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CNN TONIGHT

NFL Controversy; Ohio School Shooter Escapes From Prison; Interview with Tavis Smiley; America Struggling with Issues of Race; Interview with Rep. Trent Franks and Rep. Brad Sherman; Official: Surveillance Flights Begin Over Syria; CIA: ISIS Has Up to 31,500 Fighters

Aired September 11, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Don Lemon is on assignment.

Another shocker in the Ray Rice story, new reports tonight that Rice came clean to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell back in June, telling him he punched his then-fiancee in that casino elevator. This is according to ESPN, which says it got the story from four sources.

So, why did Goodell tell CBS News that Rice's original count was "ambiguous" and is it time for a zero-tolerance policy at the NFL?

Also, superstar athlete in trouble for allegedly attacking his girlfriend. We're not talking about Ray Rice. We're talking about boxer Floyd Mayweather, who is set to make upwards of $40 million this weekend, despite having been previously convicted of domestic violence. Why does he keep his career when Ray Rice does not?

One of America's toughest attorneys has filed suit against Mayweather. And she joins us tonight.

And the clock is ticking to the first airstrikes on is inside Syria. Will the president's plan work or will this turn into another Middle East quagmire? We will get into all of that tonight.

Plus, Tavis Smiley's take on the Ray Rice scandal.

But let's begin the latest on the Ray Rice and the NFL commissioner, Roger Goodell, plus an awkward change of tune at the Ravens' game tonight.

CNN's Miguel Marquez joins us with the update.

What have we learned today, Miguel?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A lot of awkwardness today there, Alisyn.

Yes. Look, ESPN reporting that on a June 16 meeting which Rice, his wife, two reps from the union, the players union were there, Ozzie Newsome, the GM, as well as the president of the Ravens, and Rice's lawyer and others, four of the individuals, telling ESPN that Rice told Roger Goodell at that meeting that he punched or hit his wife in that elevator. A fifth source telling them that he slapped her.

All of this in contradiction to what he told Norah O'Donnell from CBS News earlier in the week, when he was saying that it was unclear what happened in that elevator. Certainly, the complaint that was out there from day one of all this indicates that he hit her and rendered her unconscious as well, so all that information is out there.

It does raise questions about what exactly Goodell was talking about when he said it wasn't clear. The owner of the of the Ravens, Steve Bisciotti, also talked about this and put it in terms of, we wanted to believe that this was sort of a mutual fight inside of that elevator and something happened, she fell over, hit her head on the railing, and was knocked out.

So, it's not very clear whether that happened. With regard to tonight's Ravens/Steelers game, the pregame show supposed to have a big video production of Rihanna in the Jay-Z video "Run This Town." They had remade it. It was going to sort of headline the CBS' new Thursday night lineup for the NFL. They pulled that because Rihanna herself was a victim of domestic abuse from her ex, Chris Brown.

CAMEROTA: Miguel, they didn't think of that until a few hours before the game? That's how tone-deaf the NFL is? They didn't put two and two together that Rihanna, it might be a horribly awkward moment?

MARQUEZ: They planned this long ago. And they put a lot of money into the video, I'm sure. You know the famous Hank Williams song that played before "Monday Night Football." This was supposed to be the ancillary to it.

What was amazing though is what was meant to be sort of a star-studded and sexy start to this Thursday night CBS game ended up being a sort of a news show with all the broadcasters, James Brown, J.B., literally telling people that they had to start paying attention to domestic violence, almost like a preacher. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES BROWN, CBS: Consider this. According to domestic violence experts, more than three women a day lose their lives at the hand of their partner. That means that since the night of February 15 in Atlantic City, more than 600 women have died. So this is yet another call to men to stand up and take responsibility for their thoughts, their word, their deeds, and as Deion says to give help or get help, because our silence is deafening and deadly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: Almost like proselytizing during the pregame show tonight.

Deion Sanders, who was cited with domestic violence, but there were no charges eventually filed, literally turns to the camera and addresses that, saying I just want everybody to know that I never had anything to do with this and then goes on with the show.

It was a pretty bizarre and interesting start to the season -- Alisyn. CAMEROTA: It sure sounds like it. Miguel Marquez, thank so much for all the news of the day.

Well, the Ray and Janay Rice saga has officially become political; 16 female U.S. senators have sent a letter to Roger Goodell, demanding that the NFL institute a zero-tolerance policy on domestic violence. But is that realistic?

Joining us to discuss that now are Areva Martin. She is an attorney and women's right advocate, also Soraya Nadia McDonald, staff writer for "The Washington Post," and Dave Zirin, sports editor for "The Nation" magazine.

Thanks to all of you for being here.

Let me read a portion of the letter the 16 U.S. senators sent to the NFL today so you can get a flavor for it. They say: "We are deeply concerned that the NFL's new policy announced last month would allow a player to commit a violent act against a woman and return after a short suspension. If you violently assault a woman, you shouldn't get a second chance to play football in the NFL. It's long past time for the NFL to institute to a real zero-tolerance policy and send a strong message that the league will not tolerate violence against a woman by its players who are role models for children across America."

Areva, let me start with you. Is this a good idea?

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: I think it is an excellent idea.

I think the only way we are going to see real change in the NFL is having all aspects of the federal government, state government, private companies, nonprofit organizations, domestic violence, women's rights advocates and this entire country bringing to bear pressure on the NFL to make some real changes.

Alisyn, I am really disturbed, because when I look at how the NFL has the treated its domestic violence cases, there seems to be this sense to see that they want to wait to see what the law does, like in the case of the 49ers. They're waiting to see for that particular player, Ray McDonald, if charges will be filed.

Then there's another case with the Panthers, where this guy, Greg Hardy, has been convicted, but they're waiting to see what happens with his appeal. The NFL doesn't have to follow what county prosecutors all over the country do. It can set its own zero- tolerance policy and hold its players accountable. It's time for them to do that.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: But then, Dave, how would it work? They would lose, they would be suspended or lose their job even before being adjudicated because a woman accused them of something?

DAVE ZIRIN, "THE NATION": Yes, look, I have spent my professional life as a sportswriter, writing about violence against women and domestic violence in sports. It's abhorrent to me.

That being said, I think the -- I respectfully disagree about the idea of zero tolerance, if zero tolerance means that the player will be removed from the NFL permanently, one strike and you are out. And I will tell you why I disagree, because having spoken to domestic violence experts over the past week, one of the things that could potentially do is actually disincentivize women from coming forward to say anything.

You have to keep in mind, a lot of NFL players come from impoverished backgrounds. The typical NFL career is only three-and-a-half years. You have three-and-a-half years to make money that is supposed to give you bank for your entire life. The pressure and the disincentivizing that that could put on a woman to not come forward if it means she's going to economically dislocate her family and her future would be profound.

The NFL has to set up ways. The current system is ridiculous. I completely agree with that. But it has to set up avenues of confidentiality so women can come forward and ask for the help that they want with the self-determination that they need.

CAMEROTA: OK. Soraya, is that the answer?

SORAYA NADIA MCDONALD, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Yes. I think David is on the right track when he says, because that is a huge concern.

We sort of, tend to think of these situations of domestic violence as only the violence that occurs in these relationships, right? But these women, it's not like the situations in these relationships are horrible all the time. There is something that is keeping them there.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Of course. That's what we have learned over these past few days, that women have all sorts of reasons for staying, some of them intimidation.

But I just want to show you this is basically the file of, since 2010, how many NFL players have been arrested for domestic violence, at least 20.

So, Areva, something has to happen.

MARTIN: And let me just respond quickly, Alisyn, to what the other panelist said.

If you want to play the argument out to its fullest extent, you would say we shouldn't have criminal punishment for domestic violence because that could disincentivize women from coming forth because they know their husbands or spouses are going to be arrested and prosecuted.

So the fact that there is going to be consequences isn't going to change.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: It doesn't prevent women from coming forward.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: But I want to ask you, I want to challenge you on your point you. You think that people should lose their jobs before they're adjudicated, just on an accusation?

MARTIN: What I'm saying is, there should be a full investigation and a determination. And it doesn't have to be at the level of a criminal standard.

Think about what happens in a criminal case. The standard is beyond reasonable doubt. That is an incredibly high standard. In the workplace, we often fire people because of sexual harassment, racial discrimination, and other infractions because there are rules set up in the company.

That doesn't mean the person has committed a crime or there's been a criminal adjudication, but there are standards and violations of company policy.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: And all we're saying in the NFL is get some policies that make sense. And if people break them, have some consequences.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Dave, go ahead.

ZIRIN: I completely agree with that, that the NFL needs a much better, much smarter policy about how to deal with violence against women and a proactive violence.

The reason why Roger Goodell is in trouble because he has been reading from the same playbook that the NFL has been reading from for decades, which is that when violence against women takes place, you brush it under the rug and you cover it up. It's time for women's voices to be heard.

The thing that you don't want to do, though -- I just got to go back to this -- is anything that disincentivizes women from coming forward has to be immediately looked at with a little bit of a side-eye, because what you don't want is women staying in relationships because they think that they're going to destroy the family unit themselves.

There needs to be a way to get the help that they want. There needs to be confidential counseling. The NFL's current standard for counseling was Ray Rice and Janay Rice coming into his office and talking in front of him together. That is obscene by any standard of how you deal with domestic violence. That's what needs to change.

CAMEROTA: Well, obviously, you all agree something needs to be done.

Areva, Soraya, Dave, thanks so much for coming in with your perspectives on this.

MARTIN: Thanks, Alisyn.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much.

When we come back, breaking news. An Ohio school shooter has escaped from prison. We will hear from his lawyer.

Also, the superstar athlete who did time for domestic abuse, but just keeps getting bigger and bigger paychecks. Boxer Floyd Mayweather, what is his story? Gloria Allred is involved in a new lawsuit against him. She is here tonight.

Also, this country is on the verge of airstrikes against ISIS in Syria. Does the president's plan go far enough? We will talk to one opponent who says it goes too far.

And Tavis Smiley will weigh in on the ray Rice story, also Ferguson, Missouri, and what Dr. Martin Luther King would think of America today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CAMEROTA: We do have some breaking news to tell you about tonight.

Ohio school shooter T.J. Lane escaped from prison. Lane was sentenced to life for killing three fellow students at Chardon High School in Ohio in 2012. He escaped tonight along with two other prisoners, one of whom has already been captured.

The search, we are told, is focused on a wooded area to the north of the Allen Correctional Facility. That's the prison from which he escaped. People in the area are advised not to open their doors for strangers and to call police if they see anything suspicious.

Joining us now on the phone is Ian Friedman. He was T.J. Lane's attorney for his trial.

Mr. Friedman, thank you for being on the phone with us. When is the last time you talked to T.J.?

IAN FRIEDMAN, ATTORNEY: Thanks, Alisyn.

It had to probably in the month or two following the plea and sentence. This was about a year ago. I got to tell you, this is last thing I thought we would be talking about tonight.

CAMEROTA: And why is that? You didn't think he was capable of something like this?

FRIEDMAN: No, who would ever think that -- you never plan on someone escaping, and certainly someone of that notoriety, you would think that they would take precautions to prevent this.

We're shocked always when someone escapes. But someone, like I said, T.J. Lane., this was a huge case here in Ohio. Everyone in Ohio is shocked right now.

CAMEROTA: We're looking at video of T.J. Lane in the courtroom. There was just a sort of disturbing shot of him where he looked kind of amused. He was smiling and grinning a little bit. Can you tell us more about his state of mind?

FRIEDMAN: Yes, no one is going to be able to know for certain what was in T.J.'s mind except T.J. himself.

That was for everyone in that courtroom, the victims, their families, the prosecutors, defense, everyone in that courtroom was just absolutely taken aback. There was no way to fully comprehend what happened in the courtroom that afternoon.

CAMEROTA: Did he explain why he killed three fellow students?

FRIEDMAN: No, he never did. This is something that he has been clear. He's been determined that he is going to take this with him. Only he is going to know. We never went to trial. So, it was never something that was stated openly in court.

CAMEROTA: So tonight police are warning people in this area to stay inside, to not answer the door if a stranger knocks. How dangerous do you think T.J. Lane is?

FRIEDMAN: I can't get into anything obviously that he stated to me, attorney-client privilege.

However, we all know why we were in court. I wouldn't have even been needed had a bunch of children not been killed and harmed for life. I think the actions speak for themselves. There is good reason, obviously, to give a warning to all the people surrounding.

CAMEROTA: You think in this area of Ohio tonight people do need to feel that they're in some level of danger or take precautions?

FRIEDMAN: Look, any time anyone escapes from prison, they don't want to go back. No one ever wants to go to prison. So that, by itself, should give people cause to be concerned.

Again, we all know why we were in court. We all know what happened in Chardon High School. And therefore it doesn't take any great leap to know and to believe that people should be concerned. Absolutely.

CAMEROTA: In court, in court was he wearing a T-shirt that said killer?

FRIEDMAN: He did. He took off the outer shirt in court at the time of sentencing to reveal that some time prior to entering the courtroom, whether it was that morning or the night before, he had scribbled the word killer on the white T-shirt that was provided by the jail. CAMEROTA: Well, tonight, there is a warning for any one in this area,

that this prisoner, T.J. Lane, this murderer, convicted murderer, has escaped from prison. The police are telling everyone to stay inside and not answer their door if a stranger knocks on their door.

We will keep everyone posted as to the developments of this escape by T.J. Lane. Ian Friedman, thank you for joining us.

FRIEDMAN: You are very welcome. Thank you, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right, we will keep you posted. We will keep an eye on that story and give you all the developments.

Meanwhile, while the country is consumed with the Ray Rice saga, another high-profile domestic violence case is playing out. America's highest paid athlete, Floyd Mayweather, is accused of assaulting his girlfriend, Shantel Jackson.

Gloria Allred represents her. And she joins us now on the phone.

Gloria, thanks for being here.

GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Well, thanks for having me.

CAMEROTA: What does your client allege happened to her?

ALLRED: Well, she alleges among many others things that she was assaulted by Mr. Mayweather.

That's what is alleged in the lawsuit. You know, I do think that people should boycott Mayweather's fight on Saturday in protest of his history and his current stance on domestic violence, as well as his support of Ray Rice.

The public shouldn't order and pay for the pay-per-view broadcast of the Mayweather fight, because that would only serve to support and reward Mr. Mayweather. I also think the Nevada Boxing Commission should really step up to the plate. They should suspend the upcoming match, because they never took any action against him following his plea and his sentencing for domestic violence against the mother of his children.

There is no just excuse for abuse. There's no excuse for the Nevada Boxing Commission failing to impose any punishment or serious consequences on a boxer who inflicts violence against women.

CAMEROTA: The reason they're probably not going to do that is because he brings in so much money.

Gloria, how do you explain why Ray Rice is fired from the Ravens, indefinitely suspended by the NFL for knocking his girlfriend unconscious, as we have all seen, while Floyd Mayweather, as you said, he has a fight planned for this Saturday in which he stands to make personally at least $40 million? Explain that discrepancy?

ALLRED: Well, the answer it is a double standard. The answer is, there is no video here of the violence. Of course, Floyd Mayweather himself suggested in March this week to the press, well, there is no video of violence by who accused him.

But the truth is, that doesn't mean there isn't evidence. After all, he was convicted. He was sentenced for violence against the mother of his children. And there doesn't have to be a video. The majority of cases of domestic violence in this country, there is no video. There are no photos. Yet there are convictions of perpetrators of domestic violence.

That should not be the deciding factor. You know what, profit matters to businesses. I know it matters to the Nevada Boxing Commission. It matters to the NFL. But I think violence against women ought to also matter. It is time for the Nevada Boxing Commission to step up to the plate. This is just outrageous.

CAMEROTA: You have mentioned that he did feel qualified for some reason to weigh in on the Ray Rice situation this week. Let's play for our listeners what he told the reporter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FLOYD MAYWEATHER, BOXER: Thanks a lot. Worst things, they're going into other people any household also. And they just don't -- they don't have -- they just -- they just don't -- it is just not caught on video.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: He is basically saying there is many worse things than what we saw in that elevator between Ray Rice and his then fiancee.

What does your client want to see happen here?

ALLRED: She alleged quite a few things in lengthy lawsuits, assault, intentional infliction of emotional distress, false imprisonment, battery, all kind of things. And it's very, very serious what she has alleged.

She had a seven-year relationship with Mr. Mayweather Jr. And, you know, no man should -- should ever have to be accused of assaulting the woman that he says he loves and that loves him clearly. But this is what our lawsuit alleges. And we feel that that, yes, we are going to proceed. We're going to go vigorously prosecute this lawsuit.

I might add that she and I are going to a domestic violence fund- raiser on Saturday night here in Los Angeles to support other survivors of domestic violence. We are going to be there. He can fight his fight. But we are going to be fighting against domestic violence.

CAMEROTA: Gloria Allred, thank so much for bringing this story to our attention. We will follow it.

ALLRED: OK. Thank you. Bye-bye.

CAMEROTA: You know what?

Now I want to bring in Beverly Gooden. She is the creator of this hashtag called #WhyIStayed. It's on Twitter and it has sparked a heated digital conversation about domestic violence.

Beverly, thanks for being here.

BEVERLY GOODEN, CREATOR OF #WHYISTAYED: Thank you for having me.

CAMEROTA: You say that when you hear people in the media say of Janay Rice or Shantel Jackson, who were just talking about, why don't they just leave, it drives you crazy. Why? What is wrong with that advice?

GOODEN: Yes, because it puts the blame on the victim, as opposed to the person who victimized.

I stayed in a marriage far too long. But I stayed. I had my reasons for staying. I started the hashtag as a response to all of the people who immediately out of the gate said, why did she stay? Why didn't she leave?

As opposed to, why did he hit her? What was his reason for doing this? Why is he behaving this way? It's not fair to ask her that question at all. She may have financial reasons for staying, emotional reasons for staying, any reason for staying. And so that's why I started the hashtag was to really call attention to the fact that there are multiple reasons why someone who is an abusive relationship might stay.

But the pressure isn't on them to explain why they stayed. The pressure is on the abuser to explain why he abused.

CAMEROTA: That's a great point. You put out probably a dozen at least of these -- of your tweets with the hashtag #WhyIStayed.

I want to read a couple of them for our viewers. The first one, you say, "All these folks trashing women for staying in abusive situations have no clue what happens the moment you reach for a door handle."

What does happen?

GOODEN: Yes. There is fear there. Sometimes, you're stopped by the person who is abusing you.

Any time someone tries to leave someone who has exerted any type of control over them, that person is not happy about it. You know, they're not like, sure, walk out of the door. They're going to fight against you. They're going to beg you to stay. They're going to be sweet. They're going to romance you to try to get you to stay. There is all types of thing that happen.

When I tried to leave the first time, I definitely felt fear. I was afraid. I was scared. The fear was paralyzing enough to make me not want to even try. So, people are going through this every day. There is this fear. CAMEROTA: So how did you get out? For the people, you know, there

are statistics that show one out of every four women -- and there are some men who are victimized as well, we should mention.

GOODEN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: But it's a huge number that are physically abused. They want to hear from you. How did you get out?

GOODEN: I had a plan. I started to go on to the domestic violence Web sites. One of the first thing they said is that the best way to escape is have a plan. And plans take time. It took me about two months to actually get out of that marriage.

But one of the things that they told us to do was have a bag and in that bag to have clothing and toiletries and things that you need, so in the case that you are in the situation and you have to just run, you have to escape, you can grab the bag, and it has the clothing in it, the toiletries, and, you know, the deodorant, and soap, and things that you need. You can get that and run out.

That was one of the first things I did. I saved grocery money that he would give me. He was the financial provider. Or gas money. Just like a few dollars here and there to save up enough to actually have something so I could get out.

It took a while. That's the whole purpose of the hashtag is to show that although it looks like there is inaction, there may actually be action. Sometimes, it takes time. For me, it took time.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: That is such a great message. Have of a plan. Get ready. Take your time. And then get out when you can.

Beverly Gooden, thanks so much for telling us your personal story. We really appreciate it.

GOODEN: Thank you for having me.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

Next, Tavis Smiley will weigh in on lots of developments with Rice and what is going on in Ferguson, Missouri, and believe it or not how he feels about "Dancing With the Stars."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: From the Ray Rice case to the death of Michael Brown, America is struggling with questions about race right now. And who better to talk to about all of this than Tavis Smiley. His latest book is called "The Death of a King: The Real Story of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s Final Year." Tavis Smiley joins me now. Pleasure.

TAVIS SMILEY, AUTHOR, "THE DEATH OF A KING": Good to see you, Don.

LEMON: Good to see you.

SMILEY: Thank you for having me on.

LEMON: Can we talk about some of the events? First, I want to start with Ray Rice, because the owner of the Ravens spoke out last night. Here's what he said, and then I want you to respond.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE BISCIOTTI, OWNER, BALTIMORE RAVENS: ... have a tendency to hear what we want to hear and see what we want to see. I was picturing a -- I was picturing her, wailing on him and him smacking her, and maybe her head was this far from the wall and, with her inebriation, dropped. So why did I conclude all that? Because I wanted to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Does it matter. Are people making too many excuses for Ray Rice?

SMILEY: There are a lot of excuses being made all the way around. This is a tragic situation any way you look at it. And I'm concerned about the dignity and the humanity of both of them. And how we protect that to try to save their marriage.

But at the end of the day, when you are caught on tape doing what Ray Rice did, there's a price that has to be paid. And Ray has to pay a price for that.

Roger Goodell, I think, might end up paying a price for that. I don't see how he survives this, long-term. I could be wrong about that, but I don't see how he survives.

LEMON: I wrote an editorial. And listen, as you say, there's no excuse, really, for what he did, right? And obviously, anyone can be forgiven if they -- you know, if they choose to do the right thing. But I wrote a column saying is Roger Goodell doing more damage now to the NFL than even Ray Rice by his reaction to the situation?

SMILEY: I wouldn't argue that. I wouldn't argue that. Because this was mishandled. And if it turns out -- we don't know at this hour, but if it turns out that this A.P. story -- it's an A.P. story, so we'd like to believe that it's factually correct here.

LEMON: if the story is true...

SMILEY: If the story is true that the NFL had this tape in its possession three months ago, that's damning. Not only is it damning evidence; it's a damning indictment. And that's why I think Roger Goodell might not survive.

LEMON: Let's get to the race aspect of it. Did you read "The Washington Post" yesterday?

He talks about -- the writer talks about comparing the excuses being made by black men to the ones that are being made about Darren Wilson. He says, "When we are beaten, slain, and otherwise persecuted, our sisters, our mothers, and our women stand for us with nearly unilateral, unwavering support. They march for us. They cry out our names and demand justice. They support us in our moments of quiet fear when we shed the bitter tears of self-doubt and fatigue. Why aren't we doing the same thing?"

What do you make of that, of race in this case? Do you think too many black men are making excuses for Ray Rice, Ray Rice's behavior?

SMILEY: I have not talked to a single African-American man who has made any excuse for Ray Rice. That may be the case in certain quarters. I have not had that experience. Because the men who I associate with, Don Lemon included, understand what happened here is unacceptable.

And we also understand as black men, while this is not the way it ought to be, we are always painted with a broad brush. And as goes one of us, so goes all of us.

LEMON: Let's talk about this book. I want to get to this. You said that America's -- you call Dr. King America's greatest democratic public intellectual.

SMILEY: Small "D" democratic.

LEMON: Right.

SMILEY: Not the big "D." I think he is. I think he's the greatest American this country has ever produced. I think history will regard him as our greatest democratic public intellectual, because he ends up changing this country.

And at one point, J. Edgar Hoover had him listed as the most dangerous man in America. And the only weapon he ever used, Don, was ideas and love. But that made him the most dangerous man in this country.

The introduction of the book lays out why this book is so important to me. I'm about to turn 50. And I wouldn't have made it to 50 if I couldn't navigate myself past 12.

At the age of 12, I was in the hospital for two weeks, having been brutally beaten. As a 12-year-old, I couldn't understand why this had happened to me. I get introduced to Dr. King through audiotape. And I hear the love in his voice and the hope in his soul while he's talking to a nation about the power of love and forgiveness and how hate is not an option and love is the only thing that can turn an enemy into a friend. He's talking to a country, but he might as well have been talking to a 12-year-old. He saves my life at 12. My whole life is dedicated to trying to make the world safe for his legacy.

LEMON: He was a mentor that you didn't know.

SMILEY: He's dead, but he saves my life. He's my mentor in absentia.

LEMON: I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about Ferguson. I asked Pharrell, and he said, "This is going to have repercussions. It's not over." Right? He said, "This is going to have repercussions for years to come."

There's some new video out there that, you know, supposedly is a bombshell, and it shows two white construction workers or contractors, moments after the shooting, saying -- supposedly saying, "He had his hands up," what have you. This is being deemed, as I said, something that is ground-breaking.

But there were witnesses who were before, who were black, and it appears that more credence, from some people, is being put on the white contractors than on the black eyewitnesses.

SMILEY: It underscores that Martin King was right about what he called the triple threat almost 50 years ago.

LEMON: Do you agree with that?

SMILEY: Do I agree with what?

LEMON: Do you agree with that more credence is being put?

SMILEY: We've known for years. We say in our community, you know the old adage. Tell everybody. We say it all the time in black America. Too many believe that the white man's ice is colder. That's just another way of saying that if he's white he gets a lot more respect, he gets a lot more props, he gets a lot more -- you know, if it's white. So that's an old story inside of black America.

But Martin made this point almost 50 years ago. He said what's threating our very democracy is what he called the triple threat of racism, poverty, and militarism. What we saw in Ferguson was racism, poverty and militarism. And that's a burden that all of us in this country bear. And we've got to get serious about that if we want to save our very democracy.

LEMON: Are you going through a mid-life crisis?

SMILEY: I am not. Why do you ask?

LEMON: Because you're going to put on, don some tight clothing, and very little of it, and you're going to be on "Dancing with the Stars."

SMILEY: No. There will be no tight clothing. There will be no twerking. There will be nothing glittery. The shirt will not come off.

LEMON: So why should we watch, then, Tavis?

SMILEY: Because I want you to see how good my foxtrot is.

LEMON: I was going to say, what's your move? You must have a signature move.

SMILEY: Well, the first -- the first answer is the foxtrot. People ask me all the time, can you dance? I say, "You know what? If you know the show, 'can you dance' is an irrelevant question. The question is can you learn? Can you listen? Can you get -- can you get the steps right? That remains to be seen. But I think -- I think I've got as good a chance, as good a shot as anybody else."

LEMON: OK. So if you win will you come back?

SMILEY: If I win I will certainly come back. If I lose, don't call me.

LEMON: Come on! Tavis Smiley.

SMILEY: I'm a sore loser. If I lose, don't call me.

LEMON: The book is called "Death of a King: The Real Story of Dr. Martin Luther King's Jr. -- Martin Luther King Jr.'s Final Year."

SMILEY: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you, sir. Appreciate it.

SMILEY: If I lose I'm going to be pouting somewhere. Don't call me.

LEMON: We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: I want to show you a live look at Lower Manhattan right now. Tonight, on the anniversary of 9/11, these Twin Towers of light shine up into the night sky from the World Trade Center. And a ceremony, honoring the victims was held at the site earlier today. It's still so emotional to hear all of those names read out by their loved ones.

Meanwhile, the fight against ISIS grows. A U.S. official tells CNN that the Pentagon has begun surveillance flights over Syria in an effort to gather intelligence before any possible air strikes.

Let's talk about the president's strategy with Congressman Brad Sherman. He's a California Democrat and member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. And Congressman Trent Franks. He's an Arizona Republican on the Armed Services Committee. Gentlemen, thanks so much for being here.

REP. TRENT FRANKS (R-AZ), HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Happy to be here.

CAMEROTA: Congressman Franks, let me start with you. The president laid out, in his speech to the country, a four-pronged approach to destroying ISIS. He said more air strikes in Iraq and Syria; support for local fighters on the ground; cut off funding of ISIS; and provide more humanitarian aid to innocent civilians. Do you agree with his strategy?

FRANKS: Well, you know, the president said many things that we shouldn't do that I think was a mistake. But the things that he said we should do, ironically, were very much in keeping with the Bush Doctrine. And I find it incredible, because you know, George Bush warned that, if we left Iraq before our commanders said we were ready, that we would see horrific killings on a mass scale. And that we would have to return to Iraq with troops at some point, perhaps to face an enemy that was even more dangerous.

And I really believe that Barack Obama owes George Bush an apology. Along with the men and women who fought in Iraq and watched their blood-bought gains evaporate as the president of the United States stood idly by with a golf club in his hand.

CAMEROTA: And will you support his plan now for air strikes?

FRANKS: I do support his plan for air strikes, yes.

CAMEROTA: Congressman Sherman, what are -- what are your thoughts on the president's plan?

REP. BRAD SHERMAN (D-CA), FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE: Well, first in response to how we got here. It was the last administration that installed Maliki in office. And this is a man who, ruling from Baghdad, created the ground in which ISIS grew.

Maliki expelled us from Iraq. Maliki would not negotiate an agreement to keep our forces in limited numbers in Iraq, past -- I believe it was 2011. And George Bush couldn't negotiate that deal with Maliki, and George Bush had installed him. To blame the president for not being able to deal with the problem that had been installed in Baghdad, it -- any way that's ancient history.

I support the idea of using our air power to degrade and confine ISIS. But what I don't want to see are thousands of American troops on the ground. Unfortunately, with just air power, we will not be able to completely obliterate ISIS any time soon.

CAMEROTA: Uh-huh. I want to play for you an interesting moment in Saudi Arabia today, where Secretary of State Kerry was asked if, in fact, the U.S. is now at war with ISIS. Here's what he said to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: I think that's the wrong terminology. What we are doing is engaging in a very significant counterterrorism operation. And it's going to go on for some period of time. If somebody wants to think about it as being a war with ISIL, they can do so, but the fact is it's a major counterterrorism operation that will have many different moving parts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Congressman Franks, why not call it a war?

FRANKS: Well, we should. ISIS certainly believes it's a war. Mr. Kerry also said that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam, which would come to a tremendous surprise to ISIS.

This president can't seem to even call terrorism "terrorism." He called terrorism at Fort Hood "workplace violence." He called terrorism across the world "overseas contingencies." I mean, next he'll be calling drug dealers "unlicensed pharmacists." We cannot engage an enemy that we can't understand or even say what

they are on a strategic level. And I think that finally this president is beginning to understand how dangerous this enemy is. Unfortunately, how many beheadings, and crucifixions, and rapes, and torture, and murder did it take before he finally got a clue?

CAMEROTA: Congressman Sherman, are we at war?

SHERMAN: I think we're at war. I think we ought to follow the War Powers Act and have separate votes in Congress on whether we should arm and train the Syrian rebels; whether we should authorize air strikes against ISIS; and whether we should authorize -- and I wouldn't be for this -- ground operations against ISIS.

But Congress ought to vote on this and not have the president say, well, since in 2001, 13 years ago today, it caused us just a couple weeks thereafter to get, to pass an authorization to go after al Qaeda. ISIS is not al Qaeda, and we ought to have a separate vote.

CAMEROTA: Gentlemen, thank you. We've run out of time, but thanks for taking the time to give us your perspective tonight.

SHERMAN: Thank you.

FRANKS: Glad to be here.

CAMEROTA: All right. We have not heard many voices against the president's plan to destroy ISIS by using air strikes. But we're about to talk to one vocal opponent. What happens when we put her together with a terrorism analyst? We'll find out next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: ISIS is getting bigger. The CIA now estimates that the number of ISIS fighters in Iraq and Syria could be as high as 31,500. That's nearly triple the original estimate. So can a combination of air strikes and local ground forces destroy ISIS?

Sally Kohn doesn't think so. She's a CNN political commentator who opposes President Obama's plan to strike ISIS. Also with us is Paul Cruickshank, CNN terrorism analyst and co-author of "Agent Storm: My Life Inside al Qaeda and the CIA," which will be featured in a CNN documentary airing Tuesday, September 16 at 9 p.m. Thanks so much for being here, guys.

Sally, you think that U.S. air strikes may only serve to strengthen ISIS. So make your case.

SALLY KOHN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look. We don't have to believe me on this one. We can believe our national intelligence estimates and our intelligence community. And also your own common sense, right?

You know, most people don't just wake up -- yes, some terrorists are just born crazy, but most don't just wake up deciding to hate America. Something happens to make them hate America. And our intelligence community has said that the original Iraq war, bombing and destroying Iraq, made more people hate America, created more terrorists.

And in this case, the same thing. Look, you can't bomb an ideology. But what bombing does do is make more people drawn to that ideology. Arguably, that's why ISIS is goading us into these actions in the first place.

CAMEROTA: Paul, does Sally have a point?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Sally has many good points. But ISIS is a group with a viscerally anti-western, anti-American ideology. It has not plotted any terrorist plots against the west yet. It's not even explicitly threatened attacks against the west. But it is potentially a long-term threat to the west.

It has rather frightening capability. It has up to 1,000 western recruits in its ranks; tens of millions of dollars; training camps on a scale last seen in Taliban-run Afghanistan; and bomb makers who can give these westerners training. And I think from a European, American perspective, it's sort of intolerable having this growing Islamic state on the southern shores of the Mediterranean, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Sally, here's where you're going to lose some people, because you made great points. But here's where you're going to lose people. You think that the U.S. should pursue a policy of diplomacy and politics with ISIS. But of course, this is a group that beheads people and crucifies people and that's bent on annihilation. So how can kid gloves work?

KOHN: Whoa, hang on. I don't think that strong diplomatic solutions and encouraging other countries to step up, cutting off financial ties, stop flooding the area with American weapons that keep ending up in their hands. That's not kid gloves at all, No. 1.

No. 2, look, this is not to say that they are not evil, awful and atrocious. There is something that was just mentioned that's really critical. And Americans who are listening to Republicans, even listening to the president, certainly listening to the news might be missing this point.

There is no direct threat that is has made against Americans. The intelligence community has been clear about that. And yet there's this case being made, which was just repeated, that the possibility of a future threat is enough to justify yet again spending American energy, treasure, and potentially lives, on an errand that, by the way, might not event prevent a threat that might not exist but might make everything worse by just enflaming tensions.

CAMEROTA: Good point, Sally. Paul, what about this, that this will be a military action of prevention, not an imminent threat?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, that's right, to a large degree. And these air strikes are going to have to erode their safe haven, take out some of their senior leadership; take out their training camps; diminish their capability to plot terrorist attacks against the West.

But of course, by launching these strikes now and intensifying, it almost makes it more likely that, in the short term, ISIS is going to retaliate, Alisyn.

KOHN: There we go. So what -- at what cost, right? At what cost?

CAMEROTA: Sally...

KOHN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: I'm going to interrupt you, and I'm going to direct everyone to CNN.com to read your column on all of this. Great to see you. Paul, Sally, thanks so much.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: That's going to do it for me tonight. Thanks so much for watching. "AC 360" starts right now.