going the way you want them to go and if after the 49th millionth time you have told them,

"Do not touch this or do not move that or do not hit your sister," as parents too, I think it is perfectly OK to swat them, to get their

attention, to make them move in a direction. That is not the same as abuse.

PINSKY: Right. We agree.

KEITT: That is not the same as abuse, so that what I am talking about.

PINSKY: Hold on. Hold on.

ROBERTS: But, the child does not know the intent.

PINSKY: There is a zone here.

KEITT: The child knows right from wrong, though. The child does know -- If you told the child -- I got four children and they knew at 2 years old

when mom said do not go out in the street or do not hit each other or do not cuss or do not lie or do not cheat or do not steal. They knew that.

So, if they knew that, they can also know how to not do that. And, if I need to get their attention by spanking, I am going to do it.

PINSKY: OK. Jennifer, Jena, you could say there might be better ways but Jennifer has a point. That is not abuse. Do we agree with that?

KRAVITZ: Yes.

KEITH: It is not abuse. It is not abuse.

PINSKY: OK. So, we are all kind of in agreement on this, right?

SCHACHER: Yes. I do not think Jennifer is producing welts and making her children bleed.

PINSKY: Right. So, will you talk to Vanessa for me, Jennifer? Because, she thought it was OK that Adrian Peterson did what he did.

KEITT: See. I do not know that she said that. I mean I heard the last segment and what I heard Vanessa saying was that she did not want anyone

coming in there telling her how to parent her child.

PINSKY: Yes.

KEITT: And, I hundred percent agree with that.

PINSKY: I am going with that too.

KEITT: I do not believe that, that is right. Because as a parent, Dr. Drew, it is my responsibility to make sure that my kid is not a menace to

society. And, if I got to do that by swatting their behind in addition to disciplining them, then I think that, that is my right as a parent to do.

And, I think that is saving society.

ROBERTS: But, we do not know what long-term effects of that are. These kids are afraid, sometimes. Maybe not your children, but I have seen kids

in big, big fear response modes when they are 13, 14, 15 years old, because they are afraid of their parents. We do not want kids to be afraid. We

want them to be loved and want them to go with their parents.

KEITT: Were there parents disciplining or were their parents abusing? There is a difference.

PINSKY: Yes.

ROBERTS: It is a fine line.

PINSKY: Jennifer, I like where you are going with this. We have to take a break. We are trying to find the zone where some people can get the

attention as you say, use corporal punishment without abuse. There may be room for research there.

KEITT: It is possible.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes. I am going to give you that. But just dismissing extreme physical violence, we are doing a disservice to kids and it has a

profound effect on them. And, just because it happened to someone, it is not OK. Also, there is an actual characteristic feature. Give me the

camera here. People who are physically abused, which is -- and sexually abused, too, which is it happened to me. I needed it --

Particularly, physical abuse. I needed it. I turned out fine. But, they do not have perception of the significant effects on their emotional

regulation. Always has a residual effect on the brain. And, that is something we see all the time in therapy. That is where we help people

bring out, so they do not run to other means of regulating. Next up, a Facebook mystery. Did a student really try to poison her roommate? Police

are not laughing about provocative posts that she left. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have fallen in love with my roommate. I am not intimately or sexually in love with her, but I have a desire to emotionally

connect with her. Sometimes, I put in OTC drugs to induce nausea; all because I want to see her ill and be there for her.

I have done things like put laxative in her soup or alcohol in her drink. If you betray me like that again, I have the mind to beat your little

(EXPLICIT WORD) into a coma."

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Karamo, Anahita and Jennifer. What you just heard was a recreation of anonymous confessions posted by a Facebook page where

university students vent about campus life. The poster, so to speak, the woman that posted this says her roommate has cystic fibrosis and that she

has been poisoning her to bring them closer together. Sam, could this be a hoax?

SCHACHER: You know what, Dr. Drew? It could be. I mean university police and local investigators are asking Facebook to reveal this person`s name,

their IP address. We still do not know if this person is actually a student and if you just suggested whether or not these confessions are

real.

PINSKY: Anahita, if it is a hoax, has she done something illegal?

SEDAGHATFAR: I think so, Dr. Drew. Even if it is not a hoax, you are still threatening somebody. I think it is real. I think she is speaking

in too much detail, because she is getting specific about putting drugs in her food and saying I want her to need me and I am going to punish her.

I think that is enough to get Facebook to turn over whatever information they have. And, you know I do not like big brother. I do not like people

monitoring online activities but when it comes to possible criminal conduct, I think that goes out the door. So, Facebook should turn over

this information to the police in my opinion.

PINSKY: Jennifer, did this give you any sense -- if it were real factual or maybe a recreation of something that somebody is trying to make as if it

were a clinical syndrome, I get that Munchausen by proxy feel. Did you get that feeling with this?

KEITT: She is definitely crazy. Absolutely. I am sorry. And, I say that because it makes my heart race because I have kids in college and this

scare me whether it is a hoax or not. It scares me. Every time that my daughters or son go into random roommates, I get that panic.

PINSKY: Yes.

KEITT: Because you do not know where people are. And, so while I agree with Anahita that we should not have to monitor people`s Facebook pages; it

is scary to me really where we are going with this. And, Yes!

PINSKY: And, Karamo, is there something weird going on with young people wanting to expose online? Weird testimonial things the kids are getting

into. You know what I am saying?

(LAUGHING)

BROWN: Yes. I do know what you are saying, Dr. Drew. And, maybe it is because I am very up on social media. I think this is a joke. And, I

think it is ridiculous. This girl is crazy. And, she just wants attention.

People go to social media because they are craving attention in their lives. It is the reason why people are obsessed with how many likes they

have, with how many followers they have, with how many people are telling them that they look good in a photo. She just wants attention.

SCHACHER: But, she is harmless.

SEDAGHATFAR: This is an unanimous post, so that what makes me think it is not a hoax. Because, if she wanted attention, she would have identified

herself.

PINSKY: What if she is really doing it?

BROWN: No.

SEDAGHATFAR: Right. Exactly.

BROWN: She is getting attention right now.

SCHACHER: I am with you, Karamo.

BROWN: Thank you, Sam. She is getting attention she wants right now.

SEDAGHATFAR: But, we do not know who she is.

BROWN: Anonymous or not. It does not matter.

SCHACHER: It does not matter. She is getting her fix. Exactly. She wants to see people`s feathers get ruffled. We do not even know if this is

a she. This could be a troll trying to get a reaction from people. I visited a lot of unanimous sites and I see a lot of trolling on them as

well.

PINSKY: Well, stay with me. Panel stays with me. We are going to talk next about these secret confessional sites. There is a number of websites

and apps. I keep this conversation going about what the appeal is to those things. And, Jennifer, I will get your comment right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have fallen in love with my roommate. I have done things like put laxative in her soup or alcohol in her drink. Sometimes, I

put in OTC drugs to induce nausea; all because I want to see her ill and be there for her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Karamo, Anahita and Jennifer. You just heard a recreation of some anonymous confessions found on a Facebook page, where

cause students are allowed to vent. And, Sam, you mentioned before the break about apps that help people confess their secrets. Tell me about

that.

SCHACHER: Oh my Gosh. There are dozens of these digital confessionals, Dr. Drew, that are quite popular. Some, that come to mind. There is post

secrete. These are the ones --

PINSKY: Do we have any pictures of these things, what they look like online.

SCHACHER: I think we have post secrets, some images that reflect that. And, that is when you make an artistic postcard with your secret. You send

it in and founder then puts it up online and then other people can comment on it. There is another one called the Whisper app. And, the Whisper app

is where you unleash, unburden yourself with a secret and then other users can connect with you if they identify with your secret.

PINSKY: Have you ever used it?

SCHACHER: I have never used it, Dr. Drew, but --

PINSKY: Can you understand people using it?

SCHACHER: Well, Askfm is really popular amongst teens, and that is qhere you question and answer. I understand that one. But, I have to tell you,

I have done stories on these and often times it attracts a lot of trolls and a lot bullies looking for attention.

PINSKY: Interesting. Jennifer, before the break you were trying to say something. I interrupted you, go ahead.

KEITT: Well, yes. When we want attention to the point where we are talking about harming someone else, that is when I think it gets dangerous.

Because every time even on this show, Dr. Drew, when we end up talking about a really tragic accident or tragic tragedy, we go back to the

Facebook pages, we go back to the Twitter accounts and we can see all of the person writing out what they were going to do beforehand. I do not

think we can just take these and just say that is just somebody who wants attention and think nothing of it.

SCHACHER: You still should investigate. You still should investigate, 100 percent. Absolutely. Better safe than sorry.

PINSKY: Karamo, I agree with Jennifer 100 percent.

BROWN: Yes. I am sorry, Dr. Drew. I do not agree with either one of you. I am with Sam on this. Just because -- I know like what Jennifer said that

we do go back when someone does something and we see what is on Facebook. We are going to see what their mental state was.

But, in this case, this woman was putting an anonymous post. I worked with children. The things that these children post day in and day out would

blow your mind. It is ridiculous. And, most of them do not warrant anything.

SEDAGHATFAR: It is disturbing, though.

PINSKY: Well, here is what I want to know --

BROWN: She said, I put alcohol in her drink and laxatives.

PINSKY: Yes.

BROWN: She did not say that she was cutting up glass and putting it in her meal, like --

PINSKY: Here is what I want to know. I want to know who posses Karamo`s body today? Some aliens stepped in and took over Karamo and I want the old

Karamo back, if you do not mind.

(LAUGHING)

SCHACHER: He has been abducted.

PINSKY: It certainly seems like it, but I am listening. I am all ears. It is fascinating. He is just a new guy. I mean, the point -- as with

every one of these topics, there are many different ways to look at it from the freedom of expression issues, which we are all for from the issues of,

if you see something, say something; then so be sure to not ignore these things if they look strange or problematic. And, Sam is saying the fact

that we should not encourage trolls to be gratified by getting everyone else emotional.

SEDAGHATFAR: Right.

KEITT: Yes, but how do you know when it is a troll?

PINSKY: I know.

SCHACHER: Yes. I know.

SEDAGHATFAR: And, are not secrets supposed to be secret? What is the point of these apps? I do not understand that at all.

PINSKY: Sam in 10 seconds, can you explain it? I do not get it, either.

SCHACHER: I think either to unburden yourself or for attention.

PINSKY: It is like a confessional?

SCHACHER: It is a digital confessional.

PINSKY: It is like a confessional and yet it is being used as a way of getting attention, which is again that sort of narcissistic impulse that

Jennifer is talking about that makes us all very, very disturbed. Great panel. Great show. DVR us, please and you can watch us any time.

"Forensic Files" follows this program. Stay with us for after show on Facebook. "Forensic Files," up now.

END