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CNN NEWSROOM

Attorney General Arrives in Ferguson Soon; Obama's Strategy on ISIS; McCulloch Responds to Critics

Aired August 20, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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CAPT. RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI HIGHWAY PATROL: I believe there was a turning point made. I think that turning point was made by the clergy, the activists, the volunteers, and the men and women of law enforcement who partnered together to make a difference. But also those citizens who took heed to what we talked about last night. Not allowing the criminals that mask themselves in a peaceful protest. They protested early and went home early and allowed us a better visual look at those criminal and agitators.

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CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: The U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder is likely hoping he can help calm tensions in Missouri even more. He is en route to Ferguson right now expected to meet with FBI investigators already on the ground. Also he will meet with Department of Justice personnel who are working on the case. He'll also meet with community leaders.

CNN's Evan Perez live in Ferguson with more on Holder's visit -- good morning.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning Carol.

We expect the attorney general to arrive here in about 90 minutes or so. And he will be here for several hours. We know he's going to meet with some community leaders as you just mentioned, members of the clergy, people who have been having these almost daily meetings with community relations service from the Justice Department.

We do expect that the Brown family, the parents of Michael Brown, will participate in at least one of these meetings that the attorney general is having. He's also going to meet as you mentioned with the FBI investigators and the prosecutors who are doing the civil rights investigation here in Ferguson.

Now, that's a very important and very unusual event here. It's not very common that the attorney general comes to the scene of an ongoing investigation. And that tells you about what the importance of this visit is and about this investigation. He's trying to make sure that he can be assured both the Brown family and this community that this investigation is going to be done fairly and justice will be done -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Is there any sense that Mr. Holder might want to take over the court proceedings in this case?

PEREZ: Well, Carol, you know, that's a very difficult thing for the Justice Department to do. They have jurisdiction over federal crimes, and so they are doing a civil rights investigation that's separate from the criminal investigation of the police shooting, itself. And that is under normal circumstances a state investigation. That's a state crime. And so this is going to have to remain separate.

The Justice Department is trying to make sure that -- while they feel that the state investigation is -- they have no indication that it's not being done fairly, they want to make sure that they show that their investigation is going to be impartial and quite separate. So if everything -- at the end of this, people will see justice will be done -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Evan Perez, reporting live from Ferguson this morning.

In an op-ed for the St. Louis post dispatch, Mr. Holder is speaking directly to the residents of Ferguson writing in part, quote, "We will work with police, civil rights leaders and members of the public to ensure that this tragedy can give rise to a new understanding and robust action aimed at bridging persistent gaps between law enforcement officials and the communities we serve.

Joining me now to talk about this from Ferguson, Van Jones, co-host of CNN's "CROSSFIRE". Hi Van.

VAN JONES, CNN HOST: Hey, how are you.

COSTELLO: I'm good. So do you think Eric Holder can help?

JONES: Well, I sure hope so. You know, it's sending a huge signal to have the top law enforcement agent in the country, this is the top cop basically in the country coming here to meet with the family, to meet with the community, and to let people know, listen, this is not going to be something that gets swept under the rug.

In some ways it's more symbolism than substance. There already are 40 feds here who have been interviewing people. About a hundred people have already been talked to and more are being interviewed. But it just underscores the point that the Department of Justice under the Obama administration is taking this case very, very seriously.

COSTELLO: Van, the mayor of Ferguson, he had some interesting things to say about tensions in that town. Listen.

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JAMES KNOWLES, MAYOR OF FERGUSON, MISSOURI: There's not a racial divide in the city of Ferguson.

TAMRON HALL, MSNBC ANCHOR: According to whom? Is that your perspective or do you believe that that is a perspective of African- Americans in your community?

KNOWLES: That is the perspective of all residents in our city, absolutely. There's 22,000 residents in our community. This has affected about a half mile strip of street in our community.

The rest of our community, the rest of the African-Americans in our community are going about their daily lives, going to our businesses, walking their dog, going to our neighborhood watch meetings. They are concerned for their safety and they know this is not representative of us.

Now there's a very small section of town right here around some housing that has had some problems that we've been reaching out to for some time and we're going to continue to try to reach out and bridge that gap.

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COSTELLO: So Eric Holder is going to a place where there is no racial divide?

JONES: Well, first of all, I don't know if there's a place like that on Planet Earth. I mean you have tensions between different groups all over the world and this is certainly no exception.

But this place in particular, I mean, you know, denial is not just a river in Egypt. You have a town that has recently become majority African-American, more than 60 percent African-American. The police force, 53 police, only three African-Americans. So you already have an imbalance there. That by itself isn't terrible but then you look at the numbers. 92 percent of the people who are stopped in this town by the police are African-American.

So you have a widespread belief this police department kind of has it in for African-Americans, especially when you look at the numbers and it turns out African-Americans when they are stopped are doing less bad stuff than white folks when they are stopped. So this is a deep problem. It's not just -- I mean certainly, the protests are localized but the concern is very widespread.

COSTELLO: Van Jones -- thanks for your insight. I appreciate it.

JONES: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, will the beheading of an American journalist force the Obama administration to change its strategy on ISIS in Iraq? We'll talk about that next.

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COSTELLO: All eyes are on the White House for any response from President Obama regarding the brutal killing of James Foley as the Obama administration works to authenticate the video depicting Foley's beheading.

Joining me now to discuss -- Will Cain, a CNN political commentator and columnist for "The Blaze"; and Maria Cardona, a CNN political commentator and Democratic strategist -- welcome to both of you.

WILL CAIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning.

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Good morning. It's just -- well, you know, Will, a former deputy director of the CIA called this quote, "ISIS' first terrorist attack against the United States" and that's really stuck with me.

CAIN: Yes, it's hard not to feel this is a personal attack, directly on us. You know, ISIS needs to understand something. The United States of America is not a fearful people. We are a coldly analytical people. I would suggest in our lack of desire being invested in Syria or Iraq up to this point is because we neglect to see a strong national security interest. What's in it for us? Why should we get involved?

But war, at its very nature Carol, is political. Meaning we are the check on our own government and what we decide to get involved in. And when you do this, you make every one of us in this country somewhat divorce ourselves from that analytics. We become emotional, we became angry.

I'm angry. And I've been part of this non-interventionist streak. I've been part of these people saying why should we get involved, how does it affect America? Well, you know what -- here's video of how it affects us. So I would suggest ISIS, you can't scare us from staying away but you might just anger us into coming over there.

COSTELLO: Well Maria, supposedly the intent on ISIS' part was to intimidate America into stopping these air strikes against targets within Iraq.

CARDONA: Yes. I completely agree with Will on this. I don't think it's going to work. It's not certainly going to dissuade this president from focusing on getting rid of ISIS, continue to pushing them back, which frankly some of what his strategy that he's put in place has worked and that is why I think ISIS right now is acting in such a cowardly way because they know that so far it has been effective.

The Iraqis and the Peshmerga has taken back the dam in Mosul which was a big, big break for them. This is not your father's terrorist organization. These are horrible, horrible people, and frankly, what this video did was under score that fact. And I think it will -- it will also be used to make sure that everybody that is fighting ISIL right now knows a reason to continue to do so.

So our allies, the U.S., Britain --

COSTELLO: Well, I think the big question though --

CARDONA: -- you know, the Kurds, and everybody there now have more of a reason to fight them.

COSTELLO: Right. But, you know, the core issue here is how much more involved will the United States get? Will President Obama say we're just going to do air strikes and we'll intensify the air strikes? Or will he be forced to move to maybe boots on the ground -- Will?

CAIN: Well, it's hard to look at a video like that and suggest that we just need to push ISIS back. You look at that video you suggest this kind of group needs to be eradicated from the face of the earth. I understand I'm speaking strongly.

Here's -- and you know, I mention war is political. That's this concept that needs to be understood. The President will do, and this President particularly, will do what he feels he has the political will to do. There's been no appetite in the United States to get involved, to go into Syria or Iraq and sort this out. This can change that. ISIS might have changed that with the American populace. We might just have the will because we understand as Maria said, directly who we're dealing with. These people do not need to share this earth with the rest of civilized humanity.

COSTELLO: They have supposedly another American journalist in custody and they are threatening --

CAIN: Right.

COSTELLO: It's just awful.

CARDONA: Yes, its.

COSTELLO: Will Cain, Maria Cardona -- thanks so much.

I'll be right back.

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COSTELLO: St. Louis county prosecuting attorney Robert McCulloch on the hot seat as a grand jury is set to hear evidence in the Michael Brown case. Several people want McCulloch to step aside from any involvement in that grand jury. The governor, Jay Nixon, said it's up to McCulloch. Listen to Robert McCulloch response this morning on a local radio station.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has he, in your opinion, said that?

ROBERT MCCULLOCH, ST. LOUIS COUNTY PROSECUTOR: No. He said nothing. He said "Well, if McCulloch recuse himself and walk away, he can. But I'm not going to ask him." It's nothing. It's the typical Nixon double speak. He says nothing and he's ducking it.

I caught a bit of Senator Chappelle-Nadal's statement and she's right on the money saying he's ducking the issue. He doesn't want to answer the question. Even Attorney General Koster, I asked him directly, straight up and anybody asked him that, I assume he'll have the same answer.

And I said "Look, having declared a state of emergency, does the governor have the authority to remove the prosecutor?" And his answer is simple, one word, yes. And so Nixon needs to step up and say yes I'm going to do that or no I'm not and anyone who wants me off the case, needs to call the governor and express their opinion to him.

And all I want is -- I want to be able to go about my job, to do what I can, you know, to bring as much evidence and bring the truth out on this case. The Brown family deserves that. The community deserves that. And this is one distraction. Governor Nixon -- what is it, it's five to 8:00 -- he can be done with this by 8:00. All he got to do is a simple, yes, he's out, no he's not out. And let's move on.

The Brown family deserves that and the rest of the community deserves it and just make a decision.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grand jury starts today. Do you think by him not answering that question, he undermines the grand jury process and your process?

MCCULLOCH: Well, he undermines everything, and you know, he undermines everything except the cover that he's pulled over his head and that's his sole purpose in this. He said absolutely nothing last night that is in any way, shape or form meaningful and it only aggravates the situation.

We're going to proceed as I've laid out to people until I'm told, if I'm told by the governor that I can't. And the most devastating thing that can happen is if a week from now, a month from now, he decides that he's taking me off this case, you know, everybody is starting over. So stand up, you know, man up. Stand up and say I have this authority, I am not removing McCulloch, I am removing McCulloch and let's get on with this. This family deserves nothing less than that.

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COSTELLO: Confused? Yes. Missouri State Senator Maria Chappelle- Nadal joins me now. So if Mr. McCulloch thinks this is such a controversy issue and it's causing pain to the Brown family why doesn't he just decide himself to step aside?

MARIA CHAPPELLE-NADAL, MISSOURI STATE SENATOR: Well, I can understand exactly what Bob McCulloch is saying. In fact, I totally agree with him. This is not his decision to make. This is the sole decision of Governor Nixon and this is not the first time that the governor has ducked a decision. He typically -- this is his M.O., he only comes in, in the 11th hour. He never wants to be blamed for anything.

A classic example is that he still has not come to ground zero. He was at a state fair at a country music concert when we were being tear-gassed after three days, and only when the world decided to take a look and to focus in on what's happening in Ferguson, Missouri did the governor actually decide oh, maybe I should put this state fair on hold.

So the governor has plenty of examples in which he has not even acted until the last minute. He's the one who needs to buck up. He needs to buck up or step to the side. Do you think that the prosecutor should be removed from the case?

CHAPPELLE-NADAL: Let me tell you, I think -- I've had a good working relationship with Bob McCulloch. I will tell you however my community and the residents that I represent, they don't want him to be on this particular case, and because there's such a feeling of mistrust, historically because of different cases. So only because of my constituents' requests, yes, I do want a special attorney for this case because that's the wish and will of my community.

And so for that reason the pressure has to be on the governor. He has been escaping decisions time and time again and not just this year, but throughout his entire career.

COSTELLO: Well, again, can't prosecutor McCulloch remove himself? Can't he decide that a special prosecutor might be in the best interest of the community?

CHAPPELLE-NADAL: Absolutely, but the authority is in the hands of the governor. It is not in the hands of the prosecuting attorney that we currently have here in St. Louis County. The sole authority is in the hands of the governor and because he is too weak to respond to the call from people in this community and throughout the state and this country, I mean he's just showing the person he's always been, which in my belief is a coward.

COSTELLO: All right, state Senator Maria Chappelle-Nadal. Thank you so much for joining me this morning.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, film maker Spike Lee has some strong opinions on what's going on in Ferguson, along with who he thinks can bring calm to the city.

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SPIKE LEE, DIRECTOR: You know what -- Retired Lieutenant General Russell Honore is the person who can bring order. I just think that the people are over their heads. They haven't had this type of experience and as you know firsthand what General Honore did with Katrina and New Orleans and the Gulf.

So I really think that some of the heat -- I called him up this morning and he told me this morning that everything they are doing is wrong, and I said -- if they called you, would you come? He said he would. We need him there. We need him there. We need him there.

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COSTELLO: From the lips of Spike Lee, with us now, General Russell Honore. So are you willing to get on your white horse and ride into Ferguson?

GENERAL RUSSELL HONORE: Well, a horse would take too long to get there but yes, I would help any way I can, Carol. And hopefully in creating dialogue like this, in a way we help, and I think we saw last night the change in tactics by the police went a long way to keep calm, working with the community, working with the leaders in the community, engaging the people, and integrating the police among the demonstrators.

I think that went a long way last night. So compliments to them for conducting that operation in almost the safe matter until the end.

COSTELLO: Captain Johnson, who's head of the state police, he said there was a turning point last night. Do you see that?

HONORE: Well, you know, you got to go that first mile and I think last night they went the first mile. But this -- this event could go on for days or weeks, depending on the political decisions and whether those drive the people to some confidence that they will get what they want. The people keep asking for justice, fairness, and to reduce the aggressiveness of the police.

And in many cases up to last night, with the exception of one incident where a water bottle came in and the police got pretty aggressive, we've answered everything with more police as opposed to addressing their concerns, just as the previous interview you talked about because the solution to this got to be in the done in the courts and the long-term solution has got to be done in the ballot box.

But for right now the captain needs to understand do we have days or do we have weeks left of civil disobedience popping up periodically as they go through the judicial process? So I think that is what they need to plan for. Is this a short-term event or what is the off ramp to get them out of this state of civil unrest?

COSTELLO: One of the things that really helped Captain Johnson last night was the crowds were smaller. Does that mean for those peaceful protesters, are things sort of burning out for them, are they just tired of going out there every night or do you think they made the conscious decision to stay home so police could, you know, ferret out these people coming in from out of town just to cause trouble?

HONORE: I think it might be all of the above, Carol. Whatever happened, let's say it's the engagement of the police talking to the community leaders and the ministers and the organizers getting together and talking to the community to tap down any civil disobedience, because the civil disobedience is what's causing the problem, when people throw things and break into a store -- that's a crime. I think that has had an impact, as well as the police engaging more and being among the people as opposed to standing back and waiting for the people to come to them.

Last night, they integrated themselves throughout the depth of the demonstration, and I think that served them well.

COSTELLO: General Honore, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

HONORE: Peace, peace.

COSTELLO: I echo that. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"@THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA" after a break.

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