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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

Foley's Death Raises Questions About Obama Administration; Obama's Evolution Over Use Of Military Force; Eric Holder Arrives In Ferguson, Missouri; Grand Jury Hearing Evidence In Brown Case; What Will Happen Tonight In Ferguson?

Aired August 20, 2014 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PETER BAKER, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK TIMES: Yes, that information is still coming out, I think.

I think it does raise questions what could have been done in the last week. You know, it's a terrible situation for any White House to be in, in which basically they're being blackmailed over policy with an American life.

And, you know, you didn't hear the president talk about the other hostages today because I don't think they want to elevate that. There's something that weighs on any president, knowing that the decisions you make may cost citizens of your own country very dearly.

So we don't know a lot about what's happened in the weeks since that first warning came. I think we will learn more about that in the coming days, but you can imagine what that does to the people inside and the top of a government.

TAPPER: Peter, you and I have been watching President Obama evolve when it comes to using force over the last several years. He came into the White House.

He, in the view of some, was influenced by generals, sent 100,000 troops -- he didn't send 100,000, but there were ultimately 100,000 troops in Afghanistan. Since then, he's pulled back a little, I believe, and those close to him in the White House believe in terms of his willingness to use U.S. force.

He seems willing to use it here against ISIS, but he also is somebody that has many mixed feelings about this sort of thing.

BAKER: Well, I think he does.

I think he has experienced this himself and looked at the experience of other presidents and said when has it worked out really well for us when we have involved ourselves in other countries the way some people would like him to do? And Libya didn't work out as well with him as he thought it might when he agreed with the advice of some people to go ahead and take on Moammar Gadhafi.

He looks at Syria and sees that as being a terrible mess, one that America might not be able to actually influence for the better, and certainly might get it into a quagmire.

Iraq is a little different. Iraq is something obviously we have had a lot of history with, particularly the last 10 or 12 years. And he did feel the need in this case to go ahead and intervene militarily. So far, 84 airstrikes since he decided to do so, 14 in the last 24 hours alone, and so, you know, it's a different case, but even here he's trying to apply a balance.

It's not that they're going to be the main actors taking on ISIS. They want to help empower this new emerging government in Baghdad be the main force taking them on with airpower and logistical and intelligence help.

TAPPER: Peter Baker of "The New York Times," thank you so much, as always.

Coming up next, the nation's top cop meets the man in charge of keeping the peace in Ferguson, Missouri, but will Attorney General Eric Holder's time here do anything at all to ease the tensions between police and protesters?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I am Jake Tapper.

And we are live from Ferguson, Missouri. Attorney General Eric Holder arrived here today and made a pledge to the people of this community that the federal investigation into the police shooting of that unarmed black teenager would be -- quote -- "fair and independent."

He's also meeting with the family of 18-year-old Michael Brown to hear their concerns about how this investigation might play out.

Joining me now with more on that meeting is Brown family attorney Anthony Gray.

Mr. Gray, the family has met with the attorney general? How did it go?

ANTHONY GRAY, ATTORNEY FOR FAMILY OF MICHAEL BROWN: Well, they haven't met.

TAPPER: Oh, they not. OK.

GRAY: They have not met, but they plan to meet.

TAPPER: What do they want to say? What do they want him...

GRAY: I think that Attorney General Holder is leading the discussion, so I think he's going to start off with sentiments that he wants to express. And then it will be a back and forth from there.

TAPPER: Is there anything specifically that the family wants, though? For instance, are they concerned about the prosecutor, Mr. McCulloch? Many in the community, as you know, have suggested that he may be biased or he has a bad record when it comes to African-Americans being killed and prosecuting their killers.

GRAY: Sure.

TAPPER: Do they have concerns?

GRAY: Well, Jake, at a minimum, I think they want to be assured that the process will be fair, it will be transparent, which is what they have been calling for from the very beginning. So they're hopeful that this meeting will add that reassurance that they have been looking for from day one.

TAPPER: There are two competing imperatives when it comes to the grand jury. One is, people want -- they want information, they want satisfaction, and they want justice.

But when you're a prosecutor -- and you know this from being an attorney -- it might take a little while.

GRAY: Sure.

TAPPER: And we heard that the grand jury might go until mid-October. That's not going to be fast enough for a lot of people, but the prosecutor's office says, if we want to do it right, if we want to do a thorough job and look at all the evidence, it is going to take that long.

What does the family think?

GRAY: Well, the family would like a more expeditious result, just like many in the public do.

But they also understand at the same time, there's probably a lot of information that the grand jury has to review. In their estimate, it shouldn't take very long to draw a conclusion. But you have 12 people in the room, and sometimes deliberating oftentimes takes a while to get to a conclusion.

TAPPER: Do they not believe the prosecutor when he says, look, if we want to do it thoroughly and fairly -- you understand this. It takes a while to build a case.

If they are -- and I have no idea if they are -- but if they are trying to build a case against officer Wilson, you don't do it slipshod. You really -- you get one chance to go after a police officer.

GRAY: Jake, let me make this clear, that we have thought from the very beginning that the prosecutor could have looked at the evidence and filed his own information.

He didn't necessarily have to go to a grand jury. And that decision would have been made a long time ago. So now that we have injected the grand jury into the process, now we get into these timetables that you're talking about, because you're talking about 12 people now looking at all the information vs. one person and making a decision based off of what they see.

TAPPER: The funeral is going to be Monday.

GRAY: Yes, sir.

TAPPER: I believe it's open to the public?

GRAY: It is.

TAPPER: I believe Reverend Al Sharpton is going to be speaking?

GRAY: He will be.

TAPPER: Is the family at all concerned about protests, demonstrations, the kinds of things we have seen in the streets of Ferguson, happening at such a somber and hallowed place?

GRAY: Sure. Sure.

The family does not expect any type of violence, any kind of outbreaks, any kind of looting or rioting, those little isolated pockets of incidents that you have seen over the course of days. There may be some people there demonstrating and supporting the family.

You know, you kind of expect that, but the kind of unrest that involves the police, they do not expect to see that at all.

TAPPER: Have you or Mr. Crump or the family been involved at all in talking to the people who are leading protests?

And I know you and the family have made appeals for peace and appeals for calm. We saw a lot of calm last night until the very end of the night. And I was there, and I can tell you, there were protesters that were absolutely looking for trouble, absolutely looking for trouble.

GRAY: Right. Sure. Sure.

TAPPER: Has the family reached out specifically, or is it more just like a general call on TV for peace?

GRAY: Well, it's been a general call for peace on television.

In addition to myself, attorney Daryl Parks and Ben Crump have been down to what we are referring to as ground zero and have spoken to several community leaders, overwhelmingly in support of the call for peace and calm.

Those individuals that are creating what we want to call unrest and havoc is a demographic, quite frankly, I don't think I can communicate with. They're not identified as a group. So, it's really hard to find out who those people are to make that kind of a personal appeal.

TAPPER: Yes. It didn't look like a group to me. It looked like a lot of kind of...

GRAY: Isolated situations.

TAPPER: Isolated individuals.

Thank you so much, Anthony Gray.

GRAY: Thank you, Jake.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Good to see you, as always. Appreciate it.

GRAY: All right.

TAPPER: Coming up next: It could take months before a grand jury decides whether to indict officer Darren Wilson for the killing of Michael Brown, so what happens in the meantime?

Plus, he's trying to keep the peace by appealing directly to protesters to work with police, but just with a few hours before night falling here in Ferguson, is anyone listening to this pastor?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD live from Ferguson, Missouri. Protesters here have been demanding the immediate arrest of the officer who shot and killed an unarmed black teenager, but the reality is the decision about that could be months before that decision is made, whether to even prosecute Darren Wilson.

St. Louis County Prosecutor Bob McCullough confirmed that a grand jury has started hearing evidence today in the Michael Brown shooting, but McCullough admits it might take until mid-October to lay out the entire case and look at all of the evidence.

That evidence includes not only forensics and toxicology reports, but the varying accounts from witnesses who are on the scene that day. Let's talk now to Paul Butler, he is a law professor at Georgetown University Law School and a former federal prosecutor. Professor, good to see you as always.

A lot of the witness accounts that we've heard have been similar. There have been varying discrepancies including reports about whether Brown was running away when he was initially shot, which an autopsy by the family seems to refute.

Given all these discrepancies, does that make the witness testimony less credible in the eyes of a grand jury?

PAUL BUTLER, LAW PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: It's really hard to bring a case by cop because jurors only think they're doing their job even if they made a mistake. They've got difficult jobs to do. So when we have conflicting testimonies, one person is saying this, another person is saying that, does that create reasonable doubt? It may in the minds of some jurors. So is that an impediment to prosecution? No. But does it make more difficult? Does that mean that the grand jury investigation needs to be slow and deliberate and careful? Absolutely yes.

TAPPER: So Officer Wilson has been invited we're told to appear before this grand jury. If you were his attorney, would you suggest that he accept the invitation? Is it in his best interest?

BUTLER: That's not going to happen. First of all, the grand jury is the tool of the prosecutor primarily because the defense attorney isn't allowed inside. So there's no defense attorney who is going to allow his client to go and answer questions about a crime that he suspected of without the attorney being bless are present.

It's simply not in his best interest. It doesn't matter whether he is innocent or guilty. It's not a good idea for him to go in that grand jury by himself.

TAPPER: You just heard one of the attorneys for the family, Anthony Gray saying that the family would like a decision by this grand jury, a ruling, expeditiously, mid-October sounds too late for them. Is it typical in a case like this for the grand jury to take months?

BUTLER: You know, this is a high-profile, racially charged case and if there is confidence in the prosecutor people think he's acting in good faith and no one should be concerned about how long it's taking. A good prosecutor uses the grand jury to rehearse the trial.

He has an opportunity to hear from all of the witnesses and he can anticipate the defense. The concern here is that people simply don't have confidence in this prosecutor.

TAPPER: There have been calls, as you know, for the Prosecutor McCullough to step down for a number of reasons. One of them is because his father was killed 50 years, his father was a police officer, by an African-American man.

Another because he has very deep ties to the police department. You heard at the top of the show, St. County Executive, Mr. Dooley say that he just doesn't like his record and he doesn't go after killers of African-Americans. There has been a call for a special prosecutor to be appointed. Do you think that's necessary?

BUTLER: Look, Jake, it's not only about justice in a case like this, it's about the appearance of justice. Every prosecutor has friends who are cops and prosecutors work with them every day and this is a man who has had had family members employed by the police department including his mom, his dad, his cousin, his uncle, his brother.

Again, he defended the police even the way that they were responding to the protesters, which I don't think anyone thinks that that was an inspiring moment in law enforcement. He seems unusually protective. It doesn't mean that he can't fairly prosecute a cop.

But in terms of the appearance of justice, why not step aside? Because at this point, if he doesn't bring the case, they're going to be concerned. But even if he brings the case and loses it, people are going to say he didn't try hard enough.

So I think for the appearance of justice once again, it might be better for someone else to step in.

TAPPER: Professor Paul Butler, thank you so much, as always.

Coming up, night time here in Ferguson, Missouri. It's always fairly tense. With just a few hours before darkness sets in, what are community leaders expecting tonight? We'll asked a local pastor coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. In just a few hours, the sun will begin to set here in Ferguson, Missouri. The big question is will we see a more subdued atmosphere like the one I witnessed last night between police and protesters until the very end or will it revert to a night of tear gas and violence.

Let's bring in Robert White, pastor of the Peace of Mind Church of Happiness and of course, CNN's Van Jones. Pastor White, last night you said it was a frustrating night. It was peaceful, but it was frustrating.

PASTOR ROBERT WHITE, PEACE OF MIND CHURCH OF HAPPINESS: The biggest frustration that we're having is our communication efforts between those who are in charge and being able to relay the information to the protesters.

TAPPER: Those in charge, the protest leaders or the police?

WHITE: The police. Every day we come out here and we have to figure out what the new rules are.

TAPPER: They do make new rules every day.

WHITE: We're not being debriefed and we're trying our best to help the police officers. So we're trying to figure out how can we relay the information to the protesters so we can understand going about this peacefully?

TAPPER: Van, you said that this incident in Ferguson and the protests are transforming a generation of activists and advocates. How so?

VAN JONES, CNN CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": First of all, it's not just Ferguson, really. It's a nationwide, this is maybe the fourth African-American young man, unarmed choked to death, shot to death and you have this police violence that's starting to wake young people up and you also have the street violence.

Chicago has been bloody and you have a generation being squeezed now between street violence and police violence. We have to do something and we can't keep going the same way. The question is simply this. Young people can sometimes become so alienated and you're trying to express yourself for the first time politically that can push you to the point of being more will alienated.

I think this generation is on the bubble right now and I've been very encouraged by seeing groups like color of change, million hoodies, the local group, more organization of black struggles telling people you can make a difference and this is not like you're being treated.

You withdraw and become so alienated and you can make things worse, to some of the young leaders here. The ones that make the mistakes get all of the attention and they get all of the media loop and the ones who are meeting and strategizing they're never heard of. Let's praise the young people that are doing right.

TAPPER: Yes. There's news today from the prosecutor that the prosecution, the grand jury might not end its work until mid-October. Are we going to see protest every night from now until Officer Wilson is sentenced? They might return a different decision altogether, but I mean, is this going to go on for months and months?

WHITE: I think one of the things that has to happen that what we're pushing for is to galvanize the leader from this very set. There are various leaders out there and we have to have a debriefing of leaders so we can come together for a common agenda as to what our goals are.

We believe in the Democratic process. We're glad that the government is involved and we have to understand that what my team of clergy are doing is we're responsible for the peace that goes on at night and so we have to find those other folks that are dealing with the loss side of it.

The other folks dealing with the displacement of the families and we need to come together and hash out what is our immediate plan and what's our long-term goal and what does that look like and we can communicate that with the officers.

JONES: He's too courageous to say, but I will say, people are traumatized. When you have a school shooting. Everybody understands you have to rush in and make sure people get help had, get support. You saw a young man lose his life, whatever you think of that young man.

He was left out in the front street, in front of the community for hours and hours. You don't see that happen to dogs anymore in America and that really shocked people and they come out to express themselves and you have people looking at guns pointed at them, not for a minute, but for day after day and day, and tear gas.

This has traumatized the community. I know the folks that have been here for years. Their voice gets higher and higher and that's a sign of trauma. There has to be some counseling that needs to be done.

TAPPER: Pastor Rob White, Van Jones, thank you so much. That's it for THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. Now we go to "THE SITUATION ROOM." I'll be back in one hour -- Brianna.