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CNN TONIGHT
Protesters Back on Streets of Ferguson, Missouri
Aired August 20, 2014 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: The crowd of protesters are backing a little bit slimmer every single night and the good thing about that is that the focus of what's going on gets back to where it should be. Instead of on protesting so much, it gets back to the investigation of the shooting of Michael Brown, the police officer, and Michael Brown's family as he is laid to rest next week.
The next hour of CNN TONIGHT starts right now.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
LEMON: Hello, everyone. It is 11:00 p.m. in the east and 10:00 p.m. here in Ferguson, Missouri where we are live as protesters are out again 11 days after Michael Brown was shot to death by Officer Darren Wilson.
I want to welcome back you to CNN TONIGHT. This is our second hour of coverage. I'm Don Lemon.
Attorney general Eric Holder met with Michael Brown's family today amid the start of a grand jury investigation. But the question people here really want answered is, what will it take to get justice?
So let's get right now to my CNN colleagues who are here on the scene in the field. First up, CNN's Jake Tapper. We are going to start with you. Jake, what do you have for us?
JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Don, as you mentioned, the crowds have been slimming. They are probably about 100 or 100 and change people protesting. One of the reasons, obviously, is because time is passing and people are not protesting as much as they were. The other reason, of course, there was a big thunderstorm, as you know.
One bid of conflict disagreement came earlier tonight when there were two counter protesters, individuals objecting to, as far as I can tell, the way that they felt Officer Darren Wilson is being treated unfairly in all this. One of the women held a sign referring to comments made by the democratic governor of the state Jay Nixon calling for a vigorous prosecution of Officer Wilson. Of course, that's premature. There's a grand jury hearing evidence right now. We don't know if there's going to be any sort of prosecution. We don't know here in the public if there's enough evidence to determine whether or not the shooting was, quote/unquote, "good or not." So, as she was clearly objecting to the governor today using the term a vigorous prosecution. But holding up that sign, she was, of course, not very popular in this
crowd. One gentleman tried to rip the sign away from her. He was immediately taken away by the police. I believe he was arrested. She continued on her way but then the presence of her sign and the other protesters with her counter protester with her upset the crowd and there were people swarming around her. Eventually people intervened and separated the crowd from her and drove her away.
That, so far, other than the rainstorm, has been the biggest event so far of this march. It's a relatively quiet night. The police are doing what they did last night, which is instead of one big consolidated show of force at the end of the street. They are spread throughout keeping an eye on all of the crowds, all of the stores, all the citizens here. It seems to be a much better strategy, at least in terms of not angry --
LEMON: So Jake, is the strategy -- is it police strategy, you think, or just that the crowds are slimmer or possibly a combination that things seem to be going so much better?
TAPPER: Well, I think -- I think both. I think that obviously the crowds are smaller. That means they are easier to contain. The clergy is playing a much larger, more pronounce role in the marches in the last couple of days. There is even a clergy tent down the street, individuals in orange shirts marching with protesters. The shirts say "Clergy United" so they can later be identified. They are here to keep the peace between the protesters and the police, but amongst the protesters because obviously there are disagreements, we saw one yesterday, when a protester from out of town very much clearly wanted to have a confrontation with the police. And the Ferguson protesters' community leaders kept that from happening. I know he was from out of town because he declared that he was from out of town and wanted to help. And the Ferguson protesters said we don't need that kind of help. We don't need you in the face of the police officers.
But the police are clearly also taking a different kind of role. They are spread out, like I said, not consolidated. It's much less in your face kind of presence. And it seems to be working much better.
LEMON: Yes. I thought it was significant, Jake, as you pointed out, when we had the pro Darren Wilson protester out there and then it did not result into violence. I thought that was very significant and it was handled very well.
Thank you, Jake Tapper. We'll get back to you.
Now, I want to bring in Shirley Davis. She is a resident of Ferguson, Missouri. Shirley, thank you so much for joining us tonight.
SHIRLEY DAVIS, FERGUSON RESIDENT: You're welcome.
LEMON: What do you make of the protesters now? It is slimmer. There are not as many but then there is not the violence that we had seen.
DAVIS: Not so. But I think that -- I don't want anyone to think that we are going to go away, we're not. But one of my greatest concerns is justice for Michael Brown. And I feel that the evidence -- I understand the prosecuting attorney will be turning over evidence to the grand jury to begin the process of thing if, I guess deciding if the charges would be brought against the officer. Well, my concern is the grand jury, is this the same grand jury who has always nearly 100 percent of the time allowed officers to walk free? Is this the same grand jury that has turned their backs on complaints against the residents, police brutality? Is this the same -- am I going to be represented with this grand jury? So I am concerned.
LEMON: The family attorney -- the Brown family attorneys, they also have some concerns about a grand jury as well because they believe it's a bit too secretive. They'd like it to be a bit more public. But that's not a question. That's not for anyone here to decide upon. If the governor wants to remove the person who is in charge of the grand jury, the prosecuting attorney, then he has to do that. Otherwise, it's an elected official. There's nothing to be done about it. And you are talking about McCulloch and he's already said I'm not resigning.
DAVIS: And you just made a statement that nothing can be done about it. And that is our concern. So where does our justice come if it's not going to come from McCulloch and maybe turning this case over to someone else? Where is the justice? Who's to say what evidence is going to be given to the grand jury? So we have some concerns here.
LEMON: As someone who lives here, and I have to ask this, OK. If it turns out that things don't go way the way want them to go, that the evidence doesn't point in the way that many people here believe that points, if the officer is then not found guilty, what happens in this community? What happens?
DAVIS: Well, I don't think that it is going to be business as usual. I do believe that there is a process going on where they are trying to calm us down to make things go away so that they can resume doing what they have always done. This has to stop. And I don't think waiting until October to see whether or not this officer is going to be charged is going to work.
LEMON: Yes.
DAVIS: Even if it's December, we're not going away.
LEMON: I see you out here. I see many members of the community from sun up to sun down.
DAVIS: We are concerned citizens. This is our community. And disproportionately, we are not represented at all. If you ever -- all you have to do is go to the courts when there is court. There may be 100 African-Americans, 10, 12 blacks. Are blacks the only ones that drive in Ferguson? Are we the only ones that get tickets? Are we the only ones that get targeted? We have to ask that question.
LEMON: That is something that needs to be address and has to be dealt with. Thank you, Miss Davis. Appreciate you joining us here on CNN.
DAVIS: Thank you for having me on. LEMON: Thank you very much.
So the man in charge of keeping the peace here in Missouri, the state highway patrol captain, his name is Ron Johnson. You have seen a lot here in CNN. I rode with him earlier day through the streets of the neighborhood. I want to really pay attention. Sit down and listen to this. Listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Does it make you feel pride about becoming an officer? But as a matter of fact, how did you become an officer?
CAPT. RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI HIGHWAY PATROL: For this very reason, to be a part of this community. And you know, I wasn't a trooper because I actually got stopped for a speeding ticket by a block trooper. And when I walked away from that encounter, I was just impressed with his appearance and his conversation. It was just amazing. I want to go in here. Pull in right here.
How you doing? Hey, how are you doing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're getting ready to leave.
LEMON: Are you guys opened? When are you going to open back up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
LEMON: The captain came to see you.
JOHNSON: Is there anybody in there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I'm the last man standing.
JOHNSON: OK. I thought you guys are barbecuing today?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were. We just (INAUDIBLE). So by 5:00 so we kind of close earlier for the protest.
LEMON: Were you guys open for the public today or were you just barbecuing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we can open inside and brought everything out for everybody.
LEMON: All right. And do you think I've been going around with him and people have been reacting very positively to him. What do you think about the police getting out and actually interacting with the people in this neighborhood? Will that make a difference?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a start, you know, because we don't need this to be a moment. We need it to be a movement like it was a Martin Luther King in the '60s. This is 2014. So, sometimes you have to go back so you can go forward.
LEMON: Well, thank you. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To the police who really care.
LEMON: You wrote a poem to the police who care? Why did you do that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because there are a lot of officers that aren't a problem or they do love us and do care for us, just like they care for their family. And, you know, I wrote a poem against the police too because I deal with it every day of my life. But there are some officers that I learn to love and nurture just like my own brother or sister.
JOHNSON: You said you wrote a poem against the police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
JOHNSON: Do you have that one?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
JOHNSON: And I'm going to post these in my office and I'm going to put this one up and the other one up and after all of this is over, if you ever make it to the highway patrol in St. Charles, I want you to come in and you'll see these posted in my office. I am going to go back to our command office and I'll make copies of this for me. And I am going to post them up at our command center. So we can see what community policing respect can do, that this is what you wrote. When we do the right thing, this is what we can get.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
JOHNSON: OK? I appreciate it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take care.
JOHNSON: I truly mean that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
JOHNSON: OK. I'll get these and put them in a nice frame and I'll definitely have them. So even after I retire probably won't have a bunch of plaques and things hanging in my home, but I will have these and before I go to work I'm going to let my son and daughter to have it. I also want them to understand that the only way we're going to bring this business back is it to protect what's left of it. And so -- and I talked about protecting the citizens but also protecting the businesses. And this does that. And it is my hope that by us contacting the trooper and asking him to do this so we can provide protection, that they get a sense of understanding that law enforcement will protect our businesses. If they move back, we will do all that we can to protect them. That's what we're doing now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All of that perhaps an example of what Ferguson police and police all over the country should be like, should look at what Ron Johnson was doing, the definition of community policing. I want to go to my colleague Stephanie Elam who is out here in the
street. Stephanie, we're hearing word of an arrest?
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And it looks like it happened pretty swiftly, where not too far the road down where you are from, Don. But we saw brew ha-ha that started around the time of that last interview. And as you can see out here, the cars are already gone. They made an arrest. They were looking and it looks like they were looking for somebody for, a separate event, something that didn't happen here and he was recognized. That what's we're getting. And that they came in and arrested him very quickly and then they moved out.
As you can see, they already cleared the road. Just taking a look at what the street looks like, just to give you a wider perspective. You can see the people marching here. But as you can see the street is pretty much open. And the protesters are still making the loop but there are some people who are just standing here. There seem to be some people who are upset about what happened and they are standing here in a group right now discussing it. But all of this, of course, happening while the media was standing here, everyone can see it. But it was quick, it was divisive, the police moved in, there was some few cars and they moves right out after that. Definitely very fast. And I think that's been part of their attack plan. I saw this last night as well. They move in, they arrest one person and then move out very fast, Don.
LEMON: All right. That was Stephanie Elam out on the streets with us. Keep us updated, Stephanie. Thank you very much.
We have got much more live from Ferguson tonight. And coming up, we are going to talk about gun sales. They are soaring in St. Louis area in the midst of a massive show of force by police in the streets of Ferguson. Are police over armed?
Also, what black parents tell their sons to keep them safe? Ten rules for young black men.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: I'm Don Lemon. We're back live now in Ferguson, Missouri. A lot of residents here have criticized police for their nightly show of force. And we're joined by Ben Ferguson and CNN commentator and the host of Ben Ferguson show and by Van Jones, co-host of CNN's "CROSSFIRE."
Ben, we got so many people riled up that we brought you back to get them riled up again. So, Ben, let's talk about this heavily, you know, arm police displaying a massive threat of force against a largely unarmed civilian population in trying to exert their right. Isn't that kind of thing that pro gun activists worry about? Isn't that why we're seeing an increase in gun sales?
BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think it's something to be concerned about. I also think that most of the people that are going out and buying guns are people that are willing to go through a background check that are law-abiding citizens that don't know where these protests are going to end up. I mean, just about every night we've had people that have been shot, and not by the police. And in these protests that have been happening, we see a gang culture that is starting to rise up and even recruitment, as many people have talked about today.
And so when you watch on TV, if I lived in Ferguson, I didn't own a gun, I'm a citizen, a law-abiding citizen, I would probably go buy one to protect my family and my home just in case. And I don't blame that for that at all.
LEMON: Ben, let me ask you this question. I want to post this question.
FERGUSON: Sure.
LEMON: What are the people who you say are the gang members in this community, what if all those people went out and registered, you know, and took training and they all armed themselves into these communities that they see now, do you think some people would change their idea or their stance on guns if all of these people in the community that a lot of people are afraid of suddenly went out and became legal gun owners?
FERGUSON: I'm not afraid of anybody that's a law-abiding citizen. If you are not a felon, if you can pass a background check, I have no problem of you owning a gun. I don't care what color your skin is. I don't care what neighborhood you live in. I don't care what you do for a living. I don't even care if you're unemployed.
If you feel that you need a gun to protect yourself and your family, regardless of where you live or the color of your skin, if you can pass that background check, you should be able to do it. And I have absolutely no problem with anybody owning a gun as long as they can pass that background check.
LEMON: Van, same question to you. Do you think that would change -- go ahead, Van.
VAN JONES, CNN HOST, CROSSFIRE: Well, I think it probably would. But here's what's so interesting. Here you have Mr. Ferguson talking about everybody being so afraid they need to buy guns to defend themselves against the people who are protesting. The only person that's gotten killed is an African-American unarmed teenager who was shot not by protesters but he was shot by law enforcement, left out his body for five, six hours and the people who were -- the witnesses, many of them, still haven't been interviewed.
So I think that the real fear here should be this unchecked acceleration and increase in militarized policing. And one of the dangers I think that we're not talking about, Don, is that if you give more power to a system but don't put more oversight to it, you'll get abuse of power overtime. That's why we have meat inspectors for butchers. That is why we have building inspectors for the construction workers. Any citizen, any human system that doesn't have checks and balances in it is going to be (INAUDIBLE) more towards obstruction.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Go ahead, Ben. Go ahead.
FERGUSON: You can't over look the violence that's taken place since then and to act as if nothing bad has happened. You've had looting, you has stores broken into, you had people are throwing things and they are on fire and exploding at the police. You had shootings around neighborhood.
LEMON: Ben, so far one death.
FERGUSON: Again, people have been shot, all right. Not everybody that gets shot dies. I think we all know that. That's why we have hospitals and doctors to save people's lives, all right.
LEMON: The people who have been shot are members of the community.
FERGUSON: All right. I will say this, the people in the community, if they want to own a gun and they are a law-abiding citizen, why wouldn't we want them to be on a go to have that right to buy it? That's what our founding fathers wanted in these situations.
JONES: First of all, the founding fathers, best I can tell, wanted us to be able to arm ourselves as a part of a well-regulated militia. I don't think many of the people who have guns, whether in NRA or who are on the streets are part of this well-regulated militia. I don't think many of the people who have guns, whether they are the NRA or are on the streets, they are part of the well-regulated militia.
The other thing is this weird thing that is happening on the right where people are saying that they want to arm themselves not against African-Americans scary people, but actually against our government and saying that because the governor has these tanks, they want to have guns. That's a very strange thing. I think if the African- American community started to say what the right wing is saying, that they want guns against America's government, that would be very different than the tea party --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Before you respond, Ben. Hang on, Ben. Go ahead.
This is important as well. I think that, listen that many -- most people, I think, are for the second amendment right. Most people are. I am for that. I think people should be able to protect themselves. But if you're going to be honest about it, I don't think our founding fathers had these automatic weapons and military-style weapons in mind when the second amendment was drafted.
FERGUSON: Are you implying for the police or are you implying for the private citizen? Because the majority of private citizens are not allowed to own fully automatic weapons.
LEMON: It's for anyone. FERGUSON: OK. Well, the gun law says that you and I cannot just
randomly go out and buy automatic weapons. So let's deal with the facts here. A semiautomatic weapon is a gun that you and I are allowed to own. And in different places they have different rules. But to imply that anyone can go out and buy an automatic weapon is just not true, Don.
LEMON: What do you mean anyone can't go out and -- listen, during the theater shooting in Colorado, I was able to go and buy an automatic weapon and I, you know, maybe a shot a gun three, four times in my life. I don't even live in Colorado. I think most people can go out and buy an automatic weapon. I don't understand your argument here.
FERGUSON: What is your definition of an automatic weapon?
LEMON: Well, for me, an automatic weapon something that can shoot off a number of rounds very quickly. I was able to buy an AR-15 within 20 minutes.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Don, you don't know -- in all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. An automatic weapon is when you pull the trigger one time and it continually shoots off one after another after another. A semiautomatic weapon --
LEMON: I can do that with my AR-15. You're getting into semantics here.
FERGUSON: It's not semantics.
LEMON: Hang on, Ben. Let me finish, Ben. But listen, I think you are getting into semantics. Regardless of what you want to call it, an automatic or semiautomatic weapon, I can shoot off a number of rounds.
FERGUSON: There's a difference between breaking the law and not breaking the law.
LEMON: Will you let me finish, Ben? I can shoot off a number of rounds very quickly and I have the capacity to harm someone's life in an instant. I think that's what is important her and that is what we are talking about here. No one is saying we should take away anybody's second-amendment right but that we should examine it. And the question that we started with this, the people on the street, are they over militarized, are they over armed, the police officers as well, are they over militarized, are they over armed? And should we be looking into that? Nobody is arguing the second amendment here. Nobody is arguing the semantics about automatic or semiautomatic. We're talking about context here.
JONES: This very point, I really do -- I have a great deal of concern. What has happened in this community to get back to reality here is that you have people who are now traumatized. When you have a school shooting, everybody knows you've got to flood the zone with counselors, you have got to flood the zone with people to help people process. That does not happen. Not only have you had this young man shot down, not only was his body out there which shocked the community for hours, longer than a dog would be laying in the streets, this young man's body was there, then you have now ten days where law enforcement officers, who people are supposed to be able to rely on for protection, have been leveling their weapons and pointing them at people.
Now, I know for sure that Mr. Ferguson will agree with me, the very first minute of the very first hour of the very first day of a gun safety class, they tell you, do not point a weapon at someone unless you have an intention to shoot them. And yet for a week now you've had grandmothers and clergy with guns pointed at them. That is traumatic and that's the trauma of gun violence and now with police violence.
FERGUSON: Van, I agree with you.
LEMON: We got to go. You have got to be quick.
FERGUSON: I agree with almost everything that you just said. But there are people in the crowd that have also been throwing things that are on fire at police and there have been few of them that has been shot. And you cannot act as if everyone has been perfect in those situations. And there are some police, I do agree with you, have probably crossed the lines and they should be disciplined when they cross that line.
LEMON: Only one. Only one was.
That's why it's a great debate and why everybody gets fired up and that's why we're having this conversation. It will go on and on. Hey, guys, thank you. Appreciate both of you.
Up next here, advice for young men of color in case they encounter the police. We are going to take a look art ten rules for young black men. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We're live tonight in Ferguson, Missouri.
I want you to ask any black parent. If you ask any black parent and they'll tell you how important it is to have what is called the talk with their son, advice on how to act and speak to police officers to prevent an encounter from turning violent.
Now, there is hope to get that conversation going now through CNN's Poppy Harlow with that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As questions swirl around the Michael Brown shooting, could a controversial lesson save lives when young people in America, especially minority youth, are stopped by police? The creator of this diagram says yes. Educator, David Miller, founded
it the dare to be king project. As part of the curriculum, he calls it life and survival skills focused on minority youth.
DAVID MILLER, DARE TO BE KING PROJECT, CREATED DIAGRAM: These rules have literally saved my life.
HARLOW: This is Miller's diagram. Ten rules of survival if stopped by the police. First, be polite and respectful when stopped by the police. Keep your mouth closed, he says. It also says don't tender any circumstance, getting into an argument with the police. And it says, even if you believe that you are innocent, do not resist arrest.
MILLER: It's for any child but when I designed the poster, my main targeted audience was black and Latino kids because we know disproportionately black and Latino kids are stopped by the police. There are a lot of young people in this country who are just mad, angry, and frustrated and often times their initial response to being stopped by the police can determine what the next course of action is.
HARLOW: Miller says he's been stopped in numerous cities by police.
MILLER: Some of it comes down to just being black and male in America.
HARLOW: He was arrested as a teen for fighting. As a father, he's taught his three children these rules.
MILLER: The vast majority of police officers, good men and women, patrolling the streets of America who want to get home to their families safely. Our ultimate goal is to make sure that young people can live through a police stop.
THOMAS FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Those are good rules of citizenship.
HARLOW: But CNN law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes takes issue with some of it.
FUENTES: The premise that the police are somehow likely to bring death upon you, you know, not just that it's possible but it's likely if you don't know how to survive the encounter, I think it's a terrible premise in the first place.
HARLOW: 17-year-old Malik Lynch says he was taught something similar to Miller's diagram in high school.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without it, I don't know where I'd be.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just to get him home safe by any means necessary. And if this literature could help them in any way, shape, or form, I'm all for it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this should be a class taught on how to be respect -- to respect the police. I think personally that the police should have a class on how to treat us as well. HARLOW: Attorney general Eric Holder this spring cited a recent study
showing 49 percent of black men in the U.S. are arrested at least once by the time they are 23.
LZ GRANDERSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It's an ongoing conversation that's been happening, you know, for minorities of African-Americans for centuries. And so no, I'm not surprised to see that diagram. We haven't really addressed the heart of the issue that keeps having these conversations come up in the first place.
HARLOW: Until then, parents, teachers, and teenagers will have to decide if this is a lesson worth learning.
Poppy Harlow, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right, Poppy, thank you very much.
So sit back and it's time for another one of our conversations here. Joining us now is Page Pate, criminal defense attorney and constitutional attorney. And Lisa Bloom is with us. She's a legal analyst at avo.com and she's also author of "the inside story of Trayvon Martin injustice and why we continue to repeat it." Also here, Chris Chestnut, an attorney who represented the family Jonathan Pharrell, the unarmed former college football player who was shot dead by police last year and then John Gaskin, a national board member of the NAACP in St. Louis.
We got lots to talk about here. So I want to get to all of you and what you make of this last piece. Because like it or not, the reality is that there -- it seems to be a big different -- different rules when it comes to black men.
Page, starting with you first, what do you make of this card and these rules that some people are having, this guy suggests that you keep it in your wallet in order to not be hurt or shot by police?
PAGE PATE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE, CONSTITUTIONAL ATTORNEY: Well, I suppose, Don, it's a good idea to always be respectful when you're approached by a law enforcement officer. But what people do have to remember is that we have an absolute right to resist an unlawful arrest. So don't surrender your citizenship simply because you're being encountered or you have an encounter with a police officer but don't try to do anything sudden. Don't run away immediately, don't try to use force, make quick gestures. I think that's good advice not just for an African-American kid but for white kids, Latino kids, anyone that encounters law enforcement.
LEMON: So there was another police-involved shooting in St. Louis yesterday. We saw what happened. Police immediately held a press conference and then released details of what happened in that particular situation. Today, this video was released. Listen and then we'll talk about it.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING) LEMON: Page, to you quickly. Do you think that was justified, the shooting?
PATE: Well, remember Don, we can't look at things in hindsight and in a slow motion video to determine if what the officer did was right. When you're trying to evaluate whether the officer is using excessive force, you have to put yourself in the officer's shoes at the time.
Now, obviously, this person didn't have a gun. Was the officer in immediate, imminent danger? At that point, I think that's tough to say. I think this is a close call. But how long do we wait? Does the officer have to stand there and not shoot until the person wielding a knife gets three, four feet away from him? It's a tough call that the cops have to make.
LEMON: Let's talk about the other major legal news tonight. Eric Holder was in Ferguson today. What would it take for the department of justice to charge Wilson with a civil rights violation, Lisa? What needs to be proven?
LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST, AVO.COM: Well, it would have to be proven is that Mike Brown's simple right to walk down the street without being the victim of police abuse was violated. And I have to take issue with the last comment. What I saw in that video was an outrageous abuse of police power. There's a man with his hands down at his side walking towards two police officers, both of whom are armed and have a police car. You mean to tell me the only option was to shoot and kill that man? If that's so, then we have to re-evaluate police procedures in America.
Why wasn't a nonlethal type of force used, if some kind of force was necessary? I mean, if we didn't have this video, I'm sure we would be hearing that this mentally ill or mentally challenged man was charging the police as is accused in the Mike Brown case. I think this video is appalling and it shows really how far the police are going in shooting to kill when it's absolutely unnecessary.
LEMON: John Gaskin, do you think this is something that the justice department will touch on? Obviously, they are dealing with the Mike Brown situation. But as the video turns out from St. Louis and everything that you're seeing across the country, you met with the attorney general today. Was that even part of your conversation?
JOHN GASKIN, NATIONAL BOARD MEMBER, NAACP ST. LOUIS: Well, it wasn't a part of our conversation. But I can tell you this much. As volatile as this situation here is on the ground and as much as at stake here in St. Louis and in terms of interaction with law enforcement, they can't afford not to take a look into this.
With our meeting with Eric Holder today, it's quite clear that civil rights and justice in general is a priority for attorney general Eric Holder as well as how police departments are dealing with young people in particular, especially BMWs, as we said at the NAACP, Black Man Walking.
And so, it is a major concern. It should be a major concern and it shouldn't be a major concern right here locally. It should be a major concern nation nationally. Because what took place yesterday, what took place last week with Mike Brown isn't just happening here, it's happening all over the country. You know, as Jesse Jackson said, there's a Ferguson near you. It just so happen that Ferguson, Missouri, blew up before others did.
LEMON: So Chris Chestnut, I've read several accounts that the shooting of Mike Brown and the protests happening, and I again, you know, it may seem odd to a lot of our viewers, that's a perfect recruitment tools for gangs and for people who want to be lawless. What do you make of that?
CHRIS CHESTNUT, ATTORNEY, THE CHESTNUT FIRM: I think it can be a recruitment tool for law enforcement. I think is a great opportunity for leadership, not only in Ferguson within Missouri and other communities throughout the country to recruit young minorities, people who can empathize. Because as the person who said earlier, who has said that you can lawfully resist arrest. I'm a lawyer and I know my rights. I cannot realistically say that I would survive a lawful resist to arrest. That reality doesn't exist for me even though I'm an attorney.
So there are different realities and therefore there are various to empathy. And these officers cannot understand what it's like. They cannot communicate with this. They don't come into our community until they go to work and murder us. And we just saw a murder live on camera. I'm concerned.
LEMON: Yes. Our conversation continues right after the break. Don't go away anyone.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Welcome back, everyone.
A police officer has been suspended for pointing his gun and threatening protesters last night. I want to get to my legal experts to weigh in on that now. Back with me is Page Pate, Lisa Bloom, Chris Chestnut and John Gaskin. I want you guys to listen to this. I want to play that video and then we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My hands are up. My hands are up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to kill him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's your name, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go (bleep) yourself. Hello, officer, go (bleep) yourself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So this happened on Tuesday shortly before midnight. The statement -- this statement I'm about to read you was quickly released by St. Louis county police. It says "the unified command strongly feels these actions are inappropriate and not indicative of the officers who have worked daily t daily to keep the peace. The St. Ann police officer involved in the incident has been relieved of duty and suspended indefinitely.
So Lisa, listen. Has Ferguson become an excuse for bad behavior by police officers?
BLOOM: It's shocking to me that in the midst of a protest of police being abusive with weapons, we have a police officer being abusive with his weapon and it's not the only one. We saw police officers a few nights ago on top of the tank with an automatic weapon trained on peaceful protesters. These police officers are simply proving night after night that what the people in the streets are demonstrating about is true.
LEMON: And Chris, on the other side as well, has Ferguson become an excuse for the criminal community to commit crimes or, worse, has it become a gang recruitment tool as mentioned in the last segment?
CHESTNUT: No. Again, this is an opportunity for the government and law enforcement to reach out into the community. This is underscoring a larger issue, underemployment, under-education. You have 53 police officers in a town of 20,000 people? What is going on with the city government there? Where are the resources?
This underscores an opportunity, in my opinion, to re-invest in this community and equal parity. I mean, this community looks like modern day apartheid.
LEMON: Page, are there repercussions of these protests that are going to last long after the television cameras have gone home, long after the media has left? What happens here in Ferguson?
PATE: Well, Don, I certainly hope that people are going to remember this. I mean, as much as I might say in defense of officers and I have defended several who have been charged in excessive force case, this kind of conduct does happen all the time everywhere. And just its cases like this that really focuses people's attention on it. But it's a national problem. And I do think we need better training. I think we need better screening for people we give badges and guns too. And hopefully the attention that the media is paying to this particular case will carry over. And other departments will look at it and perhaps we'll see some better conduct in the future.
LEMON: Mr. Gaskin, you know, officers -- many officers feel that they are under a microscope and that they are getting a bad rap for some bad police officers. Do you think that is a fair assessment of what's happened here?
GASKIN: Well, one thing that will want people to know is we don't want to make assumptions. You know, it's like a bag of apples. You've got some good ones and you've got some bad ones. And ones that certainly need some work.
We believe there are people here who really do care but we do believe that there are quite a few that need additional training and that need to be re-evaluated in terms of what their career is. You know, just last night I was there on the ground for the first time actually at night. And let me tell you, the way that I was being spoken to by some of the law enforcement officers on the ground was quite startling. Because if they were speaking to me near a intermediary area, I can only imagine how they were speaking to some of these young men and women that are on the ground.
You saw the video yesterday of the officer that was pointing his rifle at clergymen, at older people using various profanity words to them. You know, speaking to them as if they were almost animals. That's simply unacceptable and I simply believe he should be terminated for those actions.
LEMON: All right. Thank you to all of my guests. I appreciate you joining us. We're live here in Ferguson, Missouri, tonight. And we're going to be right back with more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. DEVAL PATRICK (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I'm sick of it. I'm sick of -- I'm sick of unarmed black men being shot by police. I'm sick of the lawlessness on the streets. I think everybody is just tired of when are we going to get through with this kind of -- this kind of things. I'm hopeful with the attorney general of the United States going out that federal law enforcement will be fully engaged and --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That was Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick earlier today speaking on the situation here in Ferguson, Missouri. I want to check in now with my colleague Jake Tapper.
Jake, this is, you know, your expertise. The politics playing out across the country, all the way to the White House, to the halls of Congress to the White House.
TAPPER: Yes, although I have to say, politicians perhaps not surprisingly have been playing this fairly cautiously, especially because so few details have come out in any sort of comprehensive way about the actual shooting of Michael Brown. We still don't have the side of the story of Officer Wilson. We still have no idea if there is going to be any charges brought against him.
So you have heard and there's been criticism of this. A lot of silence from leading politicians about this specific issue. You hear him say they want to wait for the investigation to come in. There have been some politicians that have come out and spoken about this issue. But mainly they've been African-American, such as Governor Patrick of Massachusetts, such as congressman John Lewis of Georgia, the civil rights icon who was here a few days ago marching.
Politicians don't want to get on the wrong side of an issue. And there is a concern that coming out on one side and then all of a sudden all of these details come out. Then they look like they were jumping on a bandwagon that was factually incorrect.
LEMON: Yes. I thought it was important, Jake, you started out by saying, I'm sick and tired and then he goes on with the rest of his statement. But it's interesting that he's getting out in the front of this even though all of the facts of the investigation is not finished playing out.
Jake Tapper is out on the streets of Ferguson, Missouri. Jake, thank you. We Appreciate that. We'll be back here live from Ferguson, Missouri.
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LEMON: So many times with these new stories we get distracted by the picture, the pictures of people doing the wrong thing, the protests. We got distracted by semantics, automatic, semiautomatic weapons. What really matters is that we have a police officer and a family of a dead teenager, both fighting for justice.
