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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

McDonnell Found Guilty In Influence Peddling Case; Struggle To Define U.S. Mission Against ISIS; Possible Ceasefire In Ukraine; Interview with John McCain

Aired September 4, 2014 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Larry, sentencing is January 6th. Very quickly, you agree?

LARRY SABATO, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR POLITICS, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: I think he's about right. You know, clearly when you get convicted of this many counts and felonies, I don't see how you don't get jail time. So I would expect that for Bob McDonnell.

Remember as we all said, he threw his wife under the bus during this trial and it was a London double-decker. Well, maybe in this case, he'll be able to step up to the plate, take the punishment and let her go free.

TAPPER: An Icarus-like fall. Larry Sabato, Jeffrey Toobin, thank you both so much. Appreciate it.

Coming up, President Obama and Prime Minister Cameron just joined forces to pen an op-ed how to respond to the threat from ISIS. What is their plan to stop the terrorists? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. In the World Lead, "countries like Britain and America will not be cowed by barbaric killers," a quote from the joint op-ed by President Obama and British Prime Minister David Cameron, released as the two gather with other key world leaders for the NATO Summit in Wales.

They continue their op-ed with, quote, "We will be more forthright in the defense of our values not least because a world of greater freedom is a fundamental part of how we keep our people safe."

The president and prime minister trying to gain support for an international response to ISIS, the terrorist overrunning much of Iraq and Syria, who've already beheaded two Americans and countless others.

But the op-ed was awfully light on strategy. In fact, the president has been very frank about not having a comprehensive strategy at least not yet for now as our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr reports, the U.S. mission is largely defined by a series of what if questions.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Iraqi

government troops and Kurdish Peshmerga fighters use machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades trying to drive ISIS out of one more town in Northern Iraq. It's a ground war, President Obama says, U.S. troops will not be part of.

But U.S. officials say the strategy to degrade and destroy ISIS working with other nations is taking shape.

TONY BLINKEN, DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: There's a division of labor that needs to happen, including focusing on the fighting capacity of ISIL, focusing on its support network, the foreign fighters, the financing, the propaganda, focusing on some of its local supporters.

STARR: A major goal to get Sunnis in northern and western Iraq to cut their ties to ISIS. And this time make it not look solely like a U.S. military operation.

BLINKEN: Even if we use our air power, someone on the ground needs to hold the territory that we freed up.

STARR: Could the next step be killing ISIS leader, Abu Bakr Al- Baghdadi with a targeted airstrike? Al-Baghdadi is believed to be inside Syria. So far outside the scope of U.S. military action. U.S. military and intelligence officials say for now, there are no targeted kill missions. President Obama would have to approve them. Even so, killing Al-Baghdadi won't end ISIS' grip.

DOUGLAS OLLIVANT, NEW AMERICA FOUNDATION: If we remove Abu Al- Baghdadi, there's probably someone who is going to immediately step up and take his place. And we don't know what that next generation leader maybe like.

STARR: The head of the U.S. National Counter-Terrorism Center says at this point, there is no credible information ISIS plans to attack the U.S. homeland.

MATTHEW OLSEN, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL COUNTER TERRORISM CENTER: As formidable as ISIL is as a group, it is not invincible.

STARR: But 350 additional U.S. troops are going to the U.S. embassy in Baghdad out of concern ISIS could try to launch a suicide bomb attack there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: For now, U.S. officials say there is no direct threat to the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, but this now puts more than 1,000 U.S. troops on the ground inside Iraq -- Jake.

TAPPER: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, thank you. Let's bring in Retired U.S. Army Lieutenant Michael Barbero. He served three tours in Iraq. He now works on oil and gas projects in the country. In fact, he just returned from the Kurdistan region this week. General, good to see you. One of the things that President Obama

and Prime Minister Cameron are trying to do is drum up international support. This has been vexing me since the crisis began. What is the problem?

Why is it so difficult to get all these other countries that are obviously going to be facing the thread of ISIS whether directly like Saudi Arabia, Jordan or down the road like Germany, France, why is it so difficult to get them on board?

LT. GENERAL MICHAEL BARBERO, U.S. ARMY (RETIRED): I think it requires a couple components that are absent. First is American leadership, hands on leadership. The region is extremely complex, competing interests. Only the United States can get in there and I mean, work it, not episodic visits to Baghdad or Erbil, but really get in there and work it.

So it requires American leadership, not leadership from the rear, but leadership to form the coalition. The second thing it requires is a clear mission. We've heard everything as it's been reported from destroy to confront in the op-ed with Prime Minister Cameron. What is the mission?

f you're a coalition member, you're not going to sign on for this broad range of obscure options. You want to know how long and what are the ends, ways and means. So this is important. The third thing is, our policy must reflect the reality on the ground.

The op-ed talks about supporting those on the front lines fighting ISIS. Our policy says everything goes through Baghdad. The flights to Kurdistan, humanitarian and military are all landing in Baghdad, being inspected by and delayed by Maliki to great frustration of the Kurds.

TAPPER: You wrote an op-ed in June about the mission and you said, quote, "This action" -- this is about bombing ISIS targets in Iraq, "This action will be relatively ineffective in producing the desired effect seriously degrading the ISIS network.

You can't air strike yourself out of an insurgency and no amount of air strikes will turn the current tactical situation in Iraq and produce decisive effects." So what needs to happen if airstrikes won't be enough?

BARBERO: Well, there's a myth here in town that in Washington that airstrikes, drone strikes, we can solve anything or any problem, and it requires something to dislodge ISIS from the occupied areas. Airstrikes won't do it.

Especially when we announce an airstrikes we're only going to hit here and not going to do this. ISIS is very smart. Their leadership will adapt and they'll move into the cities. They'll hunker down and change the way they move around and go for the targets they think they can get to.

TAPPER: So you think there need to be ground troops, U.S. ground troops?

BARBERO: No, not U.S. ground troops, but this op-ed also talks about enabling those on the frontlines, the Iraqi security forces and the Kurds. We need to do more to train, equip and mentor them. Not take on the fighting for them. The Kurds will fight and are fighting, but they've been clamoring and requesting heavier weapons. They're outgunned and overmatched.

TAPPER: I take your point on the Kurds, but it's not as though the U.S. has not been trying to create a fine efficient Iraqi army for more than a decade now. Obviously at the first sign of trouble, a lot of them ran away from ISIS.

BARBERO: I was part of that effort. I understand it firsthand. We've done this assessment some two months ago of Iraqi security forces. Let's find the goods ones that we can build on, start training them, giving them some equipment. They're not going to be able to do it by themselves.

TAPPER: I assume that there are U.S. Special Operations doing some mission.

BARBERO: I assume so also.

TAPPER: What theoretically should they be doing?

BARBERO: Collecting intel and passing it to the Kurds and to the Iraqis, helping with some targeting, and advising their special operations forces. Both the Kurds and the Iraqis have very competent counter-terrorism forces. We ought to be enabling them as much as we can.

TAPPER: All right, Lieutenant General, thank you so much. Appreciate your views as always.

Coming up, he has called him a KGB colonel who wants to restore the Russian empire. So what does Senator John McCain think of Vladimir Putin's terms for a cease-fire in Ukraine? The senator will join me next from Ukraine.

And the Justice Department investigating the Ferguson Police Department for claims of excessive force that were filed years before we heard the name Michael Brown. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. More world news now, word of a possible cease-fire in Ukraine with leaders from both Russia and Ukraine scheduled to begin peace talks tomorrow. NATO tells Russia to pull out their troops, which is strange because if you ask Vladimir Putin, there are no Russian troops in Ukraine. So after six months of distrust and thousands of lives lost, is this cease-fire deal real?

Joining me now Arizona Senator John McCain. He is in Kiev, Ukraine. Senator, thanks so much for being here. This is your fourth trip to Kiev since protests started roughly a year ago. Now there are talks for a cease-fire. I know you just met with the prime minister and the mayor of Kiev. What is the latest? Does it look like a cease-fire will happen?

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: It really doesn't, Jake, because what Vladimir Putin wants is a frozen situation where he has control of the east and continues his efforts towards a land bridge to Crimea. And there have been hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers killed in the last week.

The hospitals are full. A week or so ago, he moved in militarily with some thousands of Russian troops, armor, other capabilities that including drones, by the way. And the Ukrainians simply cannot -- they're brave and they'll fight and they're not asking for us to fight for them.

But they're just overwhelmed and it's really tragic because we refuse to give intelligence information and weapons to Ukrainians to defend themselves. It's really shameful.

TAPPER: What specifically do you think the United States and other western countries should be providing for the Ukrainians beyond intelligence? What specific weapons?

MCCAIN: Well, as, as I just mentioned armor has poured into Eastern Ukraine. And that requires anti-armor capabilities. We also have to give them some long-term training, Jake. Their military capabilities declined rather significantly over the last several years.

They've literally got volunteers fighting now who obviously are not trained and the Russians are very good at killing. And could I say I also believe that we have to understand that if Vladimir Putin succeeds here.

Takes Eastern Ukraine, a land bridge to Crimea, next is Moldova and next is the Baltic States. And what he has suffered in response to this naked aggression has been minimal.

TAPPER: You've talked -- you've been very critical of the Obama administration and President Obama for not doing enough in terms of isolating Putin and obviously not doing enough in terms of providing lethal aid to the Ukrainians. Isn't the big problem right now though the fact that the Europeans, the Western Europeans aren't -- haven't demonstrated a willingness to put sanctions on Russia with any teeth because their economies are so intertwined? Aren't the leaders of Europe, our allies really the one who's need to be pushed to punish Putin further?

MCCAIN: Yes. They have been minimal in their response. They've talked a lot and done very little. A little bit of good news the French suspended the sale of a couple of warships to the Russians, only suspended. But first of all, we have to lead.

Second of all, we can do sanctions and hope that the Europeans will follow. But right now, we've got to give them some weapons to defend themselves. We've got to give them some intelligence capability. If you give me a second, I'm not making this story up.

After of this thing started, we debated and debated and they decided to send MREs to Ukrainians, but they didn't want to fly them in in America airplanes. I'm not making this up. So they rented Russian -- excuse me, German trucks to bring the MREs in.

Everybody said, if you assist the Ukrainians, it will provoke Vladimir Putin. I think it's pretty obvious what has provoked Vladimir Putin is our total weakness because he feels he has a free hand.

Again, there are hundreds of Ukrainians that are now dead. There are many hundreds, the hospitals are full with these brave young people and they deserve our assistance. And they're not asking for our boots on the ground.

TAPPER: All right. Senator John McCain in Kiev, Ukraine. Thanks so much for joining us.

Coming up, to some they look more like characters from "Call of Duty" than a small city police force. Now that the smoke bombs have cleared, it is the Ferguson cops may have to answer to the feds for some appalling accusations from years ago. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD on this busy news day. I'm Jake Tapper. Now our National Lead, the Justice Department is launching an investigation into the Ferguson, Missouri Police Department, not over the police shooting of Michael Brown that unarmed black teenager whose death sparked weeks of protests and violence and other unrest.

But for all together other accusations of excessive force levied against the department dating back years. According to "The Washington Post," that includes federal lawsuits against a half dozen officers, more than six internal investigations and a disturbing claim that officers hogtied a 12-year-old boy who was stopped by police on his way to the mailbox.

CNN justice correspondent, Pamela Brown, is here now with more. Pamela, this investigation seems fairly broad covering everything from police stops to the treatment of people that they have in custody.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: DOJ officials will be looking at the Ferguson Police Department, Jake, from top to bottom. And Attorney General Eric Holder says he weighed several factors in making this decision.

A history of mistrust of police in Ferguson, review of documented allegations and his own personal visit to Ferguson. Holder defended the timing of this investigation saying it's entirely separate from the Michael Brown shooting investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): As tensions continue to simmer in Ferguson, Missouri --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Expressing our outrage.

BROWN: The Justice Department announces its civil rights division will investigate the Ferguson Police Department from top to bottom.

ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Our investigation will assess the police department's use of force including deadly force. It will analyze stops, searches, and arrests. And it will examine the treatment of individuals detained at Ferguson's city jail. In addition to other potentially discriminatory policing techniques and tactics that have been brought to life.

BROWN: In the nearly four weeks since Officer Darren Wilson shot and killed unarmed Michael Brown, federal investigators will now begin looking at the department's officer training programs and review operational procedures and practices to find out if they violate any federal laws or the constitution.

HOLDER: This investigation will be conducted both rigorously and in a timely manner so we can move forward as expeditiously as possible to restore trust to rebuild understanding and to foster cooperation between law enforcement and community members.

BROWN: Other African-American residents complained Ferguson police have a history of singling them out and using heavy handed tactics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We deserve to have a community that prospers that trusts their public safety officers.

BROWN: A report by Missouri's attorney general conducted before the shooting found Ferguson police were twice as likely to arrest African-Americans during traffic stops as they were whites.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's not about black or white. It's about right.

BROWN: Under Eric Holder, the Justice Department has been much more aggressive about investigating local police and in the past five years, the DOJ has launched 20 investigations into police departments nationwide, more than twice the number compared to the previous five years.

This most recent one comes as the grand jury weighs evidence in the Michael Brown shooting criminal investigation. Whether or not Officer Darren Wilson will face charges will hinge on their decision.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We reached out to the Ferguson Police Department today for a comment and have not heard back. DOJ officials say officials on the ground in Ferguson welcome this investigation and pledge cooperation. And in a statement from Michael Brown's family, it says in part,

"We believe that transparency in law enforcement is the only way to build trust in the community not just in the killing of Michael Brown, but for others who have suffered, as well" -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Pamela Brown, thank you so much. That is it for me. I'm Jake Tapper. I now turn you over to Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM" -- Wolf.