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CNN NEWSROOM

Obama Wants Review of Police Weaponry; U.S. Attempts to Eradicate ISIS in Iraq; Unrest in Ferguson; Jury Makeup in The Brown Case

Aired August 23, 2014 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ERIN MCPIKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Administration official who told me the president has asked for a review of whether these programs are appropriate, whether state and local law enforcement are provided with the necessary training and guidance, and whether the federal government is sufficiently auditing the use of equipment obtained through federal programs and funding.

Now, we also know, you mentioned that this is going to be a very wide review, and that's certainly true. It will involve a number of federal agencies from the White House, White House staff, the Domestic Policy Council, National Security Council, the Office of Management and Budget, as well as the Department of Defense, Department of Homeland Security, Justice, the Treasury and congressional hearings and, of course, Missouri Senator Claire McCaskill has been saying she wants to see a bigger review and she is calling for congressional hearings in September, Jim.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: So, these programs have been around a long time. They go back to 9/11. Why is the president moving now? Is it as simple as looking at the events in Ferguson and that that's really the spark here?

MCPIKE: Well, certainly, as a political issue this has been alive for some time. You have Democrats and libertarian-minded Republicans who have been saying that this infringes on civil rights and they've wanted to see some changes for a while.

But for the White House, yes, it is Ferguson that sparked this as an issue and sparked this review and the president said on Monday that those -- though these local communities needed a lot of this equipment to respond to potential terrorist attacks after 9/11, it's time for this review because of the problems of blurring lines between local law enforcement and the military, Jim.

SCIUTTO: No questions some very powerful images throughout the week in Ferguson.

Thanks very much to Erin McPike in Washington.

At the local level, there are a lot of police departments that are very happy to get the military's excess equipment. They say it makes their communities much safer.

Here's CNN's Deborah Feyerick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEVEN SKRYNECKI, NASSAU COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Bullets will not go into this. You can have an explosion in the road, it will not disrupt the vehicle.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This 2006 mine-resistant ambush-protected vehicle once saw action in Baghdad and Fallujah.

(on camera): The inside still looks like it was in the desert.

SKRYNECKI: It's pretty big capacity in here.

FEYERICK (voice-over): Now it belongs to the Nassau County Police Department on Long Island.

SKRYNECKI: This vehicle because of its heavy armament could enter a hot zone. As you've seen it's very, very heavy.

FEYERICK (on camera): Unbelievable. Have you ever taken this vehicle out?

SKRYNECKI: This vehicle has not been used yet.

FEYERICK: It hasn't?

SKRYNECKI: And hopefully it never will be.

FEYERICK (voice-over): The Defense Department is giving out billions of dollars' worth of surplus military equipment to police agencies across the country.

SKRYNECKI: This will withstand gunfire, but this one would not.

FEYERICK: Things like Humvees, backhoes, watch towers, in some cases even weapons, all of it handed out for free.

SKRYNECKI: They're downsizing the military now rather than dispose of these vehicles or have them sitting in a lot rotting, they've made them available to police agencies such as ours and we've taken advantage of it.

FEYERICK: Nassau's chief of departments, Steve Skrynecki oversees police operations here. He says the equipment is a key part of the city's emergency response and rescue plan. Whether responding to natural disasters like Superstorm Sandy or active shooting situations.

SKRYNECKI: You know, when it comes down to saving lives, I don't think there's ever too much.

FEYERICK: But do these weapons from the battlefield belong in the hands of police officers? Even before the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, the ACLU accused police of becoming dangerously militarized. KARA DANSKY, ACLU: Many police departments across the country are using these paramilitary weapons and tactics without receiving the specialized training.

FEYERICK: Nassau has strict protocols and monthly training for its officers. Other cities with smaller police forces do not.

SKRYNECKI: These are not toys to play with. These are critical pieces of equipment and it can be used under certain circumstances and under certain circumstances only.

FEYERICK: The ACLU has criticized lack of oversight and inconsistent training within the nation's many police departments.

(on camera): People are demonizing the use of military grade vehicles in small town police departments. Is that fair?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot has changed in the world since 9/11. Terrorist groups are attacking us from abroad. Terrorist groups are springing up here in the country. Police departments today in the 21st century are a giant component to our national security.

FEYERICK: Deborah Feyerick, CNN, Nassau County, Long Island.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: My next guest has a very unique perspective on the police use of military weapons. He not only once led the New York City Police Department, he also helped the U.S. military, rather, train Iraqi police in Iraq.

With me now former New York City police commissioner, Bernard Kerik.

Bernard, thanks very much for joining us. You strongly defended the use of military armored personnel carriers, weapons by local police. Make the case for us here.

BERNARD KERIK, FORMER NEW YORK POLICE COMMISSIONER: Well, first of all, back to the beginning of the cartel error in the war on drugs, the weapons in our streets started to change. We went from revolvers to semi-automatic guns, to semi-automatic weapons, to fully automatic weapons and that the police has had to deal with.

We've seen major, major problems in our schools, military bases, malls where we've had people assassinated and gunned down. Special weapons units have had to respond to those assaults, to those attacks. In the last 48 hours, we have heard the secretary of defense and our military commanders talk about the ISIS threat abroad and how it's coming here. In the aftermath of 9/11, nobody should deny that. Nobody should be in denial.

These units, these weapons, this equipment is necessary, but the one thing that I would have to say I agree with, whether it's the ACLU saying it, whether it's the president saying it, or whether it's the harshest critics of these programs, training. Training is the most important issue here. If there was better training, we wouldn't have seen what we saw on day one out in Ferguson. You had local law enforcement responding to a riot with semi-automatic and automatic weapons. It's -- it was wrong. It shouldn't have happened.

But you cannot diminish the ability of local and state law enforcement to protect our cities in this day and age by taking the stuff away that really secures our country.

SCIUTTO: But let me ask you about necessity here because, for instance, when you look at the MRAPs, that's a mine resistant vehicle designed for Afghanistan and Iraq. I've ridden in them there when I've been embedded with U.S. troops. Necessary there, there's a real mine and IED threat in Afghanistan and Iraq. There's no mine or IED threat here in the U.S.

Why does the Nassau County Police Department, for instance, we saw the piece of Deborah Feyerick before, need a giant mine resistant truck in the streets of Nassau County just outside New York? Why is that necessary?

KERIK: Would anybody have said a year and a half ago that you need an MRAP in Boston? No. They wouldn't have said it.

The problem is, we don't know where the next attack is going to be. And it's coming. I promise you as horrific as it may be and as bad as people do not want to hear it, there are going to be attacks in this country.

SCIUTTO: Yes, but Boston was attacked against law enforcement. Boston was an attack against civilians and terrorists go for soft targets. I mean, it gets to the question --

KERIK: They go for soft targets, but who has to respond, Jim? The local and state authorities have to respond. They are the first responders.

As the commander in Nassau said, they are the first responders. They are the men and women that have to go out there and intervene in these circumstances and respond in these circumstances. They're going to need the equipment to do that.

And if you diminish that equipment, if you take it away, two things are going to happen. One, the officers aren't going to be able to do their job, or two, more importantly and horribly, they're going to die trying.

SCIUTTO: Well, listen, having spent a lot of time with law enforcement, I just personally want to see them protected as well. I think all Americans do.

But it gets to the question about what you gain from these kinds of weapons. You made the point as well, this was a riot. There were some armed people there, but most were not.

You had policemen looking like soldiers not only in what they were using but what they were wearing, et cetera. It seems that you were saying you saw the misuse in Ferguson of some of this equipment even if in other circumstances, law enforcement may in fact need it.

KERIK: You know what, Jim, I think that's the key here. People have to realize on day one I saw people standing out there, peaceful protestors, with their hands up in a line and I saw armed police officers with assault weapons trained down on them.

It was unnecessary. This was a riot control, disturbance control situation. In the days after when people were throwing Molotov cocktails, firing gunfire into the crowd, just destroying personal and private property, the response is going to be different. It has to be different. Police have to respond with force to force, but you know what, in that first day, the response was wrong. But don't diminish the ability of our national police service to do their job because of that incident.

SCIUTTO: Thanks very much. You make a strong argument and I want to ask you to stick around because I want to remind our viewers you work not only with the New York Police Department but also with Iraqi police helping to train them. So, I want to talk to you about the terror threat that ISIS is releasing and what it will take to stop them.

We're also going to talk about ISIS with the retired army colonel. We've seen U.S. air strikes in Iraq. Are we about to see the same in Syria?

Please stay with us. There's a lot more to talk about here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

A series of bloody attacks mark a violent day across Iraq, with the threat of ISIS still ever present and growing. In Kirkuk, three car bombs and a roadside bomb exploded in close succession in different areas of that city, killing at least 20 people and wounding 130 others.

A suicide bomber targeted the intelligence headquarters in central Baghdad, claiming four lives. All this as ISIS fighters have taken the ethnic Shiite town in northern Iraq and its residents are now without power and running out of food, water and medical supplies, the city under siege.

CNN has also learned today that U.S. military forces carried out an air strike against ISIS near the Mosul dam just hours ago.

The question for the Obama administration, are air strikes targeting ISIS in Syria next?

We want to talk it over now with retired Army Colonel Peter Mansoor. He's joining us from Columbus. He advised General David Petraeus in Iraq during the troop surge in 2007, 2008, credited with ending a civil war there.

Colonel, I wonder as you watch this now, you've said that ISIS is becoming more and more difficult each and every day for the U.S., for the region. Why is that in your view?

COL. PETER MANSOOR (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It's incredibly well- financed. It has an arsenal of U.S. weapons that it seized when it overran Mosul in June. It has adherence that are combat experienced from the Syrian conflict and the Iraqi conflict, and it has thousands of adherence that are flocking to its colors from around the world and locally. So, this is a very, virulent and capable organization and that's what we've seen over the past two months, in its overrunning of northern and western Iraq.

SCIUTTO: The killing of James Foley -- grisly, publicized videotape sent around the world. It's been called a terrorist attack on the U.S. by U.S. officials. Is the U.S. now at war with is?

MANSOOR: Well, I think it's inevitable that we will go to war with is. ISIS has pledged to destroy western civilization. It wants to take over the Middle East, which would be obviously the death knell of Western economies. It is an organization that will not be placated and cannot be contained in the long run. So, I think sooner or later, the United States will have to go to war with ISIS and destroy it.

SCIUTTO: That's an alarming prospect. The U.S., the administration considering air strikes inside Syria in addition to the air strikes that have become daily events against ISIS targets in Iraq. Is air power enough to push back is, to fight a war against is or does it require a ground response, ground troops, U.S. ground troops?

MANSOOR: Well, air power is certainly an important part of the equation, but you have to have a ground force to retake ground lost. You can blunt an offensive with airpower, but you can't retake ground without ground troops. And these troops will probably be Iraqi and Kurdish forces, maybe forces from other Arab states.

I doubt that they will be U.S. boots on the ground. Perhaps Special Forces to do pinpoint raids or advise Iraqi and Kurdish forces, but I don't see a role for U.S. conventional troops other than advising training and equipping the Iraqi and Kurdish forces.

SCIUTTO: Now, that would help solve the problem in Iraq because you could have Kurdish forces joining up with Iraqi special forces as has been the formula the last week or so around the Mosul dam. Doesn't solve the problem in Syria. The problem in Syria is the non-extreme rebel groups haven't proven frankly up to the task, whether against ISIS or the Assad regime.

So, what do you do on the ground in Syria then?

MANSOOR: It's much more difficult problem. We're going to have to apply air power across the nonexistent border. I wouldn't make too much of the fact that there's a national border there since in effect it doesn't exist any longer. But we're going to have to train and equip the free Syrian army, the moderate faction there, and build up its capabilities and perhaps even ally ourselves with Sunni tribes that have battled ISIS and lost heavily because ISIS is so much more powerful. But if we can get Special Forces into the region and foment an

insurgency with ISIS and ally ourselves with tribes willing to fight ISIS, and air power plus those tribal elements on the ground can do a great deal to destroy ISIS elements in Syria.

SCIUTTO: Inevitable that the U.S. will go to war with ISIS says Colonel Peter Mansoor. He knows it. He's experienced in Iraq with General Petraeus. Thanks very much for joining us. Please stay with us because we want to hear more from you just ahead.

But first up, a massive at a mosque in Baghdad. An attack during Friday prayers kills dozens.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

Fears are growing that Iraq is again on the verge of an all out sectarian war. A Sunni mosque in Baghdad was attacked yesterday during Friday prayers, killing at least 70 people in a cold blooded massacre.

CNN's Jomana Karadsheh has the gruesome details.

I want to warn you, some of the aftermath of this attack is graphic.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Cries of anguish and pain by family members searching for their loved ones amongst the dead. This disturbing video uploaded to YouTube purportedly shows the aftermath of a horrific attack on a Sunni mosque northeast of Baghdad.

Police say gunmen stormed the mosque during Friday prayers and opened fire, killing at least 70 people, the killings reminiscent of the attacks during the height of Iraq's brutal sectarian war in 2006 and '07.

(on camera): With violence level soaring over the past year and sectarian tensions on the rise, this attack has increased fears of a cycle of retaliation that could reignite all out sectarian bloodshed.

(voice-over): Sunni politicians blame the attack on Shia militias, announcing their control of government talks until the perpetrators are arrested. Iraq's main Shia political parties have also joined the cause for an immediate investigation.

Salim al-Jabouri, a moderate Sunni and the country's parliament speaker attempted to calm tensions on Saturday.

SALIM AL-JIBOURI, MODERATE SUNNI (through translator): Today, a committee was sent to investigate this incident. The committee contains a number of parliament members, along with security authorities, and a 48-hour deadline was set to reach results for this investigation of this heinous crime and massacre (INAUDIBLE). We are awaiting these results and those results will be clear and public for everybody. This was promised by the ministry of interior.

KARADSHEH: But Sunnis have little trust in the Shia-led government and its promises. Over the past years, Sunni Arabs have felt marginalized by what they say are the sectarian policies of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and persecuted by the Shia-dominated security forces and militias.

The grievances of Sunni Arabs and the sectarian division have already been exploited by ISIS, allowing it to gain support amongst Sunnis who saw the terror group as the lesser of two evils. Many fear images like this could only drive more Sunnis into the arms of ISIS and the country closer to an all out civil war.

Jomana Karadsheh, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: ISIS overwhelmed parts of Iraq by capitalizing on the internal grievances that Jomana was talking about there, percolating now throughout the country. ISIS is considered today the world's most dangerous jihadist group and many ISIS fighters are armed with American weapons, the same weapons the U.N. once gave to Iraqi soldiers to take care of their own security.

So, how can the U.S. topple ISIS now?

I want to bring in our panel, former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik, who served as interim minister of the interior in Iraq in 2003, and retired Army Colonel Peter Mansoor, who advised General David Petraeus during the troop surge. And both Kerik and Mansoor were in Iraq at the same time, in fact, just after the U.S. invasion.

If you can begin with you, Commissioner Kerik, you were instrumental in training Iraqi forces. It was an enormous task, a lot of money, a lot of blood, sweat and tears went into it. And yet, we saw the Iraqi military dissolved as ISIS advanced across the border from Syria. Was that investment a waste of time?

KERIK: Well, no, I don't think it was a waste of time at that time. This was going back in 2003. I got there within probably a month or so after the fall of Saddam. There was lawlessness, looting. I was there for the bombing of the U.N., the Jordanian mission and the mosque in Najaf.

Somebody had to keep the streets or attempt to keep the violence down in the country at that time and we were trying to put as many Iraqis up as possible, the national police and the military.

As you know, the military basically dissolved back into the communities. Everybody, all the security forces, and it was our job to bring them back and try to stand them up to secure their own country. And that was no easy task.

And I think the best part of that was General Petraeus. You know, by the time they got these guys up and running, implemented the surge, it really benefitted the Iraqis. It really stabilized security at the time, but I think since then we've had some major setbacks. And as a result of those setbacks, this is what we're seeing now.

SCIUTTO: Colonel Mansoor, I want to ask this question because the U.S. tried training and equipping the Iraqi military to take over security responsibility after U.S. forces left in 2011, 2012. This is now again part of the strategy, training and equipping Kurdish forces, talk of training and equipping some of the Syrian rebels as well, but we've seen the weakness in that strategy.

How can the U.S. truly push back ISIS while still relying on local forces that often have not been up to the task?

MANSOOR: The problem with Iraqi security forces in Mosul in June was poor leadership at the top. Nouri al-Maliki turned the Iraqi army into his private militias. He replaced the confident commanders with his political cronies and political hacks, and they mistreated the soldiers. They used their positions for financial gain.

And any military leader can tell you that that's a recipe for failure on the battlefield. The troops when it came down to it simply wouldn't fight for these commanders. So, as part of our train and equip effort, we need to mandate that the Iraqis and the Kurdish leaders, political leaders, put aside their politics and put in leaders of military forces who are competent and not based on sect, ethnicity or political party. That has got to be part of the agreement before we engage in this effort.

SCIUTTO: Commissioner Kerik, you turn around the politics, does that solve the problem, do you think?

KERIK: I think that's a substantial problem. I'd even touch on what the colonel just said. I have people on the ground there, friends that have been there in the last four, five months and told me there were enormous problems getting funding from Maliki to the north. Billions of dollars that were supposed to be allocated to the north never got there, was held back because of his politics.

I think that's a substantial problem. I think we've got to give them the air support they need and most importantly, we have to go after the funding, the money that they have, ISIS has, the oil fields, they're pillaging towns. Funding is going to be either the success of ISIS or the demise of ISIS. And I think we have to go after that money.

SCIUTTO: That's interesting. ISIS by all accounts runs itself almost like the mob. It's got extortion, it sells oil.

KERIK: And, Jim, it's turning into an army. You know, like the colonel said, this isn't a small group. This is basically turning into an army of radical extremists.

SCIUTTO: No question. That's what the U.S. military officials have been telling me. They operate like an army. They hold territory like an army. Colonel, I want in effect ask you then, in light of that, in light of the games that ISIS has made, how long should the American people expect U.S. military action back in Iraq, possibly in Syria? Are we looking at months? Are we looking at years? MANSOOR: I think we're looking at years and the American leadership,

political leadership needs to prepare the American people for the long haul here. This is an organization that is strong, virulent, well- financed and it's not going to be defeated quickly like we defeated the Taliban in 2001 or Saddam Hussein's armed forces in 2003.

This is going to take a while because we're not going to employ U.S. conventional forces on the ground and so it's going to take a while to reform, and reequip and retrain the Iraqi and Kurdish forces and then it's going to take a while to chip away at ISIS and defeat them and then destroy them both in Iraq and in Syria. It's not going to be a short, quick campaign.

SCIUTTO: The U.S. at war against ISIS for years says Col. Peter Monsoor. He knows his stuff. From Iraq with General Petraeus. Thanks very much to (INAUDIBLE) Kerik as well. He helped train the Iraqi military. Great to have you both on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: News this hour that the White House will send officials to the funeral of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, on Monday. We'll have more on that here at home, coming up.

Also ahead, with the first day of school there delayed because of the unrest, hear from children who have nothing to do with what's happened, how they've been affected by the events. We're back right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: A little good news from the Little League World Series. For the first time in more than 30 years, an all African-American team will represent the U.S. in the Little League World Series title game. The team Jackie Robinson West came from behind to beat Las Vegas today 7-5. The boys have attracted a huge following far beyond their hometown of Chicago. You can see them there.

South Korea won the international championship 12-3 over Japan. They will square off against the Chicago team tomorrow for the world title. Really is a world series.

Now back in Ferguson. Schools in Ferguson are scheduled to re-open Monday, 16 days after the shooting death of Michael Brown. In the meantime, a group of volunteer teachers have opened the doors of the public library for a school all their own. It's called the School of Peace. Our own Don Lemon sat down with one of the students to see how she's handling what's been going on in her hometown.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): So what are you guys doing? Are you doing math? What's going on?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Social media is fantastic. Social media, got on the phone, got on e-mail, got on Twitter, got on Facebook. Said kids don't have school. What are we going to do? They end up here.

LEMON: Do you like school here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. We get to play and go outside.

LEMON: So your regular school, have you been to the regular school yet?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

LEMON: No? So this is your regular school now for a while, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is my school.

LEMON: Are you making friends here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

LEMON: Yes?

ANTONA SMITH, SCHOOL OF PEACE: Teachers had a few art supplies, few crayons. 12 kids, that's a few. 40 kids we could manage. We can put some structure around it like we're having a little school. Good thing teachers came. Then we said, OK, we need school. So we had pre-K, kindergarten, first grade. We had a full middle school going on with AP, language arts classes going on, with actual algebra classes going on.

LEMON: That is amazing. See what happens out of something terrible -

SMITH: Something wonderful has been happening.

JANICE BUGETT, MOTHER: We've been here since Tuesday. It's not their fault that this is happening. And they should be able to still learn and have fun and still eat. Have a little bit of normalcy.

LEMON: Structure? Normal things?

BUGETT: Yes.

LEMON: Do you agree with that? Yes. And you do, too? Say, yes, mom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, mom.

LEMON: I agree with that, too. I think that's great. People from all over the country are sending you stuff. They're sending you money, sending you supplies or what?

SMITH: Supplies.

LEMON: Food.

SMITH: Brought in supplies. A lot of the food has come from the metropolitan area. Someone from Clayton came in and brought a donation. They wanted it specifically for the library to buy African- American books for male children. So now that library fund has been increased a little bit.

LEMON: That's amazing.

SMITH: It's amazing. It's more than -

LEMON: African-American books for male children.

SMITH: For male children.

LEMON: Wow. How's that? All right.

Is this the solution you think or at least part of the solution as to how to help the young black males in this community?

SMITH: Oh, my gosh. There are so many layers to that, and St. Louis, the nation, but St. Louis and the region of St. Louis has to peel back the layers and peel back the onion. It smells, right? You just peel it back and really honestly look at ourselves and look at our community and examine, how did this happen? This did not just happen.

LEMON: - happen overnight.

SMITH: The governor came here yesterday. There was a judge in here yesterday. Captain Johnson came by yesterday. So all of these people to come around and, you know, circle these children to say, you know what, we adults, sometimes we mess up.

LEMON: We got your back.

SMITH: We don't get it right.

LEMON: Right.

SMITH: We know you're the important entity right here. We need to focus on you.

LEMON: do you know about what's going on? What's happening? Kid got shot? What do you think of that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's mean kind of.

LEMON: Yes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he should have did just leave the kid alone when he was doing. He shouldn't do nothing but leave the kid alone and see where he was going to and say, mister, what are you doing, and then walk away.

LEMON: Nobody gets hurt, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh-huh. But now he die. And that's bad.

LEMON: Very bad thing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the good thing was he - he's not - he's a kid but he -- he -- he do everything with his father and mama and that's why he's going to stay a kid. So he can be with his mama and his dad.

LEMON: He needs to stay alive to be with his mom and dad?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh-huh.

LEMON: Do you see the protesters and the people out on the street? What do you think of them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's people in the way.

LEMON: They're in the way of your car?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh-huh. When you're trying to drive they're in the way. People will be blowing their horns. That's too much.

LEMON: From the mouths of babes sometimes, huh? Do you understand why they're out there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

LEMON: Do you understand why are they out there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because the boy got shot and they're mad about that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: The School of Peace and a place that has seen very little of it.

Coming up next, calls for the county prosecutor in Ferguson, Missouri, to step aside. Is that a legitimate request? Our legal analysts weigh in right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: This just in now. CNN's learned that the Obama White House is sending two presidential aides to attend Monday's funeral for Missouri teen Michael Brown. Also CNN's Acosta reports that the president and the White House secretary, cabinet secretary Broderick Johnson will attend the service, along with deputy director of the White House Office of Public Engagement, Marlin Marshall.

Marshall, we're told is a native of St. Louis, who attended high school actually with Michael Brown's mother. Now Michael Brown's death has fueled protests, sparked debate and opened a wave of legal questions. We've set aside a lot of time this hour to get some answers from two of our best legal analysts.

They are in New York, criminal defense attorney, Joey Jackson, legal analyst at HLN and in Orlando, joined by CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney as well Mark O'Mara. I want to start first with the prosecutor in this case, Robert McCullough. He's attracted a fair amount of controversy. A lot of pressure for him to recluse himself. In fact, an independent prosecutor take over. Mark O'Mara, McCullough has held this job for decades. In your view, is there a case here for him to step aside?

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, I wavered early on thinking because of all the social and political pressures on the case that maybe having somebody completely independent would help ease the concerns, but I've got to say I've sort of gotten to the point where he's done it for 24 years. I think it's a dangerous precedent to say that because solely due to the external pressures that he somehow is incapable of doing the internal work that he's done for 24 years should only happen with a black victim, with a white shooter or the opposite or any racial disparity. I think unless he says by following his statutes and the ethical code that he has a conflict, then the rule says he doesn't.

SCIUTTO: Joey, do you agree with that? I know one of the criticisms is his close relationship with police, but we had another legal analyst say early on, (INAUDIBLE) made the point that all prosecutors have a close relationship with police. What do you think here? Would an independent prosecutor make a difference?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: I think it would, Jim. I think it goes deeper than that. It's not only external concerns. There are concerns for the community. There are concerns regarding the parents and there are concerns regarding justice. Now I get and I understand that he's been a prosecutor for a long time. I also - it's not lost on me that many prosecutors have strong ties with the police, but when you're talking about someone who himself, his father suffered the misfortune of being shot and killed by an African-American, you wonder how that plays on him.

And also in addition to that, you just wonder whether that, the connections that he has to law enforcement will it sway him one way or the other. Now I trust that, you know what? The system will move forward and he'll be professional at what he does. I think that's what justice demands, that's what society demands, that's what Michael Brown's parents demand.

But why take the chance, why take the risk when there's a public outcry like this, why have there been any appearance of impropriety, why there have been any question. A special prosecutor could be appointed and I think that would instill public confidence in the process, in the system and allow for no question in the event that it's presented and there is not an indictment. So I favor a system that allows for public trust and confidence, I think a special prosecutor, Jim, will accomplish that end.

SCIUTTO: Well, let me ask you this question. There's a lot of ingredients go into a fair trial, the perception of a fair trial. One is the prosecutor, the other is the venue. You look, for instance, at some folks who are coming out and supporting the officer, Darren Wilson. There's been a lot of media coverage of this trial. Do you think, Mark O'Mara, that there's a case here for a change of venue. Move it to another community which is less poisoned, less galvanized, and energized by this, you know, where you may not be able to find an unbiased jury?

O'MARA: I made the decision not to move the Zimmerman case and got a lot of flak from most of the attorneys out there who didn't understand the reason why. Generally speaking it's a good move to move out of the venue where the event occurred, particularly in a case that's gotten a lot of publicity. Of course, the contraposition is there's no place in Missouri that you're going to get people who don't know about this case. So it's really going to come down to vetting out the potential jury panel to find out what they know, have them admit everything that they know, and then try and get people who can set that aside and only listen to what's in the courtroom.

SCIUTTO: Joey, you know, another issue with the grand jury, there are a lot of odd things. One, it's done in secret, right? There are no cameras in a grand jury hearing. But the other thing, tell us if we have this right, the officer will actually testify on his own with no legal counsel. That's standard procedure with a grand jury like this?

JACKSON: Generally it's not. Generally when you have a grand jury presentation and apparently Missouri, every state does it differently, apparently Missouri you'll be invited to testify as to whether he decides to testify, that will be up to him and his counsel. But even when an attorney is present in the grand jury, even in New York, Jim, your lawyer is of little significance.

Your lawyer is the person who is there as your legal advisor. I tell my clients, don't look at me, don't glance at me, don't do anything because then you appear coached but what it will really come down to is it will come down to the facts, it will come down to the evidence, it will come down to the eye witnesses, the forensics, the autopsy. It will come down to the DNA evidence with respect to whether Michael Brown was in that car, not in the car. And ultimately a grand jury, remember, Jim, just has to decide a very small threshold. Is there probable cause to believe that a crime was committed and that Darren Wilson committed it? If they do, that is 12 grand jurors, nine of which could vote an indictment, which is an accusation. The process will move forward.

SCIUTTO: All right. Joey Jackson, Mark O'Mara, please stay with us because there are other questions we want to get to including your thoughts on the racial makeup of the grand jury. We're getting details of that now. What it could mean. With the case moving forward. Please stay with us. We're going to discuss that question right after this.

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SCIUTTO: Welcome back. We're discussing the legal ins and outs of the Michael Brown shooting case in Ferguson, Missouri. I'm joined by criminal defense attorneys, Joey Jackson and Mark O'Mara.

I want to talk now about the grand jury. We now know the makeup of that grand jury, six white men, three white women, two black women, one black man. If I could start with you, Mark, does the racial makeup of the jury, in your experience, particularly in cases like this where race is clearly a factor, does it make a difference?

O'MARA: I think it makes a difference because of the perception. As far as a legal side of it, as long as the pool from which the grand jury was picked is not infected with a racial bias, than even had there been 12 white people, it would have been a proper grand jury, but I have to say, I'm very glad that we have a grand jury that mirrors the community in that county because it's going to be a lot easier for whatever they do to be accepted because we can't be ignorant that racial component is a huge part of the Michael Brown case.

SCIUTTO: Joey, I want to ask you, if you agree, because even with the 9-3 split, which is representative in statistical terms, I've seen on Twitter a number people responding, saying "hey, why isn't it 9-3 the other way in light of people involved?" You spoke earlier about eliminating questions in a trial like this. The truth is, you can't really eliminate all the questions, can you? So does this look to a fair makeup to you?

JACKSON: Well, look, the reality is, Jim, is race does matter. It is significant. Look, as lawyers, when you try a case, it's important to the case that you're trying. And you know you look for that. What ends up happening is that you want to ensure that the jurors who are there, no matter what their racial composition, could be fair and could be reasonable.

But it is of concern. Because when you deal with an issue of race, it deals with culture, it deals with upbringing and it also deals with perception. And so at the end of the day while I'm confident that a jury and grand jury no matter what the composition will be able to discern what the evidence is, there is a concern that with a jury that is composed less of African-Americans, you know, will they be relatable, will they be able to digest and understand and will they ultimately be able to be just? Now, I'm confident that they will be, but there's always a concern when you talk about race.

SCIUTTO: All right. So you have the fight in the courtroom, and then you have the fight outside the courtroom, in the court of public opinion. To use the cliche. But it is relevant here. And I wonder just in the last couple days you've started to see the opposing voice come out. For instance, a protest today, those defending Officer Darren Wilson.

I wonder, Mark, in your experience, do you think it's been a mistake that up to this point there hasn't been someone speaking in public for Officer Wilson? He's been in hiding, himself. Do you think that has been damaging to his point of view in this shooting?

O'MARA: I believe it is a mistake. You know, before 2010 with some of the Casey Anthony case, and the Zimmerman case, when most of these cases now have a public persona to them, I think it's very important today that the officer have that public persona through this representatives. I don't think those lawyers representing him should come out and start talking about facts, but I do think they should say a presentation of who he is, what he's going through, and to at least counter the argument that there's enough facts out there to make a decision and try and say what should be said in this case, which is nobody knows a lot of the facts. Nobody. And we need to wait until the process works and the system gets those facts into a fact finder's hand. First it will be the grand jury, then it be the jury of trial jury if we get to that point.

SCIUTTO: Joey, you talk about facts, and although there hasn't been a complete investigation, you know, god knows at this point, there have been a lot of facts thrown out there, thrown into the mix. One of them is that video, the video that took place a number of minutes before the shooting that shows a robbery taking place with Michael Brown involved. How relevant is that to this case? Or because it's separated by 20-some odd minutes or so, is it not, from a legal perspective, directly relevant to the shooting, itself?

JACKSON: Well, Jim, the relevance of that video depends upon what Officer Wilson knew and when he knew it. Now, in the event that he had no knowledge at all that there was any type of strong-arm robbery, then, of course, the relevance is diminished because in his mind he's just telling people to get out of the street for jay walking.

What sense of fear would he then have at that moment? Did he know, was he aware at all whether there was a robbery, such that he knew he had to be guarded, he knew that he might have to use some type of force because of the robbery. In the event he was unaware of it, then its relevance you have to question, you know, how significant is it really?

Now, some have made the discussion that it would be relevant with respect to Michael Brown and what he was thinking at the time, but irrespective of that, what it comes down to, Jim, is whether or not imminent threat was posed and whether or not the force used was proportionate to that threat that was posed at the time. And if the answer is the force was not proportionate, then of course Darren Wilson has some explaining to do.

SCIUTTO: Joey, Mark, great to have you on. You answered a lot of my questions for sure about this case.

JACKSON: Pleasure and privilege, Jim, be well. Thank you.

O'MARA: The same. Take care.

SCIUTTO: Well, coming up now, we have an update on a tropical depression brewing in the Caribbean this evening and it's only expected to get stronger. CNN meteorologist Jennifer Gray has the very latest.

JENNIFER GRAY, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Jim, we are looking at our latest tropical depression number four, and it is finally getting its act together. It is a ragged looking storm, but now that it has pulled away from the Dominican Republic into those warmer waters, right around the southern Bahamas, Turks and Caicos, it is expected to do strengthening, organizing over the next couple of days.

Right now, 35 miles per hour winds moving to the northwest at about 12 miles per hour. Here's the latest forecast track from the National Hurricane Center, possibly becoming a tropical storm by tomorrow. Then even becoming a category 1 hurricane. The forecast track does have it staying to the east keeping it away from the U.S., but you can see how wide the cone is. So still a little bit of uncertainty there. Any little wobble in this forecast track could cause a bigger impact on the coast. Meaning higher surf, rip currents and even bigger impacts than that. So all eyes are going to be on the storm which could become Cristovol by tomorrow. We're going to be watching this very, very closely, Jim, for the coming days.

SCIUTTO: Thank you, Jennifer. I'm Jim Sciutto. A marathon of John Walsh's "THE HUNT" begins right now.