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CNN NEWSROOM

High-Tech Training for Police; Should the U.S. Pay Ransoms for Hostages?; How to Survive a Hostage Crisis

Aired August 28, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This Spokane, Washington police officer is getting wired so his brain and body functions can be monitored as he gets ready to make life or death decisions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Spokane police. Police department. Hey, hey. Talk to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let go of her.

TUCHMAN: Decisions in a most unique laboratory.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you doing? Hey. Let me --

TUCHMAN: Corporal Jordan Ferguson is one of many police officers, military members and civilians who have volunteered time in this violence confrontation lab complete with frighteningly realistic actors on a huge virtual reality screen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You receive a call from a person who says a convenience store is being robbed. Do you understand?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand by.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey. Hey. Back up. Back up. Back up. Put your hands up. Put your hands up. Drop the knife right now. Drop it.

TUCHMAN: While the volunteers make split-second decisions brain waves and heart rates are checked. It's all part of an ambitious research project at Washington State University, partly funded by the Defense Department, with the goal of improving justice in America.

Professor Bryan Vila is the man in charge.

BRYAN VILA, WASHINGTON STATE UNIVERSITY: We don't know yet still 100 some years since Teddy Roosevelt had the first police firearms training in New York, we still don't know whether there's a connection between the training we give police officers and their performance in a combat situation.

TUCHMAN: Sergeant Terry Preuninger is told he has pulled over a stolen car. SGT. TERRY PREUNINGER, POLICE: Can I see your driver's license and

vehicle registration and proof of insurance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want my driver's license?

PREUNINGER: I do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my god.

TUCHMAN: The researchers say these volunteers' hearts are generally racing because it's also realistic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun.

TUCHMAN: Many findings from the study will be released by the end of the year. But some have already been published. The research is declaring that volunteers of all races often view African-American suspects as more threatening than white suspects. But that they may have subconsciously overcompensated because of that bias.

VILA: The surprise was that they were more restrained in shooting African-Americans than they were of whites.

PREUNINGER: Police officer. Let me see your hands. You at the counter, let me see your hands. Don't move. Stop, stop.

TUCHMAN: The officer never knew if the man had a gun but did not shoot.

PREUNINGER: Sometimes we don't know if we made the right decision or the wrong decision. We make a decision and then we live with it for the rest of our lives.

TUCHMAN: Novices are also used as volunteers, so with the cops guiding me I pull over a suspicious car with a broken taillight.

Hello there, sir. Your taillight's broken. Do you know that? Sir, take your hands out of your pockets. Sir, take your hands out of your pockets. Sir -- Sir put your hands on the steering wheel. Sir. Sir. You're not listening. Hands -- ok. Thank you. Yes. That guy looked like he was getting a gun out. So I took the gun out, just pointed at him -- proper way to deal with it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey. Stop. Stop.

TUCHMAN: There is a lot more to learn as these researchers try to make life safer for citizens and for the cops who serve them.

Gary Tuchman, CNN, Spokane, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the mother of American hostage Steven Sotloff makes an emotional plea for her son's captors to release him. We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Right now, the life of American hostage Steven Sotloff is on the line. Officials believe Sotloff who disappeared while reporting in Syria last year is being held by the same terrorists who killed American journalist James Foley. Now Sotloff's mother is begging for her son's release making a direct appeal to the leader of ISIS.

Now, this crisis has many people questioning whether the United States should change its policy on paying ransoms to kidnappers, to terrorists. So what is it like to bargain with terrorists?

CNN's Karl Penhaul talked with a hostage negotiator.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, I've been talking to a veteran kidnap and ransom negotiator here in London and he says the type of appeal made by Sotloff's mom is strategically very important. What the statement is trying to do is refocus the debate on Steven Sotloff as a human being and not look at him as a pawn to be traded in some kind of political game. It also should be understood it's an attempt to open some kind of line of communication with ISIS that could possibly lead to some kind of negotiation for his release. Let's take a look at what the expert had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The life of this American citizen, Obama, depends on your next decision.

PENHAUL: It's a brutal threat to kill journalist Steven Sotloff, a moment of terror.

DUNCAN BULLIVANT, KIDNAP AND RANSOM SPECIALIST: Operationally we've got a big footprint.

PENHAUL: But for kidnap and ransom specialist, Duncan Bullivant, it's also a moment of hope -- what he views as an opening bid in a possible negotiation. Over more than a decade he says he's help cut hostage deals with rebels and drug gangs in Latin America, as well as Islamist radicals in Iraq and Africa.

BULLIVANT: I may find that dealing with a group who are completely around the twist and actually hard -- very, very difficult to negotiate with. You may find you're dealing with a group who are totally inexperienced, out of their depth, and are playing a game which they think they're meant to be playing. And then you get the hard professionals. PENHAUL: ISIS say they killed another American reporter, James Foley

in retaliation for U.S. bombing raids. But a month after Foley was snatched in Syria in 2012, his boss at the "Global Post" says ISIS demanded a ransom for more than $130 million -- a startling number to Foley's employer.

PHIL BALBONI, GLOBAL POST: We thought that something in the range of $5 million was probably the right amount to pay for the ransom.

PENHAUL: While officially denied by the French and Spanish governments, it is widely reported that both countries have paid ransoms in exchange to free their citizens. But in the case of Foley, negotiations quickly collapsed and Balboni doubted whether the ISIS negotiation was serious. Tough as it sounds Bullivant says kidnapping for ransom has become a global business.

BULLIVANT: I don't want to diminish the shocking impact this has on -- devastating impact this has on families but it's a bit like buying a house, you know. If somebody wants to sell a house and you're interested in buying it, but there are ten times the going rate on that particular street you're not going to enter into a negotiation.

PENHAUL: On Wednesday Sotloff's mother made a televised appeal addressing ISIS commander Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi by name.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHIRLEY SOTLOFF, MOTHER OF STEVEN SOTLOFF: As a mother, I ask your justice to be merciful and not punish my son for matters he has no control over.

PENHAUL: Such an appeal, says Bullivant, is an excellent strategy.

BULLIVANT: It's about talking, it's about keeping those lines of communication open at all costs. It's about being calm. It's about really time and time again, reminding people that we're dealing with humans.

PENHAUL: A reminder that not only a ransom, but also human lives, are at stake.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PENHAUL: Sadly, of course, we know that kidnapping worldwide has become big business. The U.S. Treasury Department estimates in the last six years alone that al Qaeda affiliates may have reaped more than $165 million from kidnapping. Certainly no suggestion at this stage that any ransom has been demanded for Sotloff's release.

Back to you -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Karl Penhaul reporting this morning.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, it's a grim and agonizing reality for the Sotloff family -- we just outlined that for you. But for many of us the thought of being held hostage by terrorists is beyond terrifying.

Up next, we'll talk with a former Navy SEAL who's undergone extensive survival training in how to set fear aside when your life is on the line.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: While one family grieves over the loss of American journalist James Foley another family is dealing with the painful reality that their son, freelance journalist Steven Sotloff is still in the hands of brutal ISIS killers. Let's talk more about this with former navy SEAL Chris Heben, he was a member of SEAL Team 8 and he has gone through extensive military training on how to survive a hostage situation.

Good morning, Chris. Thank you for being with me.

CHRIS HEBEN, SEAL TEAM 8: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

COSTELLO: So let's talk about your training and what you learned, you know, if indeed, that terrible thing happens and you are kidnapped. After you're taken hostage I guess my first question would be, how do you control your fear?

HEBEN: Well, since you have gone through a course called SERE, which stands for Survivor, Evasion, Resistance and Escape, you have a certain amount of preloaded ability to control your fear. You basically have to accept the fact that your life is not your own, you're not in control of it at that moment and you have to roll with the punches to a certain extent. So just having that foreknowledge is very helpful.

COSTELLO: So don't fight back. Right?

HEBEN: Don't fight back -- the less resistance, the better. As a soldier, our duty is to not cooperate with them -- to any extent. But as a citizen, a civilian, like a journalist, there has to be a certain amount of cooperation that takes place. There's two different trains of thought.

COSTELLO: So how do you do that? Let's just talk about a civilian being taken hostage like Steven Sotloff? Do you pretend to be their friends, do you talk about your family, what do you do to make things easier on yourself?

HEBEN: Both of those points you made are exactly what you want to do. You want to humanize yourself in their eyes as much as possible. You want to find some commonalities. Empathy is your friend. Whereas if you're a military captive, you don't want to interact with them that much at all because anything you say can and will be used against you, whether it's a signature for anything or any kind of statement they'll contort it to their benefit; whereas if you're a civilian, a journalist, you want to maximize the empathy card with them. If they can see the human side of you, that is to your advantage always.

COSTELLO: And something that perhaps as effective is to talk about your family, like make up children that you don't have, if you don't have children and say I miss my kids at home.

HEBEN: Correct.

COSTELLO: So those are the sorts of things you should say to these terrorists.

HEBEN: Absolutely. If you can -- if I was a civilian and I was taken hostage, I would strongly entertain the idea of even converting to that organization's faith. You know, convert to Islam. You're not going to hold to it once you leave there. It's just ridiculous. Do what you need to do and have to do to survive. Empathy is key.

COSTELLO: Ok. Well, let's talk about empathy because I want to play a portion of that plea from Sotloff's mother and she certainly tried to play the empathy card. Let's listen.

SOTLOFF: Since Steven's capture, I've learned a lot about Islam. I've learned that Islam teaches that no individual should be held responsible for the sins of others. Steven has no control over the actions of the U.S. government. He's an innocent journalist. I've always learned that you the Caliph can grant amnesty. I ask you to please release my child.

COSTELLO: Ok. So I can't believe I'm going to say this, but that sort of plea might work with other terrorist groups, but maybe not ISIS since it's such a brutal organization.

HEBEN: Right. I agree with you 100 percent. ISIS right now is pulling the "we don't give a you-know-what" card. They want to be as brutal and as blatantly brutal as possible. They take terrorism to a factor of 100.

So I think her plea is going to fall on deaf ears. They're basically going to do what they want to do. And it's unfortunate and it's sad. I don't agree with her statement to the point that it may look like she's indicting the United States as a whole in our actions overseas. I didn't agree with that. But I certainly feel for her as a mother. And I hope that she gets her son back. I mean this is a precarious situation and no parent should be in it.

COSTELLO: Is there anything at this point that Special Forces on the ground can do to rescue Steven Sotloff?

HEBEN: Well there's a lot of things that we can do and I hope we're doing them right now. We need to amp up our signals intelligence program, our electronics intelligence and our intelligence specifically. There is no substitute for the human portion of intelligence gathering. And I think we've let that fall to the wayside in the last ten years, especially in the last six or seven years. So we need to bolster our human intelligence capabilities and make this situation go away in a favorable way.

COSTELLO: Chris Heben thank you so much for your insight. We appreciate it.

HEBEN: Thank you very much for having me. COSTELLO: Sure -- any time.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: A photographer set out to capture the very picture of pain. His unique photo shoot in New York City included a group of brave volunteers, a camera, and a stun gun. Jeanne Moos shows you the results.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When you think of stun guns and tasers --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't tase me, bro.

MOOS: -- you tend to think of them in the hands of police. Not photographers.

PATRICK HALL, STUN GUN PHOTO SHOOT PHOTOGRAPHER: This is the taser that I use and this thing, it hurts.

MOOS: Charleston photographer, Patrick Hall, recruited 80 participants willing to be stun gunned. And at the very moment, they were shocked he shot slow-motion video and stills.

HALL: I wound up buying a bunch of tasers off Amazon and they were the perfect strength. When you got hit with this taser, it was enough to make you scream and jump up out of your chair.

MOOS: But do no permanent damage.

Kathleen Holland, a friend of the photographer, got shocked on the leg.

(on camera): Did it hurt?

KATHLEEN HOLLAND, STUN GUN PHOTO SHOOT PARTICIPANT: Oh, yes, it did. You know, I think it was more of literally, of a shock. It feels like a little sting, essentially.

MOOS (voice-over): It was mild compared to the jolt former CNNer Rick Sanchez --

RICK SANCHEZ, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: Do it.

MOOS: -- once endured in an electrifying situation.

SANCHEZ: It hurts.

MOOS: Rick kept his clothes on.

The photo shoot participants partially disrobed so the photos would be clean, no distractions. Even the photographer himself got shocked. He recruited people on Facebook, by word of mouth, and using flyers. Everyone had to sign a waiver.

(on camera): But beside the fact that it's fun watching people get shocked, what is the point of these portraits?

(voice-over): Patrick says he wanted portraits not so posed.

HALL: There's no way you can fake your emotion and your expression when you get hit with 300,000 volts of electricity.

MOOS: But he didn't just shoot the people getting zapped. He shot the zappers, too.

In Kathleen's case, it was Patrick's sister wielding the stun gun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She loved it.

MOOS: Most of the zappers seemed to enjoy inflicting a little pain. They were friends or significant others, though one couple was out on their first date. Talk about a connection.

Some of those being zapped looked like they were in pain.

While others laughed and even looked orgasmic, and reminded us a bit of the recent slap video, featuring folks slapping each other silly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Harder. Harder.

MOOS: All this slapping and zapping, soon there'll be nothing left to shock us, to make us roll our eyes. But did they have to do it there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go, go.

MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Ok. I wasn't grossed out until that very last shot. Jeanne, really, did you need to show me that.

Anyway, thanks for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"@THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA" after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman.