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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Ukrainian Crash Scene May Have Been Purposefully Contaminated by Pro-Russian Rebels; Putin and Cabinet May Be Panicking; Investigators Discover Largest Intact Piece of Flight 17; Investigating MH17; MH17 Victims

Aired July 24, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: There's straight cuts which you never see at an accident site. These were straight cuts made by saws, straight cuts made by equipment and then moved around. You actually see tracks in the ground of heavy equipment moving parts and pieces around.

I find it difficult to believe that they could actually hide the fact that it was a Buk missile. I'm not sure why they'd be trying to hide things, but it appears to me that they might just be taking things away to stovepipe evidence so that it can't be proven or delay the investigation.

LIEUTENANT COLONEL RICK FRANCONA (RETIRED), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: And we're starting to see comments from different rebel factions. You know, there are different factions operating in this same area. And now you see one blaming the other.

So I don't think they're going to hide the fact that yes, it was a missile that shot it down. I think everybody accepts that now. Now the question is, who did it? It wasn't us. It was the other guys. And so we're going to see these recriminations.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Right. One rebel leader actually talked to Reuters, saying that they did, in fact, have a Buk missile system.

He then walked that back because all along they've been saying, well, look, we didn't even have that sort of a system. But there has been video evidence and a lot of other evidence as well.

There's still a lot, though, that could be learned from the wreckage itself.

SOUCIE: There is, really. There's quite a bit that could still be learned. And looking at how it was broken up, it would give us some idea as to what the experience was on the aircraft.

That sounds a little bit morose, but it's important to know for the families. This the first question I get at an accident site from a family is, did they suffer? What did they go through?

And when I try to hedge it or say it nicely, they say no, I want to know exactly what my loved one went through. And I'm not sure -- I'm not a psychologist, but there's something that clicks inside of them once they understand that, and that begins their road to healing, their acceptance of what's gone on.

COOPER: It's very possible that there may never be a field investigation, certainly the likes of which -- up to any kind of international scale.

I mean, it's looking like the best that could be hoped for right now is just making sure that as many of the victims as possible are actually recovered, because it seems like there's fighting still in the area, they're still shooting down Ukrainian military aircraft in the area.

It's very possible that this may not actually get investigated on the ground.

FRANCONA: It looks to me like they would like to put this behind them so they can get on with their fighting and their own political goals. This, I think we all believe it was a tragic accident, and it just gets in the way of what they're trying to do.

They would like to just get it out of there and move on, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks, and you saw how, I think, with what grace and dignity the Dutch handled this, the way they're treating it as compared to what's going on in the Ukraine.

COOPER: It's been extraordinary to witness what's been going on in the Netherlands, juxtaposed to the horror over the last several days. Colonel Francona, thank you. David Soucie as well.

We're seeing new pictures from the crash site. I'll talk with a member of the European security team monitoring conditions in eastern Ukraine ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back. Western powers are turning up the heat on Vladimir Putin. He continues to deny any involvement in bringing down Flight 17.

Some analysts say what looks like political posturing may actually be a sign that he and his cabinet are panicking. CNN's Brian Todd has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bursts of white smoke, observers on the ground clearly agitated, at the scene of burning wreckage armed men in fatigues pick up fragments of what's purportedly a Ukrainian fighter jet shot down in eastern Ukraine

Not yet confirmed -- whether this was the work of pro-Russian rebels inside Ukraine or Russian forces themselves and whether Russian president Vladimir Putin knew about or approved the operation.

If Putin's behind the attack, just days after the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, the question, what's driving his aggression?

JOHN HERBST, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His objectives are preferably to take control, at least informally, of a large swath of Ukrainian territory but he's failed with that. If he can't do that his lesser objective is to destabilize portions of Ukraine's east.

TODD: But some observers say Putin and his cabinet are in panic mode with intelligence pointing to Russian involvement in the Malaysia Air shoot down.

And with crippling sanctions possibly imminent they say Putin is deflecting blame towards Ukraine and NATO accusing the alliance of building its forces in eastern Europe to threaten Russia.

A NATO official scoffs at that but Putin does seem to be using NATO's actions as a rationale for his military posture.

VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA: The scale of the training and preparedness is also increasing. It is important to prepare our defenses on schedule.

TODD: Body language of a guy who's panicking?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I don't think he's panicking, but he is in really a hard place. He has enormous pressure coming from the international community right now and domestically, he's under pressure.

TODD: Pressure from Russia's business elites to avoid more sanctions; pressure from Russian nationalists to get tougher on Ukraine. So if he's not panicking, analysts say, Putin's at least in his judo stance.

DOUGHERTY: You can almost see it. His balancing -- he does this when he talks. He is a judo expert, and he is prepared, he's ready to parry, thrust and protect Russia from what he expects are going to be the threats.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Back again with Rick Francona and safety analyst David Soucie. Colonel, it's interesting, talking about Russian involvement here and Russia denying it, putting it back on Ukraine, ultimately it may be possible to find out who the actual personnel who were manning this missile system through human intelligence, through trying to turn groups on each other.

FRANCONA: Right. We already have the two groups kind of pointing fingers at each other. What you do is you find a disaffected person in one of these groups.

Now, you know not everybody gets along there, so there are going to be people willing to talk, but you have to find them. That's very difficult to do in what we call a denied area where you don't have access to it directly, but you can do it from the outside. It's a long involved process, so this won't happen tomorrow, it won't happen next week, but it can happen if we're interested in doing it. And I think that -- I think common decency demands we find out what happened.

COOPER: In some way it's almost like police work and sort of getting one criminal to rat on another.

Given that this is a war zone, people may be taken captive. If Ukrainian government forces retake control of this area, people may want to be bargaining for, you know, a position.

FRANCONA: The difference is in police work, you generally have a hammer. You've got the threat of arrest, you've got the threat of incarceration, and you've got authority.

When you're doing intelligence work, you've got to convince people to do this because they want to, and you have to give them a reason to cooperate with you. And as an intelligence officer, you have to figure out what that is.

Someone in one of these groups is willing to talk to us.

COOPER: Appreciate you, again, interesting perspective.

Victims' families are facing a new threat. There are reports that thieves at the crash site stole victims' personal effects including credit cards. Find out how families are being advised to now protect themselves.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: We're learning this morning that a new piece of downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was discovered by investigators today, and it could be the largest recognizable intact part of the plane to survive the crash.

This is a photo taken today of a large chunk of the plane's fuselage found in a wooded area near the main crash site. It's been a week since the plane crashed, and there's still plenty of debris and remains to be collected and analyzed.

More startling, there may still be human remains inside the crash zone exposed to the elements, waiting to be recovered. Though many consider it hallowed ground, the site reportedly has attracted looters, possibly perpetrators trying to tamper with evidence.

Today Australia's prime minister said his country has sent 50 police officials to London to join what may become an international effort to secure the site.

Joining me now from Donetsk, Ukraine, is Michael Bociurkiw. He's the spokesman for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, which is monitoring the area there.

Michael, I appreciate you being with us and I appreciate the work you are doing. It is extraordinarily dangerous and extraordinarily difficult. First of all, tell me about this large intact part of the plane that you saw today.

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, OSCE SPOKESMAN: Thanks, Anderson.

Well, we've been here for almost a week now and we've covered a lot of area. But what really was, I would say, a jaw-dropping discovery today was that big piece of fuselage. I think the best way I could describe it, Anderson, is what most people would -- most commercial air travelers would recognize as a round fuselage. The windows were there, and it was so big that you could actually go inside if you wanted to and have cover.

We were joined today, aside from our 12 monitors, by three Malaysian experts and also for the first time today by three Australians, two of which I believe are from the Australian Federal Police. But it was just an astonishing discovery in a very heavily wooded area.

COOPER: At this point, what is the status -- and we use the term "investigators." You're not, obviously, a crash scene investigator. That's not your role. That's not why you were sent there in the first place. You've been doing extraordinary work to get to the site, to try to do your best. But what is the status of - and you talked about some Malaysian investigators there, some Australians. Is that about it right now? I mean is there actually an investigation going on or even is there active searching for the other victims who may still be out there?

BOCIURKIW: Yes. Well, it depends who is here. I mean, for the Australians, they describe their one-day visit here as an assessment mission and it sounds like a kind of precursor to more investigators coming here. In fact, I understand - I just learned there are more Australians coming tomorrow.

As for the Malaysians, Anderson, well, they combed over a lot of wreckage. They took a lot of photographs. We assisted them with that. And I believe they are looking as well for telltale clues. And I think they came -- they took quite an interest yesterday in three pieces of fuselage which we accompanied them to. And it had very unusual markings, kind of like almost machine gunfire type of markings on it, which we had not seen on any of the other many pieces of debris we've discovered.

COOPER: And investigators have said that - I mean international experts that we've talked to have said that is -- those are telltale markings from this kind of a missile, kind of the shrapnel that would be -- come off from the warhead that would have pierced the aircraft itself and brought the aircraft down. In your going out to the crash site, are there -- is there any effort by local rebel groups - I mean are they still in control of the crash site? Are there personnel out there? Or can anybody basically go out to these crash sites now?

BOCIURKIW: Well, they're definitely in control of the area, Anderson. I mean they provide -- they secure our access to the site. Every day they escort us about an hour and a half and we're there in a very short amount of time. And then once we're there, they provide what -- a kind of tight perimeter security. But otherwise, when we're not there, it appears that this site is totally unguarded. Journalists basically have free access of the area. It's quite astonishing given the scope, you know, I think I called it the world's biggest crime scene at the moment. So, no, there's - that's -- from day one our special monitoring mission, that was the first thing we noted is that there's no perimeter security whatsoever.

COOPER: And this is a difficult question. When -- in your times out there, are you still finding victims? Are you still finding remains?

BOCIURKIW: Well, Anderson, I was listening yesterday to your great coverage of what's happening in the Netherlands, and it really hit hard at us because we've been so much focused on our daily job here, finding debris, taking experts. And, you know, where -- I know it's a very sensitive question when it comes to human remains, but -- so what we have - what we've been doing is, aside from treading very carefully, is drawing a wider circle where we go every day. So we include, for example, wooded areas, swamp areas. And, in fact, yesterday, and once again today, we did spot human remains. And what we do is we include that in our daily report to our 57 participating states and the broader world. And we do inform the rebels that this is there. But it's very, very tough when, you know, we discover that and see that.

COOPER: And have you heard of any other efforts by rebels to gather the victims - to gather the victims that you have alerted them to and send them, as they did before on any, you know, on a refrigerated train? Is there any effort like that underway, or is your sense that their -- they see their role as done, and this is going to require others coming in?

BOCIURKIW: Well, I think our sense, Anderson, is that they are prepared to facilitate the transfer of human remains as they did last time. In fact, our first stop today was to that very same train station in Torres to monitor what the situation is. There was no new carriages or anything like that. But one does get the sense that if, you know, new remains are found, that that would be facilitated.

We would -- as the special monitoring mission to Ukraine of the OSCE, of course we'll do everything possible to not only help that transfer but also more experts as they come in here to the Donetsk area, we will facilitate their passage to that crash area. We know it very well by now. We've been there since pretty much day one.

COOPER: And Michael Bociurkiw, I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. And again, I really do appreciate the work that you and the other monitors are doing there. It is a thankless task in many ways. It is a dangerous task and extraordinarily difficult working with all these groups, and I appreciate all that you do. Thank you, Michael.

We're going to introduce you to some of those who were lost when Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 went down, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Disturbing reports are surfacing from the site where Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 crashed. There are reports of looters making off with credit cards, cell phones, other valuables. CNN Money's Cristina Alesci is with us.

What do we know about this?

CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN MONEY CORRESPONDENT: Well, this was a crash site that was littered with personal information, unfortunately. And an area of the world that's known for fraud and scams. So it's not surprising. One of the victims' family members was actually on "The Lead" yesterday saying that there was abuse on the victims' credit card.

COOPER: It's unthinkable, I mean, that the families have to deal with this at a time like this. What do - what are credit card companies saying? I mean what are people supposed to do?

ALESCI: It's very complicated because it really matters where the card was issued, what the bank - who the bank was behind the card that actually issued the credit card, and those regulations and contracts vary by country as to who is liable when it comes to fraud. But before coming on the set, I actually got off the phone with MasterCard, who said that there's zero liability to the victims in places like the Netherlands and U.K. when it comes to that specific credit card. But, obviously, it's going to depend on the company.

COOPER: The idea that families in this time of grief are, you know, have to cancel the credit cards of their loved one, I mean it's just -- it's unconscionable. I appreciate your reporting on it. Thank you.

One week ago today, there were 298 people on board that flight. Victims of a senseless tragedy. Now their family members have to find a way to live on without them.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): The tragedy of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 is not only in the 298 lives that were lost so suddenly, but also in the loved ones left behind, left to cope with their grief. Sanjid Singh Sandhu, known as Bobby (ph), was a flight attendant for Malaysia Airlines. He swapped flights at the last moment onto MH17 so he could get home early. His father told reporters, fate played him an unfair hand. Bobby's wife was also a flight attendant. She narrowly missed going down with MH370 months earlier, switching off that flight at the last minute. She left a message for her husband on FaceBook writing, "we know you are gone and won't be coming back. I wish you a safe journey, and I know you will go to a much better place."

Ten-year-old Miguel Kayler (ph) was on the flight with his older brother, Shaka, who was 19. They were on their way to Bali to visit their grandmother. In the days before the flight, Miguel was nervous, asking his mother, "what happens when a plane crashes" and clinging to her before falling asleep on the night before his trip. Miguel's grandmother says the family is heartbroken and lost. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have to move on. I don't know how, but you

have to because they were incredible kids. I just told you, they were just incredible. We never knew how many lives they touched until now.

COOPER: Twenty-nine-year-old Rob Ayley was traveling in Europe for a month, visiting Rottweiler breeders. He bred the dogs in New Zealand. When news of the flight reached his mother, his mother sent them this message. "Your booked plane has been blown up, literally. So wherever you are, whatever mess you're finding yourself in, we'd be delighted to hear that you missed your flight. We just want to know that you're alive, my darling." Rob leaves behind a wife and two young sons. They posted a statement on FaceBook saying simply, "Rob was our everything. He will live forever in our family."

Willem Huijbers (ph) was moving to Bali to be with an Indonesian woman named Christine (ph). The 53-year-old former Dutch soldier was so excited about his move, he was dancing before the flight while speaking to Christine and her kids on Skype. When Christine was told about what happened, she posted a distraught message on FaceBook that said, "hope you will be fine. Oh, God, please, I beg you."

Nic Norris was on vacation with his family, including his three young grandchildren, Otis, Mo and Evie. Their parents, Anthony and Rehn (ph), wanted to stay in Amsterdam a few extra days, so Granddad Nic, as he was called, was taking the kids back to Australia by himself. The pain for Anthony and Rehn is intense and relentless, they say, a hell beyond hell. In a written message, they say, quote, "our babies are not here with us. We need to live with this act of horror every day, in every moment for the rest of our lives. No one deserves what we are going through. Not even the people who shot our whole family out of the sky."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Unconscionable to think that victims are still out there in those fields in eastern Ukraine.

And for details on how people around the world are showing support for the victims of MH17, please go to cnn.com/impact.

Thanks for watching. Join me tonight at 8:00 p.m. Eastern for another edition of "AC 360" for a full day's wrap-up. Wolf live from Jerusalem starts now.

Wolf.