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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

Interview with New Jersey Senator Robert Menendez; Fighting ISIS; Tracking Down American ISIS Fighters; Ebola Outbreak: No End in Sight

Aired September 5, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: This just in: A plane with Americans on board was forced to land in Iran. The details just ahead.

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

Also, in the world lead, President Obama trying to move beyond what critics call muddled messaging on ISIS with aggressive parting remarks at the NATO summit. He claims he has a team of countries ready to back him, but the question remains, what strategy would they be back?

Also, a third American infected with Ebola is now back on U.S. soil. But why isn't he going to receive the same experimental serum that likely saved the lives of the other two?

And our national lead, it is spreading at 800 feet per day. So the good news is, at 800 feet per day, you can outrun it, but the bad news is your house can't, molten lava smothering everything in its path and heading for a neighborhood in the U.S.

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Jake Tapper.

We are going to begin today with some breaking news in our world lead. A chartered plane carrying American military contractors has been forced to land in Tehran, Iran.

Let's get right to our global affairs correspondent, Elise Labott, at the State Department.

Elise, what can you tell us?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Jake, this as you said was a contracted plane. It had American military contractors, but also from other coalition countries. I understand there were some Canadians board. And they were flying to Dubai.

The Iranians contacted the pilots to say this is an out-of-date flight plan. And it ordered it to return back to Afghanistan. But the pilot said they didn't have enough fuel. The Iranians said, well, then land, or you will be intercepted. We understand it was escorted down by Iranian fighter jets.

Officials tell us that they're trying to get clearance to leave, but we understand that that flight is still on the ground in Bandar Abbas, Iran -- Jake. TAPPER: All right, Elise Labott, thank you so much. We're going to

stay on top of that story. As new developments come, we will share them with you as soon as we get them.

Turning now to our other world news lead, after enduring withering criticism that he's been not forceful enough when it comes to confronting ISIS, President Obama delivered closing remarks at the NATO summit, seemingly designed to end any questions about his resolve to wipe the terrorist group out.

ISIS, of course, the Islamist group that has taken over chunks of Iraq and Syria, they have already beheaded two innocent Americans, among their many, many atrocities. Now more than a week after the president admitted to not having a strategy yet to deal with ISIS in Syria and two days after causing a flap with his remark about making ISIS a manageable problem, he now says he's got countries lining up to help take ISIS out.

Our senior White House correspondent, Jim Acosta, joins us from the site of the NATO summit in the Wales.

Jim, it seems like the president knew this was a chance, a good chance to articulate something forceful after several days of what seemed to be conflicting signals.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Jake, no question, it was a different President Obama at the close of this NATO summit in Wales. His message on ISIS was tougher, and he did predict, as you mentioned, that he will have a coalition to defeat the terror network.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA (voice-over): For President Obama, this time, there were no mixed messages.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to achieve our goal. We are going to degrade and ultimately defeat ISIL, the same way that we have gone after al Qaeda.

ACOSTA: At a news conference at the end of a crucial NATO summit, the president insisted he now has a plan for taking out ISIS. Gone was any reference of simply reducing the ISIS threat...

OBAMA: To the point where it is a manageable problem.

ACOSTA: ... as he had put it just days earlier. Instead:

OBAMA: You can't contain an organization that is running roughshod through that much territory, causing that much havoc, displacing that many people, killing that many innocents, enslaving that many women. The goal has to be to dismantle them.

ACOSTA: The Obama administration is now counting 10 countries as part of an international anti-ISIS coalition. Arab partners, the president is confident, will follow. As Secretary of State John Kerry told one NATO session, "Contrary to what you sort of heard in the politics of our country, the president is totally committed. There is a strategy that is clear."

On Russian aggression in Ukraine, NATO flexed some alliance muscle.

ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN, NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL: All for one, one for all.

ACOSTA: NATO formally unveiled a new rapid response unit designed to meet Russian threats to Eastern Europe, pledged nonlethal military aid and training for Ukraine's defense forces and started plans to assist Georgia and Moldova, right on Russia's doorstep.

DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Russia is ripping the rule book with its annexation of Crimea and its troops on sovereign oil in Ukraine.

ACOSTA: Russia's Foreign Ministry tweeted the statements threaten the peace process in Ukraine. But that didn't stop a cease-fire deal the Ukrainian president announced at the summit.

PETRO POROSHENKO, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Now it is very important that it -- this cease-fire last long and during the cease-fire, we continue the political dialogue.

QUESTION: Can you trust Vladimir Putin?

ACOSTA: President Obama was hardly convinced Moscow would allow the cease-fire to hold.

OBAMA: Obviously, we are hopeful, but based on past experience also skeptical. So it has to be tested.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: Now, Secretary of State John Kerry and other top administration officials will be heading to the Middle East in the coming days to line up some Arab partners for an anti-ISIS mission.

And both Secretary Kerry and the president reiterated today still no boots on the ground as part of a broader anti-ISIS effort -- Jake.

TAPPER: Jim Acosta, thank you so much.

Let's bring in Senator Bob Menendez, Democrat from New Jersey and chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator, thanks so much for joining us, as always.

I want to get your reaction to President Obama, who earlier today spoking about a core coalition formed on the sidelines of the NATO summit, he said, that would take on ISIS. What would you expect other countries to contribute?

SEN. ROBERT MENENDEZ (D), NEW JERSEY: Well, Jake, I applaud the president putting together a coalition on the sidelines of the NATO summit. I think a coalition is necessary to fight ISIS. And it would seem to

me that that coalition needs to bring to bear the same resources we have brought to bear so far, both in airpower, as well as other military, you know, equipment and abilities.

And so, if you want to destroy ISIL, you're going to have to do it in a comprehensive way. I hope that they will be part of drying up ISIL's money. They're probably the best funded terrorist organization in the world right now. That's critically important. And so a comprehensive approach to, you know, ultimately make sure that ISIL cannot be a threat to the United States or to the West.

TAPPER: We still haven't heard, of course, not yet anyway, a comprehensive strategy from the president to take on the threat. Do you think the members of the Obama administration, Secretary of State Kerry, Defense Secretary Hagel, others, should testify before your committee, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, to talk about the strategy? And what would you want to hear from them in order to authorize continued action against ISIS in Iraq and/or strikes on ISIS in Syria?

MENENDEZ: Well, Jake, we have already called for before the latest developments a hearing in the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in the second week of this month, when we return.

And we have a commitment from Secretary Kerry. I do hope that Secretary Hagel will join us, because understanding the military dimensions of such a strategy is incredibly important, in addition to the political and diplomatic efforts.

I think members are going to want to hear exactly how are we going to go about degrading and ultimately defeating ISIS and what will that entail and who will join us? What will they do in the process, and how do you envision this campaign taking place? Because, if it's obviously more than what we have done in Iraq to date, as it relates to protecting embassy personnel and other U.S. personnel, then it may very well need the authorization for the use of force.

And, of course, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee has jurisdiction over that issue, as we did when we gave authorization to the use of force a year ago to the president, when Syria was using chemical weapons against its people.

TAPPER: Your fellow Democratic Senator Bill Nelson has a bill that would give the president -- quote -- "clear authority to order U.S. airstrikes against ISIS in Syria."

Doesn't that legislation bypass the authority of your committee?

MENENDEZ: Well, any member can introduce their view of what that authorization for use of force should mean. Ultimately, it would have to come to the committee for its consideration.

TAPPER: Let's turn to Ukraine.

You have clearly and decisively used the worth invasion to describe the Russian troops entering the country, but the Obama administration is reluctant to use that word. Why do you use it, and why do you think others refrain from using it?

MENENDEZ: Well, having just come back two days ago from Ukraine, I can tell you that, if you have thousands of Russian soldiers, columns of tanks, surface-to-surface missile, armed artillery, and a host of other sophisticated weaponry crossing from the Russia border into Ukrainian territory and fighting against Ukrainian troops, I don't know what anybody else calls it or what euphemism they want to use.

To me, that's an invasion of one country against another sovereign country in a totally unprovoked way. And so I use it because I think it's important for Europe and for the United States to understand that this is a watershed moment and that we have to decide, are we going to work to uphold the international order that Russia has so clearly violated, an international order that says you just don't simply by force invade another country, take territory without serious consequences to those actions?

Otherwise, the global message we send is going to be really consequential.

TAPPER: And you have called for the U.S. to provide lethal aid, not just nonlethal aid, to the Ukrainian army in that goal.

Senator Robert Menendez, Democrat of New Jersey, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, thank you so much.

MENENDEZ: Thank you.

TAPPER: Let's turn back now to that breaking news out of Iran, a charter plane with Americans on board flying from Afghanistan forced to land in Tehran by the Iranian air force.

A senior administration official tells CNN that a bureaucratic issue with the flight plan led to this incident. "We expect this to be resolved soon," the senior administration official says.

We will continue to follow the story for you.

Coming up: ISIS has said it wants to drown all Americans in blood. So what about that message is so attractive to Americans who have joined their cause?

And shrewd move or evasive tactic? New Jersey Governor Chris Christie refusing to state his position on a hugely divisive issue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

More now on our world lead, the threat from the terrorist group ISIS.

He's an American citizen. He grew up in the suburbs of Boston. He earned a computer science degree from the University of Massachusetts. He is also considered one of the most dangerous terrorists in the world and is possibly the man behind the savvy social media campaign for the terrorist group ISIS.

Ahmad Abousamra has been on the radar of federal authorities for years. He's accused of training with al Qaeda to kill Americans. A source says he heads the ISIS social media machine. That includes those disturbing propaganda videos sent out over Twitter and YouTube.

Abousamra is one of many suspected American ISIS fighters. It is unclear how many Americans have joined up with the savage group.

CNN justice correspondent Pamela Brown is here with more.

Pamela, sorting out who's who seems to come with some major challenges.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's very difficult, Jake. In fact, I was just on the phone with a law enforcement official who told me that one of the big fears is that there's still a lot we don't know. It's an issue that's keeping officials buzzing 24/7. Sources tell CNN, U.S. officials are right now closely monitoring Americans who have returned to the U.S. after fighting in Iraq and Syria.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MONER ABU-SALHA: We are coming for you, mark my words.

BROWN (voice-over): A 22-year-old from Florida on the jihadi mission in Syria --

ABU-SALHA: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

BROWN: -- drives a truck full of explosives into a group of soldiers last May.

That was Abu-Salha's second time in Syria.

ABU-SALHA: When I went back can to Florida, I was being watched by the FBI.

BROWN: That was his second time in Syria. Sources tell CNN intelligence officials didn't even know had he gone back and forth between the U.S. and Syria.

ABU-SALHA: Grab from hair, in my forehead, and take me to mujahadin.

BROWN: His case shows how frighteningly easy it is for an American jihadist to get to the frontlines in Syria and Iraq undetected. Fighters can cover their tracks by first flying from the U.S. to Europe, say, Belgium then crossing borders into another European country like France before flying into Turkey, the gateway into Syria where the jihadist easily disappears into a black hole.

PHILLIP MUDD, FORMER CIA ANALYST: You tell me as a former CIA guy if you're still in the chair that you wouldn't worry about 100 or 200 Americans in Syria who have good documents where we might not know that they've crossed from Turkey into Syria, we might not know they've joined ISIS.

BROWN: So far, at least two Americans have died fighting along ISIS, according to U.S. officials, including Douglas McCain two weeks ago. An intelligence source tells CNN they have some identifiable information on every American they know of in Syria and Iraq. But experts say, in some cases, there's not enough intel to prevent a jihadist from coming back to the U.S.

On Thursday, Attorney General Eric Holder tried to tamp down concerns.

(on camera): How confident are you that the U.S. knows the identities of the Americans who have made it over there and those who have come back to the U.S.?

ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think we have a pretty good handle on who is there and also a pretty good handle on who potentially might want to go there. We have brought a number of prosecutions. We have a number of ongoing investigations in that regard.

BROWN (voice-over): Officials say it can be very challenging to arrest American jihadists who have returned to the U.S.

MUDD: You're always balancing let me not move too fast because I want to map the conspiracy, let me not move too slowly because this guy's a ticking time bomb.

BROWN: And it's actually the smaller, less sophisticated attacks by returning jihadists that keep U.S. intelligence officials on edge.

MUDD: It's the ones you don't know who are going to show up on the radar and explode a bomb in someplace like New York or Boston. You -- if you're 98 percent confident you have everyone, it's the 2 percent that I'd be sitting there and worried about. How do we find the ones we don't know?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And part of it also makes this so challenging is that not everyone who goes over to Turkey and into Syria goes to fight with terrorist groups. Some of them have family over there and want to join humanitarian or aid groups. And also, there's a pretty high bar to put someone on a no-fly list.

So, it's certainly not a black and white issue, Jake. It's complex.

TAPPER: And terrifying.

Pamela Brown, thank you so much.

Today, President Obama laid out a partial playbook for weakening is and diminishing the group's global appeal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You systematically degrade their capabilities. You narrow their scope of action. You slowly shrink the space the territory that they may control.

You take out their leadership. And over time, they are not able to conduct the same kinds of terrorist attacks as they once could.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: But even if the U.S. or its allies manage to take out a top terrorist leader, isn't there just always someone in line ready and willing to step in and pick up where the previous mastermind left off?

Let's discuss that now with Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, he's the director of the Center for the Study of Terrorist Radicalization.

Daveed, let's get a better idea who the enemy is. Let's start with Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, the head of ISIS. What exactly do we knew about him? He was at one point in U.S. custody in Iraq, right?

DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS, DIR., CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF TERRORIST RADICALIZATION: That's right. He was in the Bucca prison, born in 1971. He is believed to have received his PhD in Islamic studies in Baghdad. He was part of the insurgency -- originally, he's part of the small insurgent organization before joining ISIS's predecessor. It's gone through a number of different names.

But his insurgent group folded into it. He joined its Sharia committee before being elevated in rank and took over leadership of ISIS in 2010. He had to rebuild the organization after it had been devastated by the surge of U.S. forces and the awakening.

TAPPER: I heard somebody on National Public Radio this morning discussing the number two. His name is Abu Umar al-Shishani, a Chechen native. This expert said and I know your reporting is not necessarily the same. This expert said that when he was in Chechnya, he had been trained by the United States in counter-terrorism.

What can you tell us about him?

GARTENSTEIN-ROSS: Well, he's Chechen in origin, but he was actually born in Georgia and he fought for the Georgian military. He was involved in 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia. It's certainly possible that he got U.S. training at some point. I couldn't substantiate that.

But he was part of that military. Ultimately, he had some health problems, left and then cropped up in some major battles in Syria and now in Iraq.

It's not clear that he's quite as extreme as Baghdadi. I mean, Baghdadi has been encouraging forces to undertake great deal of atrocities and Shishani is not known to necessarily fall into that extraordinarily extreme camp.

TAPPER: And lastly, tell us about the guy from al-Shabaab that the Pentagon just today confirmed the U.S. and allies did kill earlier this week. Who was he? And what happens next with al-Shabaab? GARTENSTEIN-ROSS: Godane was also known as Abu Zubair, had been a very contentious leader within al Shabaab. There were a number of different squabbles within the organization. For example, one prominent was against another Shabaab leader named (INAUDIBLE).

But Godane had basically used Shabaab's internal intelligence basically as his own private secret police. And very recently, even late August, you had a high level leader within publicly accusing him of being a Western intelligence agent.

Now, when he was in Somalia for this meeting, it was a meeting that was looking specifically at the impact of an African Union offensive which was trying to take back territory in southern Somalia from Shabaab. There were other top leaders around him. It's not clear who all died, but it could be -- both ISIS and Shabaab are more prone to being fractured by losing leadership.

TAPPER: All right. Daveed, thank you so much. Really appreciate your expertise.

Coming up next on THE LEAD, it is the deadliest Ebola outbreak on record and it shows no sign of slowing down. A closer look right now at what's fueling the spread of the virus as another American patient with it comes home for treatment.

Plus, he's the Kanye West of football. No one sings Richard Sherman's praises more than Richard Sherman. But months after the epic post- game rant that put him in the national spotlight, is the Seattle star finally turning a page?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

In other unsettling world news, there is no apparent end in sight for the worst Ebola outbreak in history. The World Health Organization today putting the death toll in West Africa at more than 2,000.

Here at home another infected American with Ebola, Dr. Rick Sacra, is back in the U.S. for treatment. He's said to be in stable condition in the Nebraska Medical Center's bio containment unit. He was not working directly with Ebola patients. It is still unclear how he contracted the disease.

Joining me now from Atlanta, Dr. Beth Bell. She's an infectious disease director at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Dr. Bell, thanks for joining us.

We've been told not to worry about Americans being infected who are now back here in the U.S. but the two previous patients, we now how they were infected working with Ebola patients. We don't know how this third patient, this third doctor was infected.

Shouldn't we be worried about him being here, given that there is this is mystery about him? DR. BETH BELL, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: Well, I'm

not sure that I would call it exactly a in is industry. You're right, right now, we don't know the exactly how he got infected, but that doesn't mean that the way he got infected is anything unusual. May just be that we need to do a little bit more investigating to find out exactly the cause.

You know, we really -- the situation in Africa, in West Africa, is very serious. It's very dire. And it can be very frightening for people.

But how Ebola is transmitted is not mysterious. We know how Ebola is transmitted. The way we're seeing cases, people becoming infected in Africa is primarily in two different settings, in households in close contact with people that have Ebola and handling corpses and in health care facilities where health care workers are not using appropriate infection control. So, we do know how Ebola is spread.